....Pure Folly...

Wouldn't put u off many of them with exception of Children's list and bumper house.
Think Woodland opera is a real decent sort and am hoping it finishes second or third today and will then win at Christmas!

Rare irish bet for me but just thought that Moylisha Tim could have been slightly overlooked in the Grade 2 hurdle.   Despite the penalty, I have been quite impressed by him and at 10/1, thought he may be the value.

Workrider you are onto something but I think you’ve left out the most likely one of all.

It was almost an unfortunate start to Roll It Out’s career that he made a winning debut over hurdles in Down Royal (much to my personal chagrin as I thumped the runner up). This left him having run against far more experienced rivals for quite a while. He was left find his feet in handicaps and put in two good runs last Spring before a poor run in Punchestown. His seasonal debut was eye catching and he has likely been primed for today’s race with everything looking in his favour. He will take all the beating.

The opening race provides us with a look at two lovely big boats of horses in Potters Point and Woodland Opera. I would say both horses will be better again in a years time over fences but should pay their way in staying novice hurdles. I’ll be looking for a good run (first half dozen or so) from Bobo Mac before he turns up for a maiden hurdle in Limerick at Christmas. He’ll make a better jumper than bumper horse.

Over in Uttoxeter, Jac The Legend seeks to defy a rise from his win in Sedgefield. He has a real gallopers profile (along with an old school UK stayers pedigree) and looks like he is really coming to himself. He takes a drop in trip but the long straight will hopefully compensate. He gets a big weight concession from the main rivals and he can take this contest.

GOOD LUCK YOU LEFT OUT JPS CERT  ROLL IT OUT

COMNEY ISLAND

COGRYHILL  EW SAVER HEATHFIELD 

CROWDED ROOM /LILSHANE

EMIRE OF DIRT  SAVER DROMREA   REV4CAST

ROLL IT OUT TODAY CERT   FINE RIGHTLY IS WEL IN OVER HURDLES  COULD BE GRADE ONE HORSE THIS YEAR

PRIDE OF THE BRRAID /UNDISPUTED EW

GOOD LUCK PUNTERS

THINK 4/1 ROLL IT OUT IS CERT EW  THINK GO OFF 2/1 

UTOXXETER

TARA ROYAL/CARRON SIDNEY/LITTLE BOY BORU

Gary O'Brien is normally spot on with the Elliot stable.  Interestingly in his column he has put up Prince of Scars rather than Roll It Out

Diversion tactics Swardean! Prince of Scars is a smashing horse. Really caught the eye in the ring in Leopardstown the day he won. He actually found himself in the same scenario as Roll It Out in that he had to run against much more experiences horses for the rest of the year after winning on hurdling debut. He was good in Clonmel but it’ll take a fair performance to win as a 5yo off top weight. Roll It Out looks to have plenty in hand off his mark and has much more valuable handicap experience than Prince of Scars.

14 runner handicaps aren’t good each way races Norn. You’d be as well off driving on straight.

Best of Luck TellTheKing

Loyalty card has it all to do against older horses as a four year old filly but I still can resist backing her as she looked so impressive @ Listowel. She was given a lot of quiest runs during the summeer and was very easy in the betting on a few occasions but I think she has a lot in hand off this mark. She relishes soft ground and seems a strong stayer and will hopefully win again today.

J.P. sure helps a lot of trainers to keep there heads above water;he has 5 runners alone in Douvan race, Im not sure if Coney Island can beat the top 2 W/R but he should be placed .

WD workrider that is one in, mine got pestered up front which didn't help him.

Had 2 good bets today, Crown Pleasure @ 10s e/w in the 1:40 and Prince Of Scars @ 6s e/w and 7.8 on here

Russian Bill....... (3.10) should appreciate the extra yardage more than most......... always had this fellow down as a horse that would appreciate a trip over hurdles. Wasn`t able to go with them the last day but was finishing best of all and if anyway near them at the business end he could out battle most of these. Roll It Out, seems to hold a bit back when push comes to shove and is one to take on.

Good man Easy. A pre-race selection. What’s rare is wonderful as they say. Think he’s handicapped to be competitive but may lack the class to collect. Good luck with him anyway.

He has the class to win a race of this nature for sure his early bumper form against decent animals was solid.... I`m sure connections have been disappointed with him, but I saw enough the last day that he can win or close today. I did him e/way @ 6/1

Great tipping workrider a couple of nice winners so far for you,

Riverside City 8/1 nice one W/R DIDN,T BACK IT MYSELF

Wow.... how did that happen....... the two horses that had a bit to find...... (i.e Class, Weight) finished in front of Roll It Out......

You are truly magnanimous Easy - that’s always a sign of a fella that does well punting. Never put out by what others have to say. Well done on also calling the winner as the danger horse in the race. I’m sure you were so afraid of him that your bet was without the winner.

In fairness Russian Bill should have won. If he hadn’t hit the front so early the winner wouldn’t have had anything to get a lead from.

No TTK, u put Bill and Scars away too easily .... how u did I will never know......... And how you taught Roll had so much in hand I will never know...
Nothing wrong backing horses in 14 runner handicaps when you can`t see them out of the first three......

eway??

I said he is a good horse but it would be tough for a 5yo to win a graded handicap off top weight. Especially coming quite soon after his Clonmel and only one previous handicap run. You either fancy a horse or you don’t. I note he didn’t feature in your pre-race comments. Given your obvious bullishness about him post race how he didn’t get a mention i will never know. Similar to how you called Leave At Dawn a dog when I said he was gone by in Killarney. No evidence of it of course. Guessing???? Mmmm????

Do a quick tot on the each way over round on that race. 13-15 runner races are almost always unappealing each way races due to the overrounds. That’s not an opinion, just basic maths. Worked out today if you backed those at the front of the market but unsustainable long term.

To borrow a phrase from Barney Curley, you’re a farce Easy.

A farce....... It kills u that you can`t dominant the forum the way u are trying against other guys that don`t do the racing as much as you..... Just needed to put u down a peg or two.....

Eh, I didn`t say every race I bet e/way in 14-runner handicaps.... I get 6/1 and this particular race I thought he should be in the first three barring mishaps..... not all 14-runner races are the same...... So I make a small profit...... look at all the guys who lost if they went WIN..... Every race is different..... Who is talking long term....... in this contest it looked that a couple had a chance...

Well done Workrider and Easygold. Roll It Out curled up at the death a nice lay, i'd say he went low IR, and almost wiped out 16 of Snaps 4/6 naps (if they all won!) in one bet with Russian Bill...
TTK you were all about Roll It On, Easygold said he was one to take on. You came up short man, don't see how you can call Easygold a farce after that exchange, plus Russian Bill.
Your excuses previously was Easygold never puts up before the race. It's well known his first responsibilty is to his subscribers.
So he put up before the race and showed his true colours. Then you start talking about, oh it was a bad race to bet on mathematically.
Your excuses are weak TTK.
I'm sure there will be days when you will come out on top as well. But that was impressive from Easygold whatever way you slice it.

Ultra impressive RogerGob, a 6/1 shot placed! Where do I sign up!? Phantom tipster.com?

Getting one placed would be like Christmas for you snap. Odds-on shots that can't even get placed? Elltaaf??
I advised it the day before cause it was price rick???
You think your picks are the only ones that are price ricks the day before??
Get into bed snap. Can't even make your own picks???
Sitting around by the phone waiting to be told what to back....
The Derek Thompson of the Irish Forum....
I was out talking to Hugo Palmer today and he says this is a lovely filly.....blah, blah, blah....

Don't see the need for the animosity that creeps in on this forum.  It was a decent thread with people putting forward their views pre-race.  They have been a few winners and a few places.  If a selections at a reasonable price gets within a length of the winner, then it's not too bad a pick imo.  They can't all win.   Where did the gamble on Baraque Style come from?

It`s not all about the selection, but it`s way he put down the other two.......... to say Roll had plenty in hand was WRONG.... way wrong.. (i said he is a nice horse..... Bill not classy enough) Blah, Blah......... TTK..... those are the comments that I hate..... u said Class for a horse not to win a weak handicap...... this horse was able to run close to the classy Tycoon Prince. Just guessing comments I hate.....

Easygold you are a spoofer! Same goes for the majority on here.

Fair point, perhaps betfair should add "IMHO" to the end of every post

Nov 22, 2015 -- 4:37PM, Roger De Bris wrote:

Getting one placed would be like Christmas for you snap. Odds-on shots that can't even get placed? Elltaaf?? I advised it the day before cause it was price rick???You think your picks are the only ones that are price ricks the day before??Get into bed snap. Can't even make your own picks???Sitting around by the phone waiting to be told what to back....The Derek Thompson of the Irish Forum....I was out talking to Hugo Palmer today and he says this is a lovely filly.....blah, blah, blah....

Nov 22, 2015 -- 5:01PM, Bigwillystyle wrote:

Easygold you are a spoofer! Same goes for the majority on here.

Fair enough... good luck to you all......... Merry Xmas

A very good crowd attened today, nice atmosphere and well behaved into the bargain, some nice horses on show,hope fully someone picked out the QUIET ride today, nearly missed it myself it was that sutble . Pity the thread turned into a battle of the egos .

Well done workrider, 2 nice priced winners

Roger I think you’ll find that I commended Easy for putting forward the selection pre-race, gave my view on Russian Bill and then commiserated post race after he had been rather unlucky with the way the race unfolded. He then proceeded to go off and tangentially aftertime the winner and slaughter my selection. I believed Roll It Out was quite well treated, the best handicapped horse in the race. Unfortunately I was incorrect. I spent two hours around Dublin last night drip punting him at 6’s. If I continue to thump 6/1 shots that return 7/2 I’ll be doing just fine. I also won’t be giving up on Roll It Out. I have a nice 2m5f race with Kennedy / Dempsey aboard in Limerick at Christmas in mind for him. Hopefully Frank thinks likewise.

Easy you have an amazing ability to be consistently inconsistent. You were giving it large about not using bumper form to assess jumps races yesterday. Then you throw it out that RB ran close behind Tycoon Prince, conveniently omitting that he just made the running in a four runner crawl where they finished in a heap. Also, you say there’s nothing wrong with punting horses e/w in 14 runner races if you think it will be placed. When the mathematical flaw in this strategy was pointed out you switched to saying no-one was talking about the long term. This is clearly not what you were saying originally. I have seen you regularly pontificate about betting all being about the long term ("Your P/L will be fine” etc. etc.). It’s certainly easier to make money backing 1/2 shots that are available at 5/6 than going each way in 14 runner handicaps. Racing and punting are all about the long run as everyone knows. I certainly won’t be losing any sleep after having a losing day.

Noted a few quiet rides today WR. Didn’t think the Monksfield was great race beforehand but Falcon’s Crest did it well. He’s not one for real deep ground but has plenty of races in him.

Swardean I’m not sure was it much of a punt on Baroque Style. I’d largely contribute it to a consequence of there being no real confidence in anything else. Wouldn’t have backed him myself but he was at least an in form horse from a hot stable at Elliot’s local track.

Goodday for yourself Workrider fair play,Loyalty Card was out fora Gallop IMHO

Thanks for the kind words lads.Noted 3 trainers outside the weighroom cosing up to a prominent bookmaker . It could only happen here.

Pa I have said before that all horses need a sin in a handicap first time. Loyalty Card no different. Agreed wasn't off a yard. Ruby yanking at reins while pretending to give it a slap on d neck! Had 3 schools over hurdles before they decided to win d maiden

No flies on him though, he went and reported that LC "hung right" (post race normal) twas all mockyna but looked terrible to me anyway.
W£asn't it you BWS that kept flagging Riverside City?.

Eh just to comment.... using bumper form for a horse making it`s debut over hurdles is what I was referring to that race...... get it right at least........
Ur at it again......
Comments u make.... are not there.... guessing....... in your opinion...... too much weight... Bill is not classy enough...... Advantage, Supasundae, blah,blah, because of trip and ground, trainer having them ready over Mullins.... Will you stop...........

I have a race for him at Limerick, He will be coming for this and that at Xmas.... Listen to yourself....... And then no end product......

Insufferable would be an understatement

Well done all, very good thread, especially Wonky.

well done workrider nice tipping, as for the 2 gobbers jesus wept

A great thread,

Workrider gets the big winner Riverside City at 8/1 although available at much bigger,he also gives Falcon Crest at 7/2.

Bigwillystyle puts up the first winner Woodland Opera.

An old friend Swardean puts up Moylisha Tim each way at 10/1 followed by Prince Of Scars a winner at 5/1

Yet there is a paean to Easygold from one of his shareholders for putting up Russian Bill at 5/1 not for winning but for being placed.
Easygold then returns crowing and slagging the far more knowledgeable TellTheKing.

TellTheKing is a great poster and does what I like lays out his opinions and leaves others interpret them as they see fit.
Having said that I would disagree vehemently with his statement " doubt if there was much of a punt on Baroque Style "
I would say that was a monstrous punt,this horses form was there for all to see and to move him from 5/1 to 2/1took huge money.
I would imagine that was a strong market in Navan today with a big crowd,that punt took huge money.

Roll It Out is well handicapped but I would question his attitude.

Define...(knowledgeable) that writes two paragraphs and guesses what race its running next........... END PRODUCT is missing........

He picks on guys who know less, and comes macho about his selections....... and then tries to slag off other work done by others.... I spent a good 3hrs on today`s race...... and I for one had not got Roll.... with plenty in hand....... Very knowledgeable alright.... And that is me selecting a horse that had to make-up 8L on Roll Out...... Sure I know nothing.... I`m a farce......

A bully boy...... but he thinks he knows it all...... but doesn`t that is for sure........ In the end it comes down to P/L and I have no problem in that area........

In the end it comes down to P/L and I have no problem in that area

No problem, no problem at all(I'm assuming P/L stands for Pr**k/Lyingc*nt?????........)

You are the captain of both.

Jesus Cal...... I thought u were a good egg........... maybe not....... So the PM wasn`t enough.......... He loves picking on you.... We all know u like the short ones and works 55hrs a week and only has a 5 min study and say that will do for me.... and away with ur selection. So he picks on you..... but you don`t see that..... A bully......

I dunno Wildman. Probably a combination of factors. You couldn’t say that he was set up for today but they may have looked at the race and said it was now or never. I’de be dubious of these supposed on course gambles. I was in Limerick in July when Hash Brown went off 11/8. There was no-one there to punt him and it certainly wasn’t the connections money that sent him off at that price. Then again, Baroque Style returned 2.98 BSP. He win anyway which is all that matters.

No end product Easy? I thumped a horse that almost halved in price and was beaten less than a head. I think he’s still well handicapped, preferably over a shorter trip and sharper track. There’s a very suitable race for him at christmas. I don’t know how much more I can do for you to be honest. You are getting very hung up about one result. Not a dicky bird from you when I put up a 4/6 shot during the week that was there to be taken on. Same thing last week when I was against an 11/10 shot. Yourself and Roger are roaring about taking on a 7/2 shot. Bravo.

The real issue here Easy is that you crave adulation from the other posters. You value your opinion very highly and believe that people are on here to listen to you. Unfortunately, you’ve been found out as a bluffer by a considerable number of posters. I get on very well with Callit. Like myself, he puts up his opinion pre-event for better or worse and has posted plenty of good winners. There’s plenty posters on here (BWS, Pa etc.) that are all sound people and contribute here pre-event. Any criticism (which is fairly rare) I have of any analysis is always given before the race unlike yourself.

There you go again... guessing... Baroque was heavily gambled on and I mean heavily gambled on let me tell u that for a fact....... But you think it was not set up today...... He has raced over further in the past, and previous running styles of his rivals are hold-up performers.... Eh, let me tell you again.......... G.E and co..... given a 5L lead by hold-up performers..... I think u can say it was set for him today.
You thumped a horse half price....... and the two horses u don`t like finish in front of ur`s...... ur so called well-in horse struggled when push came to shove. Ah and now ur saying a drop in trip and a flat track....... Jesus....do u think I would come on and select my selection if it was 2m6f at Listowel..... No.... I wouldn`t... but it was 2m7f at Navan....
Listen to me I say very little tbh... I dont know where u are getting that from...... But It`s you... who thinks urself is the man..... with ur belittling lesser guys..

And by the way.. Bravo for ur price change...... give urself a big pat on the back.......... I change markets in my sleep.

^ The Irish Ronnie Pickering.

It`s ur way of putting down horses........ it`s arrogant and listen to me style..... Tell The King knows more than you style..... Would you stop.....

PMSL I change markets in my sleep
'I`m All You Need (2m Novice Chase 2.45) 6/1,11/2...... it will be 7/2'   SP = 7/1
'Have a few bob on Whiskey Galore 12/1 2.30........... it may go and try make-all u may get a trade out of it too at much lower odds......' SP = 14/1

There is only one way you are moving markets gobber

Exactly - I’m guessing. Hence why I had no bet in the race. I wouldn’t have even watched the race if I didn’t have a friendly connection to one of the runners. As a rule, don’t like to back horses where i could buy them for what would be my average stake. There’ll be the occasional departure from this strategy but it’s quite rare.

When I lock in on a horse and have a proper bet (not like the piddly ones you’ve posted recently) there’s no guessing involved. Didn’t work out today but I’m up several months salary in the past week as it is so i don’t mind. My record on here is only a small part of my betting but it stands up to the closest of scrutiny when taken on a long term review.

TTK, drop us an auld tip will ya ffs, I'm struggling!

I'm murder for conspiracies at times when i know it logically it is very probably coincidence. It was one way traffic in the betting in the Baroque race he went from 5.5 to 3.2 very quickly in the minutes to the off. What a soft lead he got,about 6Ls and nearly 20L to the backmarker, he set a slow pace and wasn't challenged(Vinnies supreme sat a L off alright) he had such an easy all he had to do was quicken between 3 and 2 out which he did. His previous running style included 2 in rears, ch ldrs and a mid div, a complete change of plan today.
Easy i think people are generally fair enough on here,i certainly wouldn't have a bad word to say against Callit and TTK in particular, bit blown away with the recent threads,they are very good in the main, speaking for myself it is like going back to school with some points brought up,long may they continue.

So u lock in on a horse... who u know what`s a flat track, and maybe a shorter trip.......... But u think I`m a bluffer so what I say means nothing... but the thing is I know the form as well..... And I knew today was dodgy for Roll at this venue..... but how you said he has plenty in hand against Russian at this venue I will never know....... If Mr Egan didn`t panic over the far-side he would of won by 2L using energy at the wrong time. But hey I know nothing..........

Regards to Roll.... yes he is well able to win a race, but I will always have a saver up @ around 1.5 he does have an attitude problem when push comes to shove.
Regards to your punting, fair play you can afford to put that much on a horse...... Just because I bet lower than that does not mean I`m a bluffer and can read form....... Once again your arrogant and belittling people....

To be fair Pa, I didn`t have a bad word to say about Cal... until he locked horns with Snap and the Wasp....... I love a person who studys the racing as much as myself..... And its clear  TTK does his homework........ but he joined in many threads I started and just tried to shoot it down........ I`m sure he is a sound fellow but it comes across a bit much....

The market was reasonably strong there today,One of the few days were the Northern lads like a punt and are acommadated .Plenty of winners to be found on here when we get down to the nitty gritty and stop the back stabbing , let the Irish forum be the leader in racing threads and we'll all benefit.

Hi Workrider, yeah there was huge money for BS.... are u going to Fairyhouse on Sunday........ it will be fun to meet up

Get last weeks losses back on Tafteesh 2.00 Chelmsford tomorrow gobber, classy sort much too good for this lot

The next few days likely to be fallow enough Ozy. I have an eye on one in Thurles on Thursday. If it run’s I’ll PM you. Otherwise I’m sure there’ll be something between Fairyhouse & Newbury at the end of the week.

I locked in on him in the belief that the trip would suit. As I’ve said in several previous posts, I called it wrong this time. However, I learned something about the horse and retain my belief that he is very well treated when there is less an emphasis on stamina. Despite your continual misrepresentations, I never dismissed Prince of Scars (who has long been a horse I've loved since his debut win) or Russian Bill (who I said was handicapped to be competitive but didn’t think he had as much going for him as the winner). I just expected Roll It Out to be the best handicapped horse in the race and win (I could make the tenuous argument that I was correct if you take the claims on the front two into consideration but he was beat which is all that matters).

Easy I have no doubt you can read form. It’s the continual after timing on here that has caused all the disharmony. There’s more ways to punt than just your way but you have dismissed several posters methods on here. When i’ve taken you to task some of the responses have been far from robust. There has to be some reason why you attract the ire of far more posters than i do despite me being allegedly an arrogant bully?

Come on TTK, if I was a bluffer you would see through it..... Regards to others I feel they mistake my input over the years.......

Wasp I`m going through that card as u speak..... I will give an opinion on ur selection if u want when I go through it

Jesus Wasp....... I thought u had a 10/1 shot for me....... 15/8 in a nursery handicap, nearly two months off the track, and makes his polytrack debut....... Not for me I`m afraid...... too much guess work on the form....... But I will be keeping an eye on Pickapocket, has caught the eye a few times and may need further and could be an interesting 3-y-o over middle distances next season, but wouldn`t be shocked if he stayed on late to go close if they went too fast early....

Ozy I’ve found you a winner. Epsom Day in Chelmsford on Thursday. Should have won on nursery debut earlier this week but got a dose of a ride from Tom Queally. He is well treated off 64 and has plenty of scope for improvement. Hasn’t run on the surface but don’t harbour any great concern, he’s a grinder. The obvious caveat is if Queally is booked again. Hopefully this won’t be the case.

I might have a handful of AW bets during the winter. This is going to be one horse worth following.

Saw that Epsom Day myself lto, Queally wasn't at his best on him. Gosden horse as well so that takes any impropriety  out of the equation you'd think! Thanks for flagging him TTK, will be on as well.

youd need a 10/1 shot gobber after this weeks picks but youll just have to lump on this crisford beast instead
ya was on that epsom day the last day, a ride of the highest level of incompetence will go again if he runs

Have a saver on Jassur...... I think Oisin taught it was a 6f race at WOLVES back at Chels.... different story......

Eh Wasp.... it was a good week tbh........ but 15/8 shots not for me.... good luck with that...

I only happened to see the race Wasp without knowing anything about the horse. Went back and watched his qualifying runs then.

He was a bit slow away and got chopped so could forgive Tom for getting a bit behind as it’s tough to make ground on the continuous loop after the stand there. However, he left the horse completely out of its ground with a half mile to go and then dithered about where to go up the straight. With natural progression it’s difficult to see him not comfortably surpassing his current mark.

Ya the indecision at the top of the straight was a killer poor from an experienced jockey,  i read elsewhere that he has retainer for owner so probably onboard again this week

Nice card tomorrow at kempton interesting maiden hurdle a few horses involved that have previously been touted on here

Cheers TTK.

Yeah Wasp - lovely card for a Monday. Henderson has always targeted these weekday Kempton meetings.

The maiden hurdle is full of nice horses. The one I'll be watching most closely is Theos Charm. Shaped very well in bumpers and is the type to be underrated due to connections. Tough race to bet into today but definitely one to keep an eye on.

great tipping wr...

wildmanfromborneo

TellTheKing is a great poster and does what I like lays out his opinions and leaves others interpret them as they see fit.

Spot on, the way it should be....

You're correct Wasp - Queally has been riding all his horses. Only recalled afterwards the good filly the owner has with Fanshawe.

Theos Charm made a lovely hurding debut with Kempton. A big positive is that he seems a natural jumper. He ran with the choke out and was in front way too soon. The experience (including being bumped and sandwiched) will do him the world of good. After being passed he boxed on well behind two decent looking types. Will take beating in any maiden hurdle next time.

Another short priced favourite unsighted Wasp...lump on this Crisford beast...get last weeks losses back??
There's a recurring theme with all these picks....I'll leave you to figure it out.
Well done again Easygold.....again....

It looked a fairly deep race Tell The King, and yes it was a good performance by the horse you mention. The negative being the trainer though, even though the horse looks a sure fire winner next time, when Nicholas saddles one up, theres no way it can be a certainty in any race.

No complaints from me ran poor, thought it was much better than 80 horse on salisbury race
Think you will find small profit on the few selections i have posted on here so dont know where you are coming from rogergob ,typical bitter stuff from the rebel lapsy on other thread
Would be  great roger if you started contributing to forum with anything other than promoting easygobs tipping line

Just watched some of the kemptin replays nice run from giffords, thought jps was eyecatching too
Vaniteux looked a natural over fences and looks a decent prospect for arkle presumably

I wouldn't disagree with your assessment of the trainer mincer. After all, Gifford hasn't had a winner over jumps this season. This is a fair bit of a horse though. Has the looks, the page and the form of a good horse. Can't see the horse being ruined at least in the short term. Hopefully the next day is a quite little race in Huntingdon or somewhere. Will be disappointing if he doesn't progress into 130-140 horse.

Hes a goodish horse is right, no doubt about it. But there are trainers who just dont inspire and Gifford is certainly one of them.