A J Martin

thomas edison might have troubled him if he pinged the last?

May have troubled him, but I'm sure the winner would have found enough. And who trains him? And the 3rd? So without that fall, this trainer would have had the 1 2 3 in this, supposedly, most competitive of handicaps...... I'll say no more.

Does he secretly train Max Dynamite aswell???

All joking aside Quick Jack has been let run on his merits for quite a while (even though his hurdle rating was well protected) .... which is more than can be said for stablemate Tudor City. How the handicapper felt the need to drop him a pound after his last run is beyond me. He was only getting going inside the last half furlong when Fran immediately sat up on him for fear of being any more eyecatching than he already had been. I just thought it was a very strange decision by the handicapper to actually drop this very young , very well bred individual in the handicap.   I'll be shocked if he's hasn't rattled up a sequence by the end of the year probably starting with that bicycle race tomorrow.

i looked at that race a few times..wasnt that eye catching?!?!

Didnt think he was in the slighest bit eyecatching either.  However i did back him yesterday at 6/1 because it was easy to see him being much shorter.  Would have thought this horse would need another 4F at least to show its best on breeding.  Tongue Strap on first time.

i have him backed ew at 6/1 as well.but im not a bit confident..i backed it first for the same reason as you,but looked at its breeding after  and out of a commanche run mare as well?  but surely aj must think he has the gears for a mile?(surely there a few same grade 1m4f races this week?!..and the owner gears his horses for galway so thats another plus i guess..

he's done it again

fair dues..i gotta say i never thought he was up until the line!!

Prescott should employ Berry. Yokes that should win 5 lengths will only win by a short head.

I have long complained about the handicapper,this is a perfect example of him just handicapping by ratings.

He knows the trainer has medals for this yet he rewards him by dropping his horse 3 pounds and then 1 pound.
Did he not see the horse deliberately miss the break on both occasions,probably not as he doesn't seem to review races.

Very valid point wildman

Handicapper should hang his head in shame , first four home in the Tudor City race covered by half a length but what about the fourteen others spread out behind them ?

Wildman is spot on. The handicap system rewards those who cheat. You would have thought the handicapper would have used a bit of savvy and left the horse alone considering improvement was obviously forthcoming, especially as he was running on well late on last time out are being very slowly away.

And i'll say it again kavvie and bigwillystyle..... staying on last time out after a very slow break in EYECATCHING FASHION.

Tudor City will never be a worldbeater though his future is nh and that may be better.
Anyone interested in Pyromaniac today and haven't backed it yet,PP are giving back as a free bet if 2nd/3rd to 50,check t+c's.

100 per cent Arkle.

Whatsforuwontgobyu is another joke here.

The first thing the handicapper should have asked himself was why the two runs in maidens in 4 days,next question why did they drop him back 4 furlongs.
His final question would be why run him in a 7 furlong maiden.

His conclusion should be I won't give him a mark until he tries.

It's just not funny is it? Is there ANYBODY in "charge" who is prepared to tackle this problem? Martin, McManus and Berry.... Good luck. Continuous ruination of the game.

i was on a poker table with o'brien,he doesn't take criticism very well regarding his handicapping.

^Does Noel O'Brien do the flat handicapping now as well? Always thought it was Gary O'Gorman on the flat? .
That is a very good point Wildman,no mark til effort.

read the opening post m8.

Go way ya chancer,you haven't a clue,it is obvious you were referring to the 5.00 winner.

Of course, there is a simple solution to this. You give a Martin horse a "mark", and then you lob on 10lbs for good measure....

you are reaching there old pa,who do you think should take over the cork footballers?

Gary O'Gorman and Mark Bird on the flat Pa...tbh I've always found them to be a fair minded lot and that's all they

can be...there not MI5 agents or Sherlock Holmes type sleuths looking for some sort of plot in every race...they

can only rate whats in front of them with a degree of common sense.

I think you have to be careful what you wish for...imagine a world where every horse was accurately

handicapped!....Christ I can't think of anything more dull.

Put your hands up Rat,you got captured,erra stick Jason Ryan in for all i care.

" a degree of common sense "

If you handicap solely by ratings common sense goes out the window,you just press a button on your computer and there is your handicap.
This is the lazy way to do it,you don't have to review races.

If a man kept on fooling you,you would think you would be wary of him.
All the signs were there,the two quick runs in maidens,the descending distance and the final run in a maiden over a totally inadequate distance.
This is the tried and trusted past yet the handicapper falls for it every time.

He falls for it because he is lazy and is addicted to ratings.
He should have said I cant rate the horse.

What kind of rise do ye reckon he will get now? 2 stone perhaps?

Would be surprised if he got that much,they don't like admitting their error.

The old adage springs to mind " if in doubt handicap them out " pity the handicapper never heard of it.

He doesn't fall for it because he's 'lazy' Wildman but he has to treat every trainer the same way...tbh a rating of

59 was plenty for what the horse had achieved on his three runs which suggests a 'degree of common sense' was in

fact used....this is nothing new btw it's always been Handicapper v Trainer and tbh it's a poor trainer that

doesn't try to get a horse as lenient a rating as possible.....what makes me laugh is that the same people that

criticise Tony Martin would put the likes of Vincent and Darkie up on a pedestal!....I can guarantee if the two of

them were around today they would be 'vilified'....

Fair comment JR that you have to be careful what you wish for.
Tomorrow sees another in the green and gold(not Martin) that got the job done last time and made a dope of the handicapper.Russian Roulettes method was to run him over the totally wrong trip(5f-7f) got a couple of goes in maiden hurdles(haha) and hoses up after reaching the basement mark of 47. Do i think an 11lb penalty is fair? Not at all,very lenient and my idea of a revised mark would have to put him out of 47-65's

RR - He is still only a child but last year was clueless! . He is almost 17hh and his run at Gowran the last day was the first time he had ever shown any spark. I was hoping he would improve with the step up in trip and he can step up again and should have no problem staying a mile and six. He just got away with today's ground. Charles O'Brien, trainer.

You train winners and you get rewarded.

Thanks Catchme,i'd be a bit more cynical myself though, i would accept to an extent he has a bit of a gomby look on him but the running of it 1st time over 12f worked the magic, Fair play to Con for finding it's trip

Hello Gant,hope you're well.

I'm flying Pa. How are you keeping?.

Fair of me ar$e Gant,not a good Galway but it looked a lot worse at one stage, over to the capitol of the world(Cork) later in the month and really looking forward to that.

I see Sunday's winner gets 24 lbs.

Any idea how many pound tudor city went up Tolmi?

Excuse my ignorance, but where do you see what hikes winners get?

There you go Jimeen.........http://info.hri-racing.ie/Content/RAS/Ratings/Microsoft_Word__FlatRatings.pdf


24lbs!.....fck me....

Thank you JR.

No Problem Jimeen....you can also get them on the turf club site.

Tudor City went up 4.As JR said go into the Hri website and follow the link on the left hand side.

Thanks lads,

I've never seen 24lb , he didn't like that.
He gave Tudor City the benefit of the doubt with just the 4lb as it was only a head.

The handicappers leniency to Tony Martin continues and he is still as lazy as ever.

Everyone who watched Laganores run in Galway saw a horse getting a poor ride and being dog unlucky but not our handicapper,he didnt watch the race just pressed a button on his trusty computer and came up with ratings

Having fooled the handicapper twice in Galway already luck went against him so to be sure to be sure the handicapper drops Laganore a pound.

Does Martin deserve such kindness,is it deliberate or just laziness,its just laziness he doesn't review races,he doesn't know who trains them,he doesn't know the distance they run over,just rattles off ratings.

As mentioned on another thread, she was rated 71 going into Galway but ran from out of the handicap. She has actually been raised three pounds for the Galway run.

"he doesn't know who trains them"

Handicapping horses based on who trains them, pedigree etc. cannot be the basis for a handicapping system. It's fundamentally flawed and doesn't stand up to critical analysis.

There may well be questions to be asked about the requirements for a qualifying run but it's not easy to come up with workable solutions.

I would have said the 24lb raise given to the JP horse was harsh given it was a bike race when Byrnes mare blew the start and never got involved.

Wildman , if you were as knowledgable about ratings as you profess to be you would have noticed that every handicapped horse ( including Laganore ) dropped a pound recently or were you too lazy to notice ?

Give credit to Martin , he is some operator , spent a couple of years working on getting his French import Heartbreak City right and got his reward at York yesterday - no skullduggery in getting him handicapped on his occasion as he came here with his French rating.

Laganore is undoubtedly well handicapped given how unlucky she was at Galway but raising her ahead of horses who beat her there is not handicapping practice as I understand it nothing to do with laziness or robotic use of computers .

I'm not knowledgeable on ratings,I'm not a professional ,I'm not paid but I am able to observe.

The handicapper is paid,that's his job and he isint doing it.

Martin is a great operator and consistently makes a fool out of the handicapper,if it were me I would take some evasive action.

Handicapping is also about opinion,these handicappers have no opinion just a dull formula that should render them unemployed as the tea lady could do what they are doing.

Handicapping is an informed opinion based on a system harnessed over decades. For every exploited anomaly rating there are plenty more horses handicapped out of races. It's impossible to perfect a system so open to manipulation.

The fact that a handful of trainers still only seem able to train their string accordingly doesn't say much for the talent levels in the training ranks.

Tony declared six horses for the Ebor with only one of them with a chance of getting in but he is smart enough to know that he gets a full rebate on all the others entry fees etc , he knows all the angles and no handicapping system as TTK says would outsmart him. I would have thought a 24lb penalty was a fairly unambiguous message for Martin from the handicapper - Wildman tell us more about this 'dull formula'the handicapper supposedly operates and how you would treat Martin if you were handicapper ?

If the handicapper watched the races Whatwontgobyyou. etc he would have seen a horse not trying running close races over decreasing distances,he then could have refused to give him a mark.

The dull formula is the literal translation of form which his computer does for him,no reviewing of the race.
If a horse is beaten 3 lengths that's it,ease of victory deemed irrelevant.

If a handicapper sees someone at it you use the old maxim " if in doubt handicap them out "

The JP horse had four runs on the level prior to Galway with the best three for handicapping purposes as follows:

4/10 (beaten 10 lengths) over 7f
8/16 (beaten 14 lengths) over 12f
12/18 (beaten 20 lengths) over 13f

While the world knew that the horse was being handicapped if you stopped giving out marks for horses with those maiden runs handicaps would be empty. The handicapper also had to ignore the horses pedigree, ownership and trainer.

I know what your saying but it bares little correlation to the realities of handicapping.

This was so blatant it was easy for him to say I'm not giving him a mark.

My point he is not looking at the races,not observing the trainers.

Martin over does it,if I was the handicapper I would pay special attention to his horses and ones from Ballingarry.

That Galway race was manifestly unfair on all the other horses in it,unfair on their owners and run for the benefit of the chosen few.

Wildman , I think that is a good maxim alright but I doubt the computer churned out 8.5 lengths equals 24lbs in the case of the Galway winner with all due respect , are you serious when you say ease of victory is not factored into a reassessment ???

That Galway winner with the long name did not get a handicap mark after its third start and had to run for the fourth time so presumably he was asked to run again by the handicapper. A notice appeared in the Irish Racing Calendar a couple of months ago which I was surprised did not attract more media comment -I have cut and pasted it below. The problem with the Galway winner was presumably that it had already run twice ( first two starts ) around the distance of the Galway handicap - Tony really does think of everything proving TTK's point I think !


Turf Club
NOTICE
Flat Handicapping
1. The Stewards of the Turf Club wish to give
notice that the Flat Handicappers, in
exercising their discretion under Rule 66(ii)
of the Rules of Racing on whether they
can reasonably assess a horse before
handicapping it in a race, may exclude a
horse with a current handicap rating from a
handicap where the distance of some or all
of its qualifying runs for a handicap mark is
considerably different from the distance of
the proposed handicap.
In exercising this discretion, they will have
regard to all relevant circumstances
including;-
· whether or not it was practically
possible for a horse to run at or
near the distance of the
handicap race,the time of the year and the
availability of races to run in to
meet this requirement
· the age and profile of the horse
· whether the horse had already
competed in handicaps at a
different distance or is entering
handicap company for the first
time
· the distance of its most recent
start or starts

Fair points.

If the handicapper wasn't satisfied with his first three runs how could he justify giving him a mark when Martin had the liathroidi to run him over the patently inadequate 7 furlongs.

Did the handicapper not read the Turf Club notice,did he not find the 7 furlongs strange,how could he be so easily fooled.

His hand was forced a little by the fourth run. He got a genius ride by Fran. Broke jaw out the stalls then immediately hustled the horse wide on the outside the whole way. While the purpose of the run was obvious given he had disputed the lead turning in and finished so close the handicapper was almost obliged to give him a mark.

As the horses best run came over seven furlongs he also couldn't object to the horse returning to longer trips for a handicap run. He basically turned the above notice on it's head.

I got caught for a good bit when he ran Golden Spear dead up the Curragh before Galway. It hasn't detracted at all from my admiration of Martin's skill at playing the game. Pound for pound he is arguably second only to Willie as a trainer of horses in my book and a street clear when it comes to placing them.

Liathroidi indeed , more like two fingers for not handicapping him after 3 runs !
The world and his wife knew what was going on ( including the handicapper ) with the 7f lark but he was ridden prominently before fading on that occasion ( not out the back the whole way )so you could not say he didnt try as such although it was another form of non trying ( running over the wrong distance ) which the Notice seeks to address .

The Notice does appear to allow consideration of the most recent distances the horse has run over to be taken into account and I suspect the Handicapper might take a different view with a horse of this profile in future even if he has run over the longer distance in his first two runs.

Wildman ,I do agree with you that disgruntled connections of also rans at Galway are entitled to  be pissed off , surely the Notice reflects the view of the Handicapper and the Turf Club that there should be more constraints on abusing the system in order to get handicapped without it being possible as TTK says to have any system absolutely foolproof and perfect ?

As stated before, when this character's horses are eligible for a mark, you give them one and lob on 10lbs, for the obvious reasons.
Surely someone "in charge" can pull him aside and tell him to "behave" shall we say.
Failing that, just take away his licence. The game is hard enough without having to contend with this malarkey. Total guesswork when he has a runner. You just have to leave the race alone.

He's playing the same game as everyone else, just far better than anyone else. The issue lies with the authorities, not the trainers.

Generally it's also not hard to figure out when Martin, Byrnes or Elliot are going to strike with one if you are paying close enough attention.

Finglas thinks Tony should tell the world as his wife his plans ,he fails to understand that keeping the handicapper in the dark is part of the game ,poor lad your be better off having his few shekels on the bingo

Is there a translator in the house?

Is he playing the same game as everyone else.

I don't back his horses as a rule but was watching events last night.
Laganore rock solid at around 1.9 for ages,then the drift and it was spectacular all the way out to 2.6.

You kind of knew in your heart and soul she would miss the break.

A great result for the stable,fortunes won and punters burnt,punters that will not back his horses again giving them a free run

When I say game I mean the handicap system.

Was otherwise engaged last night so didn't see the evening racing and can't comment on Laganore. There may well have been something fishy but generally speaking looking at the exchanges until the last ten minutes before a race is a waste of time. Near race time is when the market is informative. I thought she'd win but wasn't prepared to back her at odds on as a filly carrying that weight. Maybe others thought similar?

Fair points.

It seemed a spectacular drift to me,it wasn't reflected in the on course market another point.

Laganore behaved badly just before the start,Meyler got off her and she was reluctant to be loaded,it was fair odds on she would be a bit slow away i thought. Not sure of the drift timeframe but that could go some way towards it,a poor enough run in any case and her antics at the start put a question mark in future races for her and would be a last minute job imo.

Every trainer has or should have a plan for his horses , getting them h/capped is a skill few are better at than Tony . Least we forget in their early days M.V.and a few others made the same journey ,a certain TITLED train across the pond was lauded for years for his ability to get his horses well h/capped . Sadly for us punters it'll always be that way .

Was this character hauled in by the Bellewstown "stewards" tonight, after the "running" of Fill Your Hands in the 2nd??? AND IF NOT, WHY THE ***K NOT??????? Drifts like a barge from 1-2 to 4-5, never put in the race with a chance of winning and trots on to finish 2nd!! And what the ***k was Cooper doing? Why is he party to this carry on with this chancer??? He rode it like he had 2 broken arms!!!!
For a young man with the Irish jumps scene at his feet, it makes no sense. It was as blatant as you like, as the betting showed. HOW HAS THIS PERSON STILL GOT A TRAINERS LICENCE???