Rule 4 Query

It's the price when withdrawn and you're correct should be 15 cents R4 as Boyles expanded to 9/2 at 16.52 and market suspended at 17.00.

That's based on Boyles accepting oddschecker as a verifiable source which of course it should be.

I have an ongoing dispute with PP which will be hitting these pages shortly if not resolved,purely disgraceful behaviour from the parasites.

Sorry TTK but not long in and haven't been watching racing but the race was off at 17.00.

Is part of the dispute so whether it was actually an early price or a live show?

I am not sure what time the betting came through and what time the withdrwal was?

They seem to try and apply Rule 4 any way they like.

Rule 4 always applies to the price of the horse at time of withdrawal.

The nadir was reached when the firm now in administration started pricing reserves and then applying Rule 4 when they didnt get in.

Boyles Rules, should be up on a board in shop.

RULE 4 DEDUCTIONS
1) What are Rule 4 deductions?
Rule 4 deductions are made to the Returns you receive back when the horse you have backed wins or is placed. These deductions are only made when one or more horses are withdrawn from the race after you have placed your bet. Rule 4 deductions are normally only made in cases where you have taken a price on your horse. Rule 4 deductions are only made from the Starting Price of a horse when a horse is withdrawn just before the race and there is no time to start or ‘reform’ a new market. Does not apply to Ante Post bets and backers of the withdrawn horse will have their stakes refunded
2) Why are Rule 4 deductions made?
Rule 4 deductions are made because when a horse is withdrawn from a race it becomes easier for the other runners to win. Put simply, each horse in the race will have one less to beat so it is more likely that it will win. Therefore an amount of money is taken out of winnings to balance the effect of the withdrawn runner. If bookmakers did not make Rule 4 deductions from winnings then in some cases customers would be able to back all the horses in one race and make money whichever horse won!
For example, suppose there are three horses in a race. Horse A is 1/3 favourite, horse B is 3/1 and horse C is 12/1. Now suppose horse A is withdrawn and there are no deductions made to the prices of horse B and C. In this case if you placed €1 on horse B and €1 and horse C you would win more than the €/£2 staked whichever horse won. If horse B won you would win €/£4 and if horse C won you would win €13. Therefore Rule 4 deductions are made to take into account the additional advantage a customer has when a horse is withdrawn from a race.
3) How much are Rule 4 deductions?
The amount taken from your winnings depends on how likely the horse or horses that were withdrawn from the race were to win. For example, if the favourite in a race is withdrawn it will make it much easier for the second favourite to win. However, if an outsider is taken from the race then it will be still difficult for the second favourite to win as it still needs to beat the favourite. The exact amount taken out of your winnings is based on the last price of the withdrawn selection, in that market, at the time it is withdrawn from the race. This is because the price equates to its chances of winnings. Therefore the shorter its price, the bigger its chance of winning and the larger the Rule 4 deduction is. The table below shows the amount of the deductions based on the price of individual selections. These deductions are the amount of money that is taken from each €/£1 in winnings or returns. Hence if you win €10 and there is a 10c Rule 4 deduction you will only receive €9 winnings.
Price at withdrawal Deduction Price at withdrawal Deduction

How can they argue with that?

Oddschecker as the time of withdrawl of shin a vee as 16.20 at which time the rest of the books took shin a vee out but Boyles seem to have made a mess of it and expanded the price to 9/2 at 16.52.

Plenty of the book cut the the price after the withdrawl increasing the R4 - The little barstewards and honest Paddy managed to get a 0.25 R4 for most of the afternoon,the filthy parasites.

No DJ, this bet was placed this morning.

The staff mentioned a 20c R4 when I handed in docket. I said the price was 9/2 at withdrawal and advised it should be 15c. He didn’t know the R4 deductions table but checked same and agreed that 15c should apply to 9/2. His screen showed 9/2 last show and 20c Rule 4. Given the inconsistency he then called head office. The argument from there was consistent for three separate calls he made (i.e. R4 applied based on price of Shin A Vee when bet placed this morning). The other staff member then made a call on spec and simply asked what was price of Shin A Vee at time of withdrawal. She was told 4/1 (obviously different to what they were seeing on screen and what I saw on oddschecker).

I was in a rush so cashed the docket (actually paid @ SP as this worked out better than the 20c R4 on 11/10) without arguing further. In fairness the staff knew I was right but couldn’t do much more. I will make sure I have plenty of time for a fight when I cash the other one.

Looking at oddschecker, Boyles went from 4/1 to SP at 16.18 when the others went SUSP. Then they went 4s again 2 min later and then 9/2 for 8min before they suspended. Looks to me like someone pressed the wrong buttons and they'll claim they were never 9/2.
You're best bet is to take a picture of the history on oddschecker and take it with you, but if I'm honest I don't fancy your chances.

I had a row in one of their shops during the snooker over a price they said had changed. Firstly she handed me out the money in a bundle without telling me it had changed thinking I wouldn't count it, was a double with funny odds, 7/5, 15/13 can't remember.
I placed it at 7.05 just as the evening session was starting. The price actually changed 1 min later at 7.06 according to oddschecker. After 2 calls to head office She told me it changed first at 5.20 and then at 6.50.
I took the money at the time but rang customer service after I got home and could check the price myself, I still had the oddschecker page open from the night before. They called me back and told me to go back in for my e11. The bitch in the office then made me write out the docket again and left me standing at the counter for half an hour while she had to go searching for my docket.

Sharp practice from spoils

I must say that I do quite a bit of betting in the morning and from my experiences , the rule 4 is always calculated in the way it has been by Boils. The rule 4 is taken at exact time you had the bet. Sometimes it works in your favour and other times it doesn't . The thing I always do is jot down the prices of anything 14 or under when you have your bet , that way there can be no ambiguity .

The last price on oddschecker was 9/2. This was also confirmed in the office by the staff member. The first time anyone mentioned it was 4’s at the time of withdrawal was when the 4th phone call was made to head office.

It may be the case Jimeen. The only time I recalled a similar situation was in a bet with BV where the R4 was applied based on the price at withdrawal. I think the way spoils work it leaves unnecessary confusion though. Consider the following examples:

a) Shin A Vee drifts to 6/1 prior to withdrawal - Would they apply 15c or 10c R4? I think we both know the answer.

b) One of the outsiders which was 16’s at the time of bet is backed into 14’s prior to being withdrawn - Are they entitled to apply a 5c R4 if they are working off the prices at the time bet was struck? Again, i think theres only one way they would go.

Sorry the first example is incorrect. I mean’t to say if Shin A Vee was backed into 3’s. Would they apply a 25c R4 (based on time of withdrawal) or 20c (based on 4/1 at time of bet)?

From my experiences and again I can only speak from those , the rule 4s are based on the prices the horses were at the exact time you struck your bet, I would say that if a horse was backed from 16/1 to 8/1 and refuses to load, then there would be no rule 4 if you backed something else in the morning . More often than not it does work against you all the same , as it is a practice that is designed to favour the bookmaker.

I actually think they would only take 20 cent, but then again I may be wrong.

I guess time will tell when I collect the other docket. Based on what Winsamsoon extracted from their won rules the baseline for R4 is supposed to be price at time of withdrawal.

Getting a small bit sick of these bookies. Two weeks ago I was in a PP and noticed the betting for the Munster football game between Clare and Limerick. The handicap betting was Clare (-1) 6/5 and 5/6 Limerick. Clare were 4/6 on the straight market so thought the handicap would have been 10/11 take your pick. Backed Clare anyway with the price checked and signed by the staff member. Clare won by two so went to collect. Was told there was an error with the original prices which should have been flipped. Paid on Clare @ 5/6. Now I knew the price was slightly generous but hardly so far off that I questioned whether there was an error with their screens. No movement from head office though. I expect i wasn’t the only one who had this problem.

thats rubbish Jimeen, the rule 4 is taken by the vast majority at the price was at time of withdrawal....again sometimes works in favour, sometimes not.