The Drifters

Is this the Offician first Quuuuuuaaaarrrr thread of the week?  Clocked in at 11.16 AM Monday morning.  (delayed by late night at the Golf)

**********************************************

Bronski Beat – Small Town Boy


You leave in the morning
With everything you own in a little black case

Alone on the platform
The wind and the rain
On a sad and lonely face

Mother will never understand
Why you had to leave
For the answer you seek
Will never be found at home
The love that you need
Will never be found at home

Pushed around and kicked around
Always a lonely boy

You were the one
That they'd talk about around town
As they put you down
And as hard as they would try
They'd hurt to make you cry

But you'd never cry to them
Just to your soul
No you'd never cry to them
Just to your soul


***********************************

A stirring portrait of being bullied and cast out by family members due to one’s homosexuality.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xuz94ZIPfJk

Why do you associate bullying with Gay marriage.

That Bronski Beat song could equally apply to a brother and sister.

Do I have this right? 

Are you advocating that brothers and sisters should be allowed marry?  On the basis that if you allow the Quuarss the right, the whole institution is fecked anyway and you might as well open it up to siblings and ladbradors and the like?

Ifs supposed to be about equality.

We are constantly being told " if two people love each other " but what if they are sister and brother,why should they not be included in this new definition of marriage.

Lets use the up to date term...GSA (Genetic Sexual Attraction)

Genetic Sexual Attraction happens in up to half of all situations in which pubescent or post-pubescent genetic relatives meet for the first time or reunite after having been separated since at least one of them was a child.

Most people are attracted to people who look like them. Who looks more like you than a close genetic relative? The Westermarck Effect overrides this in most (not all) circumstances in which one person raises another or they grow up in the same home. Close genetic relatives who were separated won't have the Westermarck Effect countering a powerful physical attraction. Add in emotional and psychological factors involved in reuniting with a lost family member, and you have something extremely powerful.

Its an excellent point, Borne, I think you have may have grounds for suggesting the inclusion

Wildmanfromborneo , what a cad you are , you reel poor Norma in day after day , she can't wait , then you strip her of her dignaty ..The poor thing is on edge all day after it , please take pity and do the right thing by her ...

Plenty of people out there agree with you

http://marriage-equality.blogspot.co.uk/

http://marriage-equality.blogspot.co.uk/2013/05/successful-gsa-relationships.html

It could also be called homophobic as I didnt say brother and brother.

The nonsense of equality is getting to ludicrous levels,its being pushed forward by an elite that don't believe in it.

I think you need to be patient Borneo.....one step at at time...

remember the hullaballo about interracial marriages.....then mixed marriages...now Quuuuaaarrr marriages.....you could well be right that GSA's deserve to be the next battlefield.

Probably more cases of incest around your neck of the woods than actual Quuuaarss anyway,  its natural that such issues be prominent in your thinking.

You make my point.

If this referendum is carried do ye think the Gay lobby is going away,they are being bankrolled from America to the tune of millions,they have access to all the top politicians,they will press on til all our institutions are destroyed.

Never any problems with interracial marriages here,mixed marriages were always allowed here so stop trying to rewrite history.

Just because something didn't happen in Ireland, it doesn't follow that it didn't happen.

The battle on interacial-marriage might not have taken place in Ireland (we had little or no one of any colour anyway) but it was fought, nonetheless, in the USA, in NAzi Germany  in Apartheid South Africa etc.

As regards the Gay Lobby being bankrolled from the US, that's just your paranoid imagination running riot!

Actually, strike that, turns out they are coughing up a few quid!

God Bless America!

Glen has acknowledged receiving millions from America.

Breda OBriens article in Saturdays Irish Times sets it out in stark details.

Then again it is a typical defence of yours,no one is allowed a differing opinion they are either mad,paranoid are suffering from some phobia.

http://www.atlanticphilanthropies.org/achieving-civil-partnerships-same-sex-couples

Mission

The Atlantic Philanthropies are dedicated to bringing about lasting changes in the lives of disadvantaged and vulnerable people.

Strange of you to admit your knee jerk reaction of labelling it paranoid was wrong.i suppose the overwhelming evidence made it inevitable.

I had momentarily forgotten the generosity of the above foundation.

You need all the help you can get when opposing highly organised and moneied institutions such as the Catholic Church.

The Catholic Church is a beaten docket,they don't even preach to their own flock.

They should come and tell their members to vote No as its against their religion,instead we have had to listen to priests who just want to curry favour with people who despise them anyway agreeing with the proposal.

Plenty of auld die hards still listen to them.  Wonks wouldn't tie his shoelaces without their say so.

A STATEMENT FROM Catholic bishops that it would be a “grave injustice” for same-sex marriage to proceed is being distributed to over 1,300 parishes throughout Ireland...so don't try and tell me that they are not sticking their oar in.

Kudos to the Church of Ireland group that has come out in support of a ‘yes’ vote

I have a luncheon appointment, old sport.  Catch you later x

A stirring portrait of being bullied and cast out by family members due to one’s homosexuality.    (re: Bronski Beat's excellent "Small Town Boy".


Thankfully a phenomenon fast becoming extinct in Traditional Britain, and much for the better. 

No, in Modern 'Tolerant' New Britain, you are vastly more likely to be bullied (or subjected to an 'Honour Killing' if necessary) if you are a girl or woman who wants to choose her own partner, instead of her silently accepting the suppression of her free choice. The same community also don't like homosexualist men, and no amount of Bronski Beat songs will alter that.

Our recent UK General Election saw a political party rightly being punished for bowing to the Islamic preference for Segregated Meetings at a Community Centre where the women were required to sit separately from men. Unthinkable in any country in the West you would think, but seemingly not to the Labour Party meeting in the Midlands.

One has to laugh really at the inadequacies of the Socialist Left in GB.  The reason they were punished by the electorate was primarily because they failed to choose an electible leader.  What happened at some meeting in  the Midlands is neither here nor there in the big picture.  It remains to be seen if they will learn from this.  If they cannot manage their own affairs, why should they be trusted with running the Country?

Alun, it is fabulous to hear that homophobia has largely diminished in Britain.  We are rather less evolved as a Nation; remember we are, comparatively speaking, a rural backwater whose conscience, constitution, culture  and laws have long been shaped by the Catholic Church (only recently in decline).

Let me give you an example which ties in with the Father in the Bronski Beat video, unwilling to shake his gay sons hand, as he left for the Big Smoke.  How very early 80's you might say.  Well, recently we have had  prominent forumite on here, react in an apoplectic manner to the whiff of an allegation that his Son might be gay.  All sorts of threats were issued, war was declared....and this from a man who had taken colourful abuse form all angles over a long period.  T'was the inference that he had a Gay Son that broke him.  A telling insight into our Nation.

What broke me was the thought YOU might come a calling..

Borneo, as Chief Islamophobe in Residence, can you give us a head up on Honour Killigs and other sordid goings on in the Islam community in Ireland

There was an individual in Waterford butchered some child in some mutilation ritual,the baby died but the judge let him off because he was afraid to offend.

He was guilty of the classic inverted racism that plagues Ozymandius.

Ye deem certain peoples inferior thus letting them away with crimes as they know no better.

One isolated case? Phew!

What makes you think it was isolated,its just the first me to spring to mind.

There was another case in one of those centres where they are all being forced into prostitution,some FGM performed child injured but not killed.
Not that it mattered really as the precedence has been established,allowed do what they like just mention words like Multiculturism and the law are sent running for cover.

I have to say I find female circumcision a particularly vile practice.

The Gay comm were out in force at the match tonight , offering leaflets encouraging people to vote yes ..Happily they were left with plenty ,I have a feeling they can feel it turning against them ,the fact that people are sick of listening to the Government who are all in favour of a yes vote also seems to be having a reverse effect ..Can see this been closer than people think , the deciding vote could be the immigrant one ..Sadly for the pro vote most of our Immigrants are Muslims ,and we know how they'll vote , interesting very interesting .

It is turning alright Workrider because only now people are realising the right of the child.

  Wonks extends olive branch and proposes Alliance of Convenience with Irish Muslims in desperate last gasp attempt to thwart Quuuaaars!

http://www.independent.ie/sport/brian-odriscoll-and-a-host-of-sports-stars-are-backing-a-yes-vote-in-marriage-referendum-31212608.html

Cian Healy:

"Also, I think the "No" posters are an outright disgrace. They're not holes in the "No" argument, they're craters! #Yes

"No campaign is against any single parents or adoption judging by their posters. I find that highly offensive. Haven't heard them clarify."


Robbie Keane (Tallaghts favourite son):

Robbie Keane went to the effort of penning an emotional open letter to the Sunday World Newspaper.
The Republic of Ireland captain and LA Galaxy star said he was prompted to voice his support because he fears gay people are being “excluded because of their sexuality”.

Do you think it is a fundamental right for a child to have the balance of a father and mother Oz?
Give the ould google a rest and just answer honestly.

No.

How many times do you need to be told?

No end of single Mums out there doing a fine job, for example.  Would their parenting impact be boosted by taking a wife....yes, is the answer.....

F/F > F
M/M > M
M/F = M/M* = F/F*

* assumes ready supply of breast milk replacement.


Capisce, Lapsy?

Babies shouldn't be bought either though Oz,there is no rights for the child,he/she cannot be instrumental in the exchange of money.

When you say buying of babies' what do you mean?

Surrogacy Oz,it is going to happen though i believe the yes side are truly looking for equality,it would be an awful stigma to give a child.

Surrogacy already happens in case of childless couples.....are they guilty of buying babies.. don't think so...just overcoming am issue...as gay couples who want a child would be.

as regards the stigma, given to the child, it just isn't borne out by the research (see previous thread)

When you think of the unbearable shame associated with being a single Mother in years gone by....something more readily accepted nowadays, it shows you how quickly perceptions can and do change.

As far as i can ascertain there are just 200 cases of surrogacy in Ireland,most are likely medical cases as you say and maybe a legitimate need,these new cases are different in that there is no medical case,they simply cannot have a child,where does this number go if the referendum is yes? Fair enough your point same sex couples very likely could be great parents,the balance of different sex parents is possibly unfair on the child would be my belief.

Well. we've looked at the effects on kids in various studies, and I for one have come way have satisfied.  Personally, I prefer to consult relevant research rather than speculate.

That is what is wrong,no research has been done,what will the "demand" for surrogate babies be? Is it right that you can get a surrogate baby and you have no medical condition?

Surely the potential stigma is the fact that your Parent are M/M or F/F rather than the fact you were a surrogate child?

The stigma in surrogacy is attached to the surrogate Mother.

No,think it would be you were bought,that would be accepred imo by any child on medical grounds by a couple with medical problems,thik it would be harder to understand the reasons behind a gay couple to be honest,accept a gay man may want to be a father.

Kids at school don't know which of their classmates were surrogates if Parents are M/F....hence no stigma.

The stigma attached to a a child of M/M parents is that their parents are gay... not that they were born by surrogacy...for all anyone knows...they were adopted.

....for all anyone knows..they could have been adopted.

Why would they hide it? Obviously should be kept til the child could understand but the fact it is a thing you won't want to broadcast.

honestly, I completely fail to see your point.

The potential issue in school/society is that the parents are M/M or F/F. I personally wouldn't expect the fact that the child was either adopted or surrogate to be an issue at all.

Many Surrogates would be 50% related to their M/M  F/F adoptive parents, possibly even closer if say a sister of one the M decided to be the surrogate Mother.

Yet you consider this to be a far biggest stigma the if the child had been adopted?

* than if

I was trying to look at it through the childs eyes throughout Oz,and struggling to know what he/she would make of the situation particulary if money changed hands.

Again, I don't get the issue of money changing hands.

A woman offered her services and was paid for them so that the child could be brought into the world.  Otherwise the child would not have existed; would they have prefered not to exist? 

It's a hugely joyful arrival for the parents to be, the surrogate Mother has provided a service that has helped their dreams come through.  I don't have a problem with her being paid.

She offered her body as a service because she needed the money,not a lot right with that,you can argue she knew the terms but she is being exploited also and will suffer the emotional scars for the rest of her life, don't really agree with it myself. She is the childs mother and the child has a right to his mother.

Goodnight, we all look at things differently which isn't a bad thing at times.

If this referendum is passed Gay couples won't have to pay for these babies,they will have a constitutional right which means the State will have to drop.

There is a huge cost element here which is being hidden.

No it does not, if me and my girlfriend had not been able to conceive would the state have paid for a baby for us?

You are beginning to sound like Rocketfingers.

Its different for Gays,they just have to claim to be suicidal,its the same with sex change operations.

so you have zero to back up your claim, hetrosexual couples have a constitutional right then to have kids but the state won't paid for a kid for them if they cannot conceive but they'll do it for a homosexual couple, yet surprisingly this has never happened or they've never said this will happen

another day another Wildman conspiracy theory

When I was young I wanted to be a member of Hells Kitchen but accepted I wasn't good enough..

If you can't have a child just accept it.

Where is the conspiracy ?

Its not passed yet but if you think it doesn't bestow them rights you are fooling yourself.

Every time they have changed the constitution there has been some unseen side affect.

If you can't have a child just accept it.


so why the gay bashing then? your argument is against those who cannot have children of which there are plenty of hetrosexual couples

Where is this alleged gay bashing.

I'm against the redefinition of marriage.

Pointing out a cost element is not gay bashing.

I don't like the concept of surrogacy,I think its exploitative.

If this referendum is passed there will be a host of gays heading for the courts demanding the State pay for them to have children.
The judiciary will accede to their demands as judges love giving away others money.

If this referendum is passed there will be a host of gays heading for the courts demanding the State pay for them to have children.
The judiciary will accede to their demands as judges love giving away others money.


stop making things up trying to scare monger people into voting the way you wish, the fact is the country has evolved since you where young, get over it or emigrate to some other backward land that'll suit you

but she is being exploited also and will suffer the emotional scars for the rest of her life,

She is not being exploited, she is being paid to provide a service

Pa, let google be your friend and look up the reams of research on the pyschological effects of being a surrogate Mother.  Allay thy fear with cold hard research.

Premier getting angry again,are you incapable of civil debate.

Why should I have to emigrate.

Kind of typical of liberal intolerance those who don't fall meekly into line must leave.

you cannot debate Wildman hence why you go off course as you have in your last post every single time, all you do is post made up fabricated stuff with no proof, no basis and just what you have decided inside your head will happen

I am losing a debate I better just say the person is getting angry, has a low attention span, cannot follow the thread etc.................................

Discussions can move.

You keep shouting fabricated,not true but tis you have come up with no evidence.

You have failed to refute my assertions,your argument basically is " if two people love each other " and if you don't like the new intolerant order leave.

For one so tolerant and oh so modern you are insecure in yourself and fear being labelled homosexual ( I don't care what you are )

What evidence do I have to come up with, it is you who are saying the government are going to pay for children for homosexual couples if we vote "yes" without any proof, all I have asked is for you to show me where they said this will happen?

How am I insecure about my sexuality, I would say those who are so against it are the ones who would be less secure and trying to act all macho, maybe they're the ones hiding something. As it is just for you I am in a relationship with a female and am in no way sexually attracted to other males, just because I have no problem with those who are (could not care more like) does not make me insecure.

When you start a post with " if me and my girlfriend " it shows insecurity as its not relevant.
How many of the quintessential  insecure Rocketfingers posts start that way,its sad

The referendum does bestow rights,you want me to quote cases before they happen but should the referendum be passed gay couples will go to court demanding their constitutional rights.

Its self evident to me.

The No side are completely kowtowed.
Is it possible that there is not one TD in the main political parties against this referendum,not one celebrity or Sportstar.
North Korea would be proud of this consensus.

I used my own situation as an example = I am insecure


Its self evident to me. = you have no evidence and are just guessing, fair enough that's allowed but stop trying to pass it off as fact


the reality is you're seething (that means angry ) that this is going to pass and same sex couples will be able to marry


I guess it's actually you who are the one who has already got angry

Its inevitable its going to pass,I'm just trying to keep it respectable.

I'm more war weary than angry but see some worrying signs in this debate,the intolerance of the Yes side,the constant propaganda,the huge money the Yes side have.

Even in this short discourse you suggested I should emigrate for daring to have a differing view.

Not entirely true that now wildman is it?? I never said you should emigrate for having a differing view, I said get over it or emigrate, basically if you don't like it as it will happen.

The constant propaganda? You have posted as much propaganda on here as the whole county combined so that's rich

You might be happier abroad, Borneo.

Between the quuuaaars, the creep of Sharia Law, the immigrants, the EU, the compensation seekers, the emigration, the lawyers, the persecution of jockeys etc. etc. etc......there is so much about the country that dissatisfies you.

Time to stat enjoying your dotage, get your feet up somewhere nice and warm, with a few servants mopping your brow and looking after you.  Cocktails at midday, the lapping of azure water under your feet, perhaps even a romantic dalliance or two.

No need for you to be carrying the weight of the nations troubles on your shoulders any longer.

I have posted my views and you have disagreed as have others,how is that propaganda.

The propaganda is RTE having gay couple after gay couple being on and lauded,taking two people who sold their photo explaining how they are against the poster,not allowing the other point of view,its not even subtle.

I listen to Newstalk in the morning and Chris Donoghue will self combust if this doesn't pass.

If you love it so, try starting a few positive threads now and again.

Is it negative to oppose this referendum ?

If its not opposing this, its opposing something else.  It's your default position.

Shades of Vctor Meldrew about you, resistant to all forms of modernisation and change.

I would not say it is a great country to live in anymore for the younger generation, it may well be for those who are older.

While things are improving on the job front they're hardly great and most are low to moderately paid, against that you now have house prices and rent prices rocketing sky high again all but pricing younger people out of owning their own property and pricing some even out of renting. Childcare is another that is absolutely crazy expensive.

The capital city is overrun with junkies everywhere and it looks awful especially the O Connell Street area, no doubt many of the other cities in the country experience the same problems.

In saying all that there are some beautiful parts of the Island, especially over in the west and north / west

Its called having a view and I have plenty of them.

Agree with a lot of Premiers last post,it saddens me to see people left renting all their life,it saddens me to see our young being forced to leave.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqroDBcBzzA

not nice to hear the intolerance of the yes side to the no side.im an athiest and have an aversion to religion but im voting no because of the constant kotoeing of the media and the fawning of presenters to the yes side.just a though for the yes side   if two people love each other they should be allowed marry.fair enough.if its a mother and son?father and daughter?two brothers?two sisters?its a ridiculous statement

Women are odd Oz,i don't think they are genetically made up to be as mercenary as you think,the maternal instinct will always be there.
Agree with a lot of your points regarding the younger generation Premier,it is very tough for them with the basic right of having somewhere to live. Cork was lucky in that up to a few years ago the criminal godfathers here had zero tolerance towards heroin now it is also very evident,was quite struck by the scummier side in town this morning though on one occasion i was very pleastantly surprised.On a brighter note town was full of tourists,i was taken aback by the number,great that they want to visit the country.
I was struck by Aluns post earlier in the thread,obviously someone who cares for his country,heaven forbid we follow suit though i will be branded by that kind of talk.

It's hard to know what way the vote will go because the majority of the no voters will be afraid to speak out about it.
Obviously the same cant be said of the yes side.

im voting no because of the constant kotoeing of the media and the fawning of presenters to the yes side

With respect, that's a pathetic reason for making a decision.  These are important issues; look at the topic itself and make up your own mind, don't let it come down to being vindictive against the media.

Obviously the same cant be said of the yes side.

Delighted to hear this, we have come along way if its the YES side that's loud and proud.  It would have been different not so long ago.

I was struck by Aluns post earlier in the thread,obviously someone who cares for his country

Its really sad when caring for your country boils down to seeing the Muslim bogey man around every crner.

Still 10 days to go to this bloody thing..... Going to need me some poppers (urban dictionary, Pa) to keep up this sort pace.

Think I will take a break from the campaign trail till nearer the time.....delighted to have turned Lapsy and secured his vote.  Also I feel kavvie is on the brink of changing his mind

I would nearly have to refrain from voting tbh,i believe in the eqaulity part but have doubts about the children situation,i'd have to answer that part further down the line with my conscience if that went wrong.
In part i can understand the vindicative no vote kavvie mentioned,it has been almost forcibly pushed upon people to vote yes, my vindictiveness would be to wipe the smile off Norris's puss,he sickens me.

Pa , how dare you think about Norma's boyfriend like that , imagine having to satisfy THAT every night ,Norris is everything that is wrong with that lot , the fact the Gay lobby were out in force tells its own story ...They are worried believe me..