Profitable Punchestown ??

Why Nina gave them that much of a start on good ground (over any trip) I will never know,expended a lot of energy getting into it but that's the nature of big field handicaps.

Friday's Selection

19.10 - Pride of the Braid 2.2 points EW at 10/1 (PP) - 4 Places

Well done The Gotchee , Wildmanfromborneo.....

Nina did a repeat performance in the Bumper.

Despite a lack of ROI % scores on the doors, it feels like DJ is running away with this.  The other two need to push hard to catch up, which is a bit artificial I suppose, in the sense that it might lead to even uglier returns.

The Gotchee is in front with a profit of 260 points,I'm not far behind with a 100% record and a profit of 200 points.

Should be some buckle for the rest of the week.

Total Staked: 20pts
Total Returns: 2.1pts

^^^ NAMA would be proud of that lose on investment!

Day Four Selections:
3:40 - Rohans Pride 3pts win @ 2/1 (WH)
4:20 - Mr Fiftyone 2.5pts e/w @ 7/1 (1/4 Odds 5 Places Lads)
4:55 - Burn And Turn 2pts win @ 5/1 (Lads)

This is a contest reserved for the modern day sophisticated punter who appreciates the importance of staking plans and discipline.

The All-IN Desperadoes have no place here.

That's not fair,I used a staking plan and a sophisticated one at that,hold fire til you get a good thing then punt the bejaysus out of it.

I might not even have a selection tomorrow,that's how disciplined I've been in this impromptu competition.

The thing is in your case, 100 points = zero, because you have gone all in last week and bust.

My last all in was Dawn Approach,its rather ungallant of you to try and take away my fleeting hour of glory.

Well done on today's selection, old chap. Brave of you to risk all on heresay, I'm glad it came off for you.

There have been any number of ALL-INS since DA.

* hearsay

Ozy hates it when you win Wildmanfromborneo , he now is the self appointed moderator , and feels he's in charge ...Well done on keeping the faith , Wildmanfromborneo the man the bookies fear....

Now you are listening to Paulie too much.

He was visually impressive in Gowran which was my main reason,trained by the best bumper trainer and ridden by the much maligned best bumper jockey.

The hearsay bit was just the final piece of the jigsaw.

Well, turned out you were right anyway, that's the main thing.

Now to try and run down The Gotchee,he's nearly bound to come up with some impossible each way selection.

Friday's Selections

16.55 Burn and Turn 1.7 points win at 9/2 (General)
16.55 Elsie 1.0 point win at 8/1 (PP)

19.10 - Pride of the Braid 2.2 points EW at 10/1 (PP) - 4 Places



Results IR
Total points staked:   27.8
Total points returned: 44.28
Profit:                16.48
ROI:                   59%

Will be attending today so hopefully the tide will turn. Two more selections:

4:20 - Blood Cotil 0.75pts e/w @ 14/1 (1/4 Odds 5 Places Lads)
6:40 - Max Dynamite 2.5 pts win @ 10/3 (WH)

Nicholls Canyon 50 points@ 11/10
On The Fringe. 60 points @ 4/6.

Great meeting so far although Willie Mullins turning into Aidan OBrien is not a good development

Not disputing your price WM, but who in the name of Jesus went 4-6 On The Fringe?! Their odds compiler needs to reconsider his profession.

He is dominating alright, but he is also being competitive and sporting with his runners. If he didn't run Arctic Fire today, it would be a farce altogether. Gigginstown have been very good for the game.

I love Faugheen, have been a huge fan since day one. Also have never been too keen on Arctic Fire. But Faugheen looks short enough today. I wont lay as I would much rather watch, and hope he puts on a show. 'No bet' as Roadrunner would say!!

I think Wildman is referring to the fact so many of Willies supposed 2nd and 3rd strings are emerging victorious.

Yeah, but this wouldn't bother me. Who says they are second strings? Ruby and the market. The market is hugely affected by what Ruby rides, so basically its just Ruby.

Jockeys are not the most intelligent creatures on planet earth! I hate hearing the cry of foul play when a 'second string' wins. If another trainer had it in as their only runner, he would be shorter in the market. Each runner should be judged on their own merits, rather than eliminating them because 'Ruby didn't pick him so...'.

Fair enough, when a APOB pulls off 'stable lad' gamble on a Heff ridden beast late in the season, it leaves a sour taste. But these are Grade Ones Willie is contesting and winning. All, or nearly all, his runners are entitled to be there. They are not machines, and Ruby is not the guy in 'Early Edition'.

Surely its better he is running them, and running them on their merits, than only firing one bullet and reducing the quality of racing??

I would fully agree with all of the above Callit. Ruby can only ride one horse and there's only degrees of difference in ability in many cases. Add in the time of year etc. and it's no surprise that he hasn't been on several of the winners.

I stopped into a Boyles to watch the last two races yesterday. Several of the punters there were crying into their free coffee after Whiteout beat Uranna. They would make you question how they managed to write out the docket such was their level of intelligence.

The multiple WPM runners have added hugely to the competitiveness of the racing this week. I wouldn't be surprised if Sempre Medici upset the applecart again today.

100 pts win Rohan's Pride  13/8  3.40

50 pts e/w Thomas Crapper 9/1  4.20

50 pts e/w Lily Waugh 6/1  4.55

In years to come  think there will be three small boxes at the bottom of each post.When you are putting up a tip, you fill the first  with the selection the second with  the odds, the third with your stake.  ROI% is automatically calculated as the result comes in and an updated ROI% is automatically displayed by forumites name.

If Carslberg did Forums.....

either some on here this they're hilarious or they have no idea about staking I would hope they think they're comedians but on here god knows

Same old joke day after day. By people who are, by their nature, anti-progress in all aspects of life.

8pts Rohan Pride 13-8 3.40

2pts e.w Thomas Crapper 9-1 4.20(5 places)
1.5pts e.w Irish Cavalier 12-1 4.20(5 places)

11pts Nicholls Canyon 4-5 6.05

4pts e.w Tandem 4-1 6.40

Very good TTK.

Saturday's selections - Torrential rain due

15.10 - Heathfield 1.5 points EW at 7/1 (Lads)

16.25 -Pettite Parisienne 1.25 points win at 9/2 (PP)
16.25 -Business Sivola    1.25 points win at 9/2 (Bet 365)



Results IR
Total points staked:   34.9
Total points returned: 50.48 (incl R.4)
Profit:                15.58
ROI:                   45%

I have kept my discipline,my staking plan is self evident.

Three selections three winners.

Total points staked. 210
Total points returned. 505.

Someone else can do the ROI.

As a matter of interest, where did you see those prices Wildman? Dixie?

Will update the running totals in the morning (not that they will be painting a pretty picture)

Final Day Selections:
3:10 Bothair Clei 1.5pts e/w @ 20/1 (1/4 Odds 4 Places BV)
4:25 Qualando 4pts win @ 7/2 (Boyles)
5:00 Gallant Oscar 3pts win @ 11/2 (BV)

The price is already gone so I won't be getting involved but Whispering Storm is allegedly gone by in the bumper. It was just starting to rain when I left the track in it looked to be down for the night so ground could be much softer than today come race time.

A massive improvement today, I managed to nearly break even!!

Rich Ricci rang me before the race, and begged me not to back Faugheen

I expect him to send me the winner of next years Supreme as a thank you for not jinxing the machine. He was superb today. Pure class.

I took 850 out of Blood Cotil and still lost on the day! Reminds me of Wildmans adventures at the curragh.

He was very good as was Nichols Canyon. Sempre Medici looked like he did't stay. I would be very interested in him for the Galway Hurdle. Max Dynamite was a disaster. Sold out on him at 10/3 and 11/4. Good crowd today though it was pretty bloody cold for first day of May. I've been warmer attending the John Durkan!

Qualando is my bet of the week against a motley crew of Irish horses so hopefully Sir Paul can come to the rescue.

50 pts e/w Sizing Coal

50 pts e/w Stars over the Sea

50 pts e/w Rule the World

What price Katie T without the favourite ?

I don't like without the favourite betting,taking a short price in those markets is madness.
Katie T is some improver I think she will make Annie Power go.
If there were eight runners it would be 140 each way but we will have to settle for the below.

Katie T 35 points each way & 7/1

Best price I can see without Annie Power is 10/11

I'm tempted.

You want Katie T to loaf around at the back of the field and come with a late run,that would make the 10/11 generous.
What you don't want is Katie T to get involved in a cut throat battle with Annie Power,if that were to happen she could get beaten off and caught on the line by some staying on lesser beast.

Exactly, a few of these will be ridden to try and achieve 2nd.   What will Katie T do?

You have hit the nail on the head Wildman in respect of "Betting Without" markets. Typically these markets have horses shorter than they would be if the fav wasn't in the race. You also have the added issue of the fav likely having a big impact on the outcome of the race even if they don't affect the result in these markets. Occasionally they can offer some value but the majority of the time they are shaky markets to be getting involved in.

As regards Katie T, they have adopted more patient tactics with her all season (I recall she was handy enough in last years race). This is also the preferred style for Brian Hughes. I imagine she will be held up with Annie making the running and he will make a move between the two hurdles before the turn in.

Across the water, Carpe Diem has a massive massive chance in the Kentucky Derby tonight. He's 10's with PP & Lads (who are paying 1/4 odds 4 places). The ex-Richard Fahey horse Sandiva will win an earlier race there. Jockey went a minute too soon when just nutted in her last run by today's main rival.

Running Total After Day Four:
Total Staked - 34pts
Total Returns - 16.07pts (applied 5 cent rule 4 on Blood Cotil)

Presume Brian will be thinking of his percentage so you'd be safe enough this time.

Katie T is 2.2 a place on here. May back Analifet myself. Katie will have to improve to beat her. And more chance of Analifet being ridden for seond.

T.T.K.  I notice betfair haven,t got a market on the Kentucky Derby tonight,

Total Staked: 44pts
Total Returned: 34.75pts

Fairly poor week. Best regards to those who turned a profit on any scale.

Results
Total staked:    40.4   points
Total returned:  72.92  points
Profit:         +32.52 points

ROI:            80.49%

A lot of crossbars,12/1 and 10/1 second and a 16/1 third but won't complain.

Very well done dj876, a good show from you for the week. If it was Wonky ,Wildman or Pa put up them horses then the rosettes would have been flying.

Fair play DJ, impressive results on a difficult week - he talks the talk AND walks the walk!

The back-slappng brigade will surely form a guard of honour

16 winners for wp mullins, must of been a very difficult week, plus throw in all the other bankers at the meeting that are not trained by the great man himself, the irish forumites who still dont like JEZKI

Mincer and Itcanbedone ignoring the facts.

Fair play to DJ876 but the fact is I had the better returns.

Four selections,three winners.

Total points staked.  280
Total points returned.  510.

That's a profit of 230 points,even in your twisted minds that shows one winner.

Well Done DJ. It had been a very trying week for punters up until yesterday in my book.

Widman it's self evident that ROI is the only correct measure. It levels the playing field when you have people using farcical staking plans. In any event, you made up prices for the two winners on Friday.

One question about banks and staking plans.

Am I right in saying, for example ....if you were to double your original bank of 100 to 200, then a one point bet represents 2, rather than 1 as it was originally.  It also means that you never go bust, unless you go all in. 

OR...does one point always remain 1% of your original bank?

I would expect it to be 1% of the original bank. I wouldn't think that the value of a "point" would be a moveable feast.

Strictly between us two TellTheKing not sure how to work out the ROI maybe you could do the needful.

Nicholls Canyon was 11/10 with four different bookmakers so hardly made up.

Wildman makes it up as he goes along and had the cheek to copy dj with one of his selections, and when the original price had long since vanished. On top of that he had a professional paddock watcher on track giving him the heads up  , which is a huge help as you can imagine.

I think there is an argument to look at it both ways, TTK.....as your bank grows, so should your average stake, and vice versa.

Borneo, I stll chuckle the day when Pa was up 11 points after a month of staking....you proclaimed that his ROI was 1100% as he had eleven times more in his pocket than when he started.


ROI %  =  Profit (or Loss) / Total Points Staked x 100

It's "Gain On Investment/Total Outlay". In the case of 230pts profit on 280pts staked it would be 82.14% profit.

There was odds against Nichols Canyon but when I checked he was evens best (Slybet who wouldn't lay a penny) and odds on everywhere else. As for 4/6 Bolgers I don't know where you for that.

I suppose that is true Ozy. The way I look at it though is that a horse is worth the same stake whether you are going well or going bad.

That was the post office in Roscrea who were going that. It was a special offer and you had to put your cash in an envelope and register it. The winnings are returned after the weekend

Come on now Mincer you should know my record with you was phenomenal,you had to leave the forum over a bet against me.

You also know that I encouraged your boss in no uncertain terms to have his life on Yorkhill at Punchestown.

Ye can squirm all ye like but my points total was far and away the highest,even using your own formula I still won as 82.14% exceeds DJ876 80.49%
Whichever way ye look on it I won.

No one who loses 70 points in one bet is likely to be admired in modern progressive gambling circles, having already risked the entire bank several times.  We all know where the story ends. 

Think about how much less risk DJ took to earn a similar reward....and ask yourself which 'gambler' you would expect to see succeed going forward.

They will probably still look upon you as hero on the stools at Kilnaskully. That's if they don't empty the place when they see you coming.

It's not "my own formula". It's basic maths. ROI is the only true measure of a gamblers success. If you don't clear 5% ROI annually then you're better off not punting as its a poor use of cash. That's another basic enough point.

What would you have said if one of us had six thousand points on Annie Power?

Your final return is skewed by phantom prices which certainly weren't available when you posted. I don't really mind who won as I'm more worried about my own negative return. Bit sad to see the spoofery though.

Where were the phantom prices,ye may have a point about the price of On The Fringe as it was a special but the 11/2 Gallant Oscar was  dubious as were a lot of DJ876 prices.

I know its hard for you to say but you have to admit I won even using your own rules.

The phantom prices were Nichols Canyon and Bolger's. Neither existed when you posted them. It's somewhat hypocritical after getting stuck into DJ on same earlier in the thread.

I only used prices after I had already taken them myself.

You're making it sound like I'm trying to do you when it's simply a case of stating the facts as they stand. You do love to present yourself as the impinged upon alright.

Its called playing ye at your own game.

Ye were using extra places and all sorts of specials,where was the 11/2 Gallant Oscar,ye neglect to say these specials or not for us we don't qualify.

Its like ye claiming double result when its not there for all.
Its like ye claiming those sneaky each ways when its only there for mugs.

How much would you have got on each way on Pearlysteps against On The Fringe.
How much would you have got on each way on Sizing John.

WD Borneo,

Did you manage to turn a profit on the week ?

None of my prices were dubious and all can be verified by the times on oddschecker, if you're too lazy to avail of these prices that's fair enough. We live in an innovative age and you either adopt and evolve or die.

I wasn't in a competition with anyone as always stated on this thread apart from the books.

For your own accounts,Yorkhill was 5/4 with hours before you posted,Nicholas Canyon was 4/6 and on the fringe was 1/2.

How did the much hailed Gob**** fair out?

He was demanding scores earlier on this thread in an attempt to embarrass,I think it was approximately minus 500 points.

His tip of Boston Bob on another thread was much revealing,my 12 year old nephew was able to tell me that the new staying chasers were at least a stone better than on his own,Boston bob etc

Extra places is a standard concession in Festival races these days. As stated in my post, the 11/2 Gallant Oscar was with BVictor. I have a losing account with them so it helps with the accommodation. Any bet i had with PP or lads were available to any street punter while there are online firms who will lay you as long as you don't take the piss. I would be mightily surprised if there was any firm that wouldn't take your bets or withdraw these concessions. There's a world of difference between extra places and, say, enhanced prices to a score max.

I had every bet I put up on here with the quoted bookie prior to posting. Would you like me to copy all of my receipts from my accounts to verify?

Its not laziness it's knowing those prices are not for me.

Nicholls Canyon was never best priced 4/6.

The Gotchee entered into the spirit of the thing,he was showing a huge profit but ending up losing but like your claim about Nicholls Canyons price wildly inaccurate.

At the time you posted Nicholas Canyon was 4/6,times can be verified Wildman.

Have you any accounts that are restricted? I would be astounded if you have because your erratic staking means you will always lose in the long run.

Nichols Canyon was about 5/6 best with any firm that would lay a bet.

"Its not laziness it's knowing those prices are not for me."

The above statement captures perfectly and equally your arrogance,foolishness,lazyness and your inability to decipher between illusion and reality.

Had an account with Victor Chandler closed after a year.

I was approached by a Grand National winning owner to open an account with Sunderlands,promised a host of guarantees,three weeks that account lasted.

I gave up on morning prices long ago.
I don't blame the bookmakers in this instance as they look on these prices as just a guide.

Have you ever been refused a €50 bet in a PP shop?

The 8/1 on Felix Yonger was there for five hours on Monday afternoon (over 12 hours online).

It would take me less than 45 minutes to get to 10 shops without effecting the price.

I think a monkey at 8/1 would be a decent bet for 95% on punters on here,how is this unrealistic?

I accept 365 is a different kettle of fish but in terms of getting bets on (there are ways) but my god it's as lazy as sin not to try to avail of overnight prices. You obviously don't try to get your stake on in one shop.

That's a nothing response Wildman, ignoring the questions posed as you have done many times previously.

There's any number of ways to get money on as long as you manage it correctly. You have no interest in putting in the ground work and would rather believe that only mugs can get on.

Your posts and bets on this thread have been childish and lacked authenticity.

Wildman and the Gotchee's ridiculous staking and immature comments were clearly a childish attempt to sabotage the thread and convey everything that's wrong with the forum,ie

Bitterness,begrudegery and a refusal to evolve.

Get off your moral pedestal ffs dj, you have maintained that overnight prices were just for mug punters and here you are with a sickening different tune, which is it? You slaughtered a thread that i started on overnight prices,go away and read your replies,it isn't far down.
(decent picking from ya all the same)

There is a clear distinction PA with getting on with PP online on overnight prices and getting on in the offices,perhaps I was envious of your account where as I have to do a lot of leg work. 365 is a lot more difficult for obvious reasons.

Anyways wasted enough time with these begrudging questions,go through the thread with any prices you want.

My comments on Yorkhill were on another thread well before I posted about him here.

You conveniently forget I'm not a professional,I punt because I enjoy it.
You also forget I work and live in a rural area,I have no interest in driving around trying to filch prices that may or may not be there.

Ye may be making money but I doubt it.
TellTheKing would have a better chance than DJ876 because he is more flexible.
DJ876 is interesting and I actually value his opinion but the poor fellow is tortured by rules,he's not a natural has no feel for gambling and you get the impression that a losing run would tip him over the edge.

You havn't spent anytime on it you have avoided it because it is a total contradiction to this thread,you have vilified PP for not allowing an overniight bet which i disagreed with and now a complete turnaround,not sure your argument in going to x amount of shops the night before would stand up to much scrutiny for a few reasons,namely the logistics for 1 and the quickness price cuts come into effect for another.

You obviously haven't been in Dublin in a while,there are at least 15 PP shops within a 20 minute walk (in different directions obviously) from where I live.

sounds like you are living within 20 min walk of the epicentre of gambling in dublin, with all those different disguises you can employ, should be able to get your bets on forever.

DJ , Pa is correct , you seems to be moving the goal posts to suit yourself ...You must live in the City Centre to have so many PP so close ..Surely they would be wairy of you coming in day after day and having the same bets on the same horses ..?

May 3, 2015 -- 3:44PM, wildmanfromborneo wrote:

My comments on Yorkhill were on another thread well before I posted about him here.You conveniently forget I'm not a professional,I punt because I enjoy it.You also forget I work and live in a rural area,I have no interest in driving around trying to filch prices that may or may not be there.Ye may be making money but I doubt it.TellTheKing would have a better chance than DJ876 because he is more flexible.DJ876 is interesting and I actually value his opinion but the poor fellow is tortured by rules,he's not a natural has no feel for gambling and you get the impression that a losing run would tip him over the edge.

I feel my effort is wasted on you Wildman but I will explain my perspective one last time to you.

The quote which represents your philosophy is what hinders your punting.

You proclaim rules to be a hindrance but there are exactly what enables your edge (whether that be hard work or networking) to flourish.

Yes it would e a negative if your rules were taken from a book,my rules have evolved from years of experience.

A lack of rules (ie excessive staking or too many bets) or flexibility is what will damage and destroy your perceived edge no matter how hard your work.
Rules to me are effective risk and bank control management which in my opinion are of paramount importance to sustainable punting.

PS, Dislike using horrible buzz words such as edge/networking but they explain it quickest.

Workrider,I obviously back plenty of losers also.I probably use up to 25/30 offices (PP,LADS,Spoils) but might only use a choice of 6 or 7 each day. My average bet in each shop would be in the range of €40 -€60 so wouldn't attract much attention.

There are many ways nowadays with hedging devices available in your hand to integrate yourself within a shop and let's be honest the staff are hardly sharp.

I had to collect an in running hurling docket a few weeks ago,the price expanded as I placed the bet and they tried to pay me out at a defaulted 5/6 (instead of 5/4) because it was incorrect.When I queried the assistant they said perhaps there was a R4.

Now you know as well as anyone that I lack tolerance or patience so you can imagine how difficult it was for me to bite my hand.

Ozymandius  • May 3, 2015 12:50 PM BST 


One question about banks and staking plans.

Am I right in saying, for example ....if you were to double your original bank of 100 to 200, then a one point bet represents 2, rather than 1 as it was originally.  It also means that you never go bust, unless you go all in. 

OR...does one point always remain 1% of your original bank?

Oz, Dec has an article on staking on his site...http://www.learnbetwin.com/premium-advisory-service-horse-racing-tips/......scroll down to 'What betting bank should I have?'

ROI is obviously the only way to truly assess success or failure.

WD DJ, was a difficult week up until yesterday. Analifet and Sort Me Out done exactly that. Hoping for Murphy to complete to recovery on the baize.

Wildman, you certainly had a better week than me!! Though was very surprised to read you didn't know how to calculate ROI.

As for the Rule 4 in the hurling, I don't think I would have been able for that! I was doing a bet on the cricket in a PP shop last week....the girl behind the counter asked could I not fill the bet out on the correct slip. I asked which slip I should use. 49ers I was told. Ok!!

Mathematics wouldn't be my strong point.

Dart finishes,snooker scores mustard but that was out of necessity.

The point our two intrepid punters are missing is whilst I'm trying to make money I don't have to,I just like punting.
If I have a bad run I go back to the woods repentant and work my way back.

What does you not minding whether you lose money have to do with any of the points raised above? As Jordan Belfort said, there's no nobility in poverty.

In order to stave off another trip to the woods I suggest you have a few quid on Little Popsie in the next race at Belmont.

Thanks callit, interesting reading.

So Deco advocates that as your bank increases, so will your stake per point (plus many further nuances).  So 1 point effectively means 1% of running bank total.

We might have to run Borneo' figures again ...that 70% hit at the end (rather than a 70 point decrease) will surely do for his final ROI % and he may have to reevaluate his proclamation off himself as the winner

Quick calculation, I make his ROI % as 9.6%.....94/983.  DJs figures much less affected.

Please return the Gold Medal.

I like the woods,I never bet on an American race in my life bar a bit of laying on the Breeders Cup.

Whilst I like reading others opinions on racing and contrary to what people think I heed those opinions but I like to make my own selections

Down to my last dollar, TTK.

Please wire moneyz for girls and stimulants.

I got an email today from a king in Nigeria Ozy who needs an EU based bank account to legitimise some money. Will I pass him your details? I understand he would be amenable to giving you a slice. Certainly enough to replenish the hedonism fund.

You were right to stay away Wildman. I shall admonish my mole accordingly.

I'll cut the Nigerian in from the profits the next time your Mole finds a good one.

I know a pro gambler who tries to bet early prices but simply can't get the dosh down or enough of it, so can't say it's mug punters betting them but it is more lads who are happy enough to get a few bob down.

Deal.

Some very interesting stuff from Declan Meagher. Will be winding down the punting over the summer months but some food for thought for when the NH season gets going again.

One of the cleverest punters I know , backs in 20 15s ,takes what he can at night prices ..He was at Punchestown this week and backed winner after winner it seemed ..He said sometimes its very hard to get on even to his small stakes ...So it must be only pennies people can get on at those prices..

Was not following this thread , most of my bets last week at Punchestown were not with the firms quoted most here .  Had only one bet in PP office , although I checked them out each day  , only bet was Road to Riches at 4/1 , money back if second to a Mullins winner .  Given it was a clear 3 horse race and that general opinion ( including commentating pundits etc ) was not sure that Don Cossack would stay 3.1 , reckoned it was a sporting bet . Looked like money back 2 out , did not reackon with Don Cossack putting Djakadam away fairly easily .

Normally I would have lots of bets in PP offices during P/Town , that I didn't this year indicates something may have changed .  No trouble getting decent bets in their offices up here , as long as you are not ripping the ar*e out of it regularly .

JP had some meeting , think he had 4 on Saturday , only one of which was of interest to me as it happened . The jockey retention ( if it happens a la AP set up ) is going to be interesting .  Personally I think they may go with the flow and just get the best available on a day to day basis  , most of those riding JP horses last week were good pilots , and they do hold a winning hand -- trainers , jockeys , horses ( and owner) .

Tony does not remember any winners or this thread but was in fact the first person to reply (negatively) to it.

He did seem to go quiet when winners were being produced though.

yes that tony is a nasty piece of work, he threatened physical violence against a disabled fella on another forum.