What's the definition of Shrewd in racing terms?

I'll be succinct Chelts..........PROFITABILITY!!

Even for trainers, whatever about how many Cheltenham winners Willie Mullins trains this year, he will still have a very profitable business. He'd be miles in front on the game if he never trained another winner.

Couldn't argue with ye there neill!

Nail on the head...

Unfortunately, I'm still in search of the Holy Grail, I'm sure others here could tell us how successful trainers and punters go about it.

Quietly if they have any sense .

Shrewd in racing terms.
Look no further,we got them right here on this forum.
Dan the Man.Knows whos backing what even if they dont know themselves.
Wonks.Needs to brush up on his phone numbers.Not the most reliable,has been known to pass on info privately but no worries news usually trickles through when he heads them.
Sir Anthony.Can keep you informed on all things Brookside.
Just a little trio, there for you but numerous others waiting in the wings.

Of course purpose forgot to mention his good friend  Pikey  Paulie  the king of the shrewdies , in his most recent outrage over on the man forum ,the Dougie Costello thread , it should be compulsive reading for everyone .. Pikey Paulie raged about Costello taking the inside route , it came to the notice of a formite called Foxy ,who asked Pikey Paulie were the horse had finished ..You could't make it up ..It had only gone and WON ,Pikey Paulie will never live that down ..Yes where would we be without the KING of the shrewdies ....

Workrider I can only assume the Costello ridden horse was Amidon in Plumpton on Sunday who was second. That horse did receive a brain dead ride.

Thats the one TellTheKing , he then thought it had WON and was apoligising to Foxy , they hold him in very high esteem over on the main forum as you can see by their comments...

Shrewd =  say nothing and people will think you know something.

How did he think it had won? I assume he saw the race given he knew Dougie went down through the ploughed field? Something not right there.

Notwithstanding today's ban, Tony Martin is easily the shrewdest trainer in Ireland. He knows his horses capabilities early on and there is a plan for every horse.

There are others who can land a stroke but there's few that have so many steps ahead planned as Martin.

hear same shrewdie lost a farm.....bit careless that

TellTheKing ,read the thread its on the 2nd page now , funny and sure to make you laugh..

Had a look there. It reads to me that he was being slightly sardonic in apologising as he knows well the horse didn't win. That's my interpretation and the only logical one to be honest.

Unaware of Martins situation RA other than the rumours. What I can say is that I work in the area of insolvency / restructuring and you would be surprised at the people who get into trouble. Wouldn't detract from my view on him as a trainer in any event.

Shrewd in racing terms is trainers making a fool of owners using their horses to make more money than the already outrages weekly training fee. They do this by running them dishonestly until it suits or selling a horse to get their slice of sale.

Not so Shrewd is owners allowing the current system that's in place to facilitate the above.

So the shrewd guys of racing are only shrewd to the persons who are not shrewd enough to know what the f... the close knit family of racing are doing and what they are capable of. Recent evidence even through light on stewards taking a blind eye to an outrages ride by a senior and past champion jockey. So while there is always shrewd beware they need suckers to survive.

Friends of mine owned a decent chaser a good while back . Down the field for a good while , getting handicapped and fit . One day they ( being fairly shrewd individuals and punters ) figured their horse had a chance  , trainer told them not to back it  , hacked up at 33/1 with them looking on .  Excuse was the horse "ran away " with the jockey ( who was related to the trainer ) .

On to next race , big handicap , again the trainer told the owners not to back it , they looked at horse in parade ring  , looked fine , when they came back around to the stands / bookies their horse had been backed from 12/1 to 6/1 . They put their heads together , had a decent bet on the horse( but not an "inspired" bet )  , hacked up . Horse was removed from trainer next morning .

Shrewd trainer , maybe , more like a crook in my estimation . Word spreads though .

ref banjackstd other point , a long time ago a friend owned a horse , in training with a ( then ) prominent trainer . Horse became disappointing , trainer advised owner to sell it , he might have a new owner waiting in the wings . Sale took place , horse suddenly improved ( with same trainer ).

Old owner ran across the new owner one day at the track , and after a short discussion the buying price and the sale price of the horse got mentioned , one was twice the other . So the man in the middle got 100% of what my friend recouped . Never heard whether any refund was sought or forthcoming .

The trainer in question is still operating albeit at a minor level . Just wonder are 100% "finders fees " acceptable .

working on a project with partner at moment. already moved horse from trainer A to B due to complete lack of communication. Little form in book at present and horse is on his way to a good mark. A point to point run some time ago has promised ability and a mark in mid-low 90's looking good. Trainer has simply been told "get it ready" and the plan will be to try to somehow get quiet money on at decent odds.

This will be a version of "shrewd" when the plot plays out and i'll be wiser. The really big unknown is whether the horse has "real" ability and my one task is to try to push the trainer on this beforehand.

my experience of horses in training before is that unless you are COMPLETELY in charge of the campaigning you have little chance. to explain this as my experience relates it: a small owner will not dictate to a mid-high level trainer and finding a small trainer willing to risk losing a horse after a few poor runs is a good reason to keep an owner in the dark. In summary, it takes a lot of money to be confident of getting it right taking in all the competing forces.

Interesting "project" Royal . People forget that this sort of execrcise involves investing time and money in return for a certain "dream" factor . Any profit from this sort of exercise rightly belongs to yourself and those others involved , the trick is keeping the lid on it until the cat is out of the bag ( hopefully the cat can win ) .

Unfortunately there are those in society who think that you owe it to them to keep them informed and allow them to profit from your efforts .  The big owners are always under pressure from the media in this respect , when really the only people entitled to benefit from activity are those who pay the bills .

Best of luck .

Tell the king....when you are conversing with workrider please refrain from using words like sardonic as there is no way on earth he knows what it means.....as you will probably have gathered by now you are dealing with minimal brain power when engaging with this gentleman......As you quite rightly pointed out it was a braindead ride....and of course I knew where it finished.....
This latest nugget is from a man who famously dissed a horse one day because he was sired by War Front.....and then promptly tipped another horse in the same race.....and I don't have to tell you what the sire of his selection was.....that's what we are dealing with .....

Pikey , you shot yourself in the foot as usual , thought you needed to add petrol to the fire ,when in fact the house was already ablaze ,Foxy took you to task , and you crapped yourself in your haste to apoligise ..A little like your football thread ,remember that , an alltime classic....

the kav got done up like a kipper by the biggest shrewdie on here.

Wonky comes across as VERY shrewd.

Peter OHehir the shrewdest of them all.

slickster, I take it you have never met workrider?

No need to tony.

Wonkys long haired lover from Liverpool as the song goes

Ya dirrrrrty Bas tard Tony

intresting stuff and its all true.about 25 yrs ago 6 of us bought a horse through a "trainer" from limerick.12500 pounds was the price.it turned out useless.had a slight physical prob with back leg.anyway we took our loss etc.a few yrs later i was on a plane when i got chatting a guy beside me..amazingly he was the guy who sold the horse to our dear trainer..for...1750.nice profit in a few weeks for mr honesty trainer?..im sure this is rife in sales circles..specially when dealing with syndicates etc

Ref my 16.56 post a bit back re discrepancy between buying and selling a horse in training , looks like this may be a common place activity  , kavvie . The annoying thing about it is when you know the score as to what has happened someone and the media guys keep telling us what a wonderful ( respected) person a particular trainer is , it makes you very sceptical . In the case I quoted , which happened a long time ago , the trainer is still in operation .

Advice would probably entail getting an independent vet on board in the case you quote , in my case it would be examination of horses running and asking stable staff etc a lot of questions . Some people might be in awe of trainers / professionals (in other disciplines )  , not here . Talking with a family friend last weekend , his nephew is one of the star trainers in USA , interesting discussions .  Have to keep the person on side though , hope to visit the training set up(s) when I eventually ( hopefully) make it to the USA .

thing about getting a vet is hes prob in cohoots with the trainer.its a very insular set up..i was involved with 6 horses.none ever placed.i gave it up as a bad job ..

Kingrat has one for sale, kavvie, he might do you a deal.

Thats a bad run kavvie .  A friend ( acquaintance ) who has had some success with a couple of horses over the last 10 years approached me one night in our golf club , talked about his horse(s) , possibility of "buying in" to their syndicate was mooted . No interest here , too many burned fingers , stories , near misses , unlucky runs , hooky episodes  etc etc in my racing library which stretched back ( via my father ) to the thirties in Ireland ( mainly) and England .

My father owned a lot of (good) greyhounds way back , 2 of his mates won English Derbys post war , but even my father who was shrewd got his fingers burned towards the end .  Never could prove anything , he walked away from the "game" almost overnight . When there is money and animals involved there is endless scope for "unusual " happenings .

the kav is all over the place since i shafted him.

the only person you shafted was yourself, your like a dog giving itself a chew!!

Anyways, trainer gallops said project horse in advance of run next weekend., vet confirms hairline fracture and 10 weeks box rest: season over! We'll probably cut & run now as this is second serious setback in 2 years. Attrition rate with single jumps horses is brutal.

Unfortunate , Royal .  Often wonder what percentage of horses fail to stay sound  , suspect the figures are quite high .

Guess it keeps the big animal vets in business though .

Talk of people being taken advantage of by cliques reminds me of a story told to me by my Mam many years ago. This wealthy farmer was on his way up to Dublin by train to see a medical specialist. On the train he began opening his mail for that day when he mistakenly opened the envelope containing the letter of reference from his local GP :  "Dear Michael, I am sending you up a fat goose. Pluck it well".