Ol Man River and John F Kennedy

Spot on CR,it happened a few times last year, my own view if it was so unfit it shouldn't be allowed run,the horse is certainly not running on it's merits,action should be taken against AOB for using the racecourse as a training ground but of course that won't happen. Fair to say an awful lot of trainers leave a bit to "work on" but that is a different level.

He was mulish at the stalls as well though. That was 3 stone from Derby winning form. Lot of guess work involved to be backing it at tens now.

wouldnt throw any more money on that donkey, already been beaten twice now. doesnt seem to be the best one
at ballydolye judged on todays performance. will be happy if it does win, very sceptical about its chances now.

Will come on a lot for the run , looked babyish to me ,a very plain looking individual , certainly wouldn't win a good lookers comp ...As has alread been said , using the racecourse as a trial and nothing will be said about it...

Greaser would have been in his element today.

I seem to recall a similar incident last year and one of our modest forumites apologised on behalf of Ireland on the HR forum.

Did you perchance apologise to Ruby which is more to the point ?

How is that more to the point on a thread discussing AOB using the racecourse as a training ground?

I apologise on behalf of Irish racing...........who do you think you are at all??

Nearly as bad as the time you opposed the fav because he was by war front and you guessed it your selection was by the same sire,only you are capable of that.

I seem to remember dj876 putting up a 1/10 shot that was badly beaten......... At least workrider was right about the War Front.

Another sh1t for brains enters the discussion,love to hear the name of that 1/10 horse Gotchee ?

You really show yourself up mate , time after time you just gripe  , you have nothing to offer only sarcasim , thing is mate I KNOW who I am whereas you don't , you discredited a great Irish jockey , then tried to blame someone else as usual ..It was kind of you to post those 1/5 shots that got beat though , you related to a tipster call Rix by any chance ?..Did you advise people not to buy their homes recently to put their money into stocks , that yield little or no return ..Amazing ...

Name the 1/5 shot?

Not what I advised at all but since you're illiterate that's what you interpreted.

Impossible to have a discussion with brain dead imbeciles who have never done a days work in their lives.

Dj , I'd say I paid more in taxes in one year than you paid in your whole life , when I had my business I paid through the nose for clowns like you to sit around all day doing nothing ...If work was in the bed you'd sleep on the floor ...You re one sad kid trying to be a man ...Next time you draw the dole think of guys like me who Made this Country a place worth living for the likes of you , who contribute nothing to the economy ...

Was it the drinking or the gambling on american horses lost you your business?

You know more had a business than you have ever done a day's work in your life,ya scrounger.

The dunce of the Irish forum,have never met anyone as dense.

no more

I made enough money to retire in my 40s mate , business is business and many who lack education make more than a good living if they have the right people around them ..You though will make nothing of yourself , you have that victim mentality , everyones against you ,thats how you see life ..Then you turn to name calling accusations etc , thats why you'll always be a loser ...

You have lost the plot dj876. 1/10 shots is the reason you are in the poor house.

The Gotchee , We're better off leaving the kid alone , poor lads under pressure , he's back to school in the morning...

Better off leaving it at that workrider. I suspect he was on JFK today and he needs to take it out on somebody.

That and his Daddys shares going walkabouts into the bargain ...

^^^^^^^

The sharpest of minds only on BF,notice that the naming of the alleged 1/10 and 1/5 shots didn't get a response.

I am surprised that Wonky is able to recognise that he would have needed to have smarter people around him.

Two thicker people you couldn't meet with the same repetitive bull over and over.

dj, u ever hear of Anger Management classes?

DJ , It doesn't matter to us what the name of the horse was , we KNOW it got beat at odds on , and it wasen't to ONLY odds on shot you put up that got beat ..You'd never last in the boardroom , you always have to be right , thats why you'll never make it in business ..You should be alright if you are left to your own devices though , anyone can play the BIG shot on their own , but when REAL life raises its head then you have to man up ,sadly I can't see you been able to...

Holy God,Carlos Slim, Buffett and Soros rolled into one. Jeez if you were taking advice of the illiterate Tallaght scrounger,it would be time to pack up.

Freddie have you ever considered a post on horse racing or have you any interest at all?

JFK was very poor today and the signals were being shown a very long way out. He didn't pick up at all and as I said earlier some of AOB stable are running very badly first time out.

I was always a Ol Man River fan rather than JFK and I was surprised at the 4.6 that on JFK for the Derby earlier in the week. I wouldn't write of JFK alltogether but Ol Man River is the best of this crop of 3yr olds for me.

Again you fail to see error of your ways , a open mind is the key ,you don't seem to be able to grasp that ..If you have Marcel Link's book at hand , been a trader I'm sure you have , We can have a little chat ..On page 296 he speaks about becoming a better trader , we can start there if you like ?

I never knew wonky retired with his money made in his 40's......fair play to ya wonks.....I must congratulate you.....
For making me fall down the ground laughing that is.....

Pikey btw when signing on in Mayfield this week , dont forget to tell them about the Brother ...

Well kid you found the book..?

Wonks you are an old character all the same......theres worse on here.....you are a game old fella.....
I told them about me brother when I was signing.....my young fella is nearly 18 and is due to start signing as well.....the youth of today don't half have it easy.....they can retire now at 18.....

WR

"The Losers Game" by Charlie E may be more apt.

good on ya Paulie , nothing like starting them early ...

Catch , do I need to read it ..?..Am I that bad...

Is DJ not really a trader then .......

Never said I traded on here,you're listening too much to Borneo about the stilted mind and being risk averse.

Never read any book on gambling either but Borneo repeats it so often you take it as factual,I don't bother disputing it.

Anyway Wonks,I have a limit to the amount of time I can give to someone of such limited capacity.

Poor huddys is cringing with every post you make.

Of course not WR. Just a very good read

Now back to the golf

Ah I should have known  , you talk the talk but don't walk the walk ,its all starting to come apart before your very eyes , so you advise people how to bet , sorry I'll correct that , you try to ridicule them when they go all in etc , you would have us believe you actually KNOW what you are talking about , when in fact you don't ...You are starting to look more foolish than I thought , looks like WILDMANFROMBORNEO was right after all , night now kiddo , I'm done with you ...

Painful stuff.

dj, maybe u would be happier if u left the bedroom and went to the odd meeting like wr.

Freddiek , think the lad has been shown up for what he is , a sad individual with no life , and the victim mentality to boot...Best left alone methinks..

Lol does not seem to put WR in much better form

Neddie you don't go racing yourself mate, never once heard you say on here you go racing. I do although i like to go corporate as much as possible.

We are looking down on your lot anyway , we are on the up , ye , well you know were you're heading...

You'll never look down at me a anything, anyway my betting bank is looking v smart so that is all that matters Oh i see you having a go at dj about his betting btw, you must have forgot about when you were a pro punter again, for how many week WR?

You believe what you want mate ,thing is I was MAN enough to try it , there is no shame in trying the shame is NOT trying , your betting bank wouldn't worry me mate , in fact I'll toss you for it....

There was nothing to like about the John F Kennedy run.

He looked mulish and one paced,ground no excuse neither is fitness.

Young Joe said a lot of O'Briens could be fitter,whether that applied to JFK we don't know,very possible it could be a combination of most of the reasons above and can only wait til his next run.

Well ye can be sure as night follows day that he's a lot better than he showed on sunday and i'd be surprised given the hype surrounding him if he were not to win a Group 1 this season.

I doubt he's the horse they hyped last year tbh Chelt , he's no looker , wouldn't stand out in a good maiden imo...Very imature looking so maybe he'll improve , but he'll have to show a lot more before carrying my cash in group company...

Could be right WR,Next run is the crucial one,It will reveal all.

Still think JFK will go off Fav and most likely win the Derby,There was absolutely zero chance he gave anywhere near his true running on his seasonal debut,And we've since seen how much O'briens are improving for a run,Think he's well worth backing now as if he wins the Dante which ive no doubt he will come very close then he'll be Fav again.

We will find out tomorrow if it is all hype or not

John F Kennedy and Ol Man River will both leave their previous runs well behind imo.
We've seen it a million times with Ballydoyle horses.

York 15:15 To Win Today and The Derby Betting Odds - JFK 14's done

Both hopeless,

Hard to see either coming back from that.

The English horses have looked poor all season but those three really put some distance between them and the rest it hat looked the best Dante ever Pre race.

Cheltenham awaits both .

Cape Cross,Halling and Phoenix Reach a nightmare for Coolmore.

best dante ever before the race unlucky ruby, has aiden got anything left for this years derby???

done yep

Irish,
JFK for the Supreme ?

O'Brien's Derby locker looking rather bare atm.
Who's left now -Aloft ,Hans Holbein, Giovanni Canaletto?
All would seem to be 10-12 lbs short of being realistic candidates.
Might they still shoot for it with Gleneagles ?

I've been wrong about Gleneagles for over a year now so might as well keep going.

Don't think he will stay,he looks a miler and whilst his sire is a giver of stamina his dam never won beyond six furlongs,she was by Storm Cat.
Yoursothrilling is her dam,she won a Group 2 as a two year old,may not have trained on as a three year old.

Is JFK really that bad?Virtually pulled up in both starts this season,Absolute disaster for Coolmore.
Wouldn't win a listed contest around wexford on his last 2 runs,
Will they even run him in the Derby now?Ol Man River travelled well into contention but found little,
Hard to know what to make of O'Briens horses,Impossible trainer to work out.
Even JFK's maiden win was better than what he's produced this season,A real head scratcher.

Catch me, more like the Albert bartlett. Slow.

How did Ol man river trade at 2/1 in the race.

irish guy,if u watch the race again it's easy to see why he traded at 2s.

Ain't seen race but should just put them both away now and try and get them better for second half of the season.

They've likely shown something at a stage to have the reps they have, Steinbeck has done good things in Hong Kong and the likes of St Nicholas Abbey and Fame & Glory have both come back after looking finished so I wouldn't write either off. Might even get reasonable prices about them now.

A lot of Aiden's hype does eventually come through in a measure I find.

If they are going anywhere, it will be to Mike DeKock I'd have thought.

I know he looked to be going well at one stage CR but not that well I thought.

Would agree with Irish , out the back most of the race and never really a factor yet hits that ,its no wonder these guys are losing so much money...

He was going very well irish,Only problem was it was 3 furlongs from home

that was never in the race, you must be blind if you thought that looked like winning at any moment in that race OMR.
repeat after me, JFK WILL WIN THIS YEARS DERBY

The Blackpool Beach version?

I read on another thread AOB said neither will be running in the Derby now.

O'Brien said: "It was disappointing really. Ryan [Moore] said John F Kennedy travelled very strong and he just cut out, he did the same at Leopardstown. There is something that we haven't found. Every year, when you have a big bunch of horses they won't all move on. Some of our horses obviously are out and obviously the two of them are. We haven't found anything so we will stop with them and give them a rest and start again and see what will happen."

^^^^^ you'd be right and having just seen the tape, I thought OMR looked a big threat for a long way, JFK never so. Watch the way Joseph rode SNA and Camelot in the Racing Post Trophy, went through the race in a similar manner on OMR to about 4 out.

There is likely a day in at least one of those horses, I'd be 90% sure they've both ragdolled a lead gelding at home that would probably win most of the Group 3s run in Ireland this year.

Wouldn't like to see either again until at least the Irish Derby, after even. JFK might be gone a bit weak, growing maybe, big horse I hear.

Very well said neill,There's no way that's as good as they are,I'm not having that,Convinced there's something amiss somewhere,
That's not to say i think there good enough to win the top Group 1 races,But certainly better than what they've produced on track so far this season.

I am not sure you're comparing apples with apples here lads.

St.Nicholas's abbey disappointing 3YO return was to be beaten on seasonal debuts in the Guineas by 3.5 lengths over 1 mile (obviously) on good to firm ground. Disappointing with the hype that surrounded him and what he done subsequently but not that bad a run really on firm ground over a mile on seasonal debut

Is it a fair comparison to draw an analogy between that and JFK/Ol man river getting absolutely hammered on their second runs of the season in the dante? Some mitigation for OMR for how he traveled maybe.

Kingsbarns would be a recent example of one that didn't really show again albeit he completely missed his early 3 yo engagements.

Even moderate 3 year old like Rodderick O'Connor/Power improved from their seasonal debuts to win poor Irish Guineais on their second starts.

What was the last decent 3yo to come out of Ballydoyle that had completely bombed on their first 2 starts of their 3yo season?

I would imagine JFK is finished.

Temperamental to post, and again at the gate on both runs. Ungainly head carriage when pressure applied at Leop. Ground and seasonal debut being offered as excuses for that, he was worse yesterday.

Rumplestiltskin didnt transfer her 2yo form to her Classic year. She did onlt have the one run, but one would think the 'boys' seen enough at home and in that run to know she hadn't trained on.

Maybe JFK would benefit from the snip, but this wont happen, and I wouldn't be at all surprised if the concoct an 'injury' and retire him. 

On yesterdays performance, I wouldn't back him to beat your average 20 stone dole bludger to the collection office of a Tuesday afernoon.

JFK for the Fred Winter. Josephs first festival winner.

Yeah Kingsbarns is much a better example, though I was addressing whether OMR ever looked a threat in the race but couldn't really mask my true feeling that I think they both could still be very good, was just pointing out that Joseph always rode the 2 horses he is most readily associated with from behind travelling kindly like OMR did.

I can't think of one re the two blow-outs which is a bad sign I must admit.

I find with O'Brien, for all of the piss taking we give him re a new superstar every year, when he says one is very good, they tend to be by and large.

St Nick and F&G came back from bad runs as older horses. He also turned Haradusun and Starspangledbanner inside out from their first runs, but none are like the two above I'd have to say.

Is the nearest we've seen to the above One Cool Cat, he turned him around to an extent. Got George Washington back for a QEII as well.

Nothing really on a like for like basis, though.

Duke of Marmalade never bombed, but they found problems in his legs and think they had some kind of pins temporarily inserted and then removed again. Came back a world-class horse at 4. Tenuous enough link there but AOB is saying they have to figure out what is wrong.

We both should have been in school for One cool cat Neil (11 years ago),had a look over his form there dropped to sprint distances to win a group 3 so a bit different but can't find the IR low to see were the other runs due to a lack of stamina, can't recall the runs tbh

I suppose it's easier to make some mitigation for OMR with the quick turnaround (hardly had a tough race at NM though) and how he traveled but very difficult to see JFK coming back imo.

Any sign of those Rip Van winkle sons that AOB was raving about late last year,Father frost maybe?

How's your potential favourite stallion (son of Tagula) getting on with his first crop?

Rip Van Winkle seems to be getting speed horses.

Father Frost - After race at Cork Mon, 20th Apr, 2015 (1st) "He has always been a nice horse and has shown a lot of speed. He can be free but settled real nice and I think six or seven furlongs is his optimum trip".   A P O'Brien

Father Frost runs in the opener at Navan on Sunday over 5F (nearly 6f) with JOB down to ride,

Rip Van Winkle was a tough horse,he was a right 10 furlong horse,his win in the Benson and Hedges testament to that.

I never saw him as a sire of sprinters.

The Happy Prince is a son of his,carried top weight in the Woodlands handicap over six furlongs in Naas on Wednesday.

Indeed we were DJ, One Cool Cat took a right few quid off a few in my year, myself included. Dubawi as well, you'd think we'd learn. Think that turned a few even more to the jumps!

On temperament, you'd hear stories about **** and how tough he could be as time went on, he missed a lot as well and had a propensity to run like a shopping cart.

I think it is underestimated what a fast horse Rip was when he was right like in the Sussex, he had foot problems as we know. Wouldn't surprise to see his show plenty of speed. Galileo has gotten maybe the fastest horse ever and others like New approach were Guineas placed! Father Frost is in at Navan on Sunday, has some massive entries (snap). I remember lads on the bloodstock forum saying Rip had a very lengthy, middle-distance look to him when they went to see him. Like a horse that wins first time up in Ireland, Fluff (1st go) and kissed by angels have looked great to me, former with no experience; their fillies look good to me this season.

Bit early yet I guess, but I'd like to see something from Canford by high summer at the latest. You'd imagine he has about two good books and won't have gotten near the real classy 1m + mares.

Y e a t s, just making the point that AOB has seen it all and wouldn't put much beyond him if there is a racehorse in there.

I'd say he'd have gotten a rake of fast mares wildman as there'd be plenty with the same perception of him as yourself and like Canford he wouldn't get the quality mares, either.

I think speed and precocity can sometimes be lumped together incorrectly. Could see him maybe siring fast horses that need a bit of time.

Kissed by angels was very impressive during the week,she was well punted at Limerick on her debut run behind a Wachman/Jp filly with good 2 yo form.

Some right fillies around this year,how impressive was PLeascach at Naas? Couldn't believe she was 7/4 the night before with the diamonds and rubies and Bocca Bacciata run,Bolger's filly goes for the Ribblesdale at Ascot and Lucidia for the 1000g.

I have to say I agree with a comment Tony 57 made about Ruby's pause while pulling the whip through behind Tony Martin's one during the week, don't care what anyone says the shackles are of for him during the Summer.

I couldn't believe my eyes when Lucida was reeled in by Wachman's at Newmarket. Saw the Irish 1000 is Boccas main target as well according to Harrington. Pleascach looked monstrous to me the other night. Bolger is probably as well to go Ascot to Irish Oaks rather than rush her. Kissed By Angels was talked of by the books in terms of Oaks at Epsom, she looked really fast to me, more Irish 1000. Owners have the Guineas winner for either as well, interesting to see where they slot in but I'd rather step up Wachman's to 12f.

One thing on Lucida, she was seriously well backed n the weeks leading up, raced like she was cherry-ripe and had a real hard time, wonder was that the best we'll see of her for a bit? and I'm a fan.

The Racing Post analysis on Ted Veale said Ruby should have been sharper but then absolved him in the next breath by saying that the real Ted Veale would have picked up Miley Shah whatever. That was a really handy 12k hurdle and the fact he went off 5/4 looks telling to me. the likes of Ted veale are really well catered for here with your rated/conditions hurdles and amateur Flat races. Maybe they're trying to shave off a few pounds for the Galway Hurdle with a few "dull" performances.

Bolger emphasised how difficult it is to prepare one for the Newmarket Guineas in the interview the other night.

Found on better ground will be a completely different preposition.I would like to see her in Irish guineas but not sure if it's still the plan? Giovanni Canaletto runs in the gallinule

It would be nice to know for certain what Coolmore will run in the Epsom Oaks,can't see them not winning it.

I'd agree with you about Legatissimo,she wasn't stopping over 10 F on soft ground by any means. I would be tempted by the 4/1 with PP but the ownership and my faith in Wachman would temper any of that enthusiasm (even though he does relatively well with fillies)

Giovanni Canaletto runs in the gallinule now (very close to Epsom),remember the hype a couple of years ago when Jan Vermeer romped home in that.

Oh jeez yeah, Jan Vermeer, Christ I don't know has anyone ever admitted backing that horse;

I wonder was Giovanni maybe a later in the year/leger horse that has been pushed to the forefront but the work reports are good. Pat Keane said that Order of St George was supposed to be going very well before the Derrinstown, I've never taken to him, though.

Wachman can be a little paint-by-numbers for me as well, competent and with a nice CV, but wouldn't know what he was looking at in the way of a Weld/O'Brien.

He's getting better. 10 furlongs next time Group 3.

Sold to race in the states!

which one Chel

JFK, recently done some work at Santa Anita on the dirt, will be standing at stud in Argentina in the not too distant future

Sure he will be covering polo ponies