Was Barry Connell a better jockey......than Danny Mullins is today......

dont often agree with you but in this occasion i will

Thought it was comical.  He was craping himself coming to the last.  I backed the winner so i was delighted but he should have won easily.  Awful ride.  He is getting a bit better but still looks awful over fences.

I wouldnt comment on their relative merits a a jockey but Barry obviously could teach him a thing or two about making money. However Danny would probably beat him hands down when it comes to buying/selling/owning horses

Tbf its great that enthusiasts like Barry support Irish racing as he does. I would imagine he pays his taxes also unlike some.

bigwillystyle is right.....he is getting better......but he is starting from a low base.....

I must say it's not often that I think a ride is poor but having been down in Mallow with a few bob on the winner I thought he was never going to beat Danny's mount. Basically I said straight after the race Danny got Katie D beat not Dessedtothenines.

Now fair is fair and I thought 15 months ago he gave Faltering Fullback a monster ride to win the Kerry National to balance it up.

Thinking back he did me a good turn at Fairyhouse last weekend on Foxrock a once paced beast.

I think he has improved no end as a rider. Having made the progression from the flat he looked a little light early on but he has really strengthened up and his three winners for Barry the weekend before last were testament to that. His general handling of MOunt Benbulben (who admittedly fell last time) has also been notable.
On balance a much improved jockey. Did he give Kates Benefit a below par ride? - perhaps
It does not however warrant a title to the thread such as this.
These guys do this for a living and dont need us here knocking them to the level of suggesting they are worse than a 50 year old amatuer

Culdesac.........no racing professional would pay a blind bit of notice to the crap spouted on here. The country is littered with barstool trainers, jockeys and self confessed experts. Oh and name droppers.

Very fair and totally agree he is getting better Culdesac,easy to knock anyone on the spur of the moment particulary if it costs you but a tough,brave job at the end of the day and they don,t the criticism thats directed at them in a lot of cases.

I presume Barry O'Connell is a good judge of a jockey, I don't think he would be putting Danny up on his expensive purchases if he didn't think he was up to the job.

I do agree in hindsight that he should've fired Kates benefit over the last fence instead of nursing her over it as Dressedtothenines was building up momentum from behind, whether the horse would've won or not is up for debate.

Of course they deserve the criticism.  A lot of them are very well paid to do their jobs.  Some of them are poor enough at it too.  Are you telling me he didnt gve it a shocker in Cork??  Oh but wait because they do a dangerous job we should never criticise.  F  u  ck off with that tone

What do want the man to do? Always good,average and poorish jockeys,most are in it for the love of the game,they are not well paid.Agree that i always thought he was poor but as Culdesac says is getting better,fair dues.Bigwillie i,d say you are some man on a horse that would have no hesitation at throwing your mount at a fence at 35mph.

Barry Connell pays the bills, end of. Most of the better jockeys were retained one way or another so why not employ a lad you know and trust.

It will be easy to identify the clueless on this thread.......anybody in the danny camp is obviously so......
culdesac.....quite obviously he isn't worse than barry Connell was.....but I think most get my point.....he is one from three in graded company on mount benbulben......big swing......and you will see the real danny as we did in down royal.....next time in the king George.....he is riding good horses but he is far from being a top rider.....in fact one of the worst rides this season was by him on a winner in Naas......if he wasn't called mullins he wouldn't be considered for these rides.....any anybody who knows anything about the game knows he is a real liability against the top 6 or 7 jockeys in this country.....
As for barry Connell being a good judge of a jockey.....obviously not so......why would anybody feel the need to retain him.....its not as if anybody else would want him for a big race.....

Barry Connell is a friend of the family,has ridden out for Tony for years saw Danny growing up obviously likes him so gave him the job.

Danny Mullins is a decent flat jockey,he is a poor chase jockey but is improving.

It is an act of loyalty but one that will cost Barry Connell at some stage.

Gant 07.....what was wrong with brian cooper riding our conor.....the stable jockey who has won the triumph hurdle on him.....a young jockey going places.....a polished rider.....with Cheltenham experience.....and experience of winning there......that is criminal.....and is an act that will get its just rewards.....and maybe even has already......

Nothing wrong with Bryan Cooper riding Our Conor but is he not No.2 man for Gigginstown.

and what in gods name has that got to do with anything.....gigginstown haven't even got a horse being mentioned for the champion hurdle......not to mind two of them.....I will guarantee that every day our conor runs with danny mullins on it.....cooper will be sitting in the weigh room.....

Silver if a jockey is not willing to fire a horse at a fence he has no business riding.  He wasnt going 35MPH as you suggest.  By the  time he got to the fence he was doing about 5MPH as he was tugging it back from about 200 yards from the fence.

Agree that B Cooper should have kept the ride,he seems to get on very well with the horse,Barry O'Connell got one of the biggest hatchet jobs ever in racing by J Mc Cririck after the supreme with Dunguib, the man did nothing wrong that day the horse was over hyped and has shown after exactly what he was.

PA go back to bed.  It was Brian not Barry who rode Dunguib and he deserved the flak he got.  Gave it a shocker.

I'm sure Michael or Eddie O'Leary didn't even know that back then.........speculation. Bryan has put his hat in the Gigginstown ring.
And yes he is a far better jockey than Danny Mullins.

You,re right there BWS, I might come back later.

Brian Cooper second only to Ruby Walsh and a big threat to Davy Russell.
Will have the Gigginstown job shortly.

Brian Cooper is a top jockey.....the other fellow is so so ordinary.....anyway its crystal clear Connell hasn't a bulls.....look at some of his trainers......he has at least 2 or 3.....that you wouldn't send to the shop for sweets.....

Tony Mullins is one of the most personable racing,widely popular and a great judge of a horse but he is not a trainer lacks the dedication.He is however a personal friend of Barry Connell which is why he gets the odd horse,the friendly match is another matter,an imposter who has been found out his business with a Carlow vet is going to do for him.

paulie i agree to a certain extent re barry but he has talent for something..a very rich man. nh horses are his hobby.along with mick o leary and jp were lucky to have them irish racing would be on its knees but for them.if he wants danny thats his perogative.same as yer man that owns long run.puts up his son and fcuk the begrudgers..

I dont wish to get into an argument on this one but ..... Barry Connell is entitled to put whoever he likes up on his horses. Mount Belbulben has had 10 chase runs and one could say he is a difficult ride. Danny has ridden him four times winning on him twice including a grade one win. Different jockeys rode him in his six other chase starts. Most of these were mickey mouse races and they could only win once one him.

I dont wish to get into an argument on this one but ..... Barry Connell is entitled to put whoever he likes up on his horses. Mount Belbulben has had 10 chase runs and one could say he is a difficult ride. Danny has ridden him four times winning on him twice including a grade one win. Different jockeys rode him in his six other chase starts. Most of these were mickey mouse races and they could only win once one him.

You could look at this few ways. From O Connells perspective, he is obviously a decent, loyal sort, in it for the love of the game, who obviously has an affinity with the Mullins family, and is more than happy to have Danny riding all his horses.

From a punters perspective, in say the case of Our Conor, I think he could be upward of a 10lb disadvantage to the horse come CH day. There are a number of ways you wouldn't have to try to hard to envisage, for him being the reason he gets beat. The simplest, is will he have him jumping with anywhere near the same fluency?? From the punters perspective, he clearly wouldn't be the one to be on board, and as this hasn't been factored into the price as yet, I haven't backed him. With Cooper on board I would back him at current odds.

Danny did look a very promising pilot as a 7lb claimer winning feature races at the Galway festival years ago. But that is as far from a Champion Hurdle as you can get, and the anticipated progress has not been made. I dont think he has the intelligence or natural ability to be a top jockey, and unless Our Conor has a stone in hand, these deficiencies will be found out in the cauldron of the Champion hurdle.

A similar case , though not quite on as large a scale, would be William Buick. As a 7/5lb claimer, I had him down as a very promising jock for the future, one who spoke very intelligently, and hence would progress. This he has done, but like Mullins, when you get a top job, retained to a top owner or trainer, you need to rise to a different level, and he hasn't either. In my opinion in Buicks case, its lack of balls that is costing him(and consistently lately, The Fugue), in Dannys case, he just isn't good enough, with quite a few reasons being for that.

But we don't own the horses, so we don't choose who rides them. But we can choose not to back one because someone who we deem to be inept is on board. Everything has a price, and if you believe that Danny is a liability, until what you believe that liability to be, has been factored into the price, well then its a no bet. I hate lads giving out about a jock, whether it a lady rider, amateur etc, after a race, when you knew who was riding it, and their downfalls beforehand.

still reckon cooper will ride it in ch hurd..

Having looked through this thread I've come to the conclusion that silver is slipping up.Where is his "its horses win races not jockeys" contribution?

All jockeys make mistakes and that includes the big boys, but most of the time tolmi the best horse does win regardless and that is an undisputed fact, you simply can't make a slow horse go any faster.

The amount of times a jockey actually makes a difference is minimal so I never factor the jockey into my betting.

I'm only winding you up silver.While I am in agreement that the majority of the time the best horse wins it's the race where jockeys fail to appreciate that the pace is too fast/slow and are in the wrong position because of it that annoy me..Even worse you have the jockey who persists in going up the rails on the fancied horse in the 6th race on churned up winter ground with the first 5 races having been won by the horse racing widest.

Sometimes the best rides are those when the jockey does something small and it appears that he was on the best horse yet if he hadn't changed tactics mid race he would have been beaten.

an excellent post by callitascuit.......a breath of fresh air for this place......somebody who can see it the way it is.....and theres other people saying barry Connell pays the piper.....that may be so....but that doesn't make it a nice song.....and what has his ability to make money got to do with anything.....he is clearly wealthy....but he isn't bad at throwing it away either......

i agree again with you paulie..the point i was making is hes entitled to throw it away..silver in a race lik the ch hurdle a  good jockey is v important..surely even ou would concede that presenting a horse seeing a stride etc..one missed hurdle and ur fcuked usually.theres only 8 of them!

yes kavvie......barry Connell is entitled to do as he pleases......perfectly entitled to use jockeys that nobody else would use at that level......perfectly entitled to use bum trainers......it is after all his loot......but in any game when you don't give yourself the best chance of being triumphant......you rarely are.....and I for one wont be sorry for him either......not that hes a bad fella or anything.....its just that he will get what his decisions deserve.......

Mr Colin Magnier, Jimmy Frost and Philip Carberry all won champion hurdles kavvie.

how many bad jockeys have lost one tho silver..hundreds

How about McCoy on Binocular in 2009, surely the best horse lost that day kavvie?

ye he gave him a bad ride.overconfident.

but a great ride from bg on punjabi..took to the sting out of binocular to an extent..it worked

Agree tried to win cleverly got outpaced and stayed on strongly at the finish, the following year no messing about he kicked on between the last 2 flights and stormed home.

i backed binocular in 2010 so im glad from a betting point of view..he would have been 6/4 in 2010 if he had won 2009..inches etc!!

Wasn't that the year kav that the horse was ruled out of the Champion by Henderson, went over to McManus place to be treated by the Coolmore vet, I'm not sure what the Coolmore vet done?, but within a fortnight the horse was transformed and back in the Champion picture, the rest is as they say history.

I can't agree that he gave him a bad ride in 2009.He was in a perfect position turning in but the horse hung fire until running on again in the last 100 yards.Remember this was a horse that had the flat speed and there was no way Mc Coy could have expected him to take as long as he did to pick up.

I also seem to remember he was criticised for hitting the front too soon in the 2008 Supreme.

he prob thought of 2008 in 2009 tolmi..it just looked as if it was overconf..an average jump at the last didnt help..in 2010 i had bino backed ew at 10s after xmas for ch hurd.jp was interviewed during leopardstown and he seemed v sweet on him.it looked gone when he got ruled out..he came back into it and  i went in again at  9s..i also laid fav in the race..pleasant memorys..nice when it goes right.

I'd say you could be right about 2008 being in his mind kavvie.I think he was perfectly happy turning in travelling well in behind 2 hard ridden rivals.I'd imagine don't get there too soon was what was going through his head.

McCoy doesn't make mistakes only Robbie Power and Danny Mullins make mistakes?, I guarantee if either one of them had been on Binocular in 2009 the forum would've went into meltdown.

Paulie would've been frothing from the mouth, close to going into a seizure state.

Just seen on the main forum, Binocular retired.

I wasn't saying that the forum would not have gone into meltdown.It probably would have done.All I'm saying is that I didn't think it was a bad ride.Is that allowed?

Of course you're entitled to your opinion tolmi, I just disagree, in hindsight McCoy should've kicked on earlier like he did the following year.

Had he the benefit of hindsight when he was riding ? Or did he only have the knowledge that he hadn't got home the previous year when he did as you said?

Binocular (FR) 8/1C    4    10-13     Nicky Henderson    143    *    *    »
A P McCoy
   
In touch, tracked leaders 4th, challenged 2 out, slight lead soon after and still just ahead last, headed final 110yds but kept on well for 2nd (tchd 9-1 in places and 10-1 in a place),

Kept on well for 2nd, and 4+L's back to the third horse, suggests to me the horse got home alright just that Captain Cee Bee was just superior on the day.

When McCoy rode Binocular in 2009, the main doubt in his backers minds, was, would he get home?? He had come up the hill like a doubtful stayer, when beaten in a poor Supreme the year before, and his win at Aintere suggested he may be better on a flatter, more speed biased track.

Similar to When McCoy rode Best Mate, and was beaten by Florida Pearl, in the King George, he rode the horse as a doubtful stayer. He wasn't doing anything that backers wouldn't have wanted him to do(before the race). I backed Best Mate and Binocular in the respective races, and was happy with his positioning on both. Obviously hindsight shows that both were stronger stayers over the particular trips, than first perceived, but this information was available to neither us, nor AP beforehand. Therefore I find it hard to say Bino got a bad ride that day.
AP, like every other mortal, will make mistakes, but the difference between him, and the likes of Power, Mullins, Buick etc, is that he will learn from them, and very rarely repeat them. He has the intelligence, ability and bottle to ensure this.

I'm in agreement with you callitasucit.

With regard to the kept on well comment while he did keep on my recollection of the race is that from appearing all over a winner coming down the hill he did not find as much as expected when he hit the front.He was a ten furlong horse whose ability to get up the hill at the end of a true run race was unproven.Hindsight is something we would all love to have but apparently its hard to buy.

where did callitascuit come out of......the man makes perfect sense......which is most unusual on here......
silvergreaser......id say you'd be better off putting yer hooves up......and cracking open another tinny.......

Silver if AOB had put you up on Istabraq you'd have won at least a couple yourself!

Dec 10, 2013 -- 1:22PM, silvergreaser wrote:

All jockeys make mistakes and that includes the big boys, but most of the time tolmi the best horse does win regardless and that is an undisputed fact, you simply can't make a slow horse go any faster.The amount of times a jockey actually makes a difference is minimal so I never factor the jockey into my betting.

probably the worst comment I have ever read on here..

"probably the worst comment I have ever read on here.."

A very in debt reply, your argument to the contrary has me bowing down to your obvious superior intellect.

in debt? in debt to whom? However if you follow that ethos you'll be in debt to whoever you bet with. I can't be arsed getting into an argument but if you think a WP Mullin's horse (for example) has the same chance with Mr PW Mullins up as with Ruby Walsh up then perhaps you should bet on something else.
Tom Segal is a much better judge than I'll ever be, he believes jockey is the single most important factor when it comes to evaluating a race.

take my advice murphyjust......don't go there......yer beating yer head against the berlin wall......I had to block silver.....couldn't read any more of it....

Oh sorry did I mix up debt and depth again?, a simple typo.

Thats Tm Segal's opinion. I don't agree, I believe the horses ability or lack of is the single most important factor to factor in when having a bet.

Virtually any half decent jockey could win on all the hot shots Ruby Rides.

Do you think Patrick Mullins is the 4th best jump jockey in Ireland?, as thats where he finished in last seasons jumps table, or maybe the only reason he finished 4th was because he was riding a heap of penalty kicks for his Daddy?.

I genuinely don't think you've actually blocked me paulie, but I do feel if a person goes to the bother of blocking another poster its smacks of arrogance, where only your opinion and nobody else's need be heard.

Why do you think you're always right paulie?.

I know you won't reply because you're pretending you have me blocked.

silver will you ever stop making a show of urself?...just think about it..why do the leading trainers/owners retain a jockey and pay them large sums?..jp pays ap a lot of dough to ride his.would long run have won more with bg on him?course he would..the owner knows that.why doesnt jp just use an agent to get the best available?..its unreal what you believe..and ap ob/wpm are the same as the rest of them.if you had a promising 2 yo and apob offered to train it would you refuse and say no thanks ill get a local farmer to do it for me?!?..newbridge must be proud of you!

How the hell am I making a show of myself kavvie?, I'm giving what I think are genuine reasons why jockeys and trainers are often given inflated status when they're nearly completely dependent on the ability of a dumb animal.

I asked a question that deserves an answer, is Patrick Mullins the 4th best jump jockey in Ireland, he did finish 4th in the table did he not?.

Is Joseph O'Brien a better jockey than Mick Kinane because he broke his Irish record this year?, or had the ability of the horse have a huge bearings on those two eventualities I've mentioned above???.

I'm no more making a show myself than the man on the moon, what I'm saying makes perfect sense if you allow yourselves to remove the rose tinted glasses from time to time.

pw mullins isnt the 4th best jockey  in ireland buts a good competent jockey...jp o brien isnt as good as mick kinane was but none were to my mind..jp is still top 5 in ireland..whats your point..

pw mullins isnt the 4th best jockey  in ireland buts a good competent jockey...jp o brien isnt as good as mick kinane was but none were to my mind..jp is still top 5 in ireland..whats your point..

My point is simple kavvie if some other competent rider had ridden all of PW Mullins horses last season he too would've finished 4th in the jumps table, and if some other capable jockey was riding all of Josephs mounts he too would've broke MicK Kinanes record with ease.

its nonsensical.and if you cant see that theres something amiss with you.what your saying is the weakest link in a team is not the best there is in that position.say the barcelona team..bad example maybe they are so good..but they got a guy who plays in ronaldos position..hes on and off the team..alexis?..just cause he winning all them medals and awards etc.but is he the best out there?no..hes part of a team.same with pwm and job..cn you get y point..

Nonsensical?

I genuinely think Patrick Mullins is a pretty average jockey who has improved somewhat because he is riding good horses for Daddy.

He doesn't go for the stick as quickly as he used to and butcher them home, and doesn't seem to hit them down the ribcage as often either, doesnt escape the fact if he was riding for some other trainer other than his father he wouldn't even register on the jockeys table.

Good horses win races and a very average jockey like Patrick Mullins is as good a proof as you're ever likely to get.

Consider this Silvergreaser. Joseph O'Brien last Wednesday at Dundalk won four races for four different trainers, non of whom were his father.

Antiquus on whom he has 3 rides and 3 wins had previously been beaten on 8 occasions when ridden by other jockeys.

Deep Speed on whom he has two rides 1 win 1 2nd had been beaten 4 times under other riders.

Mountain Coral 1 win from 1 ride, had been beaten 9 times when not ridden by him.

Habesh who he has ridden twice 1 win 1 unplaced had 8 defeats when ridden by other jockeys.

Picking and choosing isolated examples, probably proves nothing, but you started it.

yoursomean with all due respect what has Joseph riding a 4 timer for 4 different trainers got to do with Joseph breaking Mick Kinanes record?.

Has it escaped all your attention that Ballydoyles second and third choice jockeys have got less and less rides/winners since Joseph became a fully fledged jockey as Daddys nepotism has focussed all its energy towards his beloved.

Isolated examples?, I would think thats two very very strong examples that proves if you're riding most of the best horses you'll do an awful lot better than even much more talented jockeys than yourself.

My comment was aimed at your broader point that a jockey's ability has little influence on the outcome of races.

Joseph is a very capable jockey but he is no better than most of the other professionals in the weighing room.

As with Patrick Mullins here we have 2 jockeys who have got on really well because of who they are, not because they're better just the horses they're riding are usually better than all the rest.

So Patrick Mullins is the greatest ever amateur jockey that ever landed on these shores?

Well he broke a record that was standing since 1915.

Thank you Daddy, you're a star....

Everything is relative Silver,compared to the likes of Mr JP Magner or Kate Harrington and a host of other amateurs young Patrick is a master horseman.

Couldn't be bothered reading it all, but Silver in a way you seem to giving evidence against yourself. If someone else rode everything that PMW did, I would be pretty sure(as are you I think), that they would have rode more winners, hence confirming that jockeyship is a vital component in the result of every race.
PMW is barely competent, and in all honesty the market rarely takes this fully into account. One prime example being in the Big money bumper on Irish National day, PMW rode a short priced fav, whilst Jane Mangan rode one at 9-2. Both had come from the point field, obviously, both had been the subject of glowing reports. The market was formed like so, simply because Willie trained one, and Elliot the other. What it didn't take into account was Jane is a 7lb better jockey than PMW, and yet she could claim 7lb into the bargain. I have no doubt that if PMW rode the winner instead of JM, we would have had a different result.
Not taking such info into account Silver is incompetence.
Pace is the single most important factor in any race. Who judges the pace? Yes, the jockey.
The amount of results each day that would be different if you ran them five different times, with 5 different jockeys on each horse, would be huge.
I agree in what is not an individual sport, as both horse and jockey give combined effort, it is hard to single out any one individual for more praise. But over time, the good and great become apparent, this is because they are consistently doing the right thing at the right time, and winning when others would be losing. This is why Ruby rode for Nicholls, and now for Willie. Its why JP pays a shedload to have AP. The list goes on. Yes, they ride the best horses, but because they have earned this right.
Obviously in some cases there are other reasons, nepotism being a common one. JPOB is not a bad pilot, but is not deserving of his position. PWM is next to useless, but all we can do is factor this into are analysis of a race and its market, before we make our decisions.
To not factor it in is idiocy imo.
If you thought a two runner race was evens each of two before looking at jockeys(which if what you say is true, you might not bother anyway), Mangan rode one claiming 5, and PMW rode the other, would it not drastically change your tissue on the race?? This is an extreme example, but highlights the importance of a jockey when making your tissue/decision.
Danny Mullins at Cheltenham in a Champion Hurdle could prove a similar handicap. Are you telling me that you would price him the same regardless of whether DM, Cooper, or Ruby rode it??

Callit, PW Mullins has improved as a jockey over time but it helps enormously if you're riding good horses, good horses usually have you in the thick of the action so its easier to learn from your mistakes if you're riding good horses than been tailed off all the time.

As far as I'm concerned there has been a lot more talented amateur jockeys than PW Mullins but because they hadn't got the connections they find themselves riding a lot of no hopers.

Brings me back to my original argument that the horses ability is the most important factor in horse racing for both jockey and trainer.

One top class horse could transform any journeyman trainer or jockeys career, but as always within racing who you're connected with often decides who occupies the seats at the top table.

As far as I'm concerned there has been a lot more talented amateur jockeys than PW Mullins

So you're saying that some jockeys are better than others?

Slabster read through the thread, PW Mullins finished 4th in the jockeys table last season with a remarkable 62 winners from 187 rides a 33% strike rate, better than even Rubys strike rate, finishing ahead of jockeys like Carberry, Cooper, Lynch among others, he also broke the long standing amateur record, while Joseph was making mince meat of Mick Kinanes record, if that is not overwhelming proof thats its all about the horses then I simply give up!!!.

I have read the thread.

How can you say it's all about the horses yet some jockeys are better than others?

It's mostly about the horses, but a jockey plays their part.

Would JP Magnier have rode all those winners? Or PJ McMahon?

No they wouldn't, but that doesn't mean Patrick is the fourth best jockey in Ireland. It's not black and white like you make it out to be.

jaysus silvergreaser you're some pain in the hole. I'd hate to get stuck with you in a pub, now give it up ffs

Definition of forum:

a place, meeting, or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged."

It might have escaped your notice that I didn't start this thread, and I have every entitlement to put in my 2 bobs worth, as have you murphyjust but like a lot of posters on here just because someones point of view doesn't subscribe to yours you revert to the lowest common denominator to try and claim some sort of moral victory.