USA sporting decline

Won't dominate Tennis like before (ie. 60s/70s/early 80s) -  but have enough youngsters in Women's game Sloane Stephens (in particular) and Madison Keys who are probably the best out there at the moment in terms of up-and-coming.

Men's tennis definitely not as good a story - though Isner will be tough on the US hardcourts, other than that not a lot.

Medium to long-term wouldn't worry about them in terms of golf, men or women tbh - won't dominate as before but will win plenty - the rest had to catch-up sometime.

The real bottom line though is the VAST majority of American sports fans couldn't give a toss outside of NFL, MLB and the NBA. Once the NFL starts in September that's bascially it for everything else until February, outside of the World Series.

No interest in soccerball whatsoever (yankee friends don't mind playing but hate watching it, seen as a game for kids and girls, golf and tennis are niche sports to the majority (there was limited tv coverage of big cincinnati tournament die to clash with domestic sports).

English friends in the US naturally interested in the Olympics last year said there was no interest there other than, "did we get many medals?"......couldn't tell you name of athletes, boxers etc

*due to clash with domestic sports*

Btw, if there was an equivalent Europe vs Asia in womens' golf, there would only be one winner - and it wouldn't be us!

US golfers may lose to Europe in team events, but still have much better careers individually.

Bottom line is , generally the Americans are pretty insular , and that includes sport .

So generally most of the rest of the world does not play American football , baseball , or basketball .  So the Americans are world champs at these .  So thats the one they are interested in ( largely the only ones they are interested in ) .  American culture is geared to winners , but hey those pesky foreigners are better than us at tennis , soccer ,rugby , athletics , etc etc , so runs the mantra  , so we will concentrate on our "own " sports . Guaranteed to win then .

But in world sport the winners spectrum is changing .  So now a lot of the best tennis players in the world are not from USA , Australia , who between them at one time owned most of the major star players  , male and female .  The Aussies now are crap at tennis , amazing for a nation with all the facilities and physical attributes to produce tennis players . Also given the number of American "academies" concentrating on tennis , they are not producing great native players .

Vubiant , have been asking that question re Irish lady golfers for as long as I have been on Betfair ( and before that ) .  Given the number of females playing golf in Ireland , the support they get from the GUI and the individual clubs , the lack of top class golfing ladies is poor . Nobody I know can explain it , when we have a fairly steady procession of fine young male golfers .

"American culture is geared to winners , but hey those pesky foreigners are better than us at tennis , soccer ,rugby , athletics , etc etc , so runs the mantra  , so we will concentrate on our "own " sports . Guaranteed to win then ".

Wrong and frankly laughable (sorry). It's not a question on them concentrating on their "own" sports because they can't win at others. If they won the World Cup, most of them still couldn't care less about soccer.

Worlds Tennis No.1 and by far best player is American, World Golf No. 1 is Amercian, they still win more golf majors than any other country, do alright at Athletics. Still doesn't matter - they just don't care in general. Like to see it, but doesn't really matter.

People read far too much into this and find it hard to see pass the obvious - they genuinely prefer their own games, and that's what they are passionate about. For example, Philadelphia Eagles @ NY Giants, Baltimore @ Pittsburgh Steelers in the NFL matter big-time......USA  vs Brazil in the World Cup, just doesn't. It's not right/wrong, good/bad just the way it is.

Do you think they was a conspiracy the rest of the world are better at sports A, B, and C, sh1t, lets just play our own..

*in Women's Tennis - Serena Williams*

Have to disagree. Yes Americans win the majors in golf regularly but where are 3 of the majors played every year? That has to be an advantage surely.

Their interest in their "own sports" is to their disadvantage on a world stage. If Usain Bolt was American, they'd have strapped the pads to him and he'd be a wide reciever. Atheltics, tennis, soccer etc are too far down the line for apsiring sporting youngsters and that is to do with culture.

Its a vicious cycle and unless a superstar emerges that inspires the next generation to go down that route they'll not find the next Samprass, Agassi, Michael Johnson etc.

But really only sport they underachieve at moment is Mens tennis. Cycling they produced a "7 time world champion" on recently, the produce plenty of top class athletes in Summer and Winter olympics. Whats the problem?

I do think Americans are bad losers just like the Aussies and one of the major reasons they stick with "their" games over international games is they hate to lose. They cannot abide seeing Americans get their "butt kicked" so they watch sports and consume sports where that cannot happen.

The Aussies are the same hence why they have turned their backs on Rugby Union and watch AFL and Ruby League first and have stopped putting cricket on a pedastal anymore

one of the major reasons they stick with "their" games over international games is they hate to lose. They cannot abide seeing Americans get their "butt kicked" so they watch sports and consume sports where that cannot happen.

Nonsense, with respect.

As Wallflower states they simply prefer their traditional sports which are established and engrained in the national conscience.

Shaggykev, I'm not quite with who/with what you are disagreeing.

-  I agree with you, if Usain Bolt was Amercian he certainly would have pads on him (but that supports my point)
-  You point out that its only in Men's Tennis that they are under-achieving.....not really in decline, and I think backs up one of my points that in many cases its more a case of the world catching-up

However the point you make (similar to Kelly's) - "one of the major reasons they stick with "their" games over international games is they hate to lose. They cannot abide seeing Americans get their "butt kicked" so they watch sports and consume sports where that cannot happen". - is just plain wrong.

International sports are not on their radar because there is no room for anything else - and for no other reason. It's historical. With the advent of international sport (1890s - 1930s) the US was already consumed with Baseball, and that has built-up its own history, after that college football and then the NFL got their attention. then came Basketball.

All the sporting rivalries, traditions and fan-bases have already been set-up. There is little room for anything else. That's all, and it's unlikely to change. The great international sport is soccer, and they just don't like it in comparison to their own games, nothing to do with competitiveness (by the way, they're better than us).

A more extreme example is India. 4 times the population of US, nearly a quarter of the entire World's population and they are practical useless at everything except Cricket. I've been there - and there is NOTHING except cricket. UEFA Champions league final would get a few lines 4 to 5 pages from the back. What Sachin Tendulkar had for breakfast would take the full two previous pages.

As I said, not right/wrong, good/bad.....just the way it is, and no "psychological" reasons whatsoever.

Took me 10 lines to say what Ozy did in 1. 

...and to think I lectured Kelly on brevity one time

Vubiant got it right first time. The rest of the World caught up, pure and simple. It won't be too long before the start getting rolled in the Basketball at the Olympics either imo

Possibly, but the point I'm making is that they don't actually care.

NBA fans might care a bit, but USA as a basketball team means nothing to them compared to their home teams - Lakers, Knicks, 76ers etc.

I doubt many US teenagers have a poster of the US Basketball team on their bedroom wall, and go as far as to say, and you might find this hard to believe - many mightn't even know such a team existed.

Correct me if I'm wrong  , but is tennis not a "traditional " American sport ? Loads of tennis clubs in USA , lots of tennis academies , lots of nice pads with tennis courts in the back garden . When I was an emergent sports fan , USA tennis players were occupying a lot of the top 10 spots world rating wise , they also supported a big professional circuit when no one else did . Fact is , as posted previously , Americans only want to follow winners , now that they cant produce tennis players they have given up on tennis ( 2 ethnic sisters aside ) .  But twas not always thus , that is a history lesson .

The fact than nobody else plays American football means that it will be enshrined as the "American " game in their national psyche  , and will attract the sponsorship , money , media attention , political genuflection etc etc . They are welcome , I'll stick to hurling  , even if the rest of the world prefers other sports .

You're not wrong - but you're missing the point - the rest of the world has caught with the US in terms of Tennis; and as said before - they look to be in good shape on the Women's side, but not the men. So what?! They haven't given-up at all, it's just harder to dominate when Europe in particular seems to have bridged the gap.

The point you are missing is even when strong in Men's tennis it was was still not mainstream to them. Even when McEnroe/Connors / Evert and whoever were in their prime it was only big time around the majors, and as McEnroe still describes the timings and matches of the US Open were (and are still) shuffled around to avoid as little clashes as possible with the NFL.

In the very same way hurling is your sport (which nobody else plays), NFL/NBA/MLB is theirs and leave them to it. It's nothing to do with winning / losing - it just what they are into - that's all.

It always seem to me that there is this resentment in the rest of the world that yanks prefer their own games (which they genuinely do) and most of them don't give a fiddlers outside of those sports, and "foreigners" make-up all sorts of psych-babble rubbish to explain it. It's not a snub, it's just what they prefer, and having 3 main sports (and maybe a 4th in Ice Hockey) just takes up too much space and news for anything else to get too much of a look-in.

The thread title is "USA sporting decline " wallflower . Anyone who cant see a huge decline in their tennis ability does not live in the real world . Specifically the mens game , but also the womens game --take the ethnic sisters out and there is nothing left .  The rest of the world has just not caught up , USA has not produced a tennis player in the last 25 years within a beagles gowl of those you reference ( Connors , McEnroe ) . That is a decline , ignore it if you like , but its fact .

And its not confined to tennis .  Track and field also languish relatively and is no spectator or media interest  , in a nation that gave us Jim Thorpe , Jesse Owens , Carl Lewis , Michael Johnson etc .  They only produce good ethnic sprinter types now , anything over 400 metres is too far to run .  They are good in the relays though .

Reference the golf , historical  posts on the golfing forum will reveal long held views on the USA players . Their record in the Ryder Cup indicates a decline , now its the Solheim Cup , USA Amateur golf final last week was between an English golfer and an Aussie golfer . Take out Tiger , Duval , Phil and there are a lot of journeymen about compared with the past when Jack competed against the best ( most of whom were USA players ) .  Thats the standard .  I know things go in cycles , but when your cycle seems to be going uphill instead of downhill , its worth taking a look at the vehicle , provided you care enough . Which I doubt they do .

-  Should called the thread "Decline in US Men's Tennis" - because that's about it (women's world no.1 is American)
-  World No.1 is golf is American, just checked 8 of last 20 majors won by Americans (7 different players and that excludes Tiger - some decline !!(Of course, if it was just 2 or 3 winners, you'd say excluding A,B, and C there is no depth - you can't have it both ways).

But it's all irrelevant - improvement in sporting facilities worldwide means US won't dominate in a whole range of sports as before, and that's a good thing. It's not a decline. 

- They'll always produce golfers, sooner or later they'll have a top male tennis player, they've  a better chance of getting to QFs of World Cup than we have, they'll have good skiers, athletes, synchronised swimmers!! But my MAIN POINT is - if you think sports fans in the US are going to be concerned that they may be under-performing in athletics, tennis, or whatever they are not. They are more than happy to let Kelly on the Betfair forum worry about it. They couldn't give a flying..........

"US Sporting Decline" - no issue, yeah whatever. For example -  "NY GIANTS lose 3 in a row at home" - Now THAT'S a CRISIS!

Couldn't care less about the US sports fans , wallflower . Lots of them are just loud mouths  , tune into the US golf coverage any average night and listen .  Even their commentators complain about "their " fans .

Re relative merits of various sports mentioned , you have just not being reading the posts properly .That Serena is world no 1 does not detract from the fact that there is no depth in their womens tennis .  They used to have nearly all the top spots , when the Williams girls pack it in the cupboard will be bare .

You pick out Tiger as an example , ignoring the fact that even with Tiger aboard they have been beaten team wise by Europe regularly now , like wise their female golfers , once in complete control of womens golf world wide have been routed by Asian invaders at an individual level and team wise by European Solheim cup team .

America will always produce world performers in a lot of sports , but the debate here is about a general decline in their sporting ability , which is measured differently , largely in team terms .Their "home" sports cannot be measured against anything else , few others indulge in American football or baseball .  But they know that too , hence the adulation heaped on those sports , you can claim any standard if there is no opposition . Basketball is boring , so is American football which is a TV game nowadays . Any game which allows someone to run onto the pitch for 15 seconds and then off again is hardly a "game" in the proper sense of the word . Artificial .

Plenty of up and coming talent in US womens tennis.

hence the adulation heaped on those sports

That's utter nonsense too.

Ozy the 3 biggest US sports are American football , baseball ,and basketball .  Do you like /watch any of them ? And labelling something as nonsense is just an easy way out of proper debate .  Thought you might know that .

Ozy , take out Serena , and there are 2 USA female players in the top 30 in the world .  So where's the talent , or do you not look up these things before you post ?  The word nonsense might well fit your claim from what I see .

And if Rory's Caroline is anything to go by ( she is no 8 ) anyone below that aint up to much .

At times your statements don't merit proper debate.

Your posts are long and winding and at times nonsenical.  For example;

1. but the debate here is about a general decline in their sporting ability , which is measured differently , largely in team terms   Err no its not.  It is sports overall, combining both team and individual sports.

2. Their "home" sports cannot be measured against anything else , few others indulge in American football or baseball .  But they know that too , hence the adulation heaped on those sports Codswallop.  They love these sports because they have grown up with them and they are engrained in their national conscience

I could work my way through your post in such a manner but what would be the point?  Eventually it will boil down to some annecdote about some fella you played inter-county against.

Regarding up and coming US women's tennis see wallflowers post of 11.50.

Nonsense, eh?

Ok,

We'll ignore the fact the Womens Tennis No.1 (and for forseeble future) is American, and have the best young female players at the moment. They are in decline? Well so must everyone else!

With all due respect to the Ryder Cup - 8 out last 20 majors (with Tiger on zero) is more of an indication of strength than an bi-annual tournament. 7 different players - how is that for strength in depth?

Asian women golfers are ahead of both US and Europe - therefore US sports are in decline - give me a break. Do you have any idea where women's golf is in US sporting mindset. I would safely say the vast majority of US Sports fans don't even know what the Solheim Cup is.

I don't like Basketball, but mine and your opinion of any "their" games is of no consequence whatsoever.

The issue here is that you are basing your/psuedo-European view of sporting prowess and applying it to a sporting nation who are not playing by the same rules. With all due respect you obviously have no idea of the mindset of the American sporting public. To an outsider it may seem insular and narrow - and it probably is from a certain perspective. As per previous mail - they have little or no interest in the Olympics even.

But again, so what? Their choice.......they are not measuring myself against anyone!! Comprendez-vous?

I'm not going to comment on your repeated claim that the only focus on their own spots because their is no opposition. its too ludicrous to be honest, and life is too short.

*"they are not measuring themselves against anyone else"*

ozy desperately looking for attention. 2 fellas having a debate and he can't just stay out of it

Well ozy , playing county is better than not playing it .

point 1 of yours contradicts yourself . General decline covers a spectrum , its about depth which often exhibits itself mainly in team efforts .  Tiger is a good example of a fantastic individual player unable to inspire a team of largely journeyman .

Anyone who thinks the USA golfers current crop are anywhere near their output of brilliant golfers back in Jack's day ( and before) just hasn't a clue about golf . Thats decline  , like it or lump it .

USA sport increasingly revolves around TV . Like our own , courtesy of Sky and the lack of drive associated with national television . The ingraining process devolves from that . There are lots of things ingrained in our national consciouscness ozy which are not necessarily worthy . The Romans loved the Colisseum and the Spaniards their bull fighting . Just because the Yanks like their sports does not make them "tops" world wide .

You still haven't acknowledged your bloomer re US womens tennis .

Personal abuse dont worry me ozy , lots of years living where I do toughens you up .

Busy at moment, will return to this....

Try reading Wallflowers post of 19.51 which makes perfectly rational common sense.

See my post of 19.47 which references Wallflowers post of 11.50.

There are lots of things ingrained in our national consciouscness ozy which are not necessarily worthy

I mean, seriously, when did the debate become about what is worthy or not...completely fcKn irrelevant.

Are you on the wind up here, kelly? Only way I can rationalise your posts?

I mean..playing intercounty is better than not playing intercounty..I mean what kind of banal innane comment is that....its the equivalent of pointing out that having teeth is better than not having teeth.

I give up.

Ozy look up the world womens tennis rankings .  Believe me there are only 2 USA women in the top 30 ( outside of Serena ) .  Suggest you dont take Wallflowers word on it .  Facts are facts .And if Caroline is No 8 , God help those from 9 down .

I am not taking wallflower word for it, you cretin.  Have you heard of or seen Sloane Stephens play?  Obviously not.

wooooow.......easy rocky.......easy.......

Whether or not I have seen her play OZY is irrelevant . There are 3 USA payers in the worlds top 30 .  Serena is out on her own , if fit . 2 others however good ( and only time will tell ) in the top 30 ( at 17 and 25 ) is paltry compared with USA womens tennis positions years ago .

When the term "decline " was in Vubiants opening post , there was no specific mention of time scales .  Wallflowers initial post more or less agreed with Vubiant , but presumably absolved the Americans because they were more interested in their own sports .  Thats their prerogative , but Vubiant was talking about sports where they compete against the world .

The reason I mentioned national consciousness ozy was because you introduced it , their sporting loves having become ingrained ( note the spelling from a cretin ) . Hence the reference to the Romans and the Spaniards , those sports were "in"grained in their psyche , anathema to me and most right thinking people . Just because they are ingrained does not up their value . Sometimes people just dont know any better , thats the point I make . Hence the hurling reference made on many occasions on these forums .

I can't devote anymore time to this discussion with you, sorry.  In truth, I find interacting with you a hugely exasperating experience, and will try my best not to respond to you where possible going forward.

Ozy, here a few certainties for ya. 1, is that Kelly makes far more on here than u. Goes without saying..the 2nd, is that having read the two of u on here for a decent length of time its obvious to me that when it comes to all-round sports knowledge, you couldn't hold a candle to him

you inserted yourself into this debate to have a go at Kelly, as you ve done before, and start to slag off the length of his posts, which are irrelevant as this is not Twitter ffs. You really have shown yourself to be an utter bellend. wd

kelly, its clear Ozy is an anti-social weirdo. A keyboard warrior is the term i'm after

If you have any contribution to make to the debate at hand, freddie, I am sure would all like to hear it.

Ironically, you erroneoulsy suggested that I entered the debate to have a go at kelly...whilst your own sole contribution to the conversation is to have a go at me?  I don't suppose you see the irony of that?

king rocky will be logging on shortly with his usual volley of childish abuse........oz for the record,my fellow county man kelly has owned you on this particular debate and that is very clear for all to see mate.....

ozy if i were u i'd try and save a little face by retracting the Cretin remark which you aimed at possibly the most knowledgeable forumite on irish forum

yeah, right, richters! 

I am in full agreement with the only other contributor to this thread, wallflower, who is also floundering in disbelief at the points kelly has made.

If I am honest, freddie, i cringe with embarrassment every time Kelly comes on the rugby forum to make a point. Cretinous would be a kind descriptin, tbh.

His posts are rambling, at times confusing and typically include an irrelevant annecdote centred around his own playing days.  If that's your cup of tea, then good luck!

would you describe someone posting the same drivel day in day out under 4 different usernames as cretinous iyo oz?

Richters, I have any no other username other than itcanbedone (GBP account).

if you sayso rocky....

ozy, I'd rather listen to a guy whos actually knowledgeable and wise ramble on for a while than a chap like yourself with impeccable grammar but with not a lot of content to contribute

i don't frequent the rugger forum, I've a good enough appreciation of the merits of kelly and yourself right here

I await your first effort at 'content' on this thread.

anyway the OP is spot-on. he left out that The Yanks don't win sprint gold medals any more, nor do they dominate boxing as they once did

The boxing one I would have to guess about , freddiek , but USA did produce some of the best boxers we have ever seen , at a lot of weights ( mid/heavy mainly ). Best of them in my lifetime was Sugar Ray Robinson , world title holder at 3 different weights over a 20 year plus career. And the inventor of the "entourage" .  Dont think they make them like that anymore .  Worth a look on you tube or wherever .  Makes a lot of todays guys look like they just wandered into a gym .

Kelly 21 Aug 13 19:40 
Ozy , take out Serena , and there are 2 USA female players in the top 30 in the world .  So where's the talent , or do you not look up these things before you post ?  The word nonsense might well fit your claim from what I see .

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Look-up the rankings and you therefore are an expert?.

You also need to look at profiles age, junior grand slams, vs top tens etc.  US have Sloane Stephens and Madison Keys. You'll see them in the top ten when you look in a couple of years time.....Stephens (guaranteed, may be a No.1) and Keys (proabably top 10) , and they have others.

Ask anyone who knows anything about WTA, which player 21 years or younger, is most likely to be a World No.1.......most will say Sloane Stephens (may not happen of course).

I didn't need to look anything up.

Ouch.

Richters and FreddieK will be along shortly to authoritatively inform Wallflower that he is being owned by Kelly on this thread.

Oh, perhaps to add insult to injury......Sloane Stephens the daughter of a former NFL running-back

Wallflower , everything is relative . If Wozniaki is no 8 , how good is 17 or 25 ? The measure of ability / sporting prowess is the opposition often . Apart from Serena and occasionally Sharapova the womens tennis is woeful , the worst standard in living memory . Maybe I am wrong in that assessment , but I doubt it . How they justify equal money with the men defies logic .

Don't think its correct to call it a sporting decline for the US in Golf and Tennis. Other countries have simply caught up. Forty years golf was played in America, Britain and Ireland and a few good Aussies. Global game now. Any good eastern European tennis players had to skip off to the states to play.

As to why there are no good Irish lady Pro golfers? Go down to your local club on Lady Captains ?Day, stand by the first tee for an hour and you'll get the answer. (to be fair its changing a bit and in ten years time I think there will be some)

In contrast , the top 4 men tennis players are superlative , among the best of all time , and not a Yank in sight .

Agree, think Mens tennis at its peak. Outside of Big 4, Tsonga, Berdych, and Del Potro and Roddick (before retirement) are brilliant players. Many of the Top 20 are formidable.......definitely stronger than Borg/Connors/McEnroe era or Sampras/Agassi era.

US will never dominate again......for reasons outlined (just like golf), its more of a world game and its a good thing. Not necessarily a decline. But we won't agree on this

its ludicrous to say their tennis hasnt declined. like golf, America used to own the team competitions. When was the last time a Davis Cup was won by the Yanks? perhaps one in the last ten years. Spain now rules it. Just like singles. Americans winning slams are a distant memory

the Williams brothers have masked the decline in the womens game. Outside of these 2 american women have been rubbish for ages.


the new kids Stephens and Keys are just potential. Womens tennis is littered with young hopes and I wouldn't bet on either of these 2 eventually winning a big one

In relative terms their men's game has........wouldn't be too sure about women's tennis though.

But we're only re-iterating the whole thing again.

(1) Its as much other countries catching-up, as much as a decline, golf/tennis in particular
(2) The mis-understanding that US sports fans actually care. They don't, completely consumed by their own sports, and thats all they really pay attention to.

Theres certainly no Connors, McEnroe, Sampras, Agassi around now. But these things are cyclical. Its not that long ago that there wasn't a single English golfer in the worlds top 100.

El gato , if you stood by the first tee on most courses in America on mens captains day you would probably endorse Vubiants initial comments re golf . The average golfer in America is rubbish , you only have to watch some of the pro ams from USA on TV to know that .

Their college system does produce good golfers , included among them are a good few from outside nations who often dominate their year --Gmac being a good example when he was in college there . But over the last 20 years , only a few of those excellent college products have progressed to anything approaching the standard of the old time produce like Byron , Sam , Ben , Arnie , Jack , Lee , Tom , Tom , Johnny , Ray , to mention but a few . And before anyone jumps down my throat re relative quality , Ben Hogans course record of 64 set in 1942 was only bettered last week ( by Dufner) in the USPGA major . 71 years ago . With crap equipment relative to nowadays .  James Bruen set the course record in Newcastle in 1939 , never was equalled , 65 I think . A hurler ( from Belfast via Muskerry) playing golf . Course altered for Walker Cup there recently , think 66 is current course record , although the course is the same essentially difficulty wise now as in 1939 . TV people now keep telling you "these guys are good " , keeps up the numbers viewing . Even Tiger in his best year has not beaten Byron Nelsons year scoring average of about 68 for all rounds played in a year--  Byron won every tournament he entered that year  , 11 in a row . 1940's equipment etc .

As I often say to guage quality , you have to examine what they are beating . US tour full of journeymen  .

Agree with the cyclical argument, this is a country that churns out brilliant athletes and it is only a matter of time before one of them has their attention turned to the international sphere.