Lucinda Creighton

I doubt if she is posturing,she is a government minister and like most politicians is enjoying yet on a point of principle she is going to lose that,she is also going to lose the chance of further advancement,when you consider the lack of women in the current government you would say definitely in the running for the top job when Enda calls it a day.

When you consider her constituency I think Santry has a good chance of seeing her sink without trace.

Shes not a Government Minister. She has a mickey mouse dreamed up roll to keep politicians like herself happy and make them feel important. Again,time will tell but I dont think think she'll commit hara kari on this issue.

All any of them do is posture, most are incapable of independent thought and have all of their speeches written for them. Whatever speech she has made that was so impressive, she probably had very little to do with its formulation. When put under pressure, most of them wouldn't know what they are doing, as evidenced by the 08' bail out.

Com on Borneo, out with it.  Cut to the chase.  Is she a honey or not?

Prime Liz O'Donnell is the benchmark.

i usta have a grudging admiration for her.her stupidity in this case is astounding.i wonder does her concience bother her when she thinks of the 5300 irish women who go for abortions every year to england with no support from anyone..?

My own view is that the story around Leinster House about the Husband (who is a renowned head banger on this issue) is leaning heavily on her is a lot truer than people give it credit for. Dublin South East is so liberal it is scarcely credible that anyone with a pro-life extreme stance has any chance of election. There is no way in the World Creighton was using a Pro-life stance as an election topic.

She was a pro-choice progressive Student and Barrister up until 2007.

shes playing to a particular audience..its not working as she had hoped though..ill be glad to see the end of her..

My opening post has been removed,Santry who disagrees with me but does so civilly will acknowledge it wasn't offensive.

She is sacrificing a job she loves on a point of principle,Lustrumms point about her husband is patronising and not true as she has expressed those views from the start,Dublin South East is a liberal constituency but there are working class areas in it Ringsend and Irishtown,Joe Doyle was a TD there for years and he was Alice Glen like in his views,he was also Sexton in his local church.

It should have been a free vote,there has to be a place for principle in politics.

i wonder does her concience bother her when she thinks of the 5300 irish women who go for abortions every year to england with no support from anyone..?

Thats a bit loaded and completely missing the point of why Creighton will vote no.
She like the majority of No voters in this country does not believe abortion is a cure for suicidal intentions which is correct. Majority of people support abortion but only in the case where the womans life is at risk directly which was not the case in the media spun Savita story where she died of septecimia.

From the start of what Wildman? I went to College with her and know her or of her for 15 years. Here you are again Wildman the man with all the knowledge of everything preaching to everyone of how their views are misguided and only you the "Great Judge and Man of reason" know the correct view.
You are the one that is patronising

It is not patronising to give a view

It is patronising to assume that Lucinda Creighton is not giving her own view but her husbands one.

I don't know the lady and accept that you do but was she pro choice in University,we know that certain views are not allowed in these liberal establishments and judging by your intolerance I can well understand her reluctance to express any views other than the ride on ones so beloved of priveliged sponsored University students.

She was elected in 2007 and made a speech on that issue in 2008 where she stated her moral reservations but then in your misogynistic mind you will think she was only trying to impress her future husband who she had yet to meet.

Kim Jung Il, a man after your heart, Borneo, had the ride on idea about those pesky Universities.

In 2011 he shut down North Korea's universities for 10 months and sent students to work in factories, agriculture and the construction sector as it struggles to rebuild its economy.

Serves those pesky priveliged liberals right. Who do they think they are anyway?

Theyd have u arrested on a college campus these days if u expressed a pro-life viewpoint

diamond the point i was making is that if a woman wants an abortion a ryanair flight to england and she has it.so isnt the whole abortion thing a bit of a pointless exercise?..we would have had to legislate on it years ago if we hadnt the escape valve of england...as regards lucinda i think she took a stand for opportunistic political reasons(which seem to have back fired on her)

Irish university students are priveliged as they don't have the loan schemes they have in other countries.
They are sponsored by the working population but that is only right as they are also essential for the well being of a nation.
Young people are generally idealistic and left wing and that's probably  as it should be but they will change when they start working,my objection is theses are places of learning yet the only views allowed are the in vogue liberal ones and liberal tyranny reigns.

She is on the record as having changed her mind.

She is about to set fire to a glittering career (There is no way back from this imo if she twice fcuks over the FG elite (the first time with the heave against Kenny)

I just don't get how someone can be so rational in 99% of issues yet off the wall with public opinion on this topic. There is no way in the world Abortion was an issue for anyone only the pro-life nuts at the last election so to claim it was is just a lie.

I would expect it from a fool like Peter Matthews but not someone like Lucinda Creighton.

To my eyes she is the ultimate hypocrite

How is she a hypocrite,disagree with her views alright but surely it would be hypocritical to vote against her principles and as you so correctly say throw away a glittering career.

Whatever side of the argument you are you should admire a principled stand.

To me the argument is lost and the suicide provision is a con it would be far more honest to look for abortion on demand and were there to be a referendum on it my money would be on it being carried.

agreed ^

Suprised Wildmans opening post was removed. It expressed an opinion and was not offensive . While my views would be at the other end of the scale to Ms.Creighton she cannot be accused of hypocracy. It is possible she has dug a hole for herself on this issue that she cannot get out of. My read on her is as I said earlier that she fancies herself and is full of her own self importance. It is possible though that she is surrounded by a gang of pro life types who have magnified the importance of this issue in her mind. This is simply not an issue that is raised at all in the world I inhabit.

She is a Hypocrite in the sense that she is now claiming that Abortion was an issue in the GE2011 when we all know it was not. That is why she is a Hypocrite and I have written to here expressing same view.

Wildman are you a Pro-Life Advocate?
Personally I am very much pro -choice

I am personally against abortion but I am torn somewhat on whether my views should be imposed on others.

I actually think if the pro choice group went all out for abortion rather than this dishonest suicide angle they would win,Irish society has changed a lot since those earlier referenda.

Pro-Life/Pro-Choice......Labels. Many people in this country are neither. They live in a world where personal responsibility and common sense rules yet are shouted down by minority vested interest groups on either side.

I believe women should be allowed the choice of an abortion if they are directly at risk of losing their life or suffering long term health effects. What I dont agree with is the suicide legislation when accurate diagnosis of potential suicide in this country is so poor. How exactly does a health professional diagnose suicidal intentions?

its an irish solution to an irish problem..agree with you re women having the choice

i.e pro-choice. We cab label it any way we want. I find they very idea that the Church and by extension middle aged men feel they have the right to force feed their views onto anyone reprehensible

The fact that a life is involved makes your ..... I find they very idea that the Church and by extension middle aged men feel they have the right to force feed their views onto anyone reprehensible , distasteful to say the least lustrumm ...Having a little more compassion for all involved would be my way of looking at the issue , be they middle aged men or women ..Most of these women having an abortion , would be young and scared , finding themselves in this situation ...I'd be of the diamond joe opinion re abortion ...Having lived in England during the 70s and seeing the abortion on demand , often without the Father been consulted ..The deciding factor been in some cases , not that i cant afford to support the child , but i really cant be bothered having it ...I remember a English woman who was going with a mate of mine , calling him aside on night and telling him she'd had an abortion for ...Cosmetic reasons...I kid you not....

Cosmetic reasons, wonky?  Was she suggesting that this, ahem, 'friend' was too ugly to breed with?

Again you miss the point Ozy....Obviously you don't understand women either ....The BULGE would make HER look ugly ........Hence the COSMETIC reason........

all the creighton fans out if force today on the paper praising her even her husband..!!!

The Pro-Life Advocates do tend to get their voices heard. Creighton will get a fright the next time she goes to the Polls if she thinks a hard line pro-life stance is a vote winner. That goes for the rest of the Suburban Candidates too

were not gonna hear much more of her id say..she will fade out of the limelight rapidly

Lustrumm , DR Sam Coulter Smith Master of the Rotunda , says he believes  that abortion is NOT a suitable treatment for mothers who are suicidal ...H'es also a middle aged man , I guess he'd be wrong in your eyes as well....

Anyone that tries to dictate to anyone else on matters like this is wrong in my view. But I am pro-choice I must admit. If I was a woman as far as I am concerned my Body is mine to do whatever I want with it.
BTW I also believe that Mothers who have special needs child after special needs child are wrong as well. I don't believe it id fair on the child or Society for a Mother to have 5 special needs Children

I don't have a strong opinion on it tbh ....Cosmetic abortion makes me sick though....

Vote deferred to midnight ?,  old buddy coming to the rescue !! I could rephrase that now but should not need to............

Never ever be in any way astounded by politicians, they are all the same just last night Noonan said people should surrender their houses, to whom ? De Banks ?, but don't we own these Banks ?, worst Government ever, and the sooner we get rid of the lot of them the better, even if its only in dribs+drabs.................

They obviously are not all the same and I would bet heavy odds on that Lucinda Creighton will vote no tonight

When you look at the greed of Gilmore,the incredible naked greed of the Costelloes who have brought milking the state to new levels and then you see the principled stand taken by Roisin Shortall and Tommy Broughan you know they are not all the same.

I dontI agree with the views of either of these politicians but I admire their consistency and integrity.

shes an opportunistic woman full of self importance who made a wrong move going own she road she did.its too late for her now to turn.i hope we have seen the last of her and hopefully tonight will finish her political career.i think its fairly obvious i dont like her!!

You don't like her opinions which is fair enough but calling her opportunistic is wrong as its obvious to most she is the opposite.

i say she is opportunistic.when she was at college she was prochoice.in a few short years shes gone total opposite and is prolife(i hate that term because being prolife doesnt mean what it says).she spotted a gap in the market and down she went it.to me thats opportunistic.

Still think Ms Creighton will vote with the government tonight. Her ambition will get the better of her "conscience". She is on a no win anyway at this stage as a U turn will seriously damage any credibility she has.

Will somebody please put Micheal , Willie and Eamonn back with an overall majority and put Jay Trump out of his misery ?

How was she getting on as a Barrister? Did she practice? Maybe she is looking to get her name in lights to reignite her career in the legal profession?

Looking good for a midnight candlelight vigil as the RC reactionaries gather for a last hurrah ...hymns a-singin', beads a-bobbin'.
It will be a mercy to have this tortured and repetitive saga finally off the agenda....with its tonnage of  medical minutiae and legalistic logomachy that would fill ten lifetimes.

What's rare is wonderful,we are now so used to politicians being self serving that when one comes along with a conscious and some principles ye are looking for angles.
Kavvie thinks she is giving up a glittering cabinet future for some electoral gain when anyone could see this will be a huge vote loser.
Neill d thinks she is looking for some profile for legal reasons but why change career when she was soaring in her political one.

Just accept that here you have a lady of principle,the issue should be irrelevant and I accept its complexity,but she could have easily gone down the John OMahony route announced she has been reassured by the Attorney General and carried on with her highly paid job,she choose to stand by her views at both a political and financial cost.

I agree. I have little time for her on other issues but she has shown some backbone on this one.


Fine Gael TD Michelle Mulherin says she is very disappointed that her concerns have not been met by the Government.  She said she will support abortion legislation so she will not be "booted out" of her party

Most politicians dont even bother hiding their self interest anymore....

Minister Kathleen Lynch: "500 people commit suicide every year, but none of them can be a pregnant woman, because if she is, she is telling lies and faking it."

Nice to see Kathleen showing her high IQ level She does a quality serving of hypocrisy and utter vileness whilst shes at it as well..........

http://www.independent.ie/
irish-news/
defiant-td-refuses-to-quit-over-letter-for-family-of-rapist-26441473.html

This might be rare, but its far from wonderful. So a commitment was made on this issue, but hey what about all the other issues, that her Government made : Mayo hospital ?, 3rd Level grants ?, Anglo not another cent ?, Frankfurts way or labours way ?, but isn't that what you do before elections,

Watched Prime Time and Gemma Hussey could hardly conceal her contempt for Lucinda Creighton,Hussey has been demanding quotas for women and lamenting the lack of young women in politics but when one comes along who doesn't have the liberal views she likes its like she's not a real woman so doesn't count.

This is just a further affirmation that when feminists call for breaks for women in politics and business what they really mean is women of a certain view,rank hypocrisy from another group of Liberal bigots.

Indeed, the old Guard of FG hate her to a man/woman. I would say there is not one person in the Party over 50 that doesn't detest her.

mary coughlan making mince meat of that young lad on vin browne at mo!!

A lot of heat but a lot more hate in that debate.

Why must you hate someone with a different point of view,Mary Coughlan ranting and railing against Lucinda Creighton and expressing hate proves my point about liberal bigotry.

Why would any Fine Gael TD over 50 or under even hate someone for having principles,Lucinda Creighton has made them feel uncomfortable because she sacrificed power and wealth for a principle something anathema to most politicians.

BIGOTRY a word much used by the liberal left when the focus is on others ..Seems they go deaf when they spout it themselves ...The Yanks call this a win win situation ....I think people in politics and elsewere who have shut their eyes and ears on this one  , will eventually come around to asking themselves , why did i let my political views distort my thinking ....You never know , maybe lucindas stand ,will finally open others to the possibility that , you don't always have to be led by the hand ...I'm sure even now there are some with massive regrets having voted this in....Others who might have hated her for her stand on this , might reluctantly wish they had her guts .....

I haven't followed this debate whatsoever, am not familiar with the nuances or characters.

Where are we on Abortion....is it legal yet or are we still shackled by a prehistoric theocracy?  If not, what on earth are we waiting for?

They are still awaiting the Mullahs REPORT....

It's jolly uncivilised.  Thankfully The Mainland is there to meet the demand.  Embarrassing really.

Oh and Happy 12th today, let's hope it passes off quietly. No sign of Richters lately, presumably he is manning the barricades today.

The mainland is there to meet the demand of wealthy people to circumvent the law just like Thailand is there for other wealthy people to circumvent other laws.

Ozymandius not being able to follow a debate is not new as he is the epitome of liberal bigotry so no debate allowed just a series of sound bites followed by a bit of name calling.

Doesn't cost a whole lot to get to The Mainland Borneo.  I wouldn't have a clue as to the cost of an abortion.

I don't follow this debate, Borneo, no interest in it.  Just embarrassed that we are wasting time fiddling around with technicalities when we should just make Abortion available.  Period.

AT the end of all this , Ireland can hold its head up and say to the world ....We have a politician who believes in something and is willing to lose all for her beliefs ...How many can say that about their representatives no matter were you live in this world ..Take a bow LUCINDA ....

Shame on you Ozy if you think that abortion should be made available on tap. don,t expect much else of ya.

the sad thing about it is thats its a non issue.abortion freely available  an hour away.11  irish women every day avail of this service.

i dint think anyone here wants it available on tap pa.but in circumstances of rape incest etc i think a woman has a right to chose?

Fair enough Kavvie,it was the use of the word period that suggests an open policy towards it.

Just because something is available nearby doesn't mean we have to have it and as I said earlier Euthanasia is available elsewhere drugs legal elsewhere and nefarious activities available in Thailand but we don't have to legalise it.

For Kavvie to say no one wants it on tap is nonsense that's the purpose of the suicide part of the bill and its this deceit I find objectionable.

SURELY the question should be , WHY KAVVIE ...With so much sex lessons in schools , availability of the pill , condoms , etc ..How are these people allowing themselves become pregnant ...Dont put it all down to drink either ...SURELY IF YOU'RE A YOUNG WOMAN GOING OUT ON THE TOWN LOOKING FOR A GOOD TIME YOU MUST TAKE PRECAUTIONS ....IF THEY GET PREGNANT IMO ITS THEIR OWN FAULT ....OF COURSE THERE ARE OTHER CIRCUMSTANCES ..I.E. RAPE ....BY AND LARGE THE VAST MAJORITY OF THESE PREGNANCIES  ARE SELF INFLICTED.....

I want it freely available on tap here.

The drink is a major issue, Wonky.  Most Irish people are uncomfortable having or initiating casual sex without being hammered.

That's not an unreasonable position and certainly a more honest one than those bringing in a suicide angle to use as a nod and a wink to get the desired abortion for whatever reason.

I find myself on dates with sultry Latina types here on The Riviera.  Really no need for huge amounts of alcohol as part of the seduction process.  Very liberating.  And think of the calories saved; its no wonder they look so good on the beach.

OK OK we accept you are heterosexual but why you would fear being thought homosexual is a mystery considering your ride on views.

I have no fear being thought homosexual.  None at all, Borneo, you little minx.

The point was not to highlight my undoubted virility, but rather the connection between casual sex and alcohol in Ireland.

I do of course appreciate that this is an awkward subject for you to contribute on, having had zero exposure to casual or recreational sex. 

Get married?  What a preposterous and dated ambition!

There was a round of applause after the vote was passed and pro-choice supporters outside Leinster House cheered at the result. The legislation will now be discussed by the Seanad on Monday.

Earlier, Minister for Health James Reilly said the criminal sanction for procuring an abortion will be reduced from penal servitude for life to a maximum of 14 years under the Protection of Life During Pregnancy Bill.

In the final vote on an amendment, Dr Reilly rejected opposition appeals to decriminalise the procurement of an abortion and said it was essential to have a penalty to uphold the Constitution.

Remind me how many people are in penal servitude at present given, perhaps a quarter of a million abortions have occured (possibly more) since this was on the stature books since..................1861?

What a cowardly society we are.

as for that joker on his knees outside the Dail last night calling down fire and brimstone on the sinners within......

And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

We are a laughing stock of the world; the above scene conjures up images of The Dark Ages.

workrider i take your point but thats a different issue.prevention is bettter than cure etc but the facts are that a lot of young people cant even remember having the sex they are that hammered.i do agree that condoms,morning after pill,the pill,coil etc would prevent a lot.but facts are they dont seem to care.then wen the harm is done its too late.

So Kavvie we're are talking about a woman who doesn't give a damn in the first place , Yet when the inevitable happens she come crying that the state won't allow her have an abortion ..It seems to me these people need to GROW UP and take responsibility for THEIR actions ....

by forcing them to bring an unwanted child into the world, outside of a family unit and without the means or common sense to take care of it without State help?

Yes, that's a RESPONSIBLE policy approach from the State!

OZY , there are OTHER countries in the world of like mind , Including your friends in the middle east....So less of the , We are the laughing stock of the world , Your reply to my question about cosmetic abortion shows you in your true light , Not a woman's atall , In fact very much the opposite .....I'd say without your CREDIT CARD women would have NO interest in you whatsoever ....

The consequences of OUR ACTIONS are the pay back ....Nobody is Forced to have sex on a night out ...I know there are cases were things go wrong and people are raped , also that incest occurs ...What we are talking about here is simply , COSMETIC ABORTION PURE AND SIMPLE ....I am of the opinion that if there is a reasonable chance that the woman might die due to complications then it should be left up to the doctors to decide within reason , In the case of incest they should also have the right to abortion ....But this COSMETIC ABORTION IS EVIL ....

I must say I agree with Ozy on this one, for the first time ever.

" Get married? What a preposterous and dated ambition "

Not sure about that your bosom buddies despite your fears are clamouring to get married.

Have to say i'm suprised Ms Creighton backed herself into a point of no return on what is really a non issue. Also suprised how exercised politicians generally were on the issue. Pity they didnt put such energy into issues that matter on the ground like the establishment s crewing the people on the economic meltdown and bringing the people responsible to justice both in the courts and in their pockets. Hard to see Ms Creighton's "conscience" being to exercised on issues that really matter. We live in a strange country.

well said santryif they were half s intresed in the important issues we would be in a better place.

It wasn't a non issue for her.

The mystery is why Fine Gael enforced the whip as the bill was going to pass anyway.

I really like the irony of all this lap gate controversy with the usual feminazis claiming the Dail not conducive to women,the late night debate not suiting women but not a word about them losing the brightest woman in the Dail but then she held the wrong views.

the ireland of old farts and the crosier is yesterday's news.

She didn't always hold the wrong views, as her boss would know........ wasn't there sum ting, sum ting .........in zee past........ a spark.....
plug

That's intriguing please explain.

It does seem that Creighton is very moral,she also complained about Denis OBriens close association with the party.

The X Case is being mentioned numerous times by Pro Choice groups. Its a very interesting and tragic case and one worthy of debate. The saddest part is there is no mention of the leniant punishments metted out to the offender in this case Sean O'Brien who was originally sentenced to 14 years in prison, reduced to 4 on appeal and served 3....Afterwards he then went on to attack another under age girl and got another 3 year sentence. (Its at this point you'd wish the death penalty was available but alas liberals have done away with that).


There was some interesting statistics released by the NHS in 2011 in relation to the reasons for abortions in Britain. Basically Britain have it divided in an extremely clear way as to why a person should get an abortion
0.1% of abortions were for permanent or life risk to the mother. Quite extraordinary.

The worrying aspect of the suicide part of the bill is how exactly does a doctor disprove that a woman is suicidal?
There seems little interest in why a woman is suicidal after becoming pregnant. The 2 only justifiable reasons are rape/incest and its very hard to believe 185,973 women last year fell under those circumstances. In fact most statistics I have seen state roughly 1% of abortions are related to Rape/Incest. There can be little doubt the suicide clause potentially opens up the floodgates for abortion.

Reasons:

1. Threat of Death
2. Threat of permenant Injury
3. Threat of short term injury/mental episode
4. Threat to mental/physical wellbeing of another child of the same mother
5. Child has a birth Defect.

Results:

1 & 2 together : 0.1% (195)
3.: (98%; 185,973)
4.: (1% 1,455)
5.: (1%; 2,307).

As i already explained to OZY , most abortions are for COSMETIC REASONS pure and simple...

Nice to see the full display of hypocrisy on show in the Seanad. Pro Abortionists lecture how the unborn child is not "Human" or a real life, yet they seem unwilling to listen to the specific details of how abortions are carried out when told by Jim Walsh. Why would you be so squeemish when the procedure is happening to a "Thing".

Labour even going as far to say they didnt want such descriptive language used in front of children..........
yes labours policy is to kill the unborn but hide it away from everyone........the Nazis had a similar policy

I'm always amazed by the hypocrisy of the labour party ....To think as a young man i often voted for them ....