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What is the point of having an association that were it seems powerless (by the sound of Caldwell) to prevent a whopping 55% cut, fair enough cuts were probably inevitable but 55% is simply astounding?.
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They were asked to make cuts and typically they start right at the bottom. Pathetic, these lads and lassies keep the show on the road. Lets hope those higher up the food chain will also be accepting the inevitable cuts.
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And the thing is bleeker some of them were probably only too glad to do the late Dundalk shift for that little bit extra dough to boost their already pitiful income, now by the time the taxman takes his cut of the whopping €50 I wouldn't say there'll be too many volunteers.
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Irish stable staff association chairman Bernard Caldwell said at Dundalk last night, "It seems pretty mean.
Im sure Stable lads and lasses will be delighted to see such a hard hitting and steely response ![]() |
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Didn't they stab ISSA founder Dan Kirwan in the back to replace him with Caldwell?
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pathetic and shocking into the bargain , lets see the fat cats take a cut ...this is shameful , it must be highlighted , the most vulnerable suffering the most again ...these poor sods have it hard enough as it is ....disgraceful....
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Nobody likes to see these cuts but unfortunately they are really inevitable. Many trainers are suffering with fewer horses and owners. Owners are pressing trainers for lower training fees and something has to give. The whole industry is feeling the pain.
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really , how about the upper echelon , are they taking anything like he savage cuts stable hands are expected to take..methinks not ...those most deserving , are been sacrificed at the alter...
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Nobody is disagreeing with you Workrider that this is tough for the people at the bottom. But this idea that there is an "upper echelon" creaming it is inaccurate. Lots of Trainers are living from hand to mouth at the moment with falling income through lower fees, prize money with increasing costs like diesel and feed adding to the burden. Not all stables are Ballydoyles. In fact the opposite is true. The rural economy is on its knees and shouting that our betters should pay more is nonsensical. Who and where are these people who can stump up to stave off the inevitable?
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Kitty nobody denies that some trainers on the lower rung of the ladder are struggling to keep afloat, even jump racing has become like the flat where a select few trainers dominate, wealthy owners invariably means superior class of animal, O'Leary and McManus do spread their stock around a little but their more expensive purchases usually end up within the select few, so in effect most of the prizemoney is funnelled back towards the already super rich and their select few trainers.
But even so Kitty many trainers on the middle rung of the ladder still make a healthy living from the game, their standard of living would be much more comfortable than your average blue collar worker, I don't think many horse trainers are staring down the barrel of the soup kitchen?, but many of their staff are borderline breadline?. Stable staff have I presume already taken hefty cuts from our goverment?, and not everyone of them are head lads, travelling head lads or senior work riders who obviously get paid substantially more than your average mucker out?, the vast majority of stable staff are just general dogs bodies (many of them immigrants on the basic minimum wage?) that work unholy hours for poor pay. Kitty, are you trying to justify this savage cut of the Dundalk allowance?, you say cuts are inevitable but would you agree that 55% cuts are virtually unheard of?, not a 15% cut, nor 20% cut nor even a draconian 40% cut but a savage 55%?. Hypothetical, it's Friday in a small Curragh stable, a certain member of staff who is booked in for the Dundalk shift stirs himself at 5.30 to be in work for 6.30am, he does his usual routine, muck out, ride out a few, feed & water, clean tack, hose and sweep down the yard, maybe a bit of grooming etc, if he's lucky he might be working for a trainer who actually gives his staff some respect, many trainers have reputations as bullies, but often excused in racing circles as hard taskmaster, which translates in laymans terms as a not very nice person. The afternoon comes the stable has 2 runners at Dundalk one in an early race the other in the 9.25 race, they load up and head for the races, the journey will probably take around 2 hours, it takes me one and a half in a car and its all motorway, I'm sure it takes a little longer in a horsebox?. Arrive at the races, the staff member does the norm unloads the horses saddles them up, walks the horse around the pre & parade rings etc. Fast forward, the last race is over, horse finishes unplaced, by the time the horse is eventually unsaddled washed down and loaded up its just past ten, arrive back at the stable around midnight, box the horses up and head for home, arrives home at around 12.30am the following morning, and in many cases that staff member would be expected back in work at 6.30am that same morning?, and you think that €50(around €30 by the time the taxman gets a hold of it?) is justified Kitty?, it's nothing short of slave labour. The ISSA has so much to answer for!. |
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well said silvergreaser , kitty we all know some trainers are struggling atm...but dont tell me owners have their training fees slashed by 50% or for that matter feeding has increased by that amount ....no a cut of 50% is simply savage and unwarranted ......
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would some of them not have lost 50% of their horses, wr, which would amount to the same thing wouldn't it?
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Of course it wouldn't because the trainers who have lost half their horses have laid off staff.
You knew in your heart and soul that Ozymandius would be a William Martin Murphy type. Silvergreaser has made a fine post on this although I wish he would extend his concern to those unfortunate jockeys,historically stable staff have been treated disgracefully even to this day you have big stables allowing generally young girls with a gra for horses work for nothing,I have heard some complain that they could not survive without this gratis labour. Diamond Joe has sussed out the pathetic Bernard Caldwell and his incredible response but you have to realise that he is very much part of the establishment as he is paid by the HRI an absolute conflict of interest. |
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Your profit still declines dramatically, even if you lay off staff.
I recently saw Mouse Morris puffing on a Hamlet cigar when once he wouldn't have been seen dead without a Cohiba. Just saying. |
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Wildman I'd say most of todays current jockeys always had an ambition to become a jockey, many brought up in already well established racing families, fair enough it's a dangerous job particulary for the jumps boys, but as I said before nobody puts a gun to their head?.
Take your average journeyman jockey say he has an average of 7 rides a week, I'm not sure what the going rate it is for a jump jockeys riding fee, something in the region of €140?, thats adds up to €980 a week, which amounts to over €50,000 annually in riding fees alone, and I'm not taking into account prizemoney accrued and owner gifts, or their other supplementaries like riding work for certain trainer/trainers, in a nutshell even the journey men can make a decent living out of the game and when they hang up their boots most of them will walk straight into a job within racing, yes alcohol has caused problems for some in the past, but very few will end up on welfare. The more established jockeys of course would make a much more substantial living out of the game, I'd say its frightening how much the likes of Ruby, Davy and Barry earn from the game?. |
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The average journeyman jockey would not average seven rides a week,also out of their riding fee they have to pay an agent and a valet,they also have travelling expenses.
The fact is most of them are absolutely skint and saying that few ex jockeys end up on welfare is untrue as its the fate of the vast majority of them. In all sports the men at the top make good money but when you think of the dangers involved the three men you mentioned would only be in halfpenny place compared to Soccer players,Golfers and Formula One drivers. |
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I'm just giving an average wildman, a journeyman might have 3 rides one week and 10 the next week, I'd class any jockey having just an average of 7 rides a week a journeyman would you not?.
I think most jockeys riding today have their heads screwed on and are not as vulnerable to exterior influences, thats not to say some won't mess things up its only human nature, but racings closed shop can be a very forgiving place if the individual is willing?. You can't compare Ruby to the likes of top golfers and footballers, but its safe to say he earns substantially more than other top stars from various other sports?. http://www.irishracing.com/v5stats It's a pity wildman you're not able to copy and paste these links but if you could it'll give you a very good idea of the earning potential of the so called professional journeymen in the sport of jump racing. |
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How does it work for evening racing during the Summer? Are they also paid the same amount or was Dundalk a concession?
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Below taken from ISSA website before the latest cuts, seems like it hasn't been updated since Feb 2011, so I presume the goverment has since rectified things?,
Wage Agreement It was agreed to leave the minimum wage at €9.75c per hour while the travel expenses will also remain the same as the '09/'11 period. Overtime rates are time and one third(€13.00) for all hours worked over 39 hours, time and two thirds(€16.24) for time worked on a Sunday and double time (€19.50) for time worked on a bank holiday. Racing Expenses remain the same for this year, 2011: Day Meetings €40 Evening Meetings €50 Saturday Evening, Sunday and Bank Holiday €75 All Weather Racing >80km €110 All Weather Racing |
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Section 1 – Minimum Rates of Pay
Rates of Pay for stablestaff effective from the 1st October 2008 (12 month duration). This represents a 10% increase on the existing JLC (Joint Labour Committee) rates for Agricultural Workers, therefore recognising the uniqueness of the work carried out. Thereafter, rates will be amended in accordance with increases awarded under the National Wage Agreements and/or the JLC. Weekly Hourly Adult Worker € 380.52 € 9.75 Under age 18 € 266.40 € 6.83 he following minimum expenses will apply to attendance at race meetings: Day Meetings : € 40 Evening Meetings : € 50 Saturday Evening & Sunday Meetings, Public Holidays : € 75 Overnight (where the need for this arises) : € 100 All Weather Racing (Over 80km radius) : € 110 All Weather Racing (Under 80km radius) : € 75 Normal Working Week The normal number of hours to be worked by workers in relation to whom this agreement operates shall be 39 hours per week. In relation to workers under the age of 18, the provisions of the Protection of Young Persons (Employment) Act, 1996 shall apply. Trainers are expected to fully familiarise themselves with this legislation and to comply with its provision. The 39 hour week may be implemented in any one of the following ways, depending on the needs of the individual yard: (a) A 39 hour week year round. (b) 38 hours for 6 consecutive months. 40 hours for 6 consecutive months. (the months to be agreed at local level). (c) 36 hours for 3 consecutive months. 40 hours for 9 consecutive months. (the months to be agreed at local level). Weekly pay for normal hours should not differ as a result of the above arrangements, but should be paid as though the 39 hour week was worked year round. Overtime rates shall be payable in respect of all time worked in any week in excess of the declared normal hours of work for that week. Where hours of work (including overtime) exceed 48 hours per week, the total number of hours in any 7 day period must not exceed 48, averaged over a period of six months. The months of the averaging period must be consecutive, but the employer may choose which six months they will be. Short Day Only a half day shall be worked on Saturdays unless the contract of employment provides otherwise, or 24 hours notice of a requirement to work after 1.00pm on Saturday is given to the employee by the employer. Rest Periods The rest periods specified for workers in Sections 11, 12, and 13 of the Organisation of Working Time Act shall not apply. Employers shall ensure that their employees have equivalent compensatory rest periods and breaks available to them in accordance with the guidelines set out in the Code of Practice on Compensatory Rest Periods (S.I. 44 of 1998). General Given the nature of the industry, employees shall work during weekends subject to their right to one weekend in two free from duties on a rota basis. Overtime Rates Overtime will apply after normal hours have been worked: - For all time worked in excess of normal hours of work on any day other than Sunday, and including after 1.00pm on the short day, the minimum time rate is time and one-third ( 1.33). - For all time worked on Sundays, the minimum time-rate is time and two-thirds (1.66). - In accordance with the provisions of the Organisation of Working Time Act, 1997, for normal hours worked on Public Holidays, time by two applies (2). For hours over normal hours, the rate shall be time and one third by two (1.33 x 2). It is accepted that no employee should be expected to work extended periods without time off. In addition he/she will receive a €25 call out fee in addition to the Sunday expense rate. Section 5 – Contract of Employment In accordance with the provisions Terms of Employment (Information) Acts 1994 – 2001, all employees will be provided with a contract of employment by their employers, within two months of the commencement of employment. The contract will include details of the terms and conditions applicable to that employee employment. Section 6 – Holidays Definition "Leave year" means a year beginning on 1st April in any year. Annual Leave The leave year is 1st April, to 31st March. Depending on time worked, employees in relation to whom this agreement applies shall be entitled to holidays calculated by one of the following methods: (a) 4 working weeks (20 day holidays) in the leave year in which the employee works at least 1,365 hours (unless it is a leave year in which the worker changed employment); (b) 1/3 of a working week per calendar month that the employee works at least 117 hours; (c) 8% of the hours worked in a leave year, but subject to a maximum of 4 working weeks. In order that no difficulty arises when planning holidays, holiday requests must be submitted to the employer for approval in advance. Public Holidays Employees in relation to whom this agreement applies are entitled (in accordance with the provisions of the Organisation of Working Time Act, 1997) to whichever of the following their employer determines, in respect of public holidays: (a) A paid day off on that day (b) A paid day off within a month of that day (c) An additional day of annual leave (d) An additional day's pay Part-time and short-time employees must have worked for at least 40 hours in the 5 weeks before the public holiday to qualify for public holiday benefit. General (a) For the purposes of computing holiday remuneration, no deductions shall be made for benefits provided by the employer but not enjoyed by the employee whilst on annual leave. (b) A day which would be regarded as a day of annual leave shall, if the employee concerned is ill on that day and furnishes to the employer a medical certificate in respect of the illness, not be regarded as a day of annual leave. (c) The annual leave of an employee who has 8 or more months of service shall include an unbroken period of 2 weeks. (d) When ascertaining whether a period is equivalent to two working weeks, the fact that a day is a public holiday or a day of illness shall be disregarded. (e) An employee shall be regarded as having worked on a day of annual leave the hours he would have worked on that day had it not been a day of annual leave. Leave and Holiday Entitlements of Short-term and Part-time Workers Entitlement to leave and public holidays for short-term and part-time employees shall be calculated in the same manner as in paragraphs 2 and 3 herein above. Cesser Pay Where an employee ceases to be employed and the whole or any portion of annual leave remains to be granted to him, the worker shall be paid an amount equal to the pay that he would have received if he had been granted that leave. Section 7 – Stable Employee Bonus Scheme In accordance with Rule 298, of the Rules of Racing and INHS Committee Rules, monies are paid to the Trainers for distribution to registered employees on four occasions each year. Payments will be made in the months of April, July, October and January covering the quarters ending in the preceding months. The amount of the payment to be made to each employee should be based on rules and guidelines to be agreed between each Trainers employees. A copy of the rules must be lodged with the Turf Club & INHS Committee, and displayed in each yard. Section 8 – Additional Benefits Sick Pay Scheme 1. All employees to whom this agreement applies, having a minimum of one year’s service with their current employer shall be covered by a Sick Pay Scheme which entitles them to payment during absences due to illness. Such a scheme shall be provided by the employer, and shall be non-contributory. 2. No payment shall be made in respect of the first 3 days of any absence on sick leave. For entitlement to payment, a certificate signed by a medical practitioner must be produced by the third day of any absence on sick leave, specifying the nature of the illness. Certificates must be produced weekly thereafter for continuance of entitlement to sick pay. 3. It will be the employee’s duty to ensure that the employer is informed of his/her absence from work due to illness before normal starting time on the first day of absence. 4. Entitlement to benefit under the Scheme will apply only during a 12 month period in any Scheme year, and will not carry over from one year to another. 5. Entitlement to benefit under the Scheme will apply to full-time staff, and pro-rata to part-time staff, as follows:- All Staff After one year’s service: 3 weeks’ pay at appropriate minimum pay rates as set out in this agreement and as amended thereafter, less Social Welfare entitlement. 6. Disciplinary procedures may be applied to any worker found to have abused the Scheme. 7. The employer will be entitled to refer an employee for assessment by a doctor nominated by the employer. The cost of any such referral will be paid by the employer. 8. The employee will be responsible for claiming his/her Social Welfare entitlements while on sick leave, and for paying over such payments to the employer. Monies not paid over within 6 weeks of receipt by the employee may be treated by the employer as payment of wages in advance. Bereavement Leave In the event of absences arising from the death of a spouse, son, daughter, brother, sister or parent, up to three workings days will be paid. Clothing Assistance by trainers will be encouraged in the purchase of working clothes such a Jodhpurs, Jodhpur boots, on the basis of an advance and repayments arranged in weekly instalments. Health & Safety In accordance with Health and Safety legislation, helmets and back protectors will be provided by the employer. Employees, in turn, have a responsibility to properly use equipment provided and to take adequate care of this equipment at all times. Section 9 – Disciplinary & Grievance Procedures A “Code of Practice” on dispute resolution tailored for this industry has been drawn up. The purpose of this “Code of Practice” is to provide a fair approach to issues that might arise in individual yards Disciplinary Procedure Where an employee’s conduct, attendance or performance warrants disciplinary action, the following procedure will apply except in cases of gross misconduct. 1. Counselling The employee will initially be given a counselling by his/her employer, which will be recorded on the employee’s file. 2. Formal Verbal Warning In the event of a further breach of conduct, poor attendance or lapse of performance, the employee will be given a formal verbal warning by his/her employer. This warning will be recorded on the employee’s file. 3. First Written Warning In the event of a further breach, the employee will be issued with a formal written warning, a copy of which will be retained on the employee’s file. 4. Final Written Warning & Suspension In the event of yet a further breach, the employee will be given a final formal written warning, and may be given a period of unpaid suspension. The letter will clearly state that a further breach will lead to dismissal. 5. Dismissal If, following stage 4, there are further breaches, the employee will be dismissed. Note: With the exception of counselling, an employee is entitled to have a witness present at any meeting with the employer in the form of a colleague or a representative of the Irish Stablestaff Association. Having received a warning at any stage up to stage three of the procedure, where an employee’s record subsequently remains clear for at least six months, that employee will revert to the previous stage of the procedure. In the event of having reached stage four, an employee’s record will revert to a previous stage after maintaining a clear record for at least one year. Before any decision is taken to impose disciplinary action, an employer must investigate the matter first and consider any responses given by the employee. Gross Misconduct In cases of Gross Misconduct such as fighting, theft, wilful damage to property, reporting for work under the influence of alcohol/unprescribed drugs, breaches of trust, abuse and neglect of horses, etc., an employee may be summarily dismissed without recourse to the normal disciplinary procedures. Where an incident constituting gross misconduct arises, an employee may be suspended with pay in order to facilitate an investigation. Following investigation, and having established that misconduct has occurred, the employer may decide to impose an alternative form of discipline such as unpaid suspension. Grievance Procedure It is in everyone’s interest to establish a clear procedure for the resolution of all issues arising between them. Grievances will occur in the normal course of interaction in the workplace. A failure to follow a procedure to deal adequately with grievances as they arise will inevitably lead to disputes affecting the workplace. It is vital that all grievances are dealt with, without undue delay. Stage 1 The grievance will be discussed between the employee and his/her employer. Stage 2 Failing a resolution of the issue, the matter will be referred by the employee to a representative of the Irish Stablestaff Association. The representative will contact the employer with a view to endeavouring to achieve a resolution. Stage 3 The matter will be referred to the “Internal Referral Committee” established under this agreement, which will investigate the issue and issue a decision within seven working days. Stage 4 Should the matter remain unresolved, it will be referred to the Labour Relations Commission for conciliation or for a hearing by a Rights Commissioner, whichever is appropriate. If still unresolved, it will be referred to the Labour Court for a formal investigation. During the period in which the above procedure is being followed no form of action will be taken by either party in the form of strike, lockout, walkout, sit-in, go-slow, or any form of industrial action designed to bring pressure to bear on either the employee or the employer. Section 10 - Bullying & Harassment Every employee has the right to carry out his/her work free from any form of bullying/harassment. What is Bullying / Harassment Bullying and harassment is defined as: “Unwanted or repeated aggression or behaviour/actions of a physical, psychological or verbal nature which unfairly discriminates, humiliates, embarrasses or intimidates an employee or results in an employee feeling threatened, offended or compromised in anyway.” Sexual Harassment is defined as: “Unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favours, other verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature, which results in the individual feeling threatened or compromised in any way.” Sexual harassment should not be confused with simple friendly behaviour or with more intimate exchanges, if these are mutually desired and accepted. The difference between friendly behaviour and sexual harassment is that sexual harassment is neither solicited nor accepted by the recipient. It is simply unwelcome and/or imposed. The reporting procedures, investigation and disciplinary measures are treated in the same fashion for both scenarios. Be aware that bullying / harassment can take many forms and is not always obvious, but can be subtle or insidious in nature which is no less upsetting to the victim. It is also important to note that bullying / harassment is generally defined not necessarily by its intention but by the impact of the behaviour on the recipient. So be aware that what you consider inoffensive may be unacceptable to another individual. Informal Procedure Many incidents of bullying / harassment can be dealt with effectively in an informal way. Often the harasser may be unaware of the effect their behaviour is having on others. Therefore speaking with the person in question, making it clear that their behaviour is unwelcome, may be enough to rectify the matter. If this action does not result in the bullying or harassment stopping or a more serious incident arises, then you should use the Formal Procedure. Formal Procedure In the first instance, you should contact your employer at the earliest opportunity and outline, in writing, the nature of your complaint advising that you wish to make a formal complaint. If your complaint relates to your employer, you may approach the “Internal Referral Committee” established under this agreement. No action will be taken without prior consultation or discussion. Any complaint of bullying / harassment will be treated with sensitivity. During investigation discretion will be a priority, but confidentiality cannot be guaranteed. In the interests of natural justice, the alleged perpetrator also has rights and will be given every opportunity to a fair and impartial hearing and a right to challenge any allegation.Witnesses, where appropriate may also have to be interviewed. All allegations / complaints received will be thoroughly examined and where a complaint is upheld, the matter will be dealt with in a manner so as to ensure no further difficulties arise. Where appropriate, external assistance will be provided to both the accused and the victim. It is important to note that malicious/false allegations will be treated as a disciplinary offence. Section 11 - Referral of Disputes A Referral Committee has been established to examine any complaints referred on breaches of this agreement. The Referral Committee will also meet on at least an annual basis to review the working of this agreement in its entirety and issue a short written report to the Board of Horse Racing Ireland. The Referral Committee will comprise of one representative from each of the following groups under the Chair of Horse Racing Ireland: Irish Stablestaff Association Irish Racehorse Trainers Association Turf Club Horse Racing Ireland Additional representatives from other bodies, if deemed appropriate, may also be included in the committee. Working under standing orders, the Referral Committee will examine any written complaint referred on breaches of the Agreement on Minimum Terms & Conditions of Employment for Stablestaff, dated November 2005. The Referral Committees findings will be published and considered binding. Section 12 – Irish Stablestaff Association Recognition is given to the role played by the Irish Stablestaff Association in providing appropriate representation on behalf of employees covered by this agreement. From time to time information will be issued to yards for the benefit of employees. Trainers undertake to nominate a person working in the yard who will be the recipient of such information. Agreement on Minimum Terms & Conditions of Employment For Irish Stablestaff Signed on behalf of the Irish Racehorse Trainers Association : Signed on behalf of the Irish Stablestaff Association: Jim Kavanagh Bernard Caldwell Noel Meade Patrick Doyle Michael Halford Michael Maher Dated this ______ day of______ 2008 |
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I haven't got time to read all that.
Are these stable hands being paid an hourly rate (or even an overtime rate) plus 50 quid expenses? |
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Any mention in that of the share of prize money they also receive?
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So they've just moved it back to the normal evening meeting rate then? The additional amount was a "Dundalk special" rate?
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