GAA people under 40 .

these days, a back can take a hand-pass from the goalkeeper and work the ball up the field to a colleague with a succession of hand-passes until someone is in a position to kick a point

i definitely have a problem with that. unfortunately there is a dearth of players with a genuine skill at long-range passing. Ciaran mcDonald was a great exponent

Ruins gaelic football - a farce.

Been converted by a friend of mine (though initially disagreed with it, until I thought it through) to the proposal - can't handpass forwards. Handpass as much as you like after that.

Most reading this, will be like me and dismiss it out of hand, without thinking it through. Think about for a while, and imagine you had to coach a team and how it would change things. Takes a while and its interesting, to play it out to your conclusions. Logically you would think, you mean "ban the backward hand-pass" but that would in fact make things worse.

Its not that much different than now in that its about 50-50 hand-passes made forward or backwards, so it reduces by 50% - but the principal impact is the chief means of moving forward is by kicking. though you can still move forward by hand-passing backwards to a forward-running player - a skill in itself.

The accusation that it would mean teams would just boot the ball up the field doesn't hold-up, things have moved on, the most successful teams would develop strategies of movement up front so forward players could be picked out for passes. A far more fluid and exciting game - in fact it would be very much like hurling in its movement.

Part of the present day problem ( to me ) is that certain managers and certain counties rationalised the capabilities of their squads ( and their previous inability to succeed at the highest level ) and evolved a "possession football " ethic , in which the hand pass played a huge part . Naturally they dont want to revert to a more catch and kick game as previous , and they will fight their corner to preserve what they see as "proper or acceptable football ".

The beauty of hurling , apart from individual high skill stick activity , is the speed with which the ball is transferred from one end of the pitch to the other . Soccer and rugby type "skilful build-ups " are OK if you like that sort of thing , but should never have been allowed to supplant the quick movement / long kicked pass game .  Maybe SKY have a lot to answer for in helping to invade the minds of some our traditional GAA afficionados .

Wallflower , the problem with determing whether a hand pass is backwards or forwards is the biggest problem in your proposal .  Every rugby match I see nowadays is bedevilled by promising movements being thwarted by a forward pass .  I never played much rugby , but from a very young age giving a forward pass was a " mortal sin " , and it was ingrained in the psyche not to do it .  Rugby coaches nowadays I suspect favout the "flat pass " rather than the backward pass , trying to gain an edge . But the frequency of illegal passes in rugby nowadays does nothing for the game  , just interrupts the flow of the open game .  Wouldn't want our football to fall into the same situation .

The game evolves and the beauty of it is that other teams have to counteract different systems and methods, I definitely don't want to revert to the kick it in to the big ff system of years ago, teams are allowed to play to their strengths!

One of the biggest assets our native games is that you have to "play the ball " every 3 seconds or so in whatever mode you see fit . In soccer and rugby you can spend as long as you like on the ball as long as you dont foul it  , thats one of the big problems I have with those 2 games , skilful and exciting though they may appear to a lot , and why soccer matches in particular tend to send me to sleep .

Having said that in the 2011 season a lot of the football played by our now current All-Ireland football champions was dire to watch .  Luckily they have gone forward and now play a more expansive format . More kicking !

Kelly, its not really - and in the scheme of things not that important. I imagine an occasional forward pass would be missed in the course of a match, same way as a foul may be missed or any other infringement, same as soccer sometimes offside is called incorrectly. No game has 100% application of the rules. As i said, that doesn't bother me at all, and isn't really the point.

What is important is the way the game would be played. It would be like hurling, the hand-pass would be used as it was originally intended, get a player out of a tight situation quickly or set-up another man nearby in a better position. So hand-pass would used as originally intended, and it would be great to see the game evolve into a more kicking based and I'd suggest a more exciting and spectacular game.

I think hurling is one of the most over rated games that is played.The media especially micheal o'mur...(a bigot imo) hype it up as the best in the world.There is a certain level of skill,no question.

The issue I have with it,is people don't think the game through,it is all about excitement fair enough,get the ball from a to b as fast as possible,lots of scores etc etc,the quick fix for the spectator if you like,marty roaring and shouting and seeing nothing.

There are very few tactics involved in it,imo,eg two man full forward line seems about it,maybe an extra man in midfield.

Thats fine if it floats your boat,personally I prefer a game where tactics play a huge part,where you have to think more about the game.

I'm not saying it is a bad game,just over rated,and it is only played by a handful of counties.

Ever tried to play it , Punting ?

The skill levels of the top teams are fantastic , and have risen over the last 10 years particularly .  And for amateurs the fitness and dedication is trememndous .

As for Michael being a bigot , cant believe such a statement , guess you have never met him .

It is played by a lot of counties by the way , but its such a difficult game to play at the highest level that only about 6 or 8 have ever mastered it .  Compared with the relative boredom of most soccer matches and the turgid recycling of a lot of rugby matches , hurling is a breath of fresh air .  At the highest level  , but at a low level it is hard to watch , thats the problem .

For what reason do you call him a bigot?

You can't score without the ball and your opponent can't score when you have the ball. Why then would you want to lump the ball forward when it's probably 50/50 whether you retain possession when you can hand pass it to a teammate and retain possession while moving into an attacking position with less chance of losing possession.

I see nothing at all wrong with it and have no idea why a lot on here have moaned and moaned about it and moaned and moaned about Donegal for the last 2 years seems like clever play to me.


Anyway i'm no GAA expert, know f all about it in reality.

Nothing wrong with your logic , Premier , you cant score without the ball . But possession sport in any form is boring boring boring , big problem with rugby at the moment but nobody seems to want to change it for a more open game  .  Eventually the punters will vote with their feet though , a few more games like that in atrocious conditions in Biarritz last Friday and stadiums will empty pronto .

Gaelic football and hurling both evolved as competition between teams involving essentially 14 individual battles throughout the field , on a large field ( 160 yards long versus soccer and rugbys 100 yards ) where people had room to express their ability and skill , including catching and kicking .  Eliminate catching and kicking ( largely ) and its basketball .  OK of you want that , but I am a traditionalist and I like movement and competition and excitement . Very little excitement arising from Donegals activity in 2011 , died in the wool supporters I know wouldn't go to watch them in 2011 for fear of psychological contamination .

Its about style , competition , individuality , excitement , mighty scores . Puke retention football you can keep . Watch Barca if you like lots of passing ( like them by the way , one of the few soccer teams you can watch week in and week out ) but I enjoy the individual battles we used to see Sunday after Sunday enacted out on our pitches the length and breadth of our country .

I didn't slate the game,just say it is over rated (imo) due mostly to the lack of tactics.

Micheal,is (imo as well),a bigot,although well disguised,doesn't mean he is not a nice man.He very frequently knocks other sports in a subtle way,if you know what I mean.

The most tactical game I know is chess . Does not make it good viewing though , Punting . Maybe good to play , but not to watch .  Basketball maybe the same , also ice hockey , but not to watch .

Guess liking Gaelic sports makes us all bigots too .  Happy to join Michael that way .

I very much doubt if knocking other sports in a subtle way is sufficient to call a person a bigot.Maybe if you looked at the proper definition of bigot you might realise this.

kelly imo the game of gaelic football has evolved from a game thru the50s, 60s,70s and 80s were 40r5 exceptional players carried teams to all irelands to the 90s were teams had 10 or 11 exceptional players to the 2000s were donegal and Tyrone have brought the game to a new height both in skill,fitness and commitment with squads of 20 men capable of gracing any team in the country.....just have to watch a copy of the down teams of the 60s or a kerry dublin game from the 70s early 80s.....some of basic skill levels from some playes on these teams were actually pretty poor.....in some instances players struggled to solo the ball without the ball firing back out over the top of the players heads.....the down team of the 90s took the game to a new level imo with their direct style and superior fitness,this has been surpassed by Tyrone and now again by donegal....although not pretty to watch at times we must accept it is basically the same rules as previous bar a few minor alterations......i think eugene mcgee is talkin utter nonsense regarding this.......my opinion is the teams from the 50s 60s 70s or 80s wouyld struggle to compete 15 for 15 against todays pretenders.....just my opinion of course ....its like comparing horses from different eras....noone will ever know....

may i just add 2 absolutely moronic posts by punting for profit....and it is clear to see who the bigot is...(imo)

Richters , if you took the good players from the past and trained them the way it happens nowadays you would have one great team .  The Down players from the 60's will tell you that fitness was 3 laps around the pitch and football . But they lasted for a long time because of that .  Very few of the modern players will last until their early thirties , burn out , niggly injuries etc . You will also know that at the age of 40 Mickey Linden was the best player anywhere in Down  , but in his prime he wasn't the best player on that Down squad and most of his team mates could manage to mark him at club level .  Down 91 would have given Down 2010 a 3 goal start and beaten them  , fitness and all included . So no progress over 20 years , and Down 2010 were within a kick or two of being All-Ireland champions that year .

Martin Clarke was Down's best that year , not within a beagles gowl of Greg Blaney for 10 years plus from 1983 to 1994 .

Kerry have been the best overall in the last 17 years in my opinion , and have played attractive football generally .  However they have been forced to change their style because of the possession football syndrome , and to attain and maintain fitness levels they have put their bodies under such strain that they have collectively suffered a lot of injuries . None lasting to age 40 or even 35  , with club burn out too . Jacko was Kerrys best player in 1991  at age 34 ( despite Spillanes assertion that he ( Spillane ) deserved an All-Star that year  --did he ever watch the semifinal video that year ? ) .  Class is permanent . Spillanes 9 All Stars will never be approached though .

Very few of the teams outside Kerry have players with the general skill levels I identify as important  , which includes high fielding ability , tackling  ( lost art ) , defending  , long passing , beating a man , shooting .  4 of our Down current defenders might be able to run around for 70 minutes , hand pass , maybe solo OK , but  high catching and playing  good football or defending ?

And Down aren't the worst team in Ireland .

Comparing generations is always contentious . In 40 years time some of that new  generation will be doubting the ability ascribed to Frankel , like wise there will be an Arkle challenger ( how many of those have fallen well short ? ) , and Tiger Woods will only be a 14( ? )  Major statistic for some .  But will we ever see their like again .  I doubt it .

Donegal this year have played brilliantly , only Kerry really could have challenged them . But overall I see few outstanding footballers out there at present in most counties .  On the other hand I see a lot of brilliant hurlers , not only in Kilkenny .  Their skill levels have risen in my opinion in the last 20 years , the footballers have not .

Wondering when some football team starts training at altitude .

Lads, Don't worry about the way the word bigot is used on this foum. In some quarters the word is used to describe followers of the GAA. Rocketfingers and his lads will vouch for this.

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/sport/gaa/gaa-clock-ticking-for-radical-change-16249058.html

Some good ideas and some absolute claptrap in there,

Is using the open palm rather than the closed fist a prority?, in fact I never heard anybody complaining about it, leave it as it is, what the hell constitutes an accidental foul or a deliberate foul? a foul is a foul is it not?, ok you can accidently clip heels but most fouls are deliberate are they not?.

I'm a great believer in allowing players to pick the ball straight off the ground rather than the use of the toe, it will help the game flow, less and less chance of the player in possession getting surrounded.

The introduction of the stopped clock is a no brainer, no referee should have the faith of a team in his hands, once the clock runs down nobody can complain from players, mentors and rival fans alike.

I agree that club football at senior level should be 70 mins not the current 30.

Anyone harping back to the old days should look at the 1973 final between Cork and Galway, braindead football, just constant aimless hit and hope balls, some good fielding of the ball but did anybody ever teach them tactics?
.
The hand pass is here to stay some teams use it more than others, its particulary used when coming out of defence, but there is still plenty of kick passes in the game, balls are often kicked long distance in to on-running corner forward. Personally I prefer the more team orientated support play of the modern game.

The sacrifices these players have to make is astounding for a supposed amateur sport, their fitness levels are on a par with or even superior to their professional counterparts in other ball games, even at club level you have to make huge sacrifices such has been the evolution of the modern game, and for little or no reward, for most the only reward is the faint hope of Glory!.

What a most predictable reaction to my posts,but I was more than surprised at some of Kelly's comments,(a very fair and balanced contributor),this led me to reread my two posts.

First of all I love Gaelic Football,I like hurling too,but just stated it was over rated imo.

The main fuss is over my comments on Micheal,and I did say he was a nice man.I hold my hand up,and say bigot was over the top,what I should have said is that he has a bigoted/blinkered attitude towards sports other than gaelic games/racing,in my opinion.

Fair dos Punting .  Michael also loves greyhound racing and golf . 4 sports to know inside out is pretty good for starters .  And in at least 2 languages .

The Kerry lads are not all GAA fanatics . Have met some who are into rowing in a big way-- dont remember exactly but met some way back at a rowing regatta in Cork . Guess that's the Maharees and Valentia influence --think it was Micko but not sure .

kelly have to agree with your anaylsis of the down 91 team and the down 2010 team......the point being that 2010 team fumbled their way to a final which they should of won but the fact being they would of imo been the worst team ever to win an all ireland......indeed i would say 10 of the starting 15 wouldnt even have made it onto the 91 panel let alone starting 15......must say although about the donegal team not having many exceptional players.....imo the modern game is more about mobility and indeed the 14 outfield donegal players could play in any position on the field......as positions mean nothing......in contrast i couldnt imagine brendan mc kernan playing in the same role as neil mc gee or even paddy o rourke in the karl lacey role.....

All the Donegal players are good , richters  , and about a third of them are very good  , as is the way with most All-Ireland winning teams .

Reference tactical play , think the first team to apply very specific tactics were the Down team of the early sixties . They knew they couldn't match the exceptional and stylish Kerry fielders ( particularly) of the time , so they broke the ball and picked the empties around midfield . Wouldn't have had to do that if P T Treacy had been a Down man  , should have kept him in Violet Hill for 10 years after school .

Interesting to see if Donegal can maintain discipline and application among players and management for next season or two . The job situation may have some part to play in that , and Donegal is so spread out it must be difficult to keep a panel all facing the same direction between travel etc .

So Karl Lacey or McHugh could play up full forward according to richters

I'm not surprised he loves greyhound racing seen as the facking IGB went and bought him a dog for his retirement, facking stupid. If he wanted a dog that much he could have bought one with his own money like the rest of us.

bird o donnell please dont destroy this thread with your nonsense......it is to technical 4 you for a start......create another moronic little thread on your own pretending to be someone else and dont destroy the good threads because you dont know anything about what is being discussed........

good point premier......as a matter of interest how much would a dog like rioga have cost?

A lot, have heard numbers but wouldn't like to put them up here. Can't remember at what stage they bought Rioga but they obviously knew what they had at the time (Dolores).

At a time when greyhound prize money was getting cut (near halfed) across the board they go and waste money buying him a dog it really beggars belief

and he has won a tidy sum of prize money from this dog as well.....did he give any back to igb premier?did he also have share in mcguigan?

Never heard about him owning any part of McGuigan, does PJ own any dogs with anybody else? No idea but don't imagine he has given any of the prize money to them. Sure it ain't his fault they gave him the dog so my gripe ain't with him, it's the twats who thought it would be a good idea to waste money they didn't have in getting him the dog.

Premier , he was always into dogs before that .  Used to come north every year to do a "Night at the dogs " on RTE radio for the National Sprint at Dunmore ( and it closed mid nineties ) . Got to know  him a fair bit at that stage  , plus meeting him doing his "homework " pre broadcast when he came north for  the important  football matches  braodcasts during the triple D winning streak  .  One of his daughters used to come with him , she was his "wingman" I think .   

Richters , we won that 91 season without 2 players who had been groomed for senior success , but both broke legs and it wrecked their football careers ( but not their "other career " in one case ). Bun Quinn would have been right back ( and Flynn would not have run riot ) and Brian Conlon would have been half forward , releasing Gary Mason to play in his best positon ( full back ). Brian Conlon prospered partly as a result of that injury from my reading of his post football after life ( First Derivatives --google them - 60 million plus operation  ) , but I am sure he would have traded part of that for an All-Ireland medal or two .  Brilliant footballer when there were a lot about in our county . Could do with them now . 

And richters , those 2 players you mentioned  would have been the least capable in that squad of playing the versatile role , but I suspect you knew that . Most of the others could have , and often did for their clubs .

yeah conlon a great player kelly....played in the 90 league final i think......mark quinn came back and played senior around 92/93 but never cut the grade....other players you could throw into the mix were brendan mason,shorty,...did i see someone write on here one day kelly saying you were related to john kelly......remenber him playing centre half back one day in newry in a league game against derry and he marked dermot mc nicholl.......mc nicholl was on one of his usual surging runs down the centre when john kelly put an abrupt end to this with a massive (but fair)challenge.......often seen him playing midfield for carryduff in years after the all ireland.....and just on the subjectof positions....i saw neil collins playing full forward for carryduff in a div 2 league game agains atticall 1 year.......collins is also a md of newry based multi national glen electric......

Have lost touch with the greyhound scene myself lads  , so wouldn't have a clue about your discussions .  However Premier , Michael had "legs" in dogs years ago , and would have been shrewd enough to know like most of us that owning your own dog ( or horse ) completely and paying alone for everything was an expensive luxury . Only viable if you had facilities yourself and/or were a very shrewd and organised gambler .

My father used to have a fair number of dogs way back , on his own , but packed it in largely when us kids started to take up the spare time . Cost him money though even if he was pretty shrewd  , but when the bookies twig you and you have to take cramped odds or none at all its time to ride off into the sunset and explore other possibilities .

Yeah richters , John Kelly always punched above his weight , and marked nearly all the dangermen in those days --McNicholl ( what a player , built like a brick sh**house and fast  ) , Spillane , Jacko   , Dowd , Tohill  etc . Anthony was the hardest to mark , 5 inches taller and one of the best players I have seen  , Down could not or would not mark him . Not surprising considering one of their management team stood and told me that he did not rate Anthony --I walked away bemused , and worried , Derry beat us 4 days later , Tohill had a great game , destroyed us .

Needed Barry Breen to mark Anthony , Barry was tall enough and with his basketball know how knew how to thwart exceptional players --just see what happened in the final when they stupidly took Barry off   , Gerry McEntee took over , under control up to that substitution  , nearly cost us big time .  Meath were a very good team . 9 years out of 10 they would have won with that squad , beat us in the League final pre 91 by a couple of points , but we came away thinking we had a fair chance of matching them . And Meath came off the Croke Park pitch that day looking again at some of their opponents , skill and commitment had registered . Liked most of the Meath boys , couple of bolli*s among them  , but overall sound . As were their supporters  , fair play to them  , must have been hard after such a long and traumatic campaign to lose to a team unconsidered by the southern media .

have to agree kelly.....pete mc grath a great manager but at times tactically very naive......although you could counteract that with the substitution of john kelly with paul higgins on joe brolly in celtic park 1994.....imo john kelly was not suited to the corner back role......if that meath team had of won they might well of gone down as one of the greates....making downs achievment all that better imo.....

Sound , richters . John Kelly never played corner back ever at any age in a career which spanned 20 years plus  , putting him in there was nothing to do with him , it was to drop Higgins , John was the pawn . Backfired , like most idiotic things do . Despite the euphoria post "match of the decade" the Down dressingroom was pretty fraught  that day , some very unhappy bunnies post match , team was never as good again in my opinion , morale suffered  , the players always know whats going on . Nearly cost us the match too those pre match machinations , given that a couple of our defenders , not John , went walkabout for first 20 minutes and Derry were flooding forward with little opposition . The Derry players afterwards said they could not believe how easy it was for them in the first 20 minutes , most of them felt they were not being marked . Hard to defend that and Joe Brolly was the man to exploit space , particularly as he didnt have to compete for any ball ,( jump , you are joking , Joe tells that against himself ) it was coming on a plate . Paul Higgins was a very good corner back as he proved over many years , and he could also play anywhere , though  he couldn't mark Colm O'Rourke when he came on in 91 at corner forward . Not my words , his dads .

Luckily for Pete and the team the substitutions Down made woke up the team , the subs had a day out and Greg took up the baton and controlled the game . And John Kelly took a bit out of Anthony just before he was taken off , left him sitting on the byeline  ,  shaking his head , slowed him up a bit I suspect , watch the video .

Re Pete , one of my oldest GAA friends who worked alongside Pete betimes ( not teaching ) always says that one of Petes greatest assets was that he carried luck with him . Helps sometimes .

eamonn coleman getting the sack after that match was a joke

i can remenber the challenge on tohill......imo jk was one of the toughest players that ive seen playing the game.....and i can tell ye he gave down/beggy and coyle their share of knocks in the final and although selected on the right i seem to remember him taking a more central role with POR going out to the wing and DJ switching.....i also think he was vice captain in 91......i think ger canning mentions in the final commentary that jk never played much underage football......great days for me as a 12 yo kelly....meeting my teacher liam austin on the pitch after the game.......although on hindsight it could of backfired bringing big astin on as he struggled with mc entee and the rampany liam hayes.......a true gentle man liam austin and a fully deserved medal winner......

freddiek i think he tabled much criticism in derry for persisting in keeping his son gary marking mickey linden who ran riot....

If he was ( cannot remember ) I agree freddiek .  Dont think Derry did much wrong that day , Down just had a day out after a shaky start and the ball ran for them . But the Derry  county board were running at a very high octane level that day , one of them physically and verbally set upon another of my friends for no reason other than chagrin . Emotion such as that possibly influenced subsequent decisions .

Remember Eamonn pre Derry management days , the Poly used to fly him over for pre match "talks" in the Sigerson competition . Psyching them up . But I think he was a good motivator , Lord rest him .

Richters , you obviously know the strength . John Kelly has reams of under age medals , school ( Red High - with six on the 91 squad ) ,club and  county . He gained ( as did most of the Down lads ) from very well organised county under 16 teams who played and trained ( under Pete McGrath as it happens ) with lots of backing from the County board  . Plus minor . Down went out to a very good Donegal minor team in 1985 , the bones of their 1992 All Ireland team  I suspect , despite Down  putting out what one of my friends described as the best minor defence he had ever seen . And he should know . Gary Mason at full back , John at centre half back ,Mark Quinn right corner back  .  And Barry Breen amd Mark McCartan as forwards  or midfield . Withnell did not make that team , or the under 16 squad , slipped through the net despite advancements for his cause from the ( quiet?) Drumaness supporters . You cant catch all the fish .

Incidentally richters , Gary Mason came over to me a couple of months ago in a restaurant and I discovered in the course of conversation that he had a heart attack about 3 months ago , at age 45 . He looked OK , was in good spirits , but its a bit young to undergo that , for a young  strapping fellow who always looked very well togged out . Life is strange sometimes .

remember gary lining out full back in 1990 against armagh in casement in full back.......and his brother collie payed half bak and scored a point in 92 in casement against derry....jes thats hard to believe kelly.....he was penalty king in down for years yet ross or mickey took most of the penalts......a very much underated player nationally yet a pivotal member of that down team......and reverted to right half back at the expense of jk in 94.....its a funny old game......