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Santry
09 Dec 12 20:42
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Date Joined: 27 Aug 05
| Topic/replies: 3,936 | Blogger: Santry's blog
Just occured to me after yet another good big weekend for the Gigginstown operation just how many bad horses J.P.McManus owns in comparison. Probably sinks a lot more money into the game but have they got a decent horse that can compete at Grade 1 level in either Britain or Ireland.For a man that seems to have a talent for making money surely he can get better value from whats being spent.
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Report Allduckornodinner December 9, 2012 9:54 PM GMT
To be fair you only have to look at them in the parade ring to know which operation is targeting graded races. Most that run in the green and gold are bought as job horses.
Report Kriskin December 9, 2012 11:41 PM GMT
Who's responsiblke for buying his goats?  Is Frank Berry still involved?  I would do better in recruiting his horses than the current team
Report silvergreaser December 10, 2012 9:25 AM GMT
McManus sees an easy bumper winner from a small trainer and owner and he's on the phone 2 seconds later, impulse buying, money to burn, and why wouldn't the connections except such an outrageous offer for a 4 legged animal with no balls?. There might be an argument to say that JP is one of the biggest suckers in racing?, but if one out of a hundred gets him a publicity stunt in the Cheltenham parade ring job done, "the scourge of the bookmakers" headlined in all the papers, blah blah effing blah.
Report Kelly December 10, 2012 11:50 AM GMT
Everyone knows that NH racing owners are not in the game for profit, prize money and economics define that , so they are there for the love of horses / racing /the thrill of the chase . Lots of the "small men " have been kept afloat by the sale of some fairly average horses to the likes of JP . Having your name on the "list" of winners of prestige races comes with a price tag , JP knows that as well as anybody .

JP likes to have runners every day I suspect , but its not about gambling for him, but there are a lot of strands and trainers plus friends in the overall scene , and it would take a magician to be in control of all of these . And we all know its not that hard to change the prices on horses , particularly early morning when the bookies are running scared and the odd hundred on a big priced one can make the price plummet .

In the interview a few weeks back , the gist of JP's rationale was that he is sort of addicted to winning , and like AP a success at a minor meeting fulfils that desire as much as a grade 1 winner ( prize money irrelevant as in para 1 ). Guess its his money , and it is helping to keep the game afloat in Ireland and England .

And I dont think JP would be jealous of Gigginstown's great recent run .
Report punchestown December 10, 2012 4:25 PM GMT
By god he does buy more than his fair share of Yaks all the same.
Report brain dead jockeys December 10, 2012 5:43 PM GMT
the godolphin of NH.
Report RoyalAcademy December 10, 2012 5:56 PM GMT
some people never have a good word to say about anything.

I've never heard of JP shafting anyone in the racing game and he is loyal to the end. It is a strange operation that he finds himself paying for but who knows what happens behind the scenes.

Western Man and Ronnie O'Leary would be my idea of a horse to be on in a handicap hurdle at Limerick over Christmas; running him in a chase recently at Wexford was probably the prep run. Alternatively, there are a few handicaps that are targetted before Christmas that have landed touches over the years.
Report Ozymandius December 10, 2012 7:57 PM GMT
JP is an inspiration to us all.  If he can make millions, surely we all can?
Report Kelly December 10, 2012 8:45 PM GMT
Old saying , if it was that easy , everyone would be doing it  , Ozy .

JP's trick , if it can be described as such , was in using his initially hard won  assets to good effect .  Part of his success was in picking good people to employ to advise him and to work with . In that respect he seems to have ultimate loyalty as no-one seems to leave and he is ( apparently ) still operating successfully . Have to give him big credit for a lot of reasons .

How many  contributors to these columns would you employ , Ozy  in his circumstances ?
Report Arklearkle December 10, 2012 9:08 PM GMT
Ozy you say "if he can make millions, surely we all can?". By extension then are you saying no one should pay tax either. JP is very loyal and I believe all the good things people say about him here but I just have a problem with him if he operates as a tax exile. But like others I am really amazed at the number of bad horses he has accumulated. Perhaps he has saved many from the glue factory and perhaps saved some of their trainers also.
Report Ozymandius December 10, 2012 9:28 PM GMT
The man is a complete mystery to me.

His wikipedia entry is telling; It is unclear how McManus accumulated his vast wealth and what his expertise is

Very little is known about his currency operation. 

Compared with focus and efficency of Gigginstown, his NH operation appears to be a shambles.

But shure he is a great fella.
Report brain dead jockeys December 10, 2012 10:47 PM GMT
i agree withe the last comments.........i have no idea how he accumulated such wealth........maybe he made a million or two punting and bookmaking............but how u turn that into a couple of billion by speculating on currencies is beyond me.
one point to make is that JP makes his current income outside of ireland and in my opnion he is correct in avoiding paying irish tax on that.
his NH operation is a total failure..........he doesnt seem to have any decent horses. they r a bunch of donkeys but fair play to him in keeping all those trainers in a job.
Report paddletoe December 11, 2012 12:29 AM GMT
Its interesting that no one seems to know exactly how Mc Manus made his money or how much he is worth.


Its seems he won money as a punter on the horses in his early life but its speculated he is a billionaire. Now i know its possible to use leverage to finance deals but he must be on some run to turn his early modest wealth into so much by dealing on the currency markets. You would have thought at some point over the years he would have bet big on the currency markets took a hit. In such a speculative market he seems bomb proof even in world recessions.

Abromovich can seem to account for his vast wealth but Mc Manus is a complete mystery man.Every town in Ireland has a person who is a mystery man where folk think how does so and so do it with no visible means of income. But Mc Manus is an international mystery man on a different level. Reminds me of the old Gregory Peck film, the million pound note.

If he really is worth around a billion then tens of millions here and there on horses is no big deal. All part of the advertising budget to make him a celebrity in business where he can mix with sporting stars and the likes.

Would you rather have a billion and be unknown or spend 20 million of that billion to be close friends with Tiger Woods.
Report Mr Mischief December 11, 2012 1:09 AM GMT
Gigginstown have never owned one as good as Istabraaq.
Not near as good
Report wixim December 11, 2012 1:26 AM GMT
Royal acad. No offence meant here but you have made two points in your post.However I can safely say that one of them is the most deluded I have ever read on this forum. As to which one I'm sure most will know . once again ,no offence meant
Report pa lapsy December 11, 2012 7:21 AM GMT
Speculation on my part and more in reply to Paddlletoe,s post.I wonder was he involved in "Black Wednesday"? The time frame might be right and it was without trying to be crude every financial traders "wet dream". George Soros was reputed to have walked away a billionaire that day.
Report dj876 December 11, 2012 8:02 AM GMT
I know you are referring to the pound PA but I believe a large percentage of his wealth was made on the devaluation of the Mexican Peso in the early 90s.

Some of the earlier posts on this thread are as "green" as I have ever seen on here.
Report pa lapsy December 11, 2012 8:48 AM GMT
That actually rings a bell from somewhere alright dj.
He obviously loves his racing and it formed a large part of his early life,suppose with his wealth now its a hobby with a view to getting a few winners at Cheltenham,never going to be able to spend it in probably a few lifetimes anyway.
Saying that i,d probably fall into the "green camp" in regards the way some of his horses are run as if they are being prepared for a gamble,while it would have been no surprise say 20 years ago.Might be totally wrong i,m not so sure is he bothered too much these days with a punt except maybe Cheltenham but it almost looks at times as if some of his trainers have "carte blanche" to do what he did in his younger days.
Report dj876 December 11, 2012 9:11 AM GMT
The "green" reference Pa had more to do with the accumulation of his initial chips and him never shafting anyone in the racing game.
Having said that I believe his son Ciaran takes an avid interest in the racing operation so wouldn't be surprised if there is a profit being turned somewhere.

Silver G would enjoy this with good old Brosnan and his croom house stud.
http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/magnier-and-mcmanus-are-poised-to-offload-castlebeck-3319797.html
Report pa lapsy December 11, 2012 9:42 AM GMT
Surprisingly rare knockback for that crew concerning Castlebeck,you could see the initial attraction of a growth industry but what went on was a disgrace by the staff that worked in that private hospital.
Know Jp was being named as one of the names at the start of the daq, maybe his son has some involvement there?,that would only be conjecture.
Report keen leader December 11, 2012 10:49 AM GMT
jp as he freely admits is a gambler, who for most of his life was in boom or bust mode. part of his successful stint when bookmaking/gambling would have bordered on risque practices by times.

the irish world of stock broking up until the early 80's was a small entidy controlled mainly by old money jewish families in dublin. a young hungry turk called dermot desmond joined one such firm NCB, worked his way up the ladder, whilst in unison becoming part of the shelbourne set. the latter link eventually brought its rewards as NCB when desmond rose to the top there, got the haughey/ff nod of approval and were rewarded some lucrative floatations, and loads of dosh came into the coffers. desmond was hungry, inventive, ambitious and unlike many others in the what was a conserative leaning industry, willing to take an investment punt. aided by one of the best teams in the broking arena they made a number of wise and profitable investments.

somewhere along the line, as desmond sought to play in deeper financial pools, he sought out fellow investors/gamblers who were prepared to help up the stakes. magnier and mcmanus came aboard.
at the time, in the early 1990's from what i can remember, mcmanus would have been worth less than a couple of million.

the key investment deal was the collapse of the peso in the mid 90's.
in the space of a day or two, the peso fell from 4-1 v the dollar to 7-1 v the dollar, and short sellers were cleaning up, the US govenment pumped in billions to halt the decline. apparently many big european currency players were set up for life as a result of the profits they earned due to the collapse. it is assumed the irish players were amongst those that profited.

a key point to make on the peso collapse, is that the mexican government were in turmoil for many months and a collapse was inevitable. importantly, from the mega profitable short selling game, it was a massive advantage to know, close to hand, when the actual collapse would happen. it has been claimed that certain individuals within the mexican system, on the eve of the collapse, marked the cards of certain currency speculating firms, and these firms were the ones that made a mint. hence the old " inside info" much talked about within racing, was critical in what is viewed as the pivotal currency play of the era.
if you do your homework, you will note that jp from that point starting getting bigger and bigger, and now has his own currency/investment squad.

my summary, desmond had the business knowledge and initiative, add in the likes of magniers and jps natural inclination to take a gamble, and marrying at the right time, turned jp from a boom/bust bookmaker/punter into a multi millionaire. not a chance you would make 20 or 30 million punting on horses or sports, as no one would lay you in the long run.

as someone has pointed out, i would say 90%+ of jps wealth has been earned through investments outside of ireland, so you can argue that by buying all these horses and looking after scores of trainers he is inward investing.
Report Ozymandius December 11, 2012 10:55 AM GMT
It's only speculation to suggest that JP made a killing on Black Wednesday, I don't think it has ever been documented.

He did make a chunk of change selling on Man Utd, am I right in saying this is his only only significant successful public deal?

And as regards the curreny operations in Switzerland, does anyone know anyone who has ever worked for him?  How many are employed, turnover, approach, etc..

We know more about Roman Abramovitch that we do this man.
Report Kelly December 11, 2012 11:12 AM GMT
Yes , Ozy , I know someone who works for/ with him . Have not spoken to him for many years though , he moved away from here a while ago and I have only seen him once in about the last 10 years , and the opportunity to speak with him did not happen as we were both in company in the same restaurant and it was only a nodding exchange . Horsey intersts too my acquaintance  , plus banking all his working life when he retired he was at the top in banking circles . Shrewd cookie , but decent also , true Irish .

Like most of the older guys on here I have had bets with JP way back in the 70's when he was a mere gossoon ( not sure on the spelling ) and he was down the line . The other bookies of that time ( a different breed from the current bean counters ) all respected JP and were happy to do business with him , his record was good . Not to be mentioned in same breath as certain Russian oligarchs . He doesn't fire managers the way most of us change our shoes .
Report Ozymandius December 11, 2012 11:27 AM GMT
I know people who have advised him on various deals, Kelly, but I don't know who works for him in Switzerland on a full time basis.  Nor the size of the operation, nor the approach.

What I do know about him is he has a dodgy golf handicap, is a celebrity ho, treats the punters with disdain by not always campaigning his horses on their merits and is a tax exile and won't come clean about the genuine reasons why.  He constantly compensates for his tax status by publicly flagging his good deeds in the press.

Other than that fair play.  I am delighted to see anyone succeed, I just don't like the hero worship surrounding this fellow.
Report Newmanix December 11, 2012 11:32 AM GMT
Ozy, you dont get that successful by being a nice guy.
Report Kelly December 11, 2012 11:35 AM GMT
Ref JP's accumulation of wealth , his initial capital as I can recollect came from bookmaking , he was very good at it , and he was there in a time of plenty . A good friend of mine was a bookie in those days , he started from nothing , literally , and when he died 25 years ago he was worth 10 million plus . Proof , if proof were needed that there was a lot of money washing around the Irish racing / bookmaking scene back in the seventies and eighties . Validated , the tax man took some profit on his death , so it is a matter of record , not speculation .

If you went into the late eighties and early nineties in Ireland with say 5 million behind you , the world was your oyster in terms of getting the corporate nod and being "well informed " .  Throw in a few good property speculations and other ventures and you are away on a boat . Desmond was a player , Man U and Celtic , and then currency deals etc , property  outside Ireland , there is no mystery , no-one stole anything from the state or other people .  Plus Istabraq and other decent horses , when winning was more important financially than nowadays  , plus Coolmore in the days of plenty . Where's the mystery ?

And I think the figure is more like 500 million than a billion , the media and its followers like to talk in squillions . Think JP makes money every day as good businessmen do , and I also glean from his interviews that he is more risk averse than in his youth . His racing interests are only costing him the daily profit I suspect , capital intact . Good luck to him .
Report RoyalAcademy December 11, 2012 11:42 AM GMT
wixim,

its difficult to debate with someone who tells you that he has a bigger dick than you and yet keeps it in his trousers
Report Kelly December 11, 2012 11:53 AM GMT
JP certainly knows the handicapping system , racing and golf . He also seems to be the sort of person who can apply himself to a task , concentrating on it to the exclusion of other things .  Any person who plays golf can troll around for 10 months of the year , playing occasionally , but trying and not suceeding to win things .  Then for a couple of months you hone your game , surround yourself with experts ( Padraig et al ) , play night and day , and practice accordingly , bingo you are playing well . It's actually almost a life style selection , some people are naive enough to think that everybody out there tries their eyestrings out every day , most people just tick over , but some have the ability to raise their game on demand .  If that constitutes anything approaching illegality there are a lot of us "ordinary " folk who offend habitually . Most of the really good footballers I have seen can stroll through a game , but when the opportunity arises they are in like Flynn ( Irish bred too ) and come out with the bacon . You have to pace yourself in life , some do it better than others .  C'est la vie .

Its just like horses , bringing them to a peak for a selected day , they are not machines , even Tiger and Rory cant win on demand , it just is the result of good preparation , but not for 12 months of the year . How was Rory playing ( for him ) rubbish in June and July at the height of the golf season  , was he not trying  and just running up his handicap ?  Form is temporary , class is permanent .

And JP did win Champion Hurdles and Gold Cups etc .  Not all his horses are handicappers .
Report RoyalAcademy December 11, 2012 12:01 PM GMT
keen leader, I think you will also find a strong correlation between the peso devaluation and the increased spending by Coolmore on higher-profile third party stallion prospects.

There was a time in the early nineties where they had a voracious appetite for every modest stallion prospect that came on the market: Shalford, Tenby, Distinctly North (!!!) etc etc. My guess is that from mid-nineties onwards the Ballydoyle project became a plan and, overseas, they started to buy top prospects like Cigar, Hennessy and other pedigrees that had been previously outside their budget.

I've mislaid a few of their older brochures so I'm sure I've missed a few of their bigger buys.
Report CheltenhamRoar December 11, 2012 1:39 PM GMT
i wonder what horse C.Roche is currently preparing for their annual Christmas gamble.
i'll keep an eye out.
Report Kelly December 11, 2012 1:44 PM GMT
I would be happy to leave C Roche operation out of any equation I was formulating .  Bit like avoiding races in UK where a certain Irvinestown ex pat is involved .
Report brain dead jockeys December 11, 2012 5:16 PM GMT
anyone who wants to know the ins and outs of magniers coolmore operation and how he made such a fortune should read robert sangsters book " horse trader, the rise and fall of the sport of kings".........its the best horseracing book ever........a riveting read.......
magnier, o brien and sangster gambled massively on the NORTHERN DANCER line and boy did they CASH IN..........
Report irish_guy_13 December 12, 2012 1:31 AM GMT
no one mentions the devalueation of the irish punt in 1993??
Report wixim December 12, 2012 4:42 PM GMT
Royal Ac - dj876 seems to have been a bit more diplomatic but does however appear to possibly concur with my notion.
Report Santry December 12, 2012 7:42 PM GMT
As the origonal poster of this topic we will probably never know exactly how J.P McManus makes his money but i'm more interested in posters on views how he spends it on his NH operation. I believe that unless he regards it as a semi charity he can get better value for money. He think he may fund the Jonjo operation in Britain which is hardly a roaring success either.
Report kavvie December 12, 2012 9:46 PM GMT
he owned istabraq..greatest  hurdler ever.he owned garde champatre,binocular,baracuda,dont push it,synchronised.in last few years he won ch hurdle, gold cup and grand national..not bad for an unsucessful owner as he has been called here?!.
Report kingrat December 12, 2012 9:50 PM GMT
6 out of  say 500 horses, is hugely impressive kavvie,if thats yre bag.
Report CheltenhamRoar December 12, 2012 9:56 PM GMT
Garde Champetre Laugh

How much did they pay for him??Admirable horse,But no where neat top class
Report kavvie December 12, 2012 9:58 PM GMT
by the way some people are talking here he never won anything of note..he won lots.sheik mo never won a derby in his own colours..how many tries had he?..i know he has a lot of dross but thats his choice...im sure they are valuable in their own way!!?
Report kingrat December 12, 2012 10:03 PM GMT
how are they valuable in their own way?
Report kavvie December 12, 2012 10:09 PM GMT
think about it kingy..you have and u know what i mean!!
Report kingrat December 12, 2012 10:18 PM GMT
i dont know what u mean m8.can u please explain it to me?
Report kavvie December 12, 2012 10:46 PM GMT
no
Report Kelly December 12, 2012 11:13 PM GMT
You own a wine shop , a local regular comes in  , he picks out 6 bottles , does not ask the price , pays for them and exchanges pleasantries .  And you know he will be back if he likes them , because he does it all the time . And he likes your shop .

Do you advise him that he can buy them cheaper in Tesco or Sainsburys or Asda or..?

Or that he would be better off letting you be his buyer and you could pick him better wines ?

Or do you just do the sensible thing , stock the odd bottle he likes , bank the money and thank the Lord for the fact that you have a good relationship with one prime customer who obviously has a mind of his own . Personally I would be happy to see him driving off in his RR ( or whatever , there is no indigenous Irish car industry --De Lorean tried that with a lot of tax payers money help from the British Treasury ) having given me a turn .

JP picks and chooses himself , its his prerogative , he spends his money the way he sees fit and it helps economies here and in England . Just indulge him and thank the Lord . If he enjoys the wine its a big bonus .
Report kavvie December 12, 2012 11:21 PM GMT
well put kelly..
Report Arklearkle December 12, 2012 11:32 PM GMT
He is drinking plonk though. Surely it would be better to sell him a better bottle at double the price - win-win.
Report Kelly December 12, 2012 11:35 PM GMT
Sentence 3 above , double Arkle .  Think he has had the odd bottle of Pouilly-Montrachet though ( class ) .
Report Arklearkle December 12, 2012 11:57 PM GMT
Garde Champetre was supposed to have been from a good year. Dont know who was supposed to have been interested in Teeling Star - but oh what a hang-over.
Report Kelly December 13, 2012 12:29 AM GMT
Its the sulphites Arkle intensifying the hangover . Friend of mine can drink 2 bottles of French if pushed  , no real after effects  , but half a bottle of Aussie red and he suffers for days . Horses for courses , Aussie red I can enjoy , their whites aint up to the mark generally .
Report Kelly December 14, 2012 3:16 PM GMT
Nice double today for JP at Cheltenham , and not with horses/ stables associated largely  with him in the past . At least the Irish bookies were not in the firing line largely .  Reckon that has paid for Christmas for some of JP's associates !
Report CheltenhamRoar December 14, 2012 3:24 PM GMT
Sounds like it's paid for your Christmas Kelly Laugh
Report workrider December 14, 2012 3:27 PM GMT
just won at bangor as well....
Report Kelly December 14, 2012 3:31 PM GMT
Followed the money as usual , Cheltenham .  But not for much .  Did fancy the Curtis horse after watching her interviewed before the race  , she was pretty tense from her body language and I interpreted that correctly . Tight enough though with Ruby in your shadow .
Report CheltenhamRoar December 14, 2012 4:08 PM GMT
Fishers Cross won with a lot in hand Kelly,May not have looked like that in the final furlong but that horse is a Graded animal winning a handicap imo
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