Irish Sports
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04 Dec 12
12:07
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05 Jun 08
Anyone with an interest in the machinations of the Irish Racing industry cannot but be disturbed by the fact that the HRI annual report for 2011 remains unavailable on their website three weeks before 2013 begins. If you want to form an opinion on their racecourses, tote division, ITM, costs-pensions and salaries-you are left completely in the dark.
Indecon has come and gone with nothing new and Denis Brosnan's replacement has yet to be announced.
Against a background of falling government "contributions" for the past few years, last years total of just shy of €45m must be in serious doubt and with the secrecy involved in HRI ("keep the heads down" and after the scandals of the O'Hagan resignation and Kavanagh's bonuses is the obvious conclusion to draw) the interested public does not get any information. What salary was required to attract the head of IBM's european operations to run the Tote from someone who remains entirely anonymous after four months? If the recent tote thread on the current operations is to be believed there is a policy of management by stealth at present.
My impression is that this outfit live in a bubble: a world of sycophantic pandering to the big fish, attendance at endless awards ceremonies, turning out for the high-profile occasions, benefitting from over-generous salaries and doing their best to stay out of the glare of publicity-for obvious reasons there are not too many campaigning journalists out there- and having a well-worn path to the door of the Minister for Agriculture makes for an easy life. In short, a barely accountable body that gets handed tens of millions of euros annually with little or no public debate on its distribution.
On the positive side the industry at the higher levels remains quite strong with amazing international demand for the best european stock but HRI can take none of the plaudits for this. Long may this continue and with superb owners, breeders, trainers and jockeys we have a still-great industry but an appalling failure to run the business at a grass roots level. My impression on national hunt racing is that the paradigm is shifting significantly with more and more trainers now training to sell with a greater number of young, promsing stock now making their debuts in point-to-points where there is a strong, ready-made market for promising horses-most of which are exported. Thus Mullins will become stronger than ever because the "small" trainer must sell (Eoin Doyle the latest exponent of this policy).
I am also puzzled as to how the much-heralded panacea of a 1% levy on all bets placed on Irish racing regardless of the location of the betting operator can possibly be policed and suggestions that this will "fill the financial hole" seem very aspirational to me. As Ive said in the past, expecting a Gibraltar-based bookie to admit, let alone fork out, to taking bets on Irish racing seems nuts.
In reality, the state of Irish racing is as follows:
* too many racecourses
* too many race meetings
* everyone scrambling for a smaller pie
* too many graded races (that have been increased year by year) with a result of small fields, uncompetitive races for the public and a perception that the big stables can pick up prize money for old rope. Good horses will always attract the racegoer and I would say that Sizing Europe's appearance in tne Morris Oil chase in Clonmel recently attracted the biggest crowd at that venue for many years.
* falling attendances for many years and I would say the real figure of genuine racegoers/punters going racing is a fraction of the official figures: these "official" attendance figures are liberally interpreted and a more informative figure of "paying customers" would be far more accurate or, at least, exclude all those who get in free for whatever reason.
* falling on-course bookmaker betting due to low attendances, inefficient markets and competition from on-line offerings
* an inefficient tote that is hamstrung by far too-high deductions and old working practices and should be spun off to private operators, if any can be found.
* an integrity system that seems to be on its knees and there would be very simple solutions to get this right if the will was in place-which it clearly is not.
* my days of attending race meetings are now few and far between. TV rights are making many tracks profitable without having to worry about the punter and thus prices charged for simple services continue to be prohibitive.
Kevin Blake wrote a good blog in this weekend's Irish Field on some suggestions as to how racecourses need to try harder to look after their main target audience. The proposals are sensible and I could add half-a-dozen of my own.
€45m is plenty of money to run a successful Irish racing product if hard decisions are taken. Ryanair is a by-word for efficiency and its somewhat ironic that Michael O'Leary is such a strong supporter of a very inefficient industry. He pays trainers what he thinks is a fair price and not many quibble. What figure does Irish racing "deserve"? What figure could it survive on and have a better product?
We will know part of the answer tomorrow.
Indecon has come and gone with nothing new and Denis Brosnan's replacement has yet to be announced.
Against a background of falling government "contributions" for the past few years, last years total of just shy of €45m must be in serious doubt and with the secrecy involved in HRI ("keep the heads down" and after the scandals of the O'Hagan resignation and Kavanagh's bonuses is the obvious conclusion to draw) the interested public does not get any information. What salary was required to attract the head of IBM's european operations to run the Tote from someone who remains entirely anonymous after four months? If the recent tote thread on the current operations is to be believed there is a policy of management by stealth at present.
My impression is that this outfit live in a bubble: a world of sycophantic pandering to the big fish, attendance at endless awards ceremonies, turning out for the high-profile occasions, benefitting from over-generous salaries and doing their best to stay out of the glare of publicity-for obvious reasons there are not too many campaigning journalists out there- and having a well-worn path to the door of the Minister for Agriculture makes for an easy life. In short, a barely accountable body that gets handed tens of millions of euros annually with little or no public debate on its distribution.
On the positive side the industry at the higher levels remains quite strong with amazing international demand for the best european stock but HRI can take none of the plaudits for this. Long may this continue and with superb owners, breeders, trainers and jockeys we have a still-great industry but an appalling failure to run the business at a grass roots level. My impression on national hunt racing is that the paradigm is shifting significantly with more and more trainers now training to sell with a greater number of young, promsing stock now making their debuts in point-to-points where there is a strong, ready-made market for promising horses-most of which are exported. Thus Mullins will become stronger than ever because the "small" trainer must sell (Eoin Doyle the latest exponent of this policy).
I am also puzzled as to how the much-heralded panacea of a 1% levy on all bets placed on Irish racing regardless of the location of the betting operator can possibly be policed and suggestions that this will "fill the financial hole" seem very aspirational to me. As Ive said in the past, expecting a Gibraltar-based bookie to admit, let alone fork out, to taking bets on Irish racing seems nuts.
In reality, the state of Irish racing is as follows:
* too many racecourses
* too many race meetings
* everyone scrambling for a smaller pie
* too many graded races (that have been increased year by year) with a result of small fields, uncompetitive races for the public and a perception that the big stables can pick up prize money for old rope. Good horses will always attract the racegoer and I would say that Sizing Europe's appearance in tne Morris Oil chase in Clonmel recently attracted the biggest crowd at that venue for many years.
* falling attendances for many years and I would say the real figure of genuine racegoers/punters going racing is a fraction of the official figures: these "official" attendance figures are liberally interpreted and a more informative figure of "paying customers" would be far more accurate or, at least, exclude all those who get in free for whatever reason.
* falling on-course bookmaker betting due to low attendances, inefficient markets and competition from on-line offerings
* an inefficient tote that is hamstrung by far too-high deductions and old working practices and should be spun off to private operators, if any can be found.
* an integrity system that seems to be on its knees and there would be very simple solutions to get this right if the will was in place-which it clearly is not.
* my days of attending race meetings are now few and far between. TV rights are making many tracks profitable without having to worry about the punter and thus prices charged for simple services continue to be prohibitive.
Kevin Blake wrote a good blog in this weekend's Irish Field on some suggestions as to how racecourses need to try harder to look after their main target audience. The proposals are sensible and I could add half-a-dozen of my own.
€45m is plenty of money to run a successful Irish racing product if hard decisions are taken. Ryanair is a by-word for efficiency and its somewhat ironic that Michael O'Leary is such a strong supporter of a very inefficient industry. He pays trainers what he thinks is a fair price and not many quibble. What figure does Irish racing "deserve"? What figure could it survive on and have a better product?
We will know part of the answer tomorrow.
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Replies: 29
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Interesting post and one which I will re read to digest fully.One point however it is not a 1% levy on all bets on Irish racing which is proposed rather a 1% levy on all bets placed from Ireland i.e. a point of consumption tax.
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Tolmi, surely there must be something more to this legislation other than bets placed from Ireland. This would make for simple legislation and not the long, drawnout process that is apparent at the moment? I have questioned exactly what is involved and if my interpretation is correct on a previous post but i admit I remain unclear.
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Well R/A, Tolmi would know all about a 1% levy, or a 2% levy or a 3% or 4% levy, as this crowd attempting to ruin our Country and of whom Tolmi speaks so warmly, are all about levies, and taxes. I'm pretty sure that the appropriate Minister will give huge granularity in relation to this levy, in the Budget.
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In common with many Fianna Fail supporters JayTrump seems to confuse the ability to remember the disasterous previous administration who lost our economic sovereignty with support for the current administration.Did we read many threads from you then as to how badly the economy was being run or were you one of the sheep who placed blind faith in Ahern,Cowen,Dempsey et al???
Royal...the Betting Amendment Bill 19th July 2012 is my reference. |
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the problem as I see it with the new proposed levy is that you are trying to capture tax placed by an irish resident on a platform that could be phone, internet or exchange with the accepting bookmaker possibly based in Kathmandu.
This suggests compliance is going to be a massive issue and do we face the possibility of wholesale bookies sites being blacklisted a la my disastrous attempts to bet on the Dubai World Cup when I visited a few years back? In any event, every major bookmaker and every exchange accept bets by phone and the notion that somehow my 1% will end up paying Brian Kananagh's fat pension is risible. Also, what impact will a 1% turnover tax rather than a gross profits tax have on exchanges? With the UK also looking to capture more taxes is this why the betfair model is changing to offer fixed odds? Indecon seemed to rely on HRI's estimates of this non-retail betting tax figure of €16m (in addition to the €27m raised annually from Irish bookies) and this seems pie-in-sky to me. As things stand and assuming the 1% levy has fallen in line with most other taxpaying sectors the government may be subsidising racing by €25m+ in 2013. The HRI stance is tax the punter and things will be o.k. and leave us to the annual wanton waste. In the meantime, I'm sorry, we cant afford to police the industry properly. To say that the industry needs a make-over is an understatement. By the way, the only stats that remain virtually static and suffering no drop from the "good years" are fixtures and, as a corollary the number of races run. This stupid situation persists because all TV rights go to racecourses. What a joke! |
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Interesting comments from Ralph Topping on tv rights in today's RP.
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I very much doubt he'd ever do it, but do you think Michael O'Leary would do a good job if put in charge of Irish racing?
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A 1% turnover tax could well result in either higher base commission rates or withdrawal of Betfair from Ireland.
The entire Indecon report made no mention of the €10m odd in media rights.It was merely an exercise to vindacate the continuation of giving the HRI money to squander it. |
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RoyalAcademy's posts are superb, honestly he's the best poster on here by some distance along with KL. One of the very few posters i actually take the time to read. I seen that fool wonky giving him abuse on another thread last night a sure sign that RA is an intellectual.
On RA's points if tax in future is raised and passed on to punters then then can you see the rise of brokers RA? . |
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If exchanges are taxed on a turnover basis with resulting increased base commission rates then I don't see how brokers will make any difference.There is no current proposal to pass any tax onto non exchange punters.
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Ref the Tote operation , most of it is impractical due to changed circumstances , and cant see any reason to make running it a high profile job .
The Tote as set up here cannot compete with bookies or exchanges , they have a single sport product , restricted to whatever the fixture list offers , and with little prospect of expansion . Even the most rudimentary examination of things inside racing here and basic analysis of operations elsewhere would yield that result in about 5 minutes . The only crumb left to a viable Tote Operation here is anti betting legislation out there among the general public ( unlikely ) , development of "specialist "markets which are unattractive to the bookies and the exchanges . Thus multiple picks per race enter the lists , placepots , jackpots , etc could become the mainstay of a very reduced operation , and running it could become almost a part time job . Have seen the Tab in OZ and the Hong Kong Jockey club operation in my travels , neither , which is very successful for those concerned , would cut the mustard here . The punters here would not tolerate the percentage deductions deemed OK in those jurisdictions , where the only possible winner in the operation is the provider , the punter cannot win , cannot beat the system , can only beat the other punters indirectly , so you only punt for fun , not profit . Hence the struggle in OZ re Betfair getting a foothold in OZ . The Tab people and the Aussie bookies seem to have a cosy arrangement , and the 2 racetracks I visited on Saturday afternoons in Queensland and Western Australia are more akin to open air bookies with races nationwide every few minutes . Turnover is the only God . But they dont compete with one another from what I saw , they co-exist . Hong Kong is a total monopoly , the Jockey Club there have an influence way beyond what a mere leisure betting system should be entitled to , and they bet on a lot more than horses , with shops everywhere , packed , particularly at week ends with world wide sport happening . |
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I was talking about traditional bookmakers, but it's difficult to ever see betting taxed as much as it once was.
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Concise as ever Kelly.
There is scope for a Tote operation in Ireland to be a successful enterprise. I think that there is plenty of room for them to improve on what they offer and how they offer it, and the man who has been appointed to the role comes from the right sort of background (Microsoft) to achieve this. Your views on the TABs in Australia are odd. Do you really believe that the punter cannot win off the TABs? |
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Galwayman , the Tote cannot lose except via fixed / variable cost/ overheads deductions being left to incompetents , neither can the Tab . By definition then the punters overall using that system cannot win . The bookies can , thats what make the chase and why I seldom if ever bet SP . SP is what is left on the table when the diners have filled their plates to their satisfaction . I want first cut ( doesn't everyone ) .
I repeat our Tote operation is a single product operation , spent 2 days examining it myself way back courtesy of your then Minister of Finance , no mysteries except why the Tote Investors were allowed to exclude their input until the very last moment ( or at all ) as they had the capacity to change the odds substantially . Things may have changed a bit since then , although I doubt it , crap work practices and ridiculous arrangements re overtime / travel etc , unsustainable in a modern concept . Houdini act to combat current market situation . |
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"The bookies can lose " that is .
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A one percent tax would be a disaster for us as well as Betfair.
The old concept in racing was the punter paid the tax indeed paid for everything,this was changed by Charlie McCreavey when he switched the tax on to the bookies this has created a gambling Utopia for the good punters.Previously the tax dealt out the professional punter but now he need only record modest percentage profits and I have said many times his main problem is getting on. Ireland has a levy on the bookmakers but in Britain it is based on a gross profit tax which has had disastrous results as the BHA are almost partners in their attempts at swelling bookmakers profits. |
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The reason the bookies win overall is because they have an inbuilt percentage , oodles of markets and because in a lot of races the punter has little chance . The trick is successful betting is information ( in whatever form , lots self generated via form reading ) and picking where and when to bet . The guys who stand in a bookies all day and bet in every race always walk out with less than they came in with ( and net of what they have left in the FOBT's here or the pokies in OZ ) .
Its not rocket science to figure out where the punter has a real chance , one of the high street bookies ( at least ) puts out a "no go " list of races each day where bets have to be sanctioned before acceptance . Those are the races to bet on , because the punter has a chance . The bookies who offer you 15 pence each way a 7/1 shot are restricting you because they dont want the bet . JP's interview a while ago highlighted non closure of winning accounts by JP . But he used the information and the history to ( presumably ) refashion his book with all that entails , including hedging . Talked this over with a ( retired) bookie friend a couple of days ago , his question then was how did JP get away with ( presumably ) shifting his loss to another bookie . Dont know the answer on that one , pertinent question . All I know is that if there was a way , JP would have found it . Clever guy . |
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'All punters cannot win' is not the same thing as 'the punter cannot win'. Some punters use the TABs very successfully.
Yes, our Tote is a single 'product' operation in that they can only offer betting on horse racing at race meetings, so the thing to focus on is where they can be flexible. I am of the view that the product is not the sport, it is the bets they offer and they need to sell those to punters more effectively than has traditionally been the case. Is their technology up to scratch? Are there sufficient prompts in terms of available information etc to encourage the customer to bet? Are they offering the right bets? Could they budge on deduction levels? Is further comingling with international pools possible? |
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It might not happen in this budget but it is distinctly possible that punters will be charged a % turnover tax on any bet placed on Betfair in order to subsidise the HRI.It would be a disaster for any serious punter on here.Thet is assuming Betfair don't pull out as they have done in some other countries.Doubt they would at 1% but you never know.
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I don't think McCreevey 'switched' the tax from anyone to anyone. He simply brought it down to a percentage level where it made more sense for the bookmaker to absorb it in light of increased competition from overseas, mainly the UK at the time.
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Is that not a switch,the punter stopped paying the tax and long may it continue.
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Cant remember why , but in the late nineties I used to travel to Dundalk on Saturdays ( I was still earing a crust up to 2000 approx and it was pre betfair ) for a days betting . Looking back on that seems strange nowadays , cant remember the reason for that migration , apart from petrol being cheaper and filling up . Anyone throw any light on why that would have been ? ( and there must have been a reason but for the life of me I cant remember ) .
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UK betting tax was 9% around then?
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Cant remember specifically , Pa , but it must have been worthwhile to drive to Dundalk . When I was living in Dublin in the sixties I think the tax , paid on was 15% . I used to bet in Byrnes at the end of Mespil Road , think he only charged 12 and 1/2 percent , and he paid a third the odds a place in 6 and 7 runner races . Decent wee man .
Lost track of our UK betting percentages , and I reckon betfair have influenced things ( for the better as a punter ) . |
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had my first job as a milk boy at 14 kelly ....i delivered milk to mespil road ...its a funny old world...
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Those were interesting houses in Mespil Road workrider , I worked in Irish Life and there was a riding school out the back , Iris Kelletts I think . Shortest working week I ever had , 33 and three quarters hours a week , but we worked hard , and to me thats better than taking 40 hours to do it . Hardly time to visit the bookies at lunch time though , bit of a scramble , and not every day .
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some huge houses alright , i say you probably saw mr kavanagh writing prose on a regular basis ...we swim in the canal as kids ,
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Kelly my understanding was that in the North East in those days plenty of punters paid no tax.
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I havent a clue what is coming in tomorrows budget but PP and BF will not be going anywhere.
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