Starspangledrancid!

i was there today silvergreaser , i think they very much expected that run ...not a shilling for the lad , i think you have a point , maybe they should be asked now and again by the stewards for an explanation ...just to keep punters aware of whats going on if nothing else....thats not to much to ask now is it....

Workrider I wouldn't have touched the horse with stolen money, I'm all too familiar with how they operate, they don't just dissapoint they run like 3 mile chasers, a multiple group one winner who was placed in a group one in Australia on soft gets beat 28L's over a measly 6f, its virtually unheard of?, unless of course you're an inmate of this stinking stable who have turned it into an art form.

Untouchable and they know it, they have a free rein to do as they see fit, people are right to believe that Irish racing is rotten to its very core, all one big happy family.

i backed the winner , but i understand your point ...

SSB will never win a race again. Completely mental odds on him today 9/4 fav out of training for 2 years. Firing blanks, 7 years of age.

Deserved to lose if you backed him.

Ruby take a good look at the horses future entries, I did say I wouldn't have touched the horse with stolen money, but plenty of naive people did I suspect?.
The amount of races the horses is entered for suggests that the horse is still retains plenty of ability?. That horse was sent to the racecourse today woefully unfit, nothing new with this lot.

ENTERED RACE ENTERED FOR THE FOLLOWING RACES
 
16Aug12  7:25  (Four Day) at Leopardstown, Desmond Stakes (Group 3)   
 
18Aug12  3:05  (Early closer) at Newbury, Betfred Hungerford Stakes (Group 2)   
 
24Aug12  3:40  (Early closer) at York, Coolmore Nunthorpe Stakes (British Champions Series) (Group 1)  Bet now
16
 
25Aug12  3:20  (Early closer) at Goodwood, Betfair Celebration Mile (Group 2)   
 
26Aug12  3:50  (Early closer) at Curragh, www.**** Flying Five Stakes (Group 3)   
 
8Sep12  3:25  (Early closer) at Haydock, Betfred Sprint Cup (British Champions Series) (Group 1)   
 
9Sep12  3:15  (Early closer) at Curragh, Refuse To Bend Solonaway Stakes (Group 3)   
 
15Sep12  4:15  (Early closer) at Doncaster, Park Stakes (Group 2)   
 
15Sep12  4:25  (Early closer) at Curragh, Renaissance Stakes (Group 3)   
 
20Oct12  2:25  (Early closer) at Ascot, Qipco British Champions Sprint Stakes (Group 2)   
 
20Oct12  3:35  (Early closer) at Ascot, Queen Elizabeth II Stakes Sponsored By Qipco (British Champions Mile) (Group 1)

I think its fancyful in the extreme by Coolmore and they do love there entries but there is simply not possible that this horse will ever win a Group 1 again, and if he even wins a Group race i will be astonished. He is finished!

Maybe not but I guarantee he can run an awful lot better than he did today?, but this thread is not all about Starspangled, I gave other examples can you explain away those?

Could be dangerous to right him off,prep run today on unsuitable ground.They probably won't run him again if not right.

write ,even

Hard to explain i agree silver but the ground this year form book has gone out the window as weld proved once again at Galway.

John Oxx horse also had 3l turnaround today at 1/2 for goodness sake.

Flat in this ground is a fools game.

3L's is hardly an insurmountable turnaround Ruby, its these almost out of the world turnarounds from the Ballydoyle inmates that take some explaining, fancied horses getting beat country miles, horses beat a country last time suddenly turning into Pegasuses on speed.

He needed the run there today and he'll improve for it significantly.

They are all at it Silver.

Coolmore just have so many horses it seems bizarre.

Pedro i would forgive but the filly was bizarre performance. No surprise tho not one bit.

We all know Coolmore prep horses for group 1s and bigger targets and aren't going to be fully wound up for seasonal debuts and it is factored into market.

There are smaller operations who are a lot harder to figure out,on a side note Born to sea didn't exactly frank Irish Derby form.

Yeah what happened Born To Sea, beaten out of sight.

dj876 Joined: 01 Jul 10
Replies: 2517 12 Aug 12 19:21   

We all know Coolmore prep horses for group 1s and bigger targets and aren't going to be fully wound up for seasonal debuts and it is factored into market.


So that makes it alright for these horses to run like 3 mile chasers?, so in effect you're saying they're stopped?.

I'm sure Henry Cecil left a bit to work on for Frankels seasonal appearance?, but not so badly unfit to be beat a country mile, or in the case of Multiple group one performers like Fame and Glory and St Nic to be beaten in egg and spoon races.
Henry like Vincent O'brien only ever left a bit to work on but were always fit enough to win on their seasonal debuts, these current Ballydoyle inmates don't know whether they're coming or going.
Its like they pick and choose which one gets the black type today such is their almost total dominance.

Ruby
Maybe it was the ground or maybe they used it as a prep run for irish champion but more likely he is limited, at the start of the season there were major doubts about him staying the guineas trip being by invincible spirit,but the urban sea stamina seems to be more prevalent.

Do u think Camelot will get 14f in softish conditions in the Leger??

Absoultely no reason he wont from what I have seen.

Do u know much about the dam Ruby?Tarfah by Kingmambo,won a group 3 race in america??What trip??What is the rest of he progeny like,trip wise?Tarfah's dam's trip?

using the track as a training ground.
Disgraceful carry-on.
When they are run at the track they should be ready to do themselves justice.
If the Irish BHA or whatever they are had any b***** theyd be lashing out fines to them.

Alright Roger,The Irish Bha,Do u know what the B stands for??No longer a colony mate.

you know what I mean, Go Ireland or something is it?

The Turf club

exacly, club, being the operative word.....

ITBA and HRI are jokes.

Gale Force Ten the latest rancid exhibition from the rancid mob.

You mean the horse that returned lame today? Although I suppose you'll tell me that it's a bullsh*t excuse forwarded by the vet at the behest of the Coolmore machine.

Allducknodinner..........The chap has an agenda.......If it's not a horse running up to scratch then it's Joseph made an error but the lowest one is slating him how he raises his kids.

Well forgive me duck, I was away today on a great unwashed day trip and didn't arrive home till 8.30pm so decided to watch a few replays on Sporting Life and check the racing post comments.

Nothing on the comments about the horse been lame, and looking at the race the horse certainly didn't look like it was finishing with a sore leg, maybe it was lame but it was not evident to the naked eye.

Anyway it still doesn't excuse this mob, it happens week in week out, like Mark Johnston horses you don't know what to expect from one race to the next, sad for a once very trustworthy outfit, but that was about 7 year ago.

oh and atr for the Gale force replay.

Well the comments on various other websites mention that he was lame post race. Also if you watch the replay on atr you will see the horses head move higher into the air two and a half furlongs out and he starts rolling about under his rider which would be an indicator that all was not well with him. The fact that he is only a narrow **** of a horse that's probably sick of running on soft ground at this stage should also be taken into account

As for the Johnson horses it is well known that they are galloped to within an inch of their life. These horses only take so much of that torture before running poorly. When that happens they are given an easy few days or a week. They are mentally refreshed but don't lose any of their previous fitness and they are ready to roll again. He is the ultimate numbers trainer and if he was given only twenty horses a year he'd have to close down the yard after Goodwood because all the horses would be dead.

Andy Oliver worked for Johnson as a vet,seems to have learned plenty about the training game.
Gale Force Ten hates that ground.

Silver how did Saddlers Rock get on yesterday. A 2yr old in bottomless ground found lame after the race who was well backed all morning against a John Oxx 4yr old Cup winner on perfect ground that was pulled up.

I guess one trains in the Curragh the other doesn't. I can wait for you reasoning behind that far more rancid effort.

Ruby believe me the performance of Saddlers Rock did catch my eye, beat 27L's at 13/8 fav takes some explaining?, I notice the horse is entered for the Irish Leger, stand by for the usual dramatic transformation. Oxx is no saint either but not as bad as the Mafia.

Duck, I looked back at the Gale Force Ten race again and I did notice a slight stumble about 2 from home, but before that happened this 1/1 money fav was already hard to the pump and going nowhere.

Wildman the horse might hate the ground as do many other horses, but don't forget the horse won on soft to heavy at the Curragh, was narrow r/up at Royal Ascot to the pretty decent Reckless Abandon on good to soft, was a  respectable enough 4th in the group 2 July stakes at Newmarket on soft ground, so yesterdays ground shouldn't have inconvenienced GFT more than any of the rest of the field?.

And Gant I certainly do have an agenda and make no apolgies for it. I despise how they conduct themselves on Irish racecourses and abroad, how HRI/Turf Club are Magniers Punch and Judy puppets, what string will I pull today?, as for Aidan I genuinely think the guy is a bit of a fruit cake. I just can't fathom how this rancid mob has so many admirers and blind apologists?.

Silver he wasn't moving right for the last two furlongs. You can see it from the head-on. He could have gone lame at any stage during the race. Most horses don't show lameness until they cool down so that he was showing it during the race suggests to me it could have been a big inhibitor. While he has shown form on softer ground he hasn't exactly been progressing on it and could be getting sick of it. He also had cheekpieces on which suggests that he could be going lairy at home. Most flat horses are gutless when it comes down to it and a narrow 2yo on soft ground is the first one that will chuck in the towel especially if he's feeling something.

Sadlers Rock looked about as bombproof as you could ask for. He had everything going for him. I know it's a cliche but they aren't machines and given the number of Oxx horses that are running below par in recent weeks suggests that there could be a bug in the yard.

I suppose we can add "I Have A Dream" onto the rancid list, the ground and trip were no problem, yes the horse had an 11lb rise in the weights which might have anchored him somewhat?, but this 9/2 3rd fav was barely able to raise a gallop to beat only the 2 rank outsiders home.

While he won on soft would it be at all possible he wouldn,t handle heavy,his last race he beat Shelford who was well beaten nto,as you say 11lb and better class not the greatest surprise he was beaten.
He also had two earlier winners which you didn,t deem worthy of a comment but of course you did the loser.

pa lapsy I like to highlight the many examples of fancied horses from this stable who run deplorably, they don't just get beaten they get absolutely stuffed, running like 3 mile chasers, and often they make out of this world improvement, and nobody ever dares ask any questions of this stinking stable.

Pa the ground at Bellwestown was officially given as heavy.

Sweet lighting,Rock Critic and Daigreen other fancied horses that were well beat tonight,it happens. The i have a dream form was imo weak with Shelfords effort last time and for that reason the word rancid isn,t right in this case.
I know what you are saying in regards improvement etc Silvergreaser,but rather than knocking it wouldn,t it be more to your advantage to try and idenify it beforehand and use it.

Rock Critic and Daigreen might have been slightly disappointing on the face of it but they were not beaten very far, some of these disappointing O'Brien horses would be hard to track with satellite.

Oh I've often caught a few of his miraculous improvers, but it can be hard when they might have 2 or 3 potential miraculous improvers in the one race, doesn't make it right though.

When Charles Byrnes and Tony Martin do it there is usually a reaction on the forum, yet when the untouchables do it on almost a daily basis there is never as much a whimper, apart from me of course, the authorities? well lets just say they only exist in name only.

Jeez that huge 1Lb drop in the weights sure did transform "I have a dream" in the space of just 10 short days?

Anyone that backed him in Killarney must be a bit sick with that.Only thing i can say with that is totally different ground yesterday.On the basis of studying form not something i like to see a horse running a shocker and then winning next time,the maxim they are not machines might apply here.
In essence you are right Silvergreaser,the Killarney run was so bad he wasn,t entitled to win yesterday.

Yes the ground was different but as we know the horse handled yielding, heavy and good, so the ground can't be put forward as a plausible excuse, the trip should not be put forward as an excuse either, in fact you might argue the heavy ground should've brought his staying power into play?, instead the horse weakened badly.

And its safe to argue that the race at Leopardstown was a much more competitive affair than the Killarney race yet there are many still willing to dig in desperation to excuse yet another appalling run and the sudden miraculous powers of recovery from a Ballydoyle inmate.

Believe me there'll be plenty more examples to put up on this thread before the season ends pa lapsy.

They aint machines........Someone like you with limited understanding of the racehorse should organise a trip to a racing yard.........you would be surprised at what you might learn.

Even with my limited understanding of horses even a rocking horse can figure out that these horses are been campaigned deliberately, how many times do you want to say they ain't machines gant?.

I'd love to visit that ploughed potato field they call Ballydoyle where Aidan trains his horses.

If as you say he has been campaigned deliberately to be beaten 33 lengths and then win a valuable handicap next time out I think it totally belittles your argument that AOB is not a great trainer.If you ask me only a true genius could deliberately attempt to do that ...and succeed!

i do believe at times the race course is being used as a training ground but in this case i feel the horse is probably just showing his age and prob doesnt wanna be there at this stage. possible injury even. he was there to win yest (obv).

oh stop oh stop I'm effing tearing my hair out, how in the name of some super human being can you excuse the constant kick in the bollix this stable affords all the guys in the betting shop or any punter for that matter?, but its ok guys they tell me he's a god like figure, more like a god like **** who has now been afforded Barney Curley like status in my eyes at the very least, but the world has always been full of apoligists, ask Lowry down in North Tipp?, sometimes you despair!.

ahem!

What was that turnaround by Starspangledbanner with Fire Lily, something in the region of 26L's, remarkable don't you think for a sprinter?.

Obvious conclusion, this horse was sent to the racecourse woefully unfit with no intention whatsoever of doing itself justice, while he might not be as good as he was its quite clear he still retains plenty of abilty.

The untouchables strike once again!.

When they're confronted with the truth allduck becomes almost invisable?

Silver. Your problems with Ballydoyle probably need a Shrink. This is the nature of the game . The racecourse is used as a training ground by every trainer in the country at one time or another.

Put it this way santry I can't stand the hypocrisy, he wins a group one race and the media are like flies to sh1te, he sends horses to the racecourse conveyor belt like, ie Starspangledbanner woefully unfit and its my fault for highlighting this issue?, and the media lips remain as ever super glued.

Silvergreaser.....So your gripe is really with the media.
I'm sure most of us in the real world realise AOB is earning a crust and providing for his family.........If the media paint him as a god like figure and you want to keep reminding us on an hourly basis....so be it .........the chap must be doing something right.

Our media do go overboard with the above average achievers.

you have a point there silvergreaser , can you imagine the journalist , aiden , just a quick word about that last run ...can we take it he was a little unfit then.....

workrider the bookies priced the horse up at 5/2, so how many naive punters put their hard earned on that horse that day?, blissfully unaware that the horse would have lost a race against a 3 legged tortoise so unfit was he.

They can give me all the ground excuses that they want, this is a sprinter and turnarounds of 26L's is virtually unheard of, unless of course you come from this rancid stable.

i'd agree re horse running unfit , and yes it can leave a sour taste ...but my own opinion on it is , the man works for that outfit and simply does what he told ...i like aiden as a person , he'd often say hello to me at the races if i'm in company with someone he knows ...no matter what your personal opinion of him is , you simply cant get away from the fact that he's a world class trainer , and has been for many a year now....

of course the guy can train workrider I never denied that fact, but can any horse trainer really be called world class when the abilty of the horse usually decides your faith?

I know plenty of trainers who would not have had half the success AOB has had with the same stock........They probably would not have lasted pissing time at Ballydoyle.........Coolmore/Ballydoyle know a good thing when they have it.

You could not have picked a worse example than Starspangledbanner,you are from the country so surely you know the difficulty of bringing any animal back from stud duties let alone a horse,in fact it is some feat of training to bring this beast back and judging by his Curragh run he will be winning shortly.
Your idea that there is no skill in training is belied by every horse that gets transferred to Willie Mullins and by the recent exploits of Royal Diamond.

Place Vendome 5/2 beat well over fifty lengths, Triumphant 7/1 (op 5/1) also beaten well over fifty lengths today at Listowel, move on lads nothing to see here, this hasn't happened before now has it?.

Back to Ballydoyle non tries.Did anyone else think the ride on Fortify in the 2yo maiden this week was as disgraceful as any all year? This was Hall Of Mirrors race, Seamie strangled it the whole way up the straight I thought. I was surprised not to see any mention on any of the forums. I laid it pre race around 11 or 12 mark and thought I got out of jail. These second strings in maidens have been saf out to lay all year, it's all about Joseph. I honestly think Fortify could have won and without remotely being given a hard ride.

Safe out to lay

Shotgun willy, take a look at the stats for O'Briens other stable jockeys for recent seasons,

JA Heffernan 2009 rides 482 wins 23
2010 456-35
2011 419-40
2012 with around 6 weeks of the season to go 263-14

C O'Donoghue 2009 372-34
2010 334-30
2011 326-29
2012 197-16

The damning statistic is 2012, both riders have had nowhere near as many rides as they normally would have had by this late time in the season, obvious that they're picking up an awful lot less spares for O'Brien.
The long term plan of grooming Boy Wonder for the jockeys championship one of the main reasons but also the cynical raising of the weights for the start of this flat season was another major contributory factor.

Nothing new with O'Brien Ist, 2nd and 3rd strings getting an easy or sent to the racecourse woefully unfit, but the difference this year is that both Heffernan and O'Donoghue often won on the supposed lesser fancied ones, this year its happened very few times as Daddy has both Heffernan and O'Donoghue just setting them up for Boy Wonder when he decides they're off of course.
Having said all that Boy Wonder has ridden his fair share of 3 mile chasers himself this season, before the inevitable remarkable transformation usually in the not so distant future.

Agree with you Shotgun,hall of mirrors looked the likely winner up until inside the last and no way was fortify going to pass him.

Silver is it illegal to send a horse to a race unfit?
i didn't think it was tbh,Just thought not running a horse on it's merits (ie restraining it) was the illegal part.
if i am correct in my assessment,Then he's doing nothing wrong in the eyes of the authorities

i think this has been done forever and a day...how many times have you heard a trainer say ..he'll come on for the run....

We know its almost an excepted fact, but lets be honest the inconsistent performances from many of these Ballydoyle borders on the effing ridiculous.
No.2 below would safely sum up a lot of these O'Brien animals, no way on earth are these horses been sent to the racecourse anywhere near race fit condition?.

212. (a) Every horse which runs in a race shall be run on its merits.

(i) The rider of every horse shall take all reasonable and
permissible measures throughout the race to ensure that
his horse is given a full opportunity to win or of obtaining
the best possible place.

(ii) Horses shall not be run in races where they are in a
condition which would preclude their chances of winning
nor shall they be run for the purpose of giving them a
school.

(iii) The racecourse must not be used as a training ground and
all horses, including horses having their first run, must be
ridden to attain the best possible place and must not be
deliberately eased before passing the winning post without
good reason.

Thanks pa.Thats exactly the way I read it, no way was Fortify allowed to pass Hall, fortunately Welds consented to run on and win, I thought it was blatant restraining. No doubt Fortify will rock up for a maiden soon aaa short price fav and there'll be another eye catcher finishing well

You backing this beast silvergreaser?

No, backed the **** horse, **** horses are not to be sniffed at db.

is **** a swear word?

how about japanese then?