Irish flat trainers to follow

The "silver spoon" trainer might be Charles O Brien, but I couldn't see RA following this stable.
I havn't been at the races often enough in recent times to spot the man with the "pipe"
"arrogance" = G Lyons

Ger Lyons has to be in there, although he has quite a few horses these times. The Marnane team is pretty well connected and I often think that if Jessica Harrington runs one in a maidan at one of the big tracks, then the horse can be worth following. I was very disapointed with Princess Sinead the other day though.

Some suggestions..
1. Aidan O'Brien - trains the odd winner, under-rated, chain smoker?
2. Jim Gorman - trains the very odd winner
3. Des McDonogh - trained a winner last night
4. John Murphy - plans with military precision
5. Michael Grassick - optimistic of having a reasonable season according to a recent interview
These 5 are all strong on campaigns and strategies...

(The small/medium ones who actually know what they are doing are David Marnane, Bill Farrell, Tracey Collins, Jessie Harrington, Paul Deegan and perhaps Willie McCreery, Pat Flynn and Michael Halford).

Pat Flynn is a great shout actually

A.Oliver

K.Condon

R.Roberts

These three are on my radar at the moment.

I've heard Condon favours a scientific approach, I think he takes temperatures and a few other bits and pieces. Oliver is a vet isn't he and he has worked for Mark Johnston so I'd guess he probably incorporates a few of his methods. He's around a while now, thought he's maybe get up the ladder a little easier. Condon had a Group 3 winner a few years ago as well, just shows how hard it is to kick on in Ireland, really is very very competitive. I wonder if some of the guys above would set up elsewhere if they had their time again.

a slight digresion but who are the best claiming jockeys around at the moment, with JOB curtis and carroll all pro's now, who are the new faces with 7lb claims, im yet to identify anyone as of yet.

Spent a few hours looking at general strike-rates last night (leading Irish trainers outside the top four) and having second thoughts about my proposed approach. Losing strike-rates of, at best 87%, suggest I will be following horses that cumulatively, over three stables, will return too many losers in a year and likely to cause loss of interest quickly in a barren spell.

What always appealed to me about winning maiden pointers is that, by and large, you were starting with a loaded gun and knew each horse had some ability: the exact extent to be determined over a period of time.

I once followed the leading sales buys (top twenty lots at Tatts, Fairyhouse, Goffs, Donny, the Breeze-Ups, US imports etc) but this didn't prove to be too successful as an over-generous John Ferguson tended to skew the market. Even the breeze-ups were disappointing given that purchasers had seen the horses gallop beforehand. There will always be exceptions to rules and Pat Flynn (not sure what tobacco he stuffs in his pipe by the hearth) paying 100k for a Goresbridge breezer a  few years back was exceptional.

So I am distilling my thoughts down to:
* follow three stables that generally have well-bred sorts and good patronage
* follow two-year-olds only for 2012 as it will then be easier to follow these horses as they mature (the thought of "catching up" on a Ger Lyons (he of the humble disposition) three or four year old with ten runs under the belt doesn't appeal). For subsequent seasons you then have a full pen-picture of horse's form
* Add horses-to-follow as they arise from all sources. You will see that this is a critical aspect of Donn McClean's methodology. At one stage he was adding almost 100 horses per month to his notes but he now seems to be more selective in his approach with fewer added each month, presumably with more stringent qualifying criteria.

I hope to start my "flat bulletin" shortly.

good luck..looking forward to it..

Poor old Ger Lyons gets a lot of stick for been arrogant, at least Ger never went down to the start at the Curragh and Newmarket to tell the vastly experienced stall handlers how to do their job and god forbid if Ger had 6 horses running in a group one race he'd insist on saddling the whole 6 horses himself because only he ever learned to put a saddle on a horse?.

Say what you want about Ger he's one of the most straightforward of trainers unlike the dark shaded softly spoken one and he doesn't suffer from serious mental issues either.

And as for silver spoons?, didn't Weld and Oxx inherit Daddys legacy?, Aiden Vincents superb training establishment, no shortage of silver spoons to go around in Irish racing, plenty more waiting in line to inherit Daddys legacy.

Curiously my "silver spoon" nominee has yet to be mentioned even if he had to work hard for the reward!

Silver: if I nominate GML it's because I admire his ability and his success from modest roots -he's an x-jock and, believe or not, an x-tipster! - but has punched above his weight.

If you follow his tweets and blog he now rates the owner as king and regards punters as a necessary evil-obviously it's the largesse of governments that funds racing and not the (taxed) punter. His dismissive retorts to queries as to how his horses might fare could be a good deal less arrogant.

This thread will try to find the trainers that won't qualify for the champions league but will produce the best from what they've got. I suspect the silver spoon dates back to senator Parkinson's and his ilk but it was, is and always will be a playground for playboys.

He certainly has a huge chip on his shoulder and I think RA has hit the nail on the head there with his assessment of the concerns and motivations of GL.

RA I think we're all aware that punters are a necessary evil, Lyons is hardly out on limb there?.

Interesting tweet,

gerlyonsracing: @IrishNatStud @three_chimneys No, baby Jesus is Joseph O Brien.... Son of God:) #FACT

Silvergreaser whats wrong with bequeathing racing stables to your son,both Dermot Weld and John Oxx proved far more successful than their fathers.Aiden O`Brien didn`t inherit Ballydoyle as he doesn`t own it and certainly wasn`t born with a silver spoon,got there through hard work and talent.

Nothing wildman just a generalisation, hand me downs are all over Irish racing and knowing the right people can give you a good start in life.

John Oxx and Dermot Weld are more successful than their paternal influence because of a variety of reasons.

The economic upturn (for some) and Irelands resurrection from been the poorman of European racing to probably the most powerful?, helped in no uncertain terms by the stallion exemption and the dominant influence of Sadlers Wells and his offspring.

Dermot Jr had the fairly powerful backing of the Moyglare stud and Smurfit to keep him ticking over nicely.

The decision of the Aga Khan to pull out of British racing was just the fillip John Jr was waiting for, before then the Aga sent him the odd decent one but hardly world beaters, most were just a cut above mediocre, in fact of all John Oxx jr's group one winners before Sinndar arrived on the scene most were for less than high profile owners.

It shouldn't be forgotten in the 10 years between 1985 and 1994 inclusive, there were just two Irish trained winners of both the Irish 2000 Guineas and Irish 1000 Guineas, one Irish trained winner of the Irish Derby, not even one Irish trained horse won the Irish Oaks. And if it hadn’t been for John Oxx and Welds Vintage Crop, the foreigners would have dominated the Irish St Leger as well.

A pure sign of then dominant influence of the Arab owners, even Ballydoyle and Vincent were unable to stem the tide.

Better trainers than their fathers wildman or Just that lttle bit more fortunate?.

the 10 years between 1985 and 1994 inclusive, there were just two Irish trained winners of both the Irish 2000 Guineas and Irish 1000 Guineas, one Irish trained winner of the Irish Derby, not even one Irish trained horse won the Irish Oaks. And if it hadn’t been for John Oxx and Welds Vintage Crop, the foreigners would have dominated the Irish St Leger as well.

The above is not entirely accurate in fact it was a mile out in one particular case, it was actually information taken from a Don McClean interview with John Oxx, obviously Don didn't do his research properly?.

There was 2 Irish Derby winners Law Socety and St Jovite, he was correct with the Oaks and 1000 guineas, but there was actually 3 winners of the 2000 guineas, Triptych was then trained by David O'Brien.
The Irish Leger had produced (7) yes seven Irish trained winners, granted it had already lost its classic status by then.
I suggest you do a little more research Don before putting pen to paper, and I'm worse for trusting a racing journalists knowledge of the subject they're paid good money to report on?.

Thought I'd cover my ass before some forumite sharpened the knives, nothing they like better than to catch out a fellow forumite.