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It's time to devote a thread to assist the stewards of the Irish Turf Club. This thread will be used to help the Irish Turf Club stewards when they might miss something obvious and/or controversial.Today, to most independent observers, it looked like St. Nicholas Abbey let his stable mate win the race. The trainer was at pains to say afterwards he wasn´t going to have a hard race in this ground although first time out on 16/8/09, on similar ground, he was an impressive winner of his maiden. Next time out he won a Group 2 event. In the interest of honesty and integrety the stewards need to take a long hard look at what is going on.
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Would you not put it down to what the majority believe it was just a brutal ride. The horse was 66/1 you'd think if they would let it win it would be for the most obvious reason.
No one can read a jockey's mind, so his motivation is beside the point. The fact is, the guy got an odds-on shot beat in the feature race of the day. If that doesn't merit disciplnary action, nothing does.
As an aside, Gary OBrien was very forthright in his comments on ATR after the race. At least someone in the business understands what this stuff looks like to the public.
As an aside, Gary OBrien was very forthright in his comments on ATR after the race. At least someone in the business understands what this stuff looks like to the public.
Wasn't the 9L group one 1000 guineas winner beaten 13+L on its debut this season, funny camelot didn't seem to need the run?
U must have made a fortune this weekend laying St.Nick and Maybe Silver G
Wait till Fame and Glory comes out for his prep run for Ascot gold cup-u can fill yer boots
Wait till Fame and Glory comes out for his prep run for Ascot gold cup-u can fill yer boots
It looks like the Yorkshire cup might be this years deceptive race?, the vintage crop stakes at navan the usual training race has come and gone, you know the race Yeats got beat a national hunt distance before been backed off the boards for his 4th gold cup victory?, and multiple group one winner Fame and Glory had to be hard ridden to beat a bunch of trees, gasping it was so unfit, a race so bad even at 80% fitness should never have had to come off the bridle?.
Will he not run in Savill beg at Leopardstown at end of month?
not entered dj, holds an entry in the yorkshire cup and the coronation at Epsom before Ascot.
ok ta,a pity wouldn't have minded laying him at odds on over 14f on seasonal debut.
I see Jp and John Magnier's wealth valuation in yesterdays Sunday times have decreased substancially
JP-479MILL,J.M-507MILL,but their PURPLE buddy seems to have sailed thru the recession and is still valued at nearly 1.4 billion.
I see Jp and John Magnier's wealth valuation in yesterdays Sunday times have decreased substancially
JP-479MILL,J.M-507MILL,but their PURPLE buddy seems to have sailed thru the recession and is still valued at nearly 1.4 billion.
take it from me that the stewards dont miss a trick, but their lack of punishment, and final chances are a joke tbf.
Had to use careful coded language but in essence said that young Joe had ridden an injudicious race.
Yes , it clearly looked like jockey error but on reading what was said to the stewards though I have to say that maybe Joe didn't do so bad.
He would have known how the horse was moving on the ground and tried to win without leaving the horse's season there on the Curragh mud all just for a Gr.3.
Maybe the pacemakers went too fast ...running as a relay -when one weakened the other took over and just held on.
Not sure why they thought they needed two pacemakers.
Yes , it clearly looked like jockey error but on reading what was said to the stewards though I have to say that maybe Joe didn't do so bad.
He would have known how the horse was moving on the ground and tried to win without leaving the horse's season there on the Curragh mud all just for a Gr.3.
Maybe the pacemakers went too fast ...running as a relay -when one weakened the other took over and just held on.
Not sure why they thought they needed two pacemakers.
Father of Science trained by you know who (who else?) beaten 11+L on its seasonal debut at Navan, they couldn't give the horse away that day, 10 days later travels to Chester and bolts up not unbacked either.
i said that on the other thread silver,The betting on his debut was rancid,But i did say if you ignore that he actually ran a very pleasing race.
It was an ok run in my eyes snaff it wasn't exactly brim full of promise but in the space of a few short days the transformation was nothing if not miraculous.
But we all know the guy has super human powers now don't we?.
But we all know the guy has super human powers now don't we?.
i tend to disagree there silver,well i wouldn't say brim full of promise,but ye could see he had ability and had no interest winning on debut,i see Joseph is banned for irish Guineas day,is that correct?
Yeh got 4 days at Chester today, I'm sure Ryan, Seamus and Conor will be able deputies.
Stand by for a remarkable transformation from Power and Nephrite over the guineas w/end?, and I might have a few quid on Twirl to upset one of its more fancied stablemates in the 1000 guineas.
Stand by for a remarkable transformation from Power and Nephrite over the guineas w/end?, and I might have a few quid on Twirl to upset one of its more fancied stablemates in the 1000 guineas.
You mean like a Roderic o connor style transformation,
i backed him in the english version last year,never sighted against Frankel,Dubawi Gold beat him streets,Completely turned that form on its head in the irish version.
i backed him in the english version last year,never sighted against Frankel,Dubawi Gold beat him streets,Completely turned that form on its head in the irish version.
yes but cant they put off the ban because there is group 1 racing over the weekend if they appeal the decision
and don't forget Misty For Me snaff who finished 18L behind stablemate Together narrow r/up to Blue Bunting in the English guineas, Misty makes miraculous transformation to defeat Together in the Irish equivalent.
Huddy I'm not sure but I think you can only defer if you get 3 days or less?, but Daddy can always try the high court injunction.
Huddy I'm not sure but I think you can only defer if you get 3 days or less?, but Daddy can always try the high court injunction.
Jockeys banned for four days or less will be able to defer the ban if it would mean them missing out on a Group or Grade One race, which was not allowed under the original rules.
It seems Joseph will be ok to ride after all!.
It seems Joseph will be ok to ride after all!.
Nephrite won`t stay and probably hasn`t trained on,Power might not stay either.
lets wait and see wildman, you could be right yet you might be spectaculary wrong?, some of these Coolmore horses have a habit of not just making normal improvement but astonishing improvement in the space of a few short weeks.
Agree with that,Homecoming Queen beat all for me and do any of ye remember Peeping Fawn.
Peeping Fawn came into her own in the high summer after winning her maiden on her third start (two good runs before that) and being placed in the two Fillies classics. She gradually improved from run to run throughout the season (her only season).
What Homecoming Queen did far exceeds any improvement i've ever seen from a Flat horse over the winter.
What Homecoming Queen did far exceeds any improvement i've ever seen from a Flat horse over the winter.
some might disagree allduck:
Homecoming hindsight 20:20
May 8th, 2012 by Donn McClean
If you were one of those souls who backed Aidan O’Brien at 7/2 or 4/1 to train the winner of the Qipco 2000 and the winner of the Qipco 1000 Guineas over the weekend, you never thought you would be cheering Homecoming Queen home in the fillies’ race, did you?
You probably thought that you were having a double Camelot and Maybe (two 6/4 shots approximately, that’s 21/4 the double, five and a quarter to one) with Power thrown in as a bonus. You probably never thought that Homecoming Queen could win the 1000 Guineas.
Not many did, admittedly, except for Joseph O’Brien, who apparently said beforehand that the other Ballydoyle filly was the main danger to Maybe. Then you look for the case, looking through those dastardly 20-20 hindsight rose-tinted glasses, and there it is.
For starters, Homecoming Queen is a three-parts sister to Dylan Thomas, and Dylan Thomas won six Group 1 races, including two Irish Champion Stakes, an Irish Derby, a King George and an Arc.
She was just a tad more exposed than your typical Guineas winner, admittedly, having run 11 times as a juvenile and twice as a three-year-old before Sunday, more often than any other filly in Sunday’s race by miles (half the field had raced just three times or less). However, her record before Sunday on ground that was softer than yielding was 121, two wins and a second, the 2 recorded in the Group 3 CL Weld Park Stakes at The Curragh last September, when she was the lesser-fancied of two Aidan O’Brien-trained fillies in the race (as she was on Sunday) and when she went down by just a neck to Coral Wave.
She was also the second string of an Aidan O’Brien quartet when she won the Group 3 1000 Guineas Trial at Leopardstown last month, battling on really well to get the better of the Michael Tabor-owned, David Wachman-trained Fire Lily. That was her most recent run, her second run of the season, so you knew that she was fit, a quality that was going to be worth a multiple of itself on Sunday’s ground when half the field were making their seasonal debuts.
If you wanted, you could have made a case for her on collateral lines of form: she beat Fire Lily by a neck in the 1000 Guineas Trial, and Maybe only beat Fire Lily by one and three-quarter lengths in the Moyglare Stud Stakes last September so, in theory, Homecoming Queen had just a length and a half to find with her stable companion, and Maybe was the 6/4 favourite while she was a 25/1 shot. Comparing collateral lines of form can be a tricky business, especially when said lines of form straddle seasons, but they still give an indication as to relative merits.
Finally, you knew that Homecoming Queen was probably going to be allowed to jump and run, set a true pace that would suit her and that would be no harm for her stable companion Maybe. Homecoming Queen’s record going into yesterday’s race, when she led from early, was 12191. Now it’s 121911.
It might be a mistake to underestimate this performance, because it wasn’t as if she stole the race, it wasn’t as though Ryan Moore caught his colleagues napping. They were right up behind her at the three-furlong pole but, when Moore gave her a squeeze, she just came clear. She won by nine lengths, and she clocked a time that was two seconds faster than the time that Camelot clocked in the 2000 Guineas the previous day.
Okay, so she had fitness on her side and she had conditions in her favour, but, while we don’t know if she will be able to reproduce this level of performance on better ground, we don’t know that she won’t. It was good ground when she won her Guineas trial at Leopardstown.
You have to conclude that she is a top class filly in these conditions, and it may be that the lead is more important to her than easy ground. She should get further than a mile on breeding and, allowed her head in front in the Coronation Stakes or in the Irish Guineas or wherever she goes next, she may prove difficult to pass again.
Easy in hindsight, of course.
Homecoming hindsight 20:20
May 8th, 2012 by Donn McClean
If you were one of those souls who backed Aidan O’Brien at 7/2 or 4/1 to train the winner of the Qipco 2000 and the winner of the Qipco 1000 Guineas over the weekend, you never thought you would be cheering Homecoming Queen home in the fillies’ race, did you?
You probably thought that you were having a double Camelot and Maybe (two 6/4 shots approximately, that’s 21/4 the double, five and a quarter to one) with Power thrown in as a bonus. You probably never thought that Homecoming Queen could win the 1000 Guineas.
Not many did, admittedly, except for Joseph O’Brien, who apparently said beforehand that the other Ballydoyle filly was the main danger to Maybe. Then you look for the case, looking through those dastardly 20-20 hindsight rose-tinted glasses, and there it is.
For starters, Homecoming Queen is a three-parts sister to Dylan Thomas, and Dylan Thomas won six Group 1 races, including two Irish Champion Stakes, an Irish Derby, a King George and an Arc.
She was just a tad more exposed than your typical Guineas winner, admittedly, having run 11 times as a juvenile and twice as a three-year-old before Sunday, more often than any other filly in Sunday’s race by miles (half the field had raced just three times or less). However, her record before Sunday on ground that was softer than yielding was 121, two wins and a second, the 2 recorded in the Group 3 CL Weld Park Stakes at The Curragh last September, when she was the lesser-fancied of two Aidan O’Brien-trained fillies in the race (as she was on Sunday) and when she went down by just a neck to Coral Wave.
She was also the second string of an Aidan O’Brien quartet when she won the Group 3 1000 Guineas Trial at Leopardstown last month, battling on really well to get the better of the Michael Tabor-owned, David Wachman-trained Fire Lily. That was her most recent run, her second run of the season, so you knew that she was fit, a quality that was going to be worth a multiple of itself on Sunday’s ground when half the field were making their seasonal debuts.
If you wanted, you could have made a case for her on collateral lines of form: she beat Fire Lily by a neck in the 1000 Guineas Trial, and Maybe only beat Fire Lily by one and three-quarter lengths in the Moyglare Stud Stakes last September so, in theory, Homecoming Queen had just a length and a half to find with her stable companion, and Maybe was the 6/4 favourite while she was a 25/1 shot. Comparing collateral lines of form can be a tricky business, especially when said lines of form straddle seasons, but they still give an indication as to relative merits.
Finally, you knew that Homecoming Queen was probably going to be allowed to jump and run, set a true pace that would suit her and that would be no harm for her stable companion Maybe. Homecoming Queen’s record going into yesterday’s race, when she led from early, was 12191. Now it’s 121911.
It might be a mistake to underestimate this performance, because it wasn’t as if she stole the race, it wasn’t as though Ryan Moore caught his colleagues napping. They were right up behind her at the three-furlong pole but, when Moore gave her a squeeze, she just came clear. She won by nine lengths, and she clocked a time that was two seconds faster than the time that Camelot clocked in the 2000 Guineas the previous day.
Okay, so she had fitness on her side and she had conditions in her favour, but, while we don’t know if she will be able to reproduce this level of performance on better ground, we don’t know that she won’t. It was good ground when she won her Guineas trial at Leopardstown.
You have to conclude that she is a top class filly in these conditions, and it may be that the lead is more important to her than easy ground. She should get further than a mile on breeding and, allowed her head in front in the Coronation Stakes or in the Irish Guineas or wherever she goes next, she may prove difficult to pass again.
Easy in hindsight, of course.
I think Donn summed his argument with the five words at the end of.
You can generally make a case for any horse that wins any race with the benefit of hindsight (easy lead, fitter than rivals, pedigree). In hindsight wasn't Neptune Collognes a good thing in the National off his rating? Pity they aren't much good to you before the race. She was obviously a filly with a fair degree of ability from last year and her sires progeny do progress. Even accounting for that and the Fire Lily run it still left her a mountain to climb to put in the performance that she did in my eyes at least anyway.
They really do make you wonder sometimes them horses.
You can generally make a case for any horse that wins any race with the benefit of hindsight (easy lead, fitter than rivals, pedigree). In hindsight wasn't Neptune Collognes a good thing in the National off his rating? Pity they aren't much good to you before the race. She was obviously a filly with a fair degree of ability from last year and her sires progeny do progress. Even accounting for that and the Fire Lily run it still left her a mountain to climb to put in the performance that she did in my eyes at least anyway.
They really do make you wonder sometimes them horses.
Mc Clean is just another arselicker and for reasons of self preservation he will never criticise the Coolmore mob. I would love to see him pen a critique on the Windsor Palace run but we all know that will never happen.
I thought Blake, Keenan and Sweetman all wrote decent pieces on the "incident" (as Jonathon Mullin bravely put it).
Others, as we know, run with the hare and hunt with the hounds.
Others, as we know, run with the hare and hunt with the hounds.
Sweetman's take on things:
In the real world in which the trainer operates, with a responsibility to the owners who want to see a colt advertise himself as a future stallion in the Group 1 arena, that is par for the course. Every horse man understands this.
The problem is there is an increasing disconnect between the two other worlds that are crucial to racing.
There is the ideal world, as promulgated by the authorities,in which horses are supposed to turn up ready for the job whether it is a humble seller or the Derby, then there is the idealised world of the punter in which horses are supposed to produce performances that withstand logical and intelligent analysis.
A race in which a 124-rated Breeders'Cup winner fails to concede 5lb to a 99-rated rival whose only previous win was gained in an all-weather maiden four and a half years ago, throws up more questions than can be glibly answered.
In the real world in which the trainer operates, with a responsibility to the owners who want to see a colt advertise himself as a future stallion in the Group 1 arena, that is par for the course. Every horse man understands this.
The problem is there is an increasing disconnect between the two other worlds that are crucial to racing.
There is the ideal world, as promulgated by the authorities,in which horses are supposed to turn up ready for the job whether it is a humble seller or the Derby, then there is the idealised world of the punter in which horses are supposed to produce performances that withstand logical and intelligent analysis.
A race in which a 124-rated Breeders'Cup winner fails to concede 5lb to a 99-rated rival whose only previous win was gained in an all-weather maiden four and a half years ago, throws up more questions than can be glibly answered.
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