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Who will be the first to say that Kauto Star is the greatest steeplechaser of all time?
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Replies: 26
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Im discussing it with my father now and he has seen both, he thinks kauto is a tiny bit behind arkle. he is not a punter though.
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I bought the Legends of horse racing dvd last week in tesco for a tenner and id say Arkle if that counts
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Hopefully one of those press lads will ring Jim Dreaper and ask him. I'd love to know what he thinks. Willie Mullins won't know until later in the week.
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Kauto Star shouldn't be even mentioned in the same breath as Arkle. To put things in perspective, Kauto Star couldn't win a handicap even when carrying 10.9 lbs. That says it all.
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There are people out there who believe that no horse will ever be as good as Arkle. Ever. For some peculiar reason, they think that equine evolution gave rise to Arkle who set a ceiling on what the racehorse could achieve, and no matter what no horse will ever be as good again. This makes no sense to me.
In reply to The Gotchee, I would like to put Arkle's miserable record in perspective. He retired 9 years old. Look at what Kauto Star did today aged 11. That's perspective for you Gotchee !!! |
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By the way, you would thing when replying to this thread, you would have picked a more recent piece of form (than the 2005 Haldon Gold Cup) with which to assess Kauto Star. He's hardly won much since.
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Viva Pataca, when he starts to give 3 stone to grade 1 performers, I will then begin to take him seriously.
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^ He's hardly going to start doing that now. I wonder will they consider retiring him after today? Long Run might be a different horse with Barry Geraghty on board and Cheltenham is so different to Kempton. Kauto has nothing left to prove.
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Gotchee, you fail to understand that running in Whitbreds and Irish Nationals and Hennessys was the fashionable thing to do in the sixties.
Nowadays, the King George, the Betfair Chase and the Punchestown Gold Cup are where it's at. You oldies appear to have trouble understanding this. Why would Kauto Star run in handicaps? And why does he have to give Grade One performances three stones when he's able to beat them off level weights by the equivalent of three stone in lengths? |
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Viva Pataca, It is impossible to defeat an ignorant man in an arguement.
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I don't know the anwser to the question but I'd like to come at it at another angle anyway.
When Luca Cumani was quizzed as to whether STS was the best there ever was, he said he reckoned he probably was. His reasoning was that back in the days of Brigadier Gerrard, Nijinsky et cetera, there were X number of horses in training, now fastforward to 2009 there are say 4X the number of horses in training. Add to that the developments in breeding and the minuses of overproduction, then allow for freaks with no breeding like Canford Cliffs and Cumani came to the conclusion that the best of 4X must be better than the best of X. I have not the foggiest whether Kauto or Arkle where equally met or not, but kauto is certainly a great to our generation, a Grade 1 horse since he was 3, we very well might never see that again. |
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I would be one of the ones that would be skeptical of Arkle's ratings. He achieved what he achieved and it makes for remarkable reading, but the 60's was a different era to now. The standards of training were much lower bar a select few trainers that were ahead of their time and the number of horses around the place was much lower. What I'm saying is, it was easier to dominate in those days and perhaps Arkle came around in an era of "top class chasers" that were quite a bit below the usual standard? Just a theory. Kauto Star is the best I've seen and I struggle to see how any horse that ever existed could give him a couple of stone and a beating.
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That is probably close to my oppinion paddy, I'd have Arkle ahead, not that I'm really qualified to comment, though not by as far
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Truest word you've spoken on this thread, Gotchee.
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It is always hard to assess the relative merits of different generations but anyone claiming Kauto Star as the best steeplechaser of all time might take into account the four occasions he raced against his stablemate Denman.
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But don't we by and large judge horses on their best performances so if someone wants to cite Arkle's 210, isn't Kauto best judged on that (dodgy) 190 in the King George of 09
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Everyone is different, but I wouldn't take a raw rating as the best indicator of greatness. Longevity, versatility and overcoming adversity have to be taken into account. Kauto has been racing over jumps since the spring of his three-year-old year, he has been a champion from 2m to 3m 2f and had to bounce back from injury after he was remounted at Exeter and again after bursting a blood vessel at Kempton last year. He is a remarkable horse.
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I agree Paddy, though the biggest indicator of greatness in any sport is legacy. Which is why - for now - we must concede that Arkle probably is greater. However, that dosen't mean we can't argue that Kauto Star is better. It's also futile comparing Kauto Star to Arkle. We must compare Arkle to the standards of his day, and Kauto Star to the standards of today. And you're righ, longevity, versaility, consistency, and the races won by both horses are things to look at. In Kauto Star's case, winning two Tingle Creeks, four Betfair Chases, five King Georges, two Gold Cups, two Champion Chases and an Ascot Chase is extraordinary in this day and age. Also must take into account that he came along at a time when staying chasers were at their strongest for maybe twenty odd years. Only ever been injured once (novice days) and has maintained a remarkable level of consistency through his seven / eight year racing career. I find it harder to analyse Arkle as he is one of about three horses I know that existed in the sixties. What was par for the course back then, I don't know, but I would concede that his weight giving abilities was remarkable.
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Agreed.
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got a roasting from a girl tonight for reasons I don't fully understand so felling nitpicky I should point out that kauto never won a Champion Chase, he should have, but fell and Newmill won the race, he also never won an arkle because he was injured, BUT............ he was the champion 2 mile chaser, best I'll see, bitch thought I'd tears in my eyes because of what she'd said, but twas for what I'd witnessed earlier in the day and for that in Frankel, Sea the Stars, Kauto, denman and Masterminded I'd probably drank the best racing wine already even at a young age.
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oh yeah, and moscow
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Tolmi Joined: 18 Mar 06
Replies: 196 26 Dec 11 21:30 It is always hard to assess the relative merits of different generations but anyone claiming Kauto Star as the best steeplechaser of all time might take into account the four occasions he raced against his stablemate Denman. Don't be silly man, have you not heard Camp Nicholls?? Every time Kauto Star has been beaten in his life he has not been at his best! Nothing to do with Denman producing one of the most stunning Gold Cup performances in recent history. In all seriousness though Kauto Star has been and still is a fantasatic racehorse. |
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Kauto Star is a fantastic horse who's longevity has been a credit to Paul Nicholls and his team and should be enjoyed by us all for his magnificent achievements.
He is the greatest NH horse since Dessie  imo.As for himself he was a freak and i prefer to listen to the great Peter O'Sullevan who said yesterday that Kauto should not be compared to Arkle but enjoyed for what he is. |
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Not even allowed compare them now
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I think the point he was trying to make is that Arkle was quite simply the greatest.
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