Betting tax on online bets introduced

Interesting point for us online bettors. Will PP and the other online bookies take the tax hit to retain the punters? How will betfair be taxed  because a)they don't have a high street outlet and b)we are already paying a commission? Are we going to be taxed twice?

What ever happens I'm sure that at all time BetFair will act in the best interests of themselves

I am not going to pay comission and taxes on my winnings, I for one will be off elsewhere

meaning I pay comission already but I am not willing to pay tax also (before some pedantic **** replies)

Whoever has come up with this 'tax' clearly hasn't thought it out properly. They should have licenced those online operators who wish to take bets from irish residents. This tax will be wholly unworkable and will never see the light of day IMO.

It would amount to a 7 per cent commission charge (5 per cent now and the 2 per cent tax), I don't think you'll find many players at those odds.

Betting Duty has to date only applied to bets placed in betting shops with bets placed by Irish
punters either online or over the phone, essentially with offshore entities, falling outside the
tax.  The Minister signalled some time ago that this situation needed to be addressed.  In
addition, work underway by the Department of Justice has been progressing on a proper
licensing regime which will serve to protect vulnerable people

What does that mean

Will it be taxed on the amount bet or the amount won? If it's taxed on the amount won on betfair we should get an allowance for our loses..

amount bet i'd say, that's how it works in the shops. only a guess tho.

Yeah that quote was laughable Vasco

bookies will take the hit (as before) when it was 3 or 5%.  betfair wont be involved and this is not the first time FF have said something and not happen.  Why the feck dont they legalise cannabis and tax the feck out of it, smokers are paying far too much to scumbags as it is, and it would be freely available for all who need it.

Yeah is nice to know that they are putting on this tax out of love and kindness, will give everyone a warm fuzzy feeling when paying it

Im nearly out myself[smiley:crazy][smiley:crazy][smiley:crazy]

it sounds like a World Cup match outside Leinster House

I think they pay a 1% turnover tax on all bets placed bets in the shops. If applied the same way on betfair ... then it'll be a 1% tax on layers .... however, how can you tax a layer in Australia who's laying an Irish punter?

Sounds like Belfast in the 80s

Annex I
Applying Betting Duty to Offshore Betting

Betting Duty has to date only applied to bets placed in betting shops with bets placed by Irish
punters either online or over the phone, essentially with offshore entities, falling outside the
tax. The Minister signalled some time ago that this situation needed to be addressed. In
addition, work underway by the Department of Justice has been progressing on a proper
licensing regime which will serve to protect vulnerable people.
The Government intends to include provisions in the Finance Bill and revise the Betting Act
1931 to ensure that all bookmakers taking bets from Ireland will pay 1% betting duty on those
bets in the same way that betting shops currently do. Betting Exchanges will also be subject
to tax under the new arrangements but the calculation of the tax will differ from that applying
to bookmakers.
The Minister is hopeful that by including the high-growth area of the betting sector,
particularly given the increasing prevalence of smart phones, the tax base from betting will be
boosted significantly. In a full year it is expected that the tax yield could grow up to €20
million depending on the prevailing market conditions.
Just as important is the positive signal this measure will convey to international betting
operations that have expressed an interest in or have already invested in Ireland. A location
with an appropriate licensing framework coupled with relatively low taxes provides real
investment and employment opportunities in this sector. The details will be contained in the
Finance Bill and the proposed amendments to the Betting Act.

Im no financial expert, but they've made a balls of this, surely? What happened to the 2% tax and licensing of online books? Id love to know how they plan on dealing with Betfair. Between their problems with HRI and now the government, any chance Betfair will pull stumps out of Ireland like they did in France?!

No. too much bookies money in BF Ireland

RB, he still doesn't know how to tackle the online betting yet.

Maybe he could tell betfair to put all those on 5% up to 7/8% on their net winnings. That should make it very simple. Obviously those on 2% would go up to 5% etc.

so what if I am in Spain on holidays using my Irish SIM in my I phone? Will BF monitor my whereabouts on behalf of the Irish gov? Or will BF just flag my account as ALL bets payable for 1% tax? But if I am not in Ireland I should not be liable? Right?

How will this work?

Depends on where you are habitually resident rather than where you are at any moment in time.

It will be very interesting to see how they propose to work this in relation to the exchanges.

In a lot of ways this sums up a lot about this govt. An ill thought out idea that could be best described as not very workable. If it comes in and onlky winnings which i am sure is the way it will work will be taxed it will mean more people getting accounts closed or limted as customers who were profitbale before are not costing the firms money. Not sure how people who bet ito Asia or central america will be taxed, in my view they won't be and this will just add to the farce.

I'm sure that Government will charge Betfair the 1 or 2%. Like all other bookmakers, they can surely absorb this. Why would they pass it on to us. They already are collecting a 5% commission from us.

if people on here are interested ,betfair have a chatline on here tonight taking q/a .maybe those interested might like to inquire from them their take , excuse the pun , on the irish budget and its effects on its customers .

Wonky and rocketfingers,if ye could be so kind as to refrain from posting on this thread as this isn't your usual LOI or anti GAA  stuff,this is an intelligent debate involving some very articulate people.There are propably alot of members who like reading what some smart minds think,and maybe like myself would not have the capabilities or overall knowledge to make a worthwhile contribution.That doesn't seem to bother the two of ye prickks,butting in with stupid comments trying to bring the thread to your usual low level.Keep your dopey LOI noses out of this thread,ye are miles out of your respective leagues.

robo layboy needs you needs you to go outside the caravan and turn on the generator ,i hope you pair feed that poor pony .

As they say in them movies with court cases "no further questions your honour"

i'm sure you're well used to court appearances robo , know the drill well i bet . tallaght knacker .

Finally online betting will be taxed accordingly and contribute to the Irish Exchequer.

The enormous increase in online betting and the advent of betting exchanges have basically caught governments on the hop and until now they have not been  legislated for . Any bet placed by an Irish resident on an account with an Irish address should be taxed accordingly.

Question

What is the difference between me having a tenner on Binocular to win the Champion Hurdle with p a d d ypower.com and having the same  bet on betfair?
Both are licenced bookmakers therefore both should either charge the tax or absorb the tax but the bet should be levied.

yummy did you try the betfair chat line for an answer ?

I think if you read the annex to the budget carefully you will find that for once the Government seem to have done their homework and are able to recognise the unfairness of applying a turnover tax to the betfair model.It would appear to me as if betfair will be taxed on a percentage of the commission they receive from winning bets placed by Irish resident punters similar to the way the levy is paid in England.I would imagine that this is what betfair lobbied for in their pre budget submissions and would be regarded as a good result for them.
The general thrust of the annex seems to encourage compliance by online bookmakers by setting a relatively low tax rate.

With so much talk beforehand about the tax being raised to 2%, I suppose there would be a good chance that the government said to the books, "right lads, we'll leave it at 1%, but we want your word that ye'll play ball and pay the 1% on your online and phone turnover". Like others have said, a turnover tax on Betfair wouldn't be fair and they should be asked to pay a tax on gross profits or the like. It might be a fair solution for all, provided the books play ball. Perhaps the government looked into a licensing type solution and felt it was too big a can of worms, so decided to play this safer option, which you couldn't knock them for. They have bigger things to worry about.

Also, I've heard down the grapevine that the horse racing and greyhound fund has been cut by 3.3%, which isnt a bad result, I dont think

Not sure if they can track down where every bet originates from . If they can then simple to impose a cost on that bet if deemed appropriate . But if you live in the South and operate a bank account and address in the North , what then ? And if I am in the south and place an internet bet , will I be eligible to taxation from that jurisdiction ?

Like a lot of other situations  , technology and ideas are catching traditional revenue raisers out . The increase in high tech phones and connectivity to internet are getting increasingly in the way of old legislation .

Talking about tracking down bets. I tried to log on to an online book when I was in America earlier in the year and I was blocked from placing a bet, so they do have the means to know where you are. Im not too tech savvy though and there might be a way around this

I believe Tolmi has more or less nailed it.

PP etc will pay a tax on Irish online punter stakes. This they can do and can track easily enough.

BF customers already pay commission and BF knows exactly how many Irish resident clients it has. Rememeber, up until about a year ago BF were voluntarily paying HRI €1M+ per year and getting sweet FA in return. Now, they will be brought into the net here - licenced by the state and obliged to pay a % of the commission generated by Irish registered customers to the exchequer, which in turn will go to HRI. Irish based clients should see no real difference and comm. should not increase. Meanwhile BF will bring jobs here and probably engaged in increased competition on the ground.

The % that Betfair pay will, in my view, need to be around 10-15% of their gross revenue from Irish clients in order to keep the traditional bookmakers happy. This is more or less what they were paying under the voluntary agreement that they had, and which HRI demanded be doubled.

This could be a result for everyone IMO - Betfair will be pleased because rather than being the elephant in the room they will now be a fully paid up member of the industry over here and will be 'officially' paying their way. The industry will get additional funds (though not as much as they probably think) and PP et al will not be able to say that the move is unfair. I just hope that the UK and foreigh online operators who refuse to play ball with the govt are dealt with and blocked from accepting bets from Irish residents because without strict enforement it will lead to a 2 tier system that will ultimately cost Irish people jobs.

From what I can recall I think Betfair were making a voluntary payment which it amounted to about €4.5 million over 3 years.HRI wanted to double this and also wouldn't talk unless any increase was backdated.They ended up getting nothing and also told racecourses not to accept sponsorship from Betfair.It was a bizarre situation whereby an organisation was making a payment to the HRI that they were not lagally obliged to do and the HRI thinking they could play hardball.Paying a chief executive €313k p.a. to make decisions like that[smiley:crazy]

Cell 3

Cell 4

Tolmi – That is a systemic problem in HRI. It is top heavy with Management who have little or no understanding of the Gaming/Betting Industry. Who would be accountable for advising the Board of HRI to reject a VOLUNTARY payment of circa €1.5m per year from Betfair?

I think their understanding of the betting industry is highlighted by the performance of Tote Ireland their 100% owned subsidiary.In 2008 on a turnover of over €49 million they managed only to break even.With their margins that turnover should have resulted in a net profit of at least €3 million using even the worst industry norms.They wasted the boom and are now squealing.Interestingly no 2009 figures are yet available even though they should be.

The wording in the budget speech seems to suggest that the new online tax of 1% will apply to punters who  are based in ROI who bet with either bookies who are based in ROI or with bookies who are not based in ROI but who will be licenced by the Irish government to offer their service in to the ROI market. Both the licencing bit and enforcement bit will be tricky but that looks to be the plan. If that is the plan the inference seems to be that Irish or indeed non irish bookies who are based in ROI will be able to offer completely tax free betting to non ROI residents. The proposed amendment to the 1931 Betting legislation will obviously reveal the exact details.

At the moment irish and non irish bookies based in ROI already offer that service anyway but do so by basing the jobs in ROI but their bet accepting servers in IOM and Gibraltar so the bets technically are placed abroad thereby avoiding the 1% betting tax. I dont know what the foreign jurisdictions charge for this privelege, but whatever the charge is it can now be avoided as it looks like it will be legal for ROI based bookies to accept bets from non ROI based punters completely tax free which should lead to more jobs, more corporation profits tax etc.

Billy, i understand your argument but what would make them want to leave Gibraltar, Irelands' CPT rate ?

By my understanding they pay a turnover tax of .1 percent and a licensing fee around 100,000 plus.

If it was to be tax free to those outside R.O.I. then it probably would makes economic sense for the major players to move here if the license fee was somewhere similar.

i havent read this forum , but can someone answer me will i get taxed now on my betfair bets

From my reading of it I would say it is highly unlikely that you will have to pay tax.However the matter will not be finalised until the Finance Act at the earliest.

thanks tolmi for the reply

Rowley. If the trading terms here were the same as Gibraltar it would be no contest. I know a couple of people who work over there and while the weather is a plus it is not really an attractive place to live and work. International bookies based in Dublin would find it easier to attract staff, would be very close to the UK, have access to high speed broadband  and also have access to motivated highly educated staff. The fact that Bf have located their telephone operation here speaks volumes. If things get nasty in the UK with respect to levy levels they have a ready made bolthole here with respectable tax levels particularly if the tax is a % of commission which seems to be the case.