a forum racehorse ownership?

Why is it value now?

The prices of the horses have come down, but not many trainers that I am aware of, have reduced their fees?
You are also now competing for less prize money.

Agree with Templett. Even if the horse was half the price you'd expect the chance of any return has reduced

agree totally
hri admin charges are a rip off
trainers reduce fees?ur having a laugh!
heard most of the p2p are struggling for sponsorship

the money you pay for horse is forgotten the day you buy.
the real cost only begins after.

lads i think irish guy 13 means well and maybe he's not to far off the mark re value  . the product i.e. racehorses ,have dropped in price most sales companys  reporting a downturn .and the level he would be buying at lets say the 10,000 to 15,000 horse certainly leaves room for consideration . the only thing  against it i'd say is , the massive organisation it would involve .

Actually it is a great idea, if you could get like minded involved. At the moment it is easy to lease a well bred horse with an option to buy, so no initial outlay.

Henry de Bromhead is trying to get a syndicate going atm, €1.1k for 5% share, €80 a month training fees, give him a bell if youre serious about it, dont waste his time though.

Its French bred he said its fairly alright but sure ya wouldnt know, this was two weeks back and dunno if hes got enough people yet.

It's a Bernebeau gelding as far as I know Doyler.
Would that be right?

Not sure DV only loose info, didnt go further.

He has it 5 months and said done a few nice bits of work apparently, half brother to Coole River I think. But when he has all the people and they wanna buy something else he said that would happen too so the horse isnt locked in until they decide.

Was interested enough take 5% when first mentioned but other half thinks it'd be a bad idea, shes prob right tbf.

That would not be the one that I had heard of anyway.
I doubt he would be giving a Coole River, half brother away for around the 20k mark, as it would surely command a lot more.
I did hear that the syndicate could look at another horse if they wanted alright.
I think it is being run through facebook as well, which is an interesting idea.

If you have an interest in ownership and have the free cash, it's a good time to buy. Most that enjoy ownership don't expect to get a return, just some good days out both on and off the track. Of course, prizemoney would be great but if you are picking up a few quid, you'll be delighted as winning is everything for a lot of syndicate members. We picked up an Oscar at the Derby sale for just over €20k. A few years back, buying a correct Oscar was out of our price range but prices have dropped quicker than our budget so you are def getting more bang for your buck.

A friend of mine passed on details of the DeBromhead syndicate. From a cost perspective, it's as good value as you will get out there, bar my own syndicates of course!! I know nothing about the horse itself or the sire but then Coole River is by the unfashionable Carroll House.

Leasing at the moment in also a very good option. There are some nicely bred mares out there and you can write your own terms at the moment. I wouldn't normally suggest leasing as you can end up with rubbish, albeit you can hand it back. But at the moment, fortune favours the lessee.

Just rang the fellow who was with me at the time, a 4yo by Great Palm, half brother to Coole River and Dempsey was the one. Donnas Palm is by Great Palm too.

1.1k sounds more than decent but dont want overheads that arent absolutely needed in a recession really

Horse sounds exciting but chances of getting money back you know.. only thing I'm interested in anyway

many interested in the idea?

There is nothing wrong with that breeding at all and he is very reasonably priced (without seeing the individual of course).

The Bernebeau was the one that I jad been told about, so it obviously changed.

What a load of poopoo.do u think if it was any use they would be syndicating it.its not as if Potts couldnt buy it.As for the 1600 a month training fee,did ya say it was Henry De Bromhead or Henry Cecil that was training it.

Great Palm wouldn't be the most fashionable or liked NH stallion.

On €1,600 a month, I presume that's an all in on training plus entry and racing costs. If it's ready to run you will end up spending €300-400 a run on it just on entry, jock, travel etc. Like all these all-ins, they are priced to protect against higher costs and obviously the cost of this is a premium each month. Personally I don't like all-ins as it doesn't take into account the three months your horse is on hols or the fact that if the horse is injured the drop in training fees offsets vets fees. But others prefer the certainty of a fixed monthly amount and at €1,600 it is not outrageous for a decent trainer.

400 a week is a lot of money bi . i think the days of multiple entrys should be a thing of the past. i know trainers plan ahead and with balloting out etc etc it can be hard . but the skill required by trainers to place their horses correctly is imo now more important than ever . vast amounts of money went into the turf clubs coffers , trainers making entries willy nilly . trainers must cut costs as mush as possible in these trying financial  times .

I would not buy into a broken horse as it is likely to have already been tested and is likely to be no star if it is then offered to syndicates.

Great Palm has got some nice types including Great Endeavour and the mare has a history of getting very useful types such as Dempsey and Puget Blue in addition to Coole River.

Temlett, most stallions, even the bad ones, have one or two decent runners. We own a Beat All and after winning a bumper he is the fifth or sixth highest rated Beat All per RPR ratings. Would I buy another, no. Am I happy with the one we have, absolutely. All I'm saying about Great Palm is that he wouldn't have the best of reputations in the industry. I think it's their wind, like most stallions that don't make it.

Workrider, completely agree on mutliple entries. We would only do that if we genuinely wanted a choice of track, ground, race types. No other point in wasting the money. My reference to €300-400 was just for one run. What do jocks get...€160. Plus entry of say €80. Travel to track (if only horse) and lad €50. So you're up to €300 and if he runs once a month for five months then that leaves €1,300 a month and horses don't shoe themselves. So it would be at most €40 a day then for trainer. That's about the going rate for a decent trainer with Grade 1 form, give or take a few quid. Of course, if you wanted to train him yourself it would look like daylight robbery!

bi. i dont have any room for it at the moment the yard is full what i'm saying and i'm sure you understand is . money is scarse atm all round , most guys entering a syndicate want low cost and plenty of craic . so 1,660 a month would be off putting , plus prize money has really dropped . i know how hard it is to keep everyone happy as i ran a syndicate myself in the 90s .its much harder to get people to part with their hard earned .

i never said anything about buying harry de bromheads's horse, i would not buy a horse that already been broken myself.
an agent would  or trainer would have to be approached.

i just taught  some formulites would be interested, given their interests in horses/gambling... and the possible info got from the yard/horse might prove a way of punting with knowledge.

in relation to the value i mentioned,  it was only ment towards the prices of horses a few years ago. training/racing  costs are pretty static.

harry [:x]

Workrider, I think most syndicates want a winner first and foremost. No point being with a lowcost trainer if he's useless. Cash is king at the moment but I'd like to think those that would go into a syndicate at the moment are not in financial difficulties and therefore can afford to put in the money in the hope of having some craic. I manage 40 members in 4 syndicates and I don't have any issues. Get six months training fees in advance, plenty of communication and stable visits and there shouldn't be a problem. Give members every chance and they won't be disappointed. Also, you need a trainer who will tell you honestly if the horse is no good. We had one of those horses and the members were fine with it as they were clearly informed at every stage of the process.

go to the best..wp mullins..no point in going to a trainer who has 10 winners a year

Kavvie: ten winners  a year is not bad when you look at some trainers stats.  Ten winners is great if the trainer informs you. Doubt W Mullins would tell you about another persons horse in the yard, infact hes so busy I dont know if he would even tell you about your own?

Gents count me in with this plan - but only on condition we don't call our horse "The Shamrock Rover"!

It would flatter to deceive in every race and inevitably always end up coming 2nd!

any new up & coming trainers worth following?
am sure their training fees would be a bit cheaper than the established lads

Colin Bowe is the name on most lips.

He is doing very well and he has excellent facilities, or at least he has a very good gallop which ensures that horses are fit when they run. I think some of the Wexford trainers have used his gallops in the past to ready their horses.

I am not sure what his schooling facilities are like though, or what price he is.

in all honesty lads there are some really good trainers out there who dont cost the earth . bi, would have his own preference no doubt and i respect that , but the cost of a horse doesen't guarantee it'll win races , even horses with the best confirmaton dont always win as coolmore and godolphin will tell you , if you think back to the recent past for examples,for instance  tom foley danoli , bowes , limestone lad , not exactly the upper echelons of the training ranks now are they .

Not sure about that workrider.

I would say that there are a lot reasonable trainers out there who don't cost the earth.

The number of good trainers would be small, as is evidenced by the improvement that Willie Mullins gets out horses that are transferred to him.

p.s. sof , we better not call it the bohemian either or it'll always be arriving late but never quiet getting there

Is workrider Distant View too?

Workrider, you're dead right, price and ability do not move together, particularly with national hunt horses given that it ain't all about speed. What I would say, though, is that the more you have to spend the more horses you will be able to buy. So you are not pigeon holed into buying a horse which has something you don't like. For the type of money we spend, around €20-25k, we can buy a nice horse with a nice enough page without being a standout on either front. But that suits us fine. If you only have €5k to spend, you will find yourself a horse but I guarantee that if you ask ten horsey people what they think of the horse or the page, nine will tell you there is something wrong with it. The tenth is the buyer, of course. And that horse could go on to win a Gold Cup. There are no laws.

On trainers, it's like statistics, you can prove anything one way or tother. Take two trainers with 10 horses each. One lad isn't great an he breaks down 8 of the 10. The 2 that are ok come out and both win. 100% record. The other trainer knows his stuff and gets all 10 to the track and while they have varying degrees of ability, he wins with 5 of them. A 50% strike rate. Who would you prefer to have your horse with? Getting horses to the track is a good start. Winning comes after that. I judge on that basis, which trainer knows when to stop with a horse before he pushes it too far and it ends up with an injury.

bi, i take both your points on board , i know i'd rather have the 50k to spend on a horse than 5k .as you say it allows you more choice .its great you have such good members of you're syndicates and all pulling their weight . i think the point the starter of this thread  was trying to make was ,as far as he could see the downturn in the value of certain horses make the purchase of same attractive . now weather he or the people he'd hope would join  , would have the  same fiancial resorces at their disposal as you would have , would maybe a different matter .... re nh horse i dont think the page is as important as  flat pedigree ... giving the time it takes for nh stallions to make their mark . imo the dam rather than the stallion would be of more importance in most cases , of course there would be exceptions .

re nh horse i dont think the page is as important as  flat pedigree ... giving the time it takes for nh stallions to make their mark . imo the dam rather than the stallion would be of more importance in most cases , of course there would be exceptions .

never had you down as one of the sitting on the fence brigade WR.

rowley

Syndication is a great idea.person who organises pays nothing and has 95% of the control.his buddy trainer gets rid of a horse he cant sell to anybody else and he charges huge fees for as long as they can keep bluffing its members.1600 for henryde broomhead is a laugh surely.not even a mug syndicate would stand for that.

ignore robo , he's so bitter he see's the bad side of everything in life . must be a lonely oul life in a bedsit , ignore .

Not that I am particularly bothered (or willing to argue it!), but I dont think €80 a month to cover everything is unreasonable. I know Brian Ellison costs 100GBP per month for 5%, and IMO Henry de Bromhead would be a better trainer, but obviously I cant compare everyone because I dont know the costs of everyone, that horse was just in the top of my head when I read the thread.

I suppose it depends on your outlook on life, I would assume people could spend €80 a week, never mind a month, on drink and **** and think nothing of it. And you'd never get anything in return for drinks and **** either Or you could head to a couple of matches, not Ireland matches though or you'll be skint! Everywon is different innit

Smokes the blocked word.

IRISH GUY 13 . EMAIL ME weedy50@hotmail.co.uk  ( hot mail)  ID DEFINITLY BE INTERESTED . PS DOYLER I DONT $MOKE AN OFF THE BEER 5 WEEKS SO THINK THEIR COULD BE BIT CRAIC WITH THIS HORSE WONDER IS THE TRAINING FEES UP HERE IN  NORTH A LOT CHEAPER ?

You'd get a better deal changing pounds into euros wouldnt ya?! €80 works out in the high £60s atm I think. Depends on what they charge up there?

I WILL MAKE FEW ENQUIRES ASAP BE NICE HAVE BOTH PRICES ON VIEW SEE IF LOT DIFFERENCE

could u get any more info on that horse doyler ?

I'm going for a round of golf in a half hour so I could ya and have numbers etc, but I dont wanna start recommending/getting involved/messing him about you know. I was only using that €80 as a guide..

I've never been in a syndicate so when I heard those fees, they were the only ones I knew.

Robo has a point re a lot of syndicate businesses where the organiser takes a free share or the trainer sells on a dud for a decent price. However, that mud should not be thrown at all syndicate managers or trainers. For example, I pay for one full share in every horse and clearly state the profit I make from the syndicate. The horse is bought at auction so there can be no doubt about the market value. I don't agree with syndicate managers taking free shares or not disclosing how much they make. If they are earning a salary, then just say it. That way, the syndicate member can decide if it is worth paying you are much as the trainer, or not.

I would not say that the price a horse made at auction is necessarily market price.I have seen numerous occasions at sales where an agent buying a horse had an order for say 25k and spent the sale looking for a vendor with a horse worth less than this who would do a 50/50 stand in after 15k.Then gets his buddies to bid it up to the 25k and hey presto he has a touch landed.It is possible that in the current climate it is not happening as much but at the height of the boom people were being robbed by unscrupulous agents/trainers.

Tolmi, that's why I would never let an agent or trainer buy me a horse without me being there. I do my homework on the form and pedigree, our trainer does his work looking at the horses. We only buy when both he and I are happy. So he cannot engineer that before or even during the sale.

When I say market price, it is meant in the general sense. A horse in a field has no market price. It has a vendor price. At least in an auction, you can see who is bidding against you and make a call on it. I'm sure we have paid a few grand more for some of our horses than we had to but it's only a few grand as we knew who was bidding against us. Other side of it, if you're with a lad well known at the sales there is sometimes less competition as trainers that know each other won't bid against each other on the understanding that next time, you won't bid against him.

i'll email u later norn. cheers.

I thought I'd rekindle an old thread. There seems to be increased interest in horse ownership at the moment. We filled a syndicate before the sales and bought at the Derby sale last week.

We have a few more interested and we are targeting the August sales. If anyone on here is interested in joining us, let me know. We have 10% shares available and are looking to spend 20-25k on a nice three year old to go into training with Colm Murphy.

were has doyler gone btw ..hope he's alright....

He is readying So You Think for the Eclipse.

Welcome back Robo!!!!!!  Missed you

sounds interesting...between 2 and 2.5 k needed though...

BI - let me know the exact figures that I would be putting out for a 10% share??

pbunter, the up front capital cost is definitely a drawback but that's the price you pay for owning rather than leasing. We have always spent 20-30k and ended up with some really nice horses. 3 winners from 4 runnners isn't bad.

Kriskin, our budget is up to 25k to buy the horse. VAT and insurance for first year brings it up to 29k, which is 2,900 for a 10% share. If we spend less, you pay less. We charge no commissions or fees on purchase.

Thereafter, you put in €2,500 a year (€25k for the whole syndicate) into the syndicate bank account (which is where the €50 a week comes from). This is used to pay the actual training/racing costs over a four year period plus my clearly defined management fee. If we don't spend it, it stays in the bank account for your benefit. This is the difference between us and all-in fees syndicates. When the horse is on grass for the summer, the syndicate benefit by paying lower at grass fees, not the all-in fee you pay when the horse is in training. If its injured, the syndicate pay a lower box rest fee etc.

I have not had to go back to any of my syndciates looking for more than the agreed amount, and in fact after two years they tend to miss a payment as the contingencies built in create a buffer that we don't use.

I'm happy to answer any questions or you can visit our website www.winningwaysracing.ie for more information.