Irish Sports
There is currently 1 person viewing this thread.
I was delighted for D K Weld winning the Ascot Gold Cup with rite of passage. In the past he has done wonders with vintage crop,even better with Vinnie Roe and added another Melbourne Cup with Media Puzzle. These achievements have rightly been celebrated and he probably never got the credit he deserved for taking a modest European turf horse Go and Go and winning an American classic with him. However I always have a niggling suspicion that he has underachieved. He seems to have settled for around one group 1 winner a year and aside from his stayers he seems to struggle to get more than one group 1 win out of his horses (nightime, zagreb,casual conquest, brief truce) and for those horses who do win more than one group 1 they are almost never two group 1 wins in the same season (refuse to bend, grey swallow). In contrast O'Brien, Bolger and Oxx seem much better at putting together sequences of big race victories. Perhaps he pushes his horses too far in pursuit of the plan? Is he over-rated? For a string of his size is winning one or two group 1's a year and being the king of galway sufficient?
sort by:
Show
per page
Replies: 19
|
By:
One of the best imo
Irish 1000 Guineas - (4) - Prince's Polly (1982), Trusted Partner (1988), Nightime (2006), Bethrah (2010) Irish 2000 Guineas - (1) - Flash of Steel (1986) Irish Derby - (2) - Zagreb (1996), Grey Swallow (2004) Irish Oaks - (2) - Blue Wind (1981), Dance Design (1996) Irish St Leger - (6) - Vintage Crop (1993, 1994), Vinnie Roe (2001, 2002, 2003, 2004) Matron Stakes - (2) - Valley Forge (1977), Dress to Thrill (2002) Moyglare Stud Stakes - (1) - Flutter Away (1987) National Stakes - (5) - Diamonds Are Trumps (1977), Day Is Done (1981), Definite Article (1994), Mus-If (1998), Refuse to Bend (2002) Pretty Polly Stakes - (3) - Market Booster (1992), Dance Design (1996, 1997) Tattersalls Gold Cup - (5) - Cockney Lass (1987), Definite Article (1996), Dance Design (1997), Grey Swallow (2005), Casual Conquest (2009) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Australia Melbourne Cup - (2) - Vintage Crop (1993), Media Puzzle (2002) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- France Prix de l'Abbaye de Longchamp - (2) - Committed (1984, 1985) Prix Royal-Oak - (1) - Vinnie Roe (2001) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Germany Bayerisches Zuchtrennen - (1) - Market Booster (1993) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Great Britain 2000 Guineas - (1) - Refuse to Bend (2003) Ascot Gold Cup - (1) - Rite of Passage (2010) Cheveley Park Stakes - (1) - Sookera (1977) Coronation Stakes - (1) - Sutton Place (1978) Golden Jubilee Stakes - (2) - Committed (1984), Big Shuffle (1987) Middle Park Stakes - (1) - Steel Heart (1974) Nunthorpe Stakes - (1) - Committed (1984) Oaks - (1) - Blue Wind (1981) St. James's Palace Stakes - (1) - Brief Truce (1992) Sun Chariot Stakes - (1) - Dress to Thrill (2002) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Hong Kong Hong Kong Mile - (1) - Additional Risk (1991) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Italy Derby Italiano - (1) - In a Tiff (1992) -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- United States American Derby - (3) - Pine Dance (2000), Evolving Tactics (2003), Simple Exchange (2004) American Oaks - (1) - Dimitrova (2003) Belmont Stakes - (1) - Go and Go (1990) Flower Bowl Invitational Stakes - (1) - Dimitrova (2003) Secretariat Stakes - (1) - Winchester (2008) |
|
By:
I have seen dumb topics in my time (I have started a few in my time) but this goes straight in at number one.
In fact the reality is that dermot Weld has spent his whole life overachieving. He is definitely one of the top 10 (if not 5) trainers there has ever been. One of the great trainers |
|
By:
no one has yet actually addressed the points made. He has had 38 years as a trainer to accumulate his (at first glance) seemingly impressive list of big race wins. However he has had always had a very large string numerically and he has had a significant number of wealthy patrons capable of providing him with horses as well bred as those of any of his rivals. The main questions are whether he has outperformed relative to his opportunities and why can't he seem to train horses to win more than a single group 1 in a year? I don't believe it is a 'dumb topic' but an interesting topic worthy of debate. I'm by no means a DK Weld hater but it is also worth considering how horses like Theatrical and Twilight Agenda performed better for other trainers. Perhaps posters overrate him because of his Melbourne Cups?
|
|
By:
i certainly dont overrate him victors
|
|
By:
He's an ok trainer but he's light years away from mvob and not in the same league as stoute,cecil,fabre,oxx,aiden.he's not champions league standard.He's clever enough at self promotion - very quick to list off his successes in that fake modesty way of his.Winning 10 races at galway every year is a clever move,biggest crowds of the year and the racing media falling over him for a full week every year,keeps his name up there in the public eye.
|
|
By:
Anyone with that CV can't be accused of underachieving.
However, he could be accused of undertrying with good horses and relying on the relatively weak Irish Pattern to provide the bread and butter winnings. Anyone with Khalid Abdulla and Hamdan Al Maktoum horses can be expected to field a good share of decent winners too... Take Famous Name: Establishes that it's a Group 1 horse with a head 2nd in the French Derby In twelve subsequent starts, it has won 3 Irsh Group 3s and 3 Irish Listed Races, placed in 2 French Group 2s and a French Group 1 as well as 2 irsih Group 3s and an Irish Group 1. So a horse that had shown that it could be competitive in top races has only been tried in group 1s twice in 12 starts, one of which it followed home its stablemate! All this strikes me as a sign of underconfidence and would position him at the exact opposite end of the trainer spectrum to Clive Brittain and potentially explain why the original poster may have had a point. |
|
By:
In contrast with the other senior Irish trainers, one feels that John Oxx is well aware of the quality of his charges and thus faces them fairly accurately.
Contrast with Jim Bolger who knows a pattern horse but may not know which level of the pattern it can win at so is happy to face his good animals in an array of Listed or Group races, usually testing them at the top along the way if he thinks they've got a shot at it. And, of course Aidan O'Brien, who is paid to win Group 1s! |
|
By:
victor ur a bloody idiot a most retarded thread
|
|
By:
 WTF is with this thread |
|
By:
The poster certainly raises some interesting points, good summation jair 1970, I've only really started following the game closely in the last five years and based on his achievements in that time (2 classic winners I think,a Tatts gold cup and the Gold Cup, though I do remember Grey swallow's Irish Derby)ar4e all that spring to mind. For someone of my age, given his backing and the recent coming on board of KA, I would say that on recent achievemnt he is a good but not brilliant trainer. I also think he can come accross as condescending in an interview, PS I don't bet on Galway, The big boys are playing at Goodwood
|
|
By:
Chinese White
 |
|
By:
Best fishing expedition I've ever seen
 |
|
By:
Not much wrong with starting a thread like this and the poster is entitled to ask the question.
Weld's achievements in Britain are commendable but far from spectacular. How many group 1 winners has he trained in the UK? The Golden Jubilee was a Group 2 or 3 at the time as the Cork and Orrery and the Sun Chariot was not a group 1 either. Two classics is not huge for a man that has been in the game so long and has been well patronised. The Irish wins are obviously much higher but many were achieved when Bolger was very weakened and Aidan was only being tested with the some flat horses after victories such as urubande at Cheltenham. Since Ballydoyle hit their stride he has 2 Irish 1000 Guineas, 1 Irish Derby, and a few other (mainly very weak) group 1s. He is quite rightly praised for the Melbourne Cup wins and selecting the correct horses and also the Go and Go wins. However the remainder of the American wins have been in extremely weak turf contests and unlike his rivals, he has yet to win a Breeders Cup race. Ed Dunlop has every bit as good a record in the States and abroad and does not get the reputation as the premier international trainer. The poster has a very valid point here and Weld certainly would not imo be ranked alongside the very best of the last 20-25 years. A very good trainer - YES An all time great - NO |
|
By:
illuminating post there Distant View
|
|
By:
nonsense . trained committed a top sprinter an had some good middle ditance horses
|
|
By:
It's a difficult topic to answer unless you know the quality of the string he has to work with and not necessarily the number he has to deal with. Aidan is obviously getting the colts and fillies which have been purchased by the coolmoore boys, with there floods of cash to bring in the best movers, confirmation, and pedigree types in the open sales, and they have the private purchases, and their own top notch broodmares as well. What trainer would you say has a similar level of quality thoroughbreds in their stable? and then we can compare results.
|
|
By:
1) M V O'Brien and A P O'Brien
3 J S Bolger, J M Oxx and D K Weld. I think you are right there Donal. I can't dispute it. I think if he was a great trainer the pressure would be too much but from No 3 in the country he can enjoy the game much more and another 10 winners next month in Galway!! |
|
By:
Gets more than his fair share of blue bloods but consistently underachieves with them. Most definitely not a great trainer.
|
|
By:
It's amazing people's responses, I didn't realise the amount of people who didn't rate Weld
|