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Constitution Hill raised 7lb by official handicapper despite first Flat defeat at Kempton.
Two things: One, big mistake running him a race he couldn't win (I said he would get outpaced before the race) as, two, the handicapper always over reacts to pattern race runs i.e. takes the form at face value and applies no common sense.
There is no way Con Hill is a 108 flat rated horse. Why can't the handicapper see this?
Two things: One, big mistake running him a race he couldn't win (I said he would get outpaced before the race) as, two, the handicapper always over reacts to pattern race runs i.e. takes the form at face value and applies no common sense.
There is no way Con Hill is a 108 flat rated horse. Why can't the handicapper see this?
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Nicky apparently thought the horse would get a drop in his handicap mark after the race..
Sep 8, 2026 -- 11:17AM, CagliariG wrote:
Nicky had already stated it was a race he could not win and the purpose was to get a mark qualifying him to run in Heritage Handicaps, his new mark may even be lower than it could have been as he was not given a hard time and certainly would improve fitness wise, perhaps the handicapper has used common sense by ignoring these facts?As for the French system, how does it make sense not to re-assess a horse who is beaten by a whisker?
Rubbish. Handicappers are supposed to handicap on what they have just seen, not on what they want to see OR WHAT THEY MIGHT SEE IN THE FUTURE!
As for the 'to get a mark' nonsense, they could have run him in another novice race to get a mark and I very much doubt he would now be 108.
And on top of all that Nicky has now come out and said because of his stupidly high mark he now won't be running in handicaps, so that blows your 'to get a mark' excuse out of the water because the mark he has now got is too high. And that is because, as I said above and before the race in the September Stakes thread, THEY RAN HIM IN THE WRONG RACE!!!
You are a genius like so many on here Coneygree and know better than the trainer. Had you kept up you would know he ran at Kempton as the trainer wanted to know where they stood in the bigger picture and they would learn something they would not have by running in another Novice!! hth
rated 101 its beaten 5 3/4L by a OR 114.. beaten 2 3/4L by a OR 111
that entitles it to be rated 1.05 ish imo..108 hash.
that entitles it to be rated 1.05 ish imo..108 hash.
Excelebration and Farrh moderate ? They won 5 Group Ones between them. It would have been 11 if Frankel wasn't around.
Frankel "just a good horse" ? Good horses in any era do not win Group Ones routinely by 5, 6, 7 and even 11 lengths do they ?
You have to be exceptional to do that.
Frankel "just a good horse" ? Good horses in any era do not win Group Ones routinely by 5, 6, 7 and even 11 lengths do they ?
You have to be exceptional to do that.
That's why a lot of owners are reluctant to run their horses in G2 and G3 races because you get hammered afterwards if you finish in the same parish as the winner.
Thought it ran well until the button was pushed but I suppose a 164 day break is going to leave some sort of mark.
Thought it ran well until the button was pushed but I suppose a 164 day break is going to leave some sort of mark.
Yes I'm not convinced at all that the two Kempton efforts matched Southwell. That was a real turn of foot, backed up by the clock. Who knows if Southwell is as good as it's going to get. I'm pretty sure he is capable of doing better, but the indications are that he wasn't felt to need to race on Saturday. However that's exactly how it looked.
it won 2 micky mouse novices on the snaf..big step up to a gr3.
He left Square Necker for dust and he is a horse not far off 100. Yes there was a lot of old boats in the Southwell race, making up the numbers, but that line of form, and the time suggests it wasn't a micky mouse performance. With OM barely nudging him out. Technically, as in rating wise people could make Saturday's run superior. Not for me it wasn't.
DixieDean
Excelebration and Farrh moderate ? They won 5 Group Ones between them. It would have been 11 if Frankel wasn't around.
Frankel "just a good horse" ? Good horses in any era do not win Group Ones routinely by 5, 6, 7 and even 11 lengths do they ?
You have to be exceptional to do that.
Frankel did not run good times and he beat the same horses in most of his races.
By chance I looked at who Excelebration beat and the first race I looked at was the Gladness Stakes (G3) at The Curragh.
In that race Excelebration beat Criosultan.
Then Croisultan ran 4th/4; 10th/10; 10th/11; was then sold for 15,000 pounds, the ran for his new trainer unplaced; unplaced; 8th/8; unplaced; unplaced; unplaced; unplaced.
Excelebration beat Cityscape twice in Group 1s (he won three).
Cityscape was a Group 3 horse who won a Group 1 in Meydan with the dodgy 2/1 fav Ambitious Dragon in 7th (I never heard of him and that fav never won again in 5 races)
Farhh won his last two races (G1s) and retired to stud - the placed opposition (111, 110, 108) in the first, and then a neck ahead of Cirrus des Aigles.
His other wins were a maiden and two handicaps.
Excelebration and Farrh moderate ? They won 5 Group Ones between them. It would have been 11 if Frankel wasn't around.
Frankel "just a good horse" ? Good horses in any era do not win Group Ones routinely by 5, 6, 7 and even 11 lengths do they ?
You have to be exceptional to do that.
Frankel did not run good times and he beat the same horses in most of his races.
By chance I looked at who Excelebration beat and the first race I looked at was the Gladness Stakes (G3) at The Curragh.
In that race Excelebration beat Criosultan.
Then Croisultan ran 4th/4; 10th/10; 10th/11; was then sold for 15,000 pounds, the ran for his new trainer unplaced; unplaced; 8th/8; unplaced; unplaced; unplaced; unplaced.
Excelebration beat Cityscape twice in Group 1s (he won three).
Cityscape was a Group 3 horse who won a Group 1 in Meydan with the dodgy 2/1 fav Ambitious Dragon in 7th (I never heard of him and that fav never won again in 5 races)
Farhh won his last two races (G1s) and retired to stud - the placed opposition (111, 110, 108) in the first, and then a neck ahead of Cirrus des Aigles.
His other wins were a maiden and two handicaps.
the time suggests it wasn't a micky mouse performance
i said the race was micky mouse yfdsc..not its performance.
i said the race was micky mouse yfdsc..not its performance.
The deadwood that took part is therefore irrelevant. He beat a progressive 4yo virtually 10 lengths only nudged out, and that 4yo is now rated 97. I personally feel that was a much stronger performance than Saturday, but the handicapper only rates on what has happened. He obviously raced much higher rated horses on Saturday, hence the rating hike. But for me, Southwell was a superior run. The open question is will that ever be replicated. Clearly, the next step is turf and well away from Kempton.
kincsem - you have a different take to that of Timeform, the RP, the BHA Handicapper and the majority of racing experts .
HRAC himself, a man not prone to hyperbole, said he had never seen a better racehorse.
Do you not think Frankel could have put up better times in just about every one of his races ? How often was he all out ?
So he often came up against the same horses, who'd a thought it? IF you are a Group performer you will regularly come up against horses you have already raced against.
There's only so many top level races at each distance each year. Any superstar of the past could have holes picked in their form if you look hard enough. Sometimes you just have to believe the evidence of your own eyes rather than stats.
You can only beat the opposition you are up against. In virtually every one of those races Frankel mullered the opposition.
Farhh was a very good horse - only touched off in the Eclipse & Moulin as well as his two Group 1 victories. He went straight to Group 1 from handicaps, not many can do that (Halling being a notable exception
). Excelebration was a top horse as well, he won his Group 1's very comfortably .
.HRAC himself, a man not prone to hyperbole, said he had never seen a better racehorse.
Do you not think Frankel could have put up better times in just about every one of his races ? How often was he all out ?
So he often came up against the same horses, who'd a thought it? IF you are a Group performer you will regularly come up against horses you have already raced against.
There's only so many top level races at each distance each year. Any superstar of the past could have holes picked in their form if you look hard enough. Sometimes you just have to believe the evidence of your own eyes rather than stats.
You can only beat the opposition you are up against. In virtually every one of those races Frankel mullered the opposition.
Farhh was a very good horse - only touched off in the Eclipse & Moulin as well as his two Group 1 victories. He went straight to Group 1 from handicaps, not many can do that (Halling being a notable exception
). Excelebration was a top horse as well, he won his Group 1's very comfortably .
His times in his Guineas, Queen Anne and Juddmonte were very fast.
CH rating of 108 after 3 runs on the AW is a fair rating, the handicapper knows as we all do that CH on turf on the right ground/distance is still likely to be a 110 plus rated horse.
sq necker ran to no where near 97 6 mth ago.
He could do no more than beat the shít out of Square Necker so it's inconsequential
what he does in future...except to relatively maintain his mark.
I think there's more in the tank once he gets his conditions...which we're yet to see
and maybe a seemingly harsh 7ib rise mightn't be harsh enough.
what he does in future...except to relatively maintain his mark.
I think there's more in the tank once he gets his conditions...which we're yet to see
and maybe a seemingly harsh 7ib rise mightn't be harsh enough.
DixieDean
Yes, Henry Cecil would say he never saw a better horse. He trained it.
You might notice every spring Aidan O'Brien says he never saw a faster horse.
And most years his "fastest horse ever" is moderate.
Back to Frankel.
Hypewrbole is the word that comes to mind.
The commentator in the 2000 Guineas called him 15 lengths in front, surely a massive overreach.
We still get back to the fact Frankel only once ran fast against standard time.
Ok, the ground may not have always have been good, but you still expect a few good times from a horse rated the best Thoroughbred to have ever raced anywhere at any time.
He never ran abroad, ran at only six racecourses, just beat the same opposition at home, running 4 times at Ascot, 3 times at Newmarket.
A few years ago for my own interest I listed all the horses that ran against Frankel. Try it. The same moderate horses every time.
I gave a few example of the racing merit of Farhh (what Farhh beat) and you came back and said he was a "very good horse".
I said: Farhh won his last two races (G1s) and retired to stud - the placed opposition (111, 110, 108) in the first, and then a neck ahead of Cirrus des Aigles.
His other wins were a maiden and two handicaps.
He was also 2nd in a four runner Group 1 in France, beaten by a filly.
Excelebration beat Cityscape twice (finished 2nd) to win two Group 1s. I gave an indication of Cityscape's merit, a Group 3 horse in my opinion.
Excelebration won the German 2000 Guineas (G2) by 7 lengths. Unfortunately, the horse he beat won 2 from 21, and lost his next 10 races after his defeat to Excelebration.
Back to the times Frankel ran. Enlighten me.
Towards the end of his career he beat Excelebration three times and Farhh twice in a run of five races and his rating jumped to 135, 136, 138, 140, 140.
Look at the races
QE II (8 ran) ... beat Excelebration, Dubawi Gold, Bullet Train and others.
Lockinge (6 ran) ... beat Excelebration, Dubawi Gold, Bullet Train and others.
Queen Anne (11 ran) ... beat Excelebration, Bullet Train and others.
Sussex Stakes (4 ran) ... beat Farhh, Bullet Train and others.
International (9 ran) ... beat Farhh, Bullet Train and others.
He is marketed as a top sire and has a very expensive stud fee.
I analysed 598 of his offspring, runner ratings against pedigrees.
He has been most successful with mares by the American sire Empire Maker (and Empire Maker's brother Chester House).
Of his top 20 offspring by ratings Attraction was the only Group 1 winning mare he served that produced a horse rated 120+.
We could discuss this ad infinitum but please list all the horses Frankel beat and the number of times each ran against him.
It will give you an idea he repeated the same performance many times, but did not travel to France, Ireland, or the USA to meet others.
Yes, Henry Cecil would say he never saw a better horse. He trained it.
You might notice every spring Aidan O'Brien says he never saw a faster horse.
And most years his "fastest horse ever" is moderate.
Back to Frankel.
Hypewrbole is the word that comes to mind.
The commentator in the 2000 Guineas called him 15 lengths in front, surely a massive overreach.
We still get back to the fact Frankel only once ran fast against standard time.
Ok, the ground may not have always have been good, but you still expect a few good times from a horse rated the best Thoroughbred to have ever raced anywhere at any time.
He never ran abroad, ran at only six racecourses, just beat the same opposition at home, running 4 times at Ascot, 3 times at Newmarket.
A few years ago for my own interest I listed all the horses that ran against Frankel. Try it. The same moderate horses every time.
I gave a few example of the racing merit of Farhh (what Farhh beat) and you came back and said he was a "very good horse".
I said: Farhh won his last two races (G1s) and retired to stud - the placed opposition (111, 110, 108) in the first, and then a neck ahead of Cirrus des Aigles.
His other wins were a maiden and two handicaps.
He was also 2nd in a four runner Group 1 in France, beaten by a filly.
Excelebration beat Cityscape twice (finished 2nd) to win two Group 1s. I gave an indication of Cityscape's merit, a Group 3 horse in my opinion.
Excelebration won the German 2000 Guineas (G2) by 7 lengths. Unfortunately, the horse he beat won 2 from 21, and lost his next 10 races after his defeat to Excelebration.
Back to the times Frankel ran. Enlighten me.
Towards the end of his career he beat Excelebration three times and Farhh twice in a run of five races and his rating jumped to 135, 136, 138, 140, 140.
Look at the races
QE II (8 ran) ... beat Excelebration, Dubawi Gold, Bullet Train and others.
Lockinge (6 ran) ... beat Excelebration, Dubawi Gold, Bullet Train and others.
Queen Anne (11 ran) ... beat Excelebration, Bullet Train and others.
Sussex Stakes (4 ran) ... beat Farhh, Bullet Train and others.
International (9 ran) ... beat Farhh, Bullet Train and others.
He is marketed as a top sire and has a very expensive stud fee.
I analysed 598 of his offspring, runner ratings against pedigrees.
He has been most successful with mares by the American sire Empire Maker (and Empire Maker's brother Chester House).
Of his top 20 offspring by ratings Attraction was the only Group 1 winning mare he served that produced a horse rated 120+.
We could discuss this ad infinitum but please list all the horses Frankel beat and the number of times each ran against him.
It will give you an idea he repeated the same performance many times, but did not travel to France, Ireland, or the USA to meet others.
if frankel had only ran in 10 class 2 h/caps against 90 ish rated horses and won each race at an average of 30L what OR would you give him?
My guess is it would be an impossibility for a horse to win ten consecutive handicaps and stay in that class.
He would move to class 1 handicap, to Listed, and upwards.
He would move to class 1 handicap, to Listed, and upwards.
Najidi Storm (sired by Frankel) set a record yesterday.
The shortest priced beaten favourite in horseracing history, 1/33.
Another record for Frankel.
The shortest priced beaten favourite in horseracing history, 1/33.
Another record for Frankel.
Why do people on here, and on most media outlets, keep going on about C Hill running in the Melbourne Cup?
Because the Australians are so stringent about the medical condition of the horses that are allowed to run in the race, it seems to me almost certain that C Hill would fail his X-Rays for the race. As an older horse who was a hurdler and who has suffered a fair few setbacks, his X-Rays would almost certainly show somethiog somewhere which would mean he was barred from the race.
Everyone seems to have forgotten that even Aidan O'Brien has had horses barred from the race due to 'shadows' on their x-rays. So, very unlikely that an ex-hurdler would pass the entry tests!!
Also, those who criticise ther handicaps system show they do not understand it. Of course, every week horses show their marks to be either too high or too low, but OVERALL and across the passge of time, the handicap system in pretty accurate. Sadly, though people find one horse from the past that was clearly handicaped wrongly and take that as an example how the whole system is flawed.
Lastly, Nicky Henderson must know more about horses and training than me, but he seems to have lost his marbles about C Hill. The horse ran reasonably close to Group horses last Saturday (and much better than I thought it would) so it was raised in the weights accordingly.
Henderson seems to have a real blind spot with this horse. If it runs quite well in a Group race after six months off, what does he expect the handcapper to do?
I cannot see how the horse is ever going to win again - unless Henderson finds a terrble listed race over 14f or more on soft or the AW. It will not win in higher than that and will have no chance off big weights in really good handicaps. It cannot jump again, so please RETIRE the horse!!!
It is sad to see the connections clinging on to what the horse was 3 years ago over hurdles. It is ten in four months time, so enough is enough with it....
Because the Australians are so stringent about the medical condition of the horses that are allowed to run in the race, it seems to me almost certain that C Hill would fail his X-Rays for the race. As an older horse who was a hurdler and who has suffered a fair few setbacks, his X-Rays would almost certainly show somethiog somewhere which would mean he was barred from the race.
Everyone seems to have forgotten that even Aidan O'Brien has had horses barred from the race due to 'shadows' on their x-rays. So, very unlikely that an ex-hurdler would pass the entry tests!!
Also, those who criticise ther handicaps system show they do not understand it. Of course, every week horses show their marks to be either too high or too low, but OVERALL and across the passge of time, the handicap system in pretty accurate. Sadly, though people find one horse from the past that was clearly handicaped wrongly and take that as an example how the whole system is flawed.
Lastly, Nicky Henderson must know more about horses and training than me, but he seems to have lost his marbles about C Hill. The horse ran reasonably close to Group horses last Saturday (and much better than I thought it would) so it was raised in the weights accordingly.
Henderson seems to have a real blind spot with this horse. If it runs quite well in a Group race after six months off, what does he expect the handcapper to do?
I cannot see how the horse is ever going to win again - unless Henderson finds a terrble listed race over 14f or more on soft or the AW. It will not win in higher than that and will have no chance off big weights in really good handicaps. It cannot jump again, so please RETIRE the horse!!!
It is sad to see the connections clinging on to what the horse was 3 years ago over hurdles. It is ten in four months time, so enough is enough with it....
Said it back in February The Knight. Should have been retired then. Nothing to gain on the flat with an ex 9 year old hurdler. The Melbourne cup was never happening. An utter impossibility.
Maddy Playle RP
"Sea Pigeon was a remarkable athlete but he did not have anything like the career arc of Constitution Hill"
PMSL Ebor under 10st. Two Chester Cups Two Champion hurdles.
"Sea Pigeon was a remarkable athlete but he did not have anything like the career arc of Constitution Hill"
PMSL Ebor under 10st. Two Chester Cups Two Champion hurdles.
someone on rtv said CH had passed x rays, apparently comfortably. They didn't say who passed them, or if it was just replicating Oz in advance of the real testing.
The horse is able to compete at a high level on the flat and already earned £33K prizemoney. Plenty of yards will never get one that good. To me it would seem utterly daft to retire him as a racehorse. At the very least he should get a couple of spins on the turf, trying out a couple of distances.
The horse is able to compete at a high level on the flat and already earned £33K prizemoney. Plenty of yards will never get one that good. To me it would seem utterly daft to retire him as a racehorse. At the very least he should get a couple of spins on the turf, trying out a couple of distances.
Kincsem - waffling a load of mainly meaningless stats means nowt.
Frankel won 14 races , 10 of them Group Ones. In all but two of them he hammered the opposition. Without being extended.
Your comment about HRAC says a lot about you. Quite pathetic. I never heard him say any of his previous stars (and there were so many) were the best ever.
Quite why you compare him in that respect to AOB is mind boggling, yes AOB is always saying such things but HRAC simply never did. If he said he had never seen a better horse than Frankel then he damn well meant it (and note the use of the word SEEN)
He could easily have put up much better times if his jockey had been harder on him, something that seems to have escaped you.
He won his races by margins such as 5,6,7,10 and 11 lengths - how many others can you name that CONSISTENTLY did that (not the odd performance like Harbinger for example).
I repeat, Timeform, the RP, the BHA Handicapper - ALL rated Frankel a superstar. I'd rather take their collective view over yours any day.
As for your latest comment about Najidi Storm , just grow up will you. It's obvious you have an agenda, let's leave it there.
But one little addendum if i may to show up your Najidi Storm comment, which sire does the following stat (we know you love stats) apply to i wonder ?
Sired 100 Group/Graded winners in a record time of 3144 days, ahead of Danehill, Deep Impact, Galileo and Dubawi
Frankel won 14 races , 10 of them Group Ones. In all but two of them he hammered the opposition. Without being extended.
Your comment about HRAC says a lot about you. Quite pathetic. I never heard him say any of his previous stars (and there were so many) were the best ever.
Quite why you compare him in that respect to AOB is mind boggling, yes AOB is always saying such things but HRAC simply never did. If he said he had never seen a better horse than Frankel then he damn well meant it (and note the use of the word SEEN)
He could easily have put up much better times if his jockey had been harder on him, something that seems to have escaped you.
He won his races by margins such as 5,6,7,10 and 11 lengths - how many others can you name that CONSISTENTLY did that (not the odd performance like Harbinger for example).
I repeat, Timeform, the RP, the BHA Handicapper - ALL rated Frankel a superstar. I'd rather take their collective view over yours any day.
As for your latest comment about Najidi Storm , just grow up will you. It's obvious you have an agenda, let's leave it there.
But one little addendum if i may to show up your Najidi Storm comment, which sire does the following stat (we know you love stats
) apply to i wonder ?Sired 100 Group/Graded winners in a record time of 3144 days, ahead of Danehill, Deep Impact, Galileo and Dubawi
To complain about his mark seems funny as he’s finished upsides a 10 year old who won a G2 last year and a G3 this year.
He was in receipt of 3lbs all easy for the handicapper through Dubai Future.
- - - -
Being top rated as Frankel was doesn’t make him the best horse for me, as said he never travelled and faced an aging Cirrus Des Aigles.
Goldikova achieved a lot more for me and took on all comers from different generations on different continents.
To take in the Queen Anne and still be in condition to run and win 3 Breeders Cups takes some doing and training.
He was in receipt of 3lbs all easy for the handicapper through Dubai Future.
- - - -
Being top rated as Frankel was doesn’t make him the best horse for me, as said he never travelled and faced an aging Cirrus Des Aigles.
Goldikova achieved a lot more for me and took on all comers from different generations on different continents.
To take in the Queen Anne and still be in condition to run and win 3 Breeders Cups takes some doing and training.
I've been following horse racing since the mid 60's. Anyone that doesn't think Frankel is the best mile/10f horse since then needs a new hobby...or at least stop coming on forums and talking sh1te.
kincsem 09 Sep 26 09:51
My guess is it would be an impossibility for a horse to win ten consecutive handicaps and stay in that class.
He would move to class 1 handicap, to Listed, and upwards.
ewe khan still ansa a hypothetical question surely?
My guess is it would be an impossibility for a horse to win ten consecutive handicaps and stay in that class.
He would move to class 1 handicap, to Listed, and upwards.
ewe khan still ansa a hypothetical question surely?
..Sir Henry said, quote..." Frankel was the best racehorse I've ever SEEN in my LIFETIME.......and he saw, and trained plenty of superstars
what else cud it do bar beat those in his races?
We may as well not bother considering rankings/ratings then Dela eh ?
btw Cirrus was only 6 when Frankel beat him in 2012 and he raced on for two more full seasons after that, winning several Group One's including the 2014 Coronation Cup.
After Frankel retired, Cirrus was the highest rated horse in the world at that time.
btw Cirrus was only 6 when Frankel beat him in 2012 and he raced on for two more full seasons after that, winning several Group One's including the 2014 Coronation Cup.
After Frankel retired, Cirrus was the highest rated horse in the world at that time.
Secretariat beat nowt in the Belmont..but it was good viewing
KIncsem - people readily underestimate just how good Excelebration was - he would've been champion miler in MOST years
as he was superior to your 'average' champion! That's a strange oxymoron but I'm sure you get the point
The Knight - I don't believe the Melbourne Cup was EVER gonna be a realistic target and said so last February after he
won at Southwell for reasons you mention - we've been strung along with this circus...with bull-rings through our noses
I also disagree with your pessimistic assessment of his future as there's plenty of life left in the old dog yet, so for once...I agree with Henderson!
Howard - these kids/journlists should stay in their lane with their airbags ready to deploy as they cannot
seriously try to educate us about anything from before 2000 - they're embarrassingly out of their depth!
It's just like those football fans who only quote stats since the Premier's inception.
.
as he was superior to your 'average' champion! That's a strange oxymoron but I'm sure you get the point
The Knight - I don't believe the Melbourne Cup was EVER gonna be a realistic target and said so last February after he
won at Southwell for reasons you mention - we've been strung along with this circus...with bull-rings through our noses
I also disagree with your pessimistic assessment of his future as there's plenty of life left in the old dog yet, so for once...I agree with Henderson!
Howard - these kids/journlists should stay in their lane with their airbags ready to deploy as they cannot
seriously try to educate us about anything from before 2000 - they're embarrassingly out of their depth!
It's just like those football fans who only quote stats since the Premier's inception.
.
Cirrus wasn’t the best of his generation, (nor was Goldikova) Vision DeTat was the better horse, Cirrus benefited from being kept in training and racing against bad older horses.
As did the likes of the Duke of Marmalade.
Whilst Cirrus was doing not a lot, Vision won the POW and went to Hong Kong and took the Vase, very few horses go there and beat them.
As did the likes of the Duke of Marmalade.
Whilst Cirrus was doing not a lot, Vision won the POW and went to Hong Kong and took the Vase, very few horses go there and beat them.
And Dixie I might mention them but ratings aren’t the be all and end all for me, racing is on a world stage nowdays and the best for me should travel, as Black Cav did.
Cirrus and Vision could hardly have met as three year olds could they given Cirrus was born a year later.
And there's a very good reason why Cirrus could not prove himself "the best of his generation" by winning the likes of a Guineas, Derby or even Arc.....
Vision raced against plenty of poor rivals as well and although he won some top races he was stuffed in a number of others.
And there's a very good reason why Cirrus could not prove himself "the best of his generation" by winning the likes of a Guineas, Derby or even Arc.....
Vision raced against plenty of poor rivals as well and although he won some top races he was stuffed in a number of others.
That’s right they were a year apart but Cirrus was exposed and not the best of his age group.
Won no races as a 2 year old
6 from 17 at 3 and was put in his place by Vision when they met,
The great Frankel beat him, was fairly exposed by the age of 6.
PRIX GONTAUT-BIRON HONG KONG JOCKEY CLUB
1 VISION D'ETAT
2 BUDAI
3 CIRRUS DES AIGLES
Vision was just one example of horses that toyed with Cirrus and people didn’t even rate him highly ratings wise.
Won no races as a 2 year old
6 from 17 at 3 and was put in his place by Vision when they met,
The great Frankel beat him, was fairly exposed by the age of 6.
PRIX GONTAUT-BIRON HONG KONG JOCKEY CLUB
1 VISION D'ETAT
2 BUDAI
3 CIRRUS DES AIGLES
Vision was just one example of horses that toyed with Cirrus and people didn’t even rate him highly ratings wise.
The fastest horse ever (that is what Timeform rated Frankel) was this fast
Sussex Stakes - 16th fastest time
2000 Guineas - 31st fastest (excusable as into a headwind)
St James Palace Stakes - 18th fastest
Lockinge Stakes - 27th fastest
QE II - 8th fastest
Queen Anne - 9th fastest
Champion Stakes - 10th fastest in the 15 years at Accot
Was he always running on soft/heavy or leading a procession of low-grade horses?
Excelebration a champion in any other year?
Prix du Moulin - 24th fastest time
Prix Jacques le Marois - 9th fastest time (41 races)
Queen Elizabeth II - 34th fastest time
Sussex Stakes - 16th fastest time
2000 Guineas - 31st fastest (excusable as into a headwind)
St James Palace Stakes - 18th fastest
Lockinge Stakes - 27th fastest
QE II - 8th fastest
Queen Anne - 9th fastest
Champion Stakes - 10th fastest in the 15 years at Accot
Was he always running on soft/heavy or leading a procession of low-grade horses?
Excelebration a champion in any other year?
Prix du Moulin - 24th fastest time
Prix Jacques le Marois - 9th fastest time (41 races)
Queen Elizabeth II - 34th fastest time
He could easily have put up much better times if his jockey had been harder on him, something that seems to have escaped you.
Prove it. You can't can you? You can have an opinion that you think is nailed on (so can 99% of the population) but thats it. If only he had raced once out of his comfort zone and done it then there would be little debate, he didn't so he we are.
Prove it. You can't can you? You can have an opinion that you think is nailed on (so can 99% of the population) but thats it. If only he had raced once out of his comfort zone and done it then there would be little debate, he didn't so he we are.
Re Frankel, you don't have to pour over endless statistics and times you just have to watch what happened when Queally pressed the button in the Queen Anne 2012, that tells you all you need to know about what you were witnessing.
I remember when he asked him in the St James and did push him out, Cecil had a brick.
Well managed and great training but he beat little and never took himself out of the comfort zone.
Well managed and great training but he beat little and never took himself out of the comfort zone.
slaughtered ev gr1 miler there was for 2yrs .
slaughtered ev gr1 miler there was for 2yrs .
kincsem - you seem to be confused as to how Timeform ratings are achieved. They assess everything to do with a horse's form, not times.
Nobody has said Frankel was the FASTEST ever have they ? That would doubtless be a sprinter who would hold that accolade. Although he did clock 42mph in the last furlong of his jaw dropping Queen Anne win
.
Why should Frankel have to have gone abroad to race ?
If Frankel was only beating second raters then why didn't the world's so called greatest milers want to come over here and lower the colours of the wonder horse ?
Answer -because they knew he was unbeatable.
As duffy states, trust the evidence of your own eyes. That Queen Anne performance was his best of a series of scintillating wins.
Only the very best can win like that race after race.
spyker - all the proof you need is to look at his races, how many times was he all out ?
Nobody has said Frankel was the FASTEST ever have they ? That would doubtless be a sprinter who would hold that accolade. Although he did clock 42mph in the last furlong of his jaw dropping Queen Anne win
.Why should Frankel have to have gone abroad to race ?
If Frankel was only beating second raters then why didn't the world's so called greatest milers want to come over here and lower the colours of the wonder horse ?
Answer -because they knew he was unbeatable.
As duffy states, trust the evidence of your own eyes. That Queen Anne performance was his best of a series of scintillating wins.
Only the very best can win like that race after race.
spyker - all the proof you need is to look at his races, how many times was he all out ?
As duffy states, trust the evidence of your own eyes. That Queen Anne performance was his best of a series of scintillating wins.
Against?
List who he beat.
If Frankel was only beating second raters then why didn't the world's so called greatest milers want to come over here and lower the colours of the wonder horse ?
Answer -because they knew he was unbeatable.
The best were scared?
Come on, they were scared every day with this horse, this bit, that bit, change that, settle him…
Against?
List who he beat.
If Frankel was only beating second raters then why didn't the world's so called greatest milers want to come over here and lower the colours of the wonder horse ?
Answer -because they knew he was unbeatable.
The best were scared?
Come on, they were scared every day with this horse, this bit, that bit, change that, settle him…
List who he beat ?
Every
Horse
That
Lined
Up
Against
Him
HTH
Every
Horse
That
Lined
Up
Against
Him
HTH
Rico-Dangleflaps 09 Sep 26 09:37
if frankel had only ran in 10 class 2 h/caps against 90 ish rated horses and won each race at an average of 30L what OR would you give him?
30 x 1.5 = 135OR.
if frankel had only ran in 10 class 2 h/caps against 90 ish rated horses and won each race at an average of 30L what OR would you give him?
30 x 1.5 = 135OR.
Ratings aren’t the be all and end all, they can also be wrong or raised for other reasons.
Before the Juddmonte I’d said on the Arc thread that Constitution River had been given the mark after the Eclipse that would place him in an Arc even see him win it.
After the Jockey Club he was rated 52.5 by the French handicapper.
After the Eclipse where he beat the same horse again A Boy Named Susie he was shunted upwards to 56!
That to me was an over exaggeration aimed at boosting the profile of the Prix DubJockey Club.
I’m wary of horses that are given high ratings for beating the same opponents over and over.
When you consider that Daryz is on 57.5 I think it makes his mark even more of an inflated rating where other outside factors or biases come into play.
Before the Juddmonte I’d said on the Arc thread that Constitution River had been given the mark after the Eclipse that would place him in an Arc even see him win it.
After the Jockey Club he was rated 52.5 by the French handicapper.
After the Eclipse where he beat the same horse again A Boy Named Susie he was shunted upwards to 56!
That to me was an over exaggeration aimed at boosting the profile of the Prix DubJockey Club.
I’m wary of horses that are given high ratings for beating the same opponents over and over.
When you consider that Daryz is on 57.5 I think it makes his mark even more of an inflated rating where other outside factors or biases come into play.
I’ve renamed the race above to give it more umph! Prix Dub Jockey Club!
DixieDean60
kincsem - you seem to be confused as to how Timeform ratings are achieved. - How droll. I am confused. I have more than 50 years of Timeform annuals and can read how the produce their ratings (even wind is a factor).
They assess everything to do with a horse's form, not times. - So a slow overall time merits a high rating? Does a horse that jogs along (or has a pacemaker in every race like Bullet Train) and then outpaces the field deserves a top rating?
Nobody has said Frankel was the FASTEST ever have they ? - Timeform did by giving him a 147 rating so I assume that means they rate him the fastest. "The Timeform Rating of a horse is simply the merit of the horse expressed in pounds and is arrived at by careful examination of its running against other horses".
I assume "its running against other horses" does not mean it has a nice stride, or is well behaved, but that it is fast enough to finish in front i.e. has superior speed.
I know a poor horse running on firm ground, with a following wind, on a downhill course, sheltered off the pace in the pack, will run very fast. That is not a classy performance.
My point, (other than pointing out that in France a good performance does not result in an increase in rating by the handicapper) made many times above, is Frankel only once in 14 races ran a fast time, raced against a small group of horses of questionable merit, never raced in Ireland, France, or the USA to be tested against other horses beyond the average animals he beat routinely.
That would doubtless be a sprinter who would hold that accolade. Although he did clock 42mph in the last furlong of his jaw dropping Queen Anne win. - Thanks from dropping in that time to show Frankel's class at a mile but my jaw did not drop when I read that. Not impressive. My handicapper (sold two weeks ago to race in Australia) hit 70.06 kms/hr (43.53 mph) in the last 200 metres in his last race at Deauville (1600 metres, finished 3rd, came from 20th place) according to the Statistiques Tracking.
How about giving the mph in the last furlong of Excelebration (beaten 11 lengths in that Queen Anne). "Everything is learned by comparison". Did Frankel put up a top performance or did he beat trees?
kincsem - you seem to be confused as to how Timeform ratings are achieved. - How droll. I am confused. I have more than 50 years of Timeform annuals and can read how the produce their ratings (even wind is a factor).
They assess everything to do with a horse's form, not times. - So a slow overall time merits a high rating? Does a horse that jogs along (or has a pacemaker in every race like Bullet Train) and then outpaces the field deserves a top rating?
Nobody has said Frankel was the FASTEST ever have they ? - Timeform did by giving him a 147 rating so I assume that means they rate him the fastest. "The Timeform Rating of a horse is simply the merit of the horse expressed in pounds and is arrived at by careful examination of its running against other horses".
I assume "its running against other horses" does not mean it has a nice stride, or is well behaved, but that it is fast enough to finish in front i.e. has superior speed.
I know a poor horse running on firm ground, with a following wind, on a downhill course, sheltered off the pace in the pack, will run very fast. That is not a classy performance.
My point, (other than pointing out that in France a good performance does not result in an increase in rating by the handicapper) made many times above, is Frankel only once in 14 races ran a fast time, raced against a small group of horses of questionable merit, never raced in Ireland, France, or the USA to be tested against other horses beyond the average animals he beat routinely.
That would doubtless be a sprinter who would hold that accolade. Although he did clock 42mph in the last furlong of his jaw dropping Queen Anne win. - Thanks from dropping in that time to show Frankel's class at a mile but my jaw did not drop when I read that. Not impressive. My handicapper (sold two weeks ago to race in Australia) hit 70.06 kms/hr (43.53 mph) in the last 200 metres in his last race at Deauville (1600 metres, finished 3rd, came from 20th place) according to the Statistiques Tracking.
How about giving the mph in the last furlong of Excelebration (beaten 11 lengths in that Queen Anne). "Everything is learned by comparison". Did Frankel put up a top performance or did he beat trees?
Re Frankel, you don't have to pour over endless statistics and times you just have to watch what happened when Queally pressed the button in the Queen Anne 2012, that tells you all you need to know about what you were witnessing.
DARYZ
M. BARZALONA
70,70 kms
The quickest time set by horses on Arc Trials day over that distance
M. BARZALONA
70,70 kms
The quickest time set by horses on Arc Trials day over that distance
“endless statistics and times”
But you can look at what was beaten.
But you can look at what was beaten.
https://stallions.juddmonte.com/stallion/frankel
The most successful active sire of Northern Hemisphere Classic winners (14) including ....... 2021 Australian Oaks winner Hungry Heart
Has Australia moved to the Northern Hemisphere?
Beware of "stats" from stallion owners and bloodstock agents.
The most successful active sire of Northern Hemisphere Classic winners (14) including ....... 2021 Australian Oaks winner Hungry Heart
Has Australia moved to the Northern Hemisphere?
Beware of "stats" from stallion owners and bloodstock agents.
kincsem - ok you are obviously a know all who loves to go against the crowd, waffles about stats when it suits and ignores them when it doesn't.
Frankel did step up from a mile of course for his last two races where he stuffed winners of races such as the Coronation Cup, Eclipse, King George, Breeders Cup Turf etc. but no doubt you will come back and say those winners were basically selling platers in disguise.
You clearly have an agenda against Frankel for some bizarre reason, a horse that ignited much needed interest in the game and got the sport national headlines. I have plenty of friends/family who have little interest in racing but they had ALL heard of Frankel. But all you want to do is crab his performances. I would take the opinion of Timeform, the BHA handicapper, RP and many other experts over yours if that's ok.
All very strange from someone who seemingly takes a soubriquet from a historic horse from the 19th century who none of us could ever watch in action and we have to rely on a mixture of recorded/anecdotal reporting to judge how good she was. Whereas with Frankel we have all the evidence before our eyes and no horse could have been more visually impressive race after race, many have done it once or twice but he did it virtually every time.
Stating a horse is the fastest ever is simply NOT the same as saying a horse is the best ever. There is no mention of speed by Timeform in your quotation marks above so i would have thought you would have realised that, especially after reading 50 annuals.
Frankel did step up from a mile of course for his last two races where he stuffed winners of races such as the Coronation Cup, Eclipse, King George, Breeders Cup Turf etc. but no doubt you will come back and say those winners were basically selling platers in disguise.
You clearly have an agenda against Frankel for some bizarre reason, a horse that ignited much needed interest in the game and got the sport national headlines. I have plenty of friends/family who have little interest in racing but they had ALL heard of Frankel
. But all you want to do is crab his performances. I would take the opinion of Timeform, the BHA handicapper, RP and many other experts over yours if that's ok.All very strange from someone who seemingly takes a soubriquet from a historic horse from the 19th century who none of us could ever watch in action and we have to rely on a mixture of recorded/anecdotal reporting to judge how good she was. Whereas with Frankel we have all the evidence before our eyes and no horse could have been more visually impressive race after race, many have done it once or twice but he did it virtually every time.
Stating a horse is the fastest ever is simply NOT the same as saying a horse is the best ever. There is no mention of speed by Timeform in your quotation marks above so i would have thought you would have realised that, especially after reading 50 annuals.
"Re Frankel, you don't have to pour over endless statistics and times you just have to watch what happened when Queally pressed the button in the Queen Anne 2012, that tells you all you need to know about what you were witnessing."
Yeah Segal said recently "I can spot a good horse just by looking at it. I don't need any numbers."
Yeah Segal said recently "I can spot a good horse just by looking at it. I don't need any numbers."
Delashay 09 Sep 26 19:36
As duffy states, trust the evidence of your own eyes. That Queen Anne performance was his best of a series of scintillating wins.
Against?
List who he beat.
the gr1 opposition at that time ya silleekhúnt.
As duffy states, trust the evidence of your own eyes. That Queen Anne performance was his best of a series of scintillating wins.
Against?
List who he beat.
the gr1 opposition at that time ya silleekhúnt.
Sep 10, 2026 -- 1:33PM, howard wrote:
what about his own betting, we don't know
fantasy prices across the board not available so unlikely to be better
More hot air from Hendo. The horse could go for the Bahrain Cup on Nov 13. Dream on Hendo!
Imp - I'm embarrassed to recall that I used to regularly defend him and thought he was an intelligent, honest & straight man.
He's humialted me (re- my long-held beliefs) with his predictable stupidity as I can't lie and I feel so gullible
Now I know how you béllends who repeatedly rolled up your sleeves and queued up for those jábs feel
He's humialted me (re- my long-held beliefs) with his predictable stupidity as I can't lie and I feel so gullible
Now I know how you béllends who repeatedly rolled up your sleeves and queued up for those jábs feel
One thing you can guarantee is that NH is a damn sight more intelligent than the last 3 posters, but then so is a yard broom. All he has done is mention two possible races on turf over a distance which should suit better than those he has contested to date and one is thinking outside the box.
That is probably beyond the wit of Impossible and Co and why they are confined to spouting rubbish on here and communicating with like minded souls who would struggle to train a climbing plant up a trellis. Herbie might have the excuse of alcohol, induced reduced inhibition being on here when everyone else is sound asleep but his final comment would indicate he is just ignorant. Early for me tbh but a good time to be fishing for prices when the books are still half asleep.
That is probably beyond the wit of Impossible and Co and why they are confined to spouting rubbish on here and communicating with like minded souls who would struggle to train a climbing plant up a trellis. Herbie might have the excuse of alcohol, induced reduced inhibition being on here when everyone else is sound asleep but his final comment would indicate he is just ignorant. Early for me tbh but a good time to be fishing for prices when the books are still half asleep.
https://bahrainturfclub.com/racing/bahrain-international-trophy
2000 metres (10f), TURF (outer track).
Ahhh yes looks a great idea!
2000 metres (10f), TURF (outer track).
Ahhh yes looks a great idea!
As stated he is "Thinking outside the box" Delashay, you should try it yourself sometime although it may be difficult to C & P.
Btw just realised your cut and paste has let you down, wrong race , the new race is 1m 6f!! HTH
Thanks for the advice General to General speaking.
To get up looking for prices of those backed and commenting on other members whilst not giving your thoughts on his chances in ANY race out there is quite a sign of what you’re about.
As for thinking outside the box I’ve proved that I do that not only in my art but my betting also, as my Dela Derby Day Double showed
To get up looking for prices of those backed and commenting on other members whilst not giving your thoughts on his chances in ANY race out there is quite a sign of what you’re about.
As for thinking outside the box I’ve proved that I do that not only in my art but my betting also, as my Dela Derby Day Double showed
Delashay, once in a blue moon do I look on here early in the morning, especially at anything you or your cohorts have posted nor do I make a habit of juvenile and snide comments like yourself. I have given more opinions than you ever will and without the need to after time like your imaginary Derby Day double.
Most have forgotten more than you will ever learn going by the majority of your threads and posts. hth
Most have forgotten more than you will ever learn going by the majority of your threads and posts. hth
That about sums you up, little wonder you have to cut and paste as original thoughts from you would be on a par with a child just learning to speak, btw 4lb and 3.5lb too small for trout? lol
Seems you can’t tell the difference between original thinking and when quotes are clearly shared and source given!
4lb with mud in the net, stop lying to yourself! How were the bones with the bait fish?
That was Pike bait if ever I see it and I with I hadn’t as your thumb was brown as Ringo’s ring finger!
4lb with mud in the net, stop lying to yourself! How were the bones with the bait fish?
That was Pike bait if ever I see it and I with I hadn’t as your thumb was brown as Ringo’s ring finger!
Envy seems to make you seethe Delashay, do you want a photo of them next to the rod to give you scale, you being the self acclaimed artist should be able to see even what Ray Charles would be able to?
Seethe? Me?
Says the ex soldier who learnt nothing about conflict and actively goes seeking it! WAP!
Says the ex soldier who learnt nothing about conflict and actively goes seeking it! WAP!
Give no view as to whether the one with a nose bleed will get the cut he needs in Bahrain and what race he’ll warm up in for them to have a right old jolly up!
The adventure would represent a new frontier for his trainer.
"We've said we might go international at some stage," Henderson said. "There's a $400,000 race in Bahrain, so we're looking at that. I've never been to Dubai, Bahrain or anywhere near it!"
Go Chemical but take your towel and sunscreen, leave the nag be in a field.
The adventure would represent a new frontier for his trainer.
"We've said we might go international at some stage," Henderson said. "There's a $400,000 race in Bahrain, so we're looking at that. I've never been to Dubai, Bahrain or anywhere near it!"
Go Chemical but take your towel and sunscreen, leave the nag be in a field.
Does anyone realise that the fifth classic of the year in the UK has just been won by two and a half lengths by Highwayman who was rated 101, yes that's right the ST Leger has just been won by a horse rated 7lbs lower than Constitution Hill and whom in many handicaps would not be top weight........
Delashay, how does pointing out facts that prove you are wrong constitute looking for conflict? You should grow up or a pair and accept that the Forum is not your own platform to spread misinformation, difficult as that may be for you.
ManP I’m sure that the handicapper has regrets about that rating as he clearly was above that when actually trying!
Btw NH has already named two races he may take in before/if going to Bahrain which was pointed out earlier and you should have seen if you had read the post before flying into a juvenile tantrum!! Cutting and pasting the wrong race and being sarcastic about the trainer sums you up though.
I didn’t read all the article because it’s laughable and the bleeder should like you be put out to grass!
I never mentioned the article Delashay, it was in my post you seem to think was to invite conflict!! hth
And before you go give your thumbnail a clean you dirty twerp!
Misinformation isn’t my thing, a heads up is because I’m a decent bloke.
Misinformation isn’t my thing, a heads up is because I’m a decent bloke.
Who told you you were a decent bloke, were you looking in a mirror?
Back in March ManP I’d pointed out that the horse that Hill ran upsides had won a G2 out East! Now Chemical is, “plotting” his way out there!
Delashay • March 26, 2026 10:03 AM GMT
Dubai Future win the Dubai Gold Cup G2 last year at the age of 9 He beat Double Major a multiple group winner!
Delashay • March 26, 2026 10:03 AM GMT
Dubai Future win the Dubai Gold Cup G2 last year at the age of 9 He beat Double Major a multiple group winner!
Del, the handicapper got it 16lb wrong, now rated 117
CagliariG 16 Sep 26 11:55
That about sums you up, little wonder you have to cut and paste as original thoughts from you would be on a par with a child just learning to speak
eye konn kerr with tobymugs.
That about sums you up, little wonder you have to cut and paste as original thoughts from you would be on a par with a child just learning to speak
eye konn kerr with tobymugs.
ManP yes he got it terribly wrong due to how the horse was messed around with. Normally winning a Leger like that they’d be saying Arc bid next?
Seems they didn’t do that because the unfathomable amount of progress made by the horse is slightly embarrassing and those are questions that racing doesn’t want to face.
As for me copying anyone that isn’t so, I’m able to think for myself and have never willingly posted any mis information ever.
Seems they didn’t do that because the unfathomable amount of progress made by the horse is slightly embarrassing and those are questions that racing doesn’t want to face.
As for me copying anyone that isn’t so, I’m able to think for myself and have never willingly posted any mis information ever.
Herbie, it appears you are incapable of a rational debate without resorting to writing the Bayeux Tapestry in longhand and emphasising how juvenile you are. HTH
You hurled the first insults - I retailiated with a superior riposte
That 'juvenile' business is called humour mate...and it's AWOL in spades on here.
I would've assumed you were one of the ones I mentioned who were capable of responding
to that Henderson fiasco with a reltively informed opinion but as with the vast majority...
it's nothing but crickets & tumbleweed - looks like I misjudged you.
I really can't understand you so called enthusiasts, being terrified to provide anonymous views when
you've obviously got plenty to say and as I mentioned...I really wouldn't give a fcúk if that
moderatúrd took umbrage and banned me as there's nothing worthwhile on here - the place is moribund
That 'juvenile' business is called humour mate...and it's AWOL in spades on here.
I would've assumed you were one of the ones I mentioned who were capable of responding
to that Henderson fiasco with a reltively informed opinion but as with the vast majority...
it's nothing but crickets & tumbleweed - looks like I misjudged you.
I really can't understand you so called enthusiasts, being terrified to provide anonymous views when
you've obviously got plenty to say and as I mentioned...I really wouldn't give a fcúk if that
moderatúrd took umbrage and banned me as there's nothing worthwhile on here - the place is moribund
2026 sees tobyliarcalgarymugs installed as an odds on favourite for Worlds biggest liar Competition after telling the BF forum some mighty unproven stories.
claimed he laid layed COT for 155k or more but came out with an 11k profit.
You own a betting system valued at 600k +
but finished in last place in a Div2 tipping comp.
and caught 2 huge tuna that coincidentally the same fish were caught by someone else.
my mother left £30,000,000 in her will.
LEST WE FORGET
claimed he laid layed COT for 155k or more but came out with an 11k profit.
You own a betting system valued at 600k +
but finished in last place in a Div2 tipping comp.
and caught 2 huge tuna that coincidentally the same fish were caught by someone else.
my mother left £30,000,000 in her will.
LEST WE FORGET
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