Welcome to Live View – Take the tour to learn more
Start Tour
There is currently 1 person viewing this thread.
Alex Bird has 10K on Habibti in The 1984 July Cup - the year CHIEF SINGER won. Interesting short video interview with Tommo.
https://youtu.be/B5mfeNb_r6E?si=7JLje-i6oMQRakMG
https://youtu.be/B5mfeNb_r6E?si=7JLje-i6oMQRakMG
Show More
Bird, reputedly, lost even more - 10 times more - on Dancing Brave, two years later, in the Breeders Cup.
The British Bookies did not get it, though, as Alex travelled to America to get on with the big Casino Sportsbooks.
The British Bookies did not get it, though, as Alex travelled to America to get on with the big Casino Sportsbooks.
Was reported as 250k in sporting press onlooker. I had £20 at 1/2. Haven't done much odds-on betting since 
Dunlop said Habibti wasn't the same horse in '84. He was right.
I read his book. Says he made loads standing at the winning post betting on photo finishes. That's all I can remember from reading it.
Patrick Veitch spoke about Alex Bird in his book:-
For me, Bird’s reputation was somewhat undermined by the fact that much of his winnings came from betting on the results of photo-finishes. Two people subsequently told me that he had a source signalling from the judge’s box, which may help explain his astonishing success in that sphere.
...he was an early convert to the benefits of race-time analysis, particularly for two-year-olds, and profited accordingly.
He also revealed that he made only 1.83 per cent profit on his turnover, although he had to cut right back and change his methods once betting tax of four per cent was introduced. At one time he was turning over in excess of £2 million a year, which was a lot of money 40 years ago or more, but betting tax curtailed his activities to such an extent that his turnover did not exceed £250,000 in later years.
Above from PV book.
Low profit rate but I think he was offsetting expenses like car and plane to racecourses. It's been decades since I read the book which was quite dull.
Was it Bird or Bull who included 10 Golden Rules, all of which were systematically broken in their own betting?
For me, Bird’s reputation was somewhat undermined by the fact that much of his winnings came from betting on the results of photo-finishes. Two people subsequently told me that he had a source signalling from the judge’s box, which may help explain his astonishing success in that sphere.
...he was an early convert to the benefits of race-time analysis, particularly for two-year-olds, and profited accordingly.
He also revealed that he made only 1.83 per cent profit on his turnover, although he had to cut right back and change his methods once betting tax of four per cent was introduced. At one time he was turning over in excess of £2 million a year, which was a lot of money 40 years ago or more, but betting tax curtailed his activities to such an extent that his turnover did not exceed £250,000 in later years.
Above from PV book.
Low profit rate but I think he was offsetting expenses like car and plane to racecourses. It's been decades since I read the book which was quite dull.
Was it Bird or Bull who included 10 Golden Rules, all of which were systematically broken in their own betting?
Looking at that 1.83% of £2m is only £36,600, a fair bit back in the day I suppose?
From the Telegraph:
"They think it’s all over.” Commentator Kenneth Wolstenholme’s remark at the end of the 1966 World Cup Final has passed into popular culture as a widely used expression. But I am amazed how little investors learn from the world of sport, which has a lot to teach us.
In managing the Fundsmith Equity fund we seek to invest in companies that have a long history of success in a few sectors such as consumer staples, medical equipment and franchising.
People often say to us: “Oh, you try to pick winners.” The reality is that we don’t seek to predict who will win, but rather to bet on a company that has already won.
To explain what we seek to do I would turn to the world of horse racing. As a professional gambler, Alex Bird made a fortune betting on photo finishes. You can read about it in his autobiography, Alex Bird: the Life and Secrets of a Professional Punter.
In Bird’s day, photo finishes were not digital and it took several minutes to develop the film and view the outcome, during which time bookmakers continued laying odds on the outcome.
Bird realised that they were breaking one of the fundamental rules of bookmaking – never make odds on an event that has already occurred, as someone who knows the outcome can take you to the cleaners.
Allegedly, bookmakers in the vicinity of St James’s Palace learnt this the hard way when they laid odds on the name of royal babies while the Queen Mother, who liked a bet, was still alive.
Bird noticed that when horses crossed the line together, the horse on the far side often appeared to have won. What he had figured out was “parallax”: the difference in the apparent position of an object viewed along two different lines of sight.
He discovered a simple technique to exploit this. By standing as near to the winning post as possible, closing one eye and creating an imaginary line across the track at the finishing line, he could tell which horse had actually won. Using this simple system for the next 20 years he made himself a fortune, with a reported 500 consecutive successful bets.
This can happen in the financial world. When Warren Buffett announced that after a career investing only in the US he had bought a British share for the first time, the bookmakers made odds on which share it was. This was dangerous given that a number of intermediaries, such as Berkshire Hathaway’s brokers, already knew.
What has all this got to do with investment? At Fundsmith we do not seek to pick winners in the sense that most punters do, which is studying form, viewing the horses in the ring and then betting.
We seek to emulate Alex Bird – we wait until we know who has won and then wait for the bookmakers to offer us odds against them winning. In our case there are not bookmakers in the sense of a racecourse, we are talking about the market mispricing shares.
There are some companies where we do not need to speculate on whether they have won in the sense of being successful and dominating certain product categories. Nestlé is the world’s largest food and beverage company and has been in business for 148 years with only one loss.
Colgate Palmolive has 45pc of the world market for toothpaste and 35pc for toothbrushes. It is also the leader in liquid soap and third in pet food. We simply need to wait until the market misprices these shares in order to get our chance to bet on a certain winner.
This can happen for many reasons, for example when a panic occurs such as the whole market experienced in 2008 2009. Or it can come about because investors sensing recovery dump known winners and turn to the shares that rise most in such circumstances, such as cyclicals, financials, recovery stocks and highly indebted companies.
It may entail particular concerns about the product, such as cola drinks or micro beads in toothpaste, or a milk powder safety scare. Or currency moves such as the recent rise in the Swiss franc, which sent Nestlé’s shares down by more than 10pc even though 98pc of its business is outside Switzerland.
Situations such as these can all provide chances to invest by betting on a certain winner if they drive the valuation to a level which does not reflect these companies’ sustainable returns.
"They think it’s all over.” Commentator Kenneth Wolstenholme’s remark at the end of the 1966 World Cup Final has passed into popular culture as a widely used expression. But I am amazed how little investors learn from the world of sport, which has a lot to teach us.
In managing the Fundsmith Equity fund we seek to invest in companies that have a long history of success in a few sectors such as consumer staples, medical equipment and franchising.
People often say to us: “Oh, you try to pick winners.” The reality is that we don’t seek to predict who will win, but rather to bet on a company that has already won.
To explain what we seek to do I would turn to the world of horse racing. As a professional gambler, Alex Bird made a fortune betting on photo finishes. You can read about it in his autobiography, Alex Bird: the Life and Secrets of a Professional Punter.
In Bird’s day, photo finishes were not digital and it took several minutes to develop the film and view the outcome, during which time bookmakers continued laying odds on the outcome.
Bird realised that they were breaking one of the fundamental rules of bookmaking – never make odds on an event that has already occurred, as someone who knows the outcome can take you to the cleaners.
Allegedly, bookmakers in the vicinity of St James’s Palace learnt this the hard way when they laid odds on the name of royal babies while the Queen Mother, who liked a bet, was still alive.
Bird noticed that when horses crossed the line together, the horse on the far side often appeared to have won. What he had figured out was “parallax”: the difference in the apparent position of an object viewed along two different lines of sight.
He discovered a simple technique to exploit this. By standing as near to the winning post as possible, closing one eye and creating an imaginary line across the track at the finishing line, he could tell which horse had actually won. Using this simple system for the next 20 years he made himself a fortune, with a reported 500 consecutive successful bets.
This can happen in the financial world. When Warren Buffett announced that after a career investing only in the US he had bought a British share for the first time, the bookmakers made odds on which share it was. This was dangerous given that a number of intermediaries, such as Berkshire Hathaway’s brokers, already knew.
What has all this got to do with investment? At Fundsmith we do not seek to pick winners in the sense that most punters do, which is studying form, viewing the horses in the ring and then betting.
We seek to emulate Alex Bird – we wait until we know who has won and then wait for the bookmakers to offer us odds against them winning. In our case there are not bookmakers in the sense of a racecourse, we are talking about the market mispricing shares.
There are some companies where we do not need to speculate on whether they have won in the sense of being successful and dominating certain product categories. Nestlé is the world’s largest food and beverage company and has been in business for 148 years with only one loss.
Colgate Palmolive has 45pc of the world market for toothpaste and 35pc for toothbrushes. It is also the leader in liquid soap and third in pet food. We simply need to wait until the market misprices these shares in order to get our chance to bet on a certain winner.
This can happen for many reasons, for example when a panic occurs such as the whole market experienced in 2008 2009. Or it can come about because investors sensing recovery dump known winners and turn to the shares that rise most in such circumstances, such as cyclicals, financials, recovery stocks and highly indebted companies.
It may entail particular concerns about the product, such as cola drinks or micro beads in toothpaste, or a milk powder safety scare. Or currency moves such as the recent rise in the Swiss franc, which sent Nestlé’s shares down by more than 10pc even though 98pc of its business is outside Switzerland.
Situations such as these can all provide chances to invest by betting on a certain winner if they drive the valuation to a level which does not reflect these companies’ sustainable returns.
Ramruma -
I wouldnt take too much notice of anything that Patric Veitch says, anything that makes sense he's stolen it from someone else and anything of his own is total rubbish. In that same book he told you about 'the best laying system ever' simply lay all of SC Williams runners - result is that any one who followed that advice in 2023 would be more than 300 points worse off.
I wouldnt take too much notice of anything that Patric Veitch says, anything that makes sense he's stolen it from someone else and anything of his own is total rubbish. In that same book he told you about 'the best laying system ever' simply lay all of SC Williams runners - result is that any one who followed that advice in 2023 would be more than 300 points worse off.
Tiger Tiger -- Fundsmith holds my savings, largely because I recognised Terry Smith's name from his book on the accounting tricks companies use. (There was a joke at the time that the boss calls in his chief accountant and says, "if we're using more than six of these tricks, you're fired".
"But if we're using less than three, you're also fired."
Shame because the last couple of years have not been kind. Maybe I should have stuck it all in crypto, except knowing my luck I'd have chosen Donald Trump's bitcoin knock-off that has lost a fortune for all his investors bar him.
"But if we're using less than three, you're also fired."
Shame because the last couple of years have not been kind. Maybe I should have stuck it all in crypto, except knowing my luck I'd have chosen Donald Trump's bitcoin knock-off that has lost a fortune for all his investors bar him.
Tiger Tiger, the trouble with Veitch as author and interviewee is he is so paranoid about giving away his edge that he mostly talks in riddles and says nothing of note.
Asking Veitch what the time is would come with risks
"the trouble with Veitch as author and interviewee is he is so paranoid about giving away his edge that he mostly talks in riddles and says nothing of note."
When he started his tipping line under the name 'The Professional' he done very well with that. First started it while studying at Trinity College, Cambridge. First of all a phone service then a premium-rate service, with a Mainline and Update line, and gave A/B rated advices. Clever operator.
When he started his tipping line under the name 'The Professional' he done very well with that. First started it while studying at Trinity College, Cambridge. First of all a phone service then a premium-rate service, with a Mainline and Update line, and gave A/B rated advices. Clever operator.
A " clever operator" who wouldn't help anybody but himself
formoftheace • August 25, 2026 8:44 PM BST
Terrible thing jealousy tbh.
The irony of the Two Bobbers comments
Terrible thing jealousy tbh.
The irony of the Two Bobbers comments
Aceform has already stated that it is The Final Fling,loony leif.
Who are we to doubt his words
Who are we to doubt his words
Ought to get you another 5k posts though.
Keep you busy given this forum is all you have, seemingly.
Keep you busy given this forum is all you have, seemingly.
Tel Del and others,
As a mater of interest, Veitch did not start 'The Professional' tipping line.
It was started by BT who advertised for people with horse racing knowledge to contact them about an opportunity and send in a written piece about the sport.
I responded and sent in a good article about betting psychology. The guy wo was setting up the service put me on the shortlist and phoned me for a telephone intwerview.
At the time I was a mainframe computer programmer for NatWest and this guy basically told me that I would be mad to give up all the benefits of that job (5% mortgage, cheap loans, profit sharing, good salary etc etc) to be employed by BT, basically, as a tipster.
He also added that he was only phoning me and two others for interview as back up because he already had his number one candidate lined up. That was Veitch.
At the end of the call he asked me if I still wanted to be 'in the running' but his points about what I already had in terms of a career were well made and I dropped out.
Veitch went on to land the role and then onto much more in his career.
BUT, today he just talks nonsesne most of the time. As someone else so rightly said earlier, he is so anxous not to give away his perceived secrets he puts out over-complex stuff that anyone with a good brain and a bit of esperience has already worked out!
That said, he seems to have made a good living from horse racing so good luck to him!
As a mater of interest, Veitch did not start 'The Professional' tipping line.
It was started by BT who advertised for people with horse racing knowledge to contact them about an opportunity and send in a written piece about the sport.
I responded and sent in a good article about betting psychology. The guy wo was setting up the service put me on the shortlist and phoned me for a telephone intwerview.
At the time I was a mainframe computer programmer for NatWest and this guy basically told me that I would be mad to give up all the benefits of that job (5% mortgage, cheap loans, profit sharing, good salary etc etc) to be employed by BT, basically, as a tipster.
He also added that he was only phoning me and two others for interview as back up because he already had his number one candidate lined up. That was Veitch.
At the end of the call he asked me if I still wanted to be 'in the running' but his points about what I already had in terms of a career were well made and I dropped out.
Veitch went on to land the role and then onto much more in his career.
BUT, today he just talks nonsesne most of the time. As someone else so rightly said earlier, he is so anxous not to give away his perceived secrets he puts out over-complex stuff that anyone with a good brain and a bit of esperience has already worked out!
That said, he seems to have made a good living from horse racing so good luck to him!
There was surely no need to give up a job. The lines were recorded message one or two a day. Maybe just trying to make your "failure " less painful 
Vietch also had a female friend who once worked at ITV which sounded good on the phone….
owning a horse paying a trainer to run it down the field ,cheating other punter,s for 3 runs,before THE DAY OF THE RACE,isntan edge,it,s thieving,cheating,cumbag, behaviour
howard, on the face of it, yes.
But in relaity they wanted someone to research the racing throughly before any tips. Also, the guy envisaged, not too long into the future, the tipping line carrying racing news bulletins and previews of forthcoming big weekend races, plus racing features and interviews.
The successful applicant was expected to take on all of this and reserach / write the bulletins, possibly interview guests etc. etc. In othjer words, be the journo for an eventual complete BT racing service. Remember this wasall at the concept stage, though.
Now, what happened when Veitch started I don't know, but the service never did go beyond tipping - as fas as I could see at least. So, the guy who interviewed me was proven to have a point about giving up my IT career for such a new venture.
No coincidence, though, how SIS came along not that many years later carrying all the stuff the BT guy wanted to do. He must have been a bit of visionary - but I often wondered if he moved to the people who produced the stuff that went out on SIS.
But in relaity they wanted someone to research the racing throughly before any tips. Also, the guy envisaged, not too long into the future, the tipping line carrying racing news bulletins and previews of forthcoming big weekend races, plus racing features and interviews.
The successful applicant was expected to take on all of this and reserach / write the bulletins, possibly interview guests etc. etc. In othjer words, be the journo for an eventual complete BT racing service. Remember this wasall at the concept stage, though.
Now, what happened when Veitch started I don't know, but the service never did go beyond tipping - as fas as I could see at least. So, the guy who interviewed me was proven to have a point about giving up my IT career for such a new venture.
No coincidence, though, how SIS came along not that many years later carrying all the stuff the BT guy wanted to do. He must have been a bit of visionary - but I often wondered if he moved to the people who produced the stuff that went out on SIS.
Knight , I know you are a bright guy but I think you are some way from correct in your thinking on this. All someone like you ( entrepreneurs ) wants to do is make big money in the short term. Many did it. You didn't need to pass any BT interview to set up an 0898 number. Just pay for installation of the lines and rentals. So you could have done it. Without leaving your job. That is certain. A job with BT was nothing to do with it. Some "names" did go for a profit share but many were sole operators. They weren't interested in where BT thought it was going with content.
The bottom line is they choose Veitch instead of you. No disgrace there. And whatever he had agreed to do beforehand regarding content ( maybe he had agreed to nothing much but they just wanted a Cambridge Maths whiz. ) was not needed afterwards. So he didn't have to give up a job even if he had one. I honestly think the BT guy was fobbing you off in a pleasant way.
howard,,,with respect, you seem to 'know' a great deal about it when it wasn't you being interviewed and it was over 40 years ago!!! My 'thinking' is not thinking or specualtion, it was how it happened...
First of all, this was the early to mid 1980's. Making a fast buck out out of tipping lines was not top of everyone's agenda back then and, indeed, telephone tipping lines and services were almost unknmown. You seem to be forgeting this was the mighty BT, not some geezer trying out a quick money scheme. They did not have to setup or rent lines, they already owned them.
What you are also forgetting is that setting up any 0898 numbers was almost brand new at the time. BT's was one of the first. You seems to think that the BT guy was fobbing me off by coming out with all the story about content etc etc? Don't be so daft! He had a prety funny way of managing if he had to go to all those lengths just to say no.
The concept of the line at the time was how he described it, but note the word concept.
It clearly changed when it came online because there was, if I recall correctly, no news or features etc, just tips. Perhaps Veitch had a say in that, I will never know.
I can only tell you what the BT guy told me. Don't also forget that he did not turn me down for the job. He simply told me that compared to what I already had, it would have been a chancy move for a fledgeling idea. Had I not agreed with him, I could have stayed in the running even though it seemwed Veitch (of course, I did not know it was Veitch) was a bit of a done deal already as first choice. Indeed, in hindsight perhaps the concept did change because he knew Veitch did not want a full time role due to his studies. That, in turn, may have changed the whole shape of what was envisaged. Perhaps he was even trying out new concepts on different candiates and then deciding how to proceed?
The other thing I should have written, was that, when Veitch came to prominence some years later, I realised his knowledge of horse racing was better than mine. I had been a trainee journalist in my very first job but was made redundant. I could write - and did have 3 books published many years later - so did fulfill some of the role's initial requirments but I did not have the knowledge Veitch had even back then. Hence, the BT guy was correct in preferring him anyway.
And lastly, seeing as I went on to develop a career in IT and then make a great deal of money from my own IT business - retired at 51 - I think the guy at BT did me a big favour. I can also still recall at the time how my father thought I was crazy to think of leaving a bank for a tipping / news line and when the BT guy said the same thing (but a bit more politely) I woke up to myself pretty quickly!!
I hope this description clears up thing for you, and thus enables you not to worry and specualte about something you had nothing to do with - unless, of course, you were that BT manager himself!!! LOL...
First of all, this was the early to mid 1980's. Making a fast buck out out of tipping lines was not top of everyone's agenda back then and, indeed, telephone tipping lines and services were almost unknmown. You seem to be forgeting this was the mighty BT, not some geezer trying out a quick money scheme. They did not have to setup or rent lines, they already owned them.
What you are also forgetting is that setting up any 0898 numbers was almost brand new at the time. BT's was one of the first. You seems to think that the BT guy was fobbing me off by coming out with all the story about content etc etc? Don't be so daft! He had a prety funny way of managing if he had to go to all those lengths just to say no.
The concept of the line at the time was how he described it, but note the word concept.
It clearly changed when it came online because there was, if I recall correctly, no news or features etc, just tips. Perhaps Veitch had a say in that, I will never know.
I can only tell you what the BT guy told me. Don't also forget that he did not turn me down for the job. He simply told me that compared to what I already had, it would have been a chancy move for a fledgeling idea. Had I not agreed with him, I could have stayed in the running even though it seemwed Veitch (of course, I did not know it was Veitch) was a bit of a done deal already as first choice. Indeed, in hindsight perhaps the concept did change because he knew Veitch did not want a full time role due to his studies. That, in turn, may have changed the whole shape of what was envisaged. Perhaps he was even trying out new concepts on different candiates and then deciding how to proceed?
The other thing I should have written, was that, when Veitch came to prominence some years later, I realised his knowledge of horse racing was better than mine. I had been a trainee journalist in my very first job but was made redundant. I could write - and did have 3 books published many years later - so did fulfill some of the role's initial requirments but I did not have the knowledge Veitch had even back then. Hence, the BT guy was correct in preferring him anyway.
And lastly, seeing as I went on to develop a career in IT and then make a great deal of money from my own IT business - retired at 51 - I think the guy at BT did me a big favour. I can also still recall at the time how my father thought I was crazy to think of leaving a bank for a tipping / news line and when the BT guy said the same thing (but a bit more politely) I woke up to myself pretty quickly!!
I hope this description clears up thing for you, and thus enables you not to worry and specualte about something you had nothing to do with - unless, of course, you were that BT manager himself!!! LOL...
Are the books still around the knight ?
Regarding Patrick Vietch…i met him on a few occasions down south and up north,a very deep individual imv….
I remember him complaining about being unwell to me and my ex wife at York,feeling faint….she advised him to drink plenty of water,met him a short time later saying he felt a lot better and thanked her…..
She asked him for a winner and he replied with a smile and walked off…..
Regarding Patrick Vietch…i met him on a few occasions down south and up north,a very deep individual imv….
I remember him complaining about being unwell to me and my ex wife at York,feeling faint….she advised him to drink plenty of water,met him a short time later saying he felt a lot better and thanked her…..
She asked him for a winner and he replied with a smile and walked off…..
Your ex wife was also a classless individual then,Aceform.
Asking for a winner
Asking for a winner
She asked me who he was you fool…..a big pro i replied……oh! One of them ….
Thanks for making the effort with the reply. Certainly sounds like you did well in your career. As I said though if you can get into something quick ahead of the pack and plough all the money you can get hold of back into it there are opportunities where you don't HAVE to look at the long career. Top entrepeneurs are a different animal. Hardly likely to listen to their father , accountants let alone BT employees. Certain people made millions from these lines. Many or most had the recording equipment on their own premises. As regards content it soon became apparent that telecom firms were not too worried about content. Certain types of lines 
VIETCH,s book made HANS CHRISTIAN ANDERON FAIRYTALES,seem like the work,s of shakespeare in comparison,would make even NEVO blush
wether it,s £ notes or free sprinkling of VIETCH gold lustre ,judging by those cringeworthy syndicate adverts like of HAGGAS are fully paid up member, of the VIETCH gravey train, has he stripped millions out of the far eat betting markets yet or still dipping hisn toe in to the water
Post Your Reply
Please login to post a reply.
Wonder
Instance ID: 13539