when u won on course did they take 4% off all returns ?

The 4% betting duty was applied to the stakes, not the returns as far as I remember?

Betting duty was shops only , I think
No tax on course

There was pre 87 Reg.

on course you couldn't pay the tax in advance unlike in betting offices.  Now i've thought more about it the same will have happened as in the offices when you didn't pay tax on your stake.  Have an even monkey and they would take off £90 ( 9%  )   Shows the advantage we have here paying 2% on the winnings.

Reg is pretending to be very young.

✦ AI Overview

The on-course betting tax in the UK was set at 4% for roughly a decade, having been maintained at that level until it was officially abolished on March 29, 1987.

For historical context, the on-course betting rate was held steady at 4% while off-course taxes were increased.

During the March 1987 Budget, the Chancellor of the Exchequer announced the complete abolition of the on-course General Betting Duty, freeing trackside betting from this specific taxation.

The betting tax on Bookies was actually 6.75% which they recovered by charging the punter 9%, payable on stake money or winnings.
No tax was paid on course.

Howard is right.Off course it was 9% on stake or 9% on returns (not just winnings).

so if you believe that bookamkers reaction to higher taxes today is punters losing out on bog,enhanced places,double results etc, you didnt really lose out by paying tax off course because if they,d paid tax on course ,they,d have been returning shorter sp,s to pay for it

a lot of bookmakers on course had 2sets of books

On course betting tax was the reason no S/P was returned for Dancing Brave when he
won @ Goodwood.

Was a killer either way. Paying tax on losers if you prepaid  or tax on both stake and winnings on winners.  Wonder we played but there was no admission/travel money

Timeform book said it was better to incorporate the tax into your stake.  Still hand over say a monkey but have that made up with the tax paid within it.

That’s correct Penzance and it’s never happened since.

The announcement of no on course tax was given during racing on the opening day of the 1987 Cheltenham festival .

The no tax situation we have now will be a big part of the reason there seems to be



1,000 s of pro punters around whereas back in the 80/90s very few could make it pay because of the tax .

GENERAL BETTING DUTY - 'Betting Shop Tax' - was introduced in the mid-1960s

It Started at just - 2 and-a-half % on STAKES.

Bookmakers and Chains, at first said they would avoid Deducting Tax from Punters by 'Shaving' the SP Odds Returns.

Hence - The likes of 100/8  (= 12 and-a-half to /1 ) -  DISAPPEARED - and became just 12/1
Likewise - 100/7 and 100/6 - became just 14/1 and 16/1.

- and, of course - 100/9 (= 11 'and a bit') - Often loved by Punters, because they felt that they were getting 'a bit extra' for Free.


The 'BETTING TAX' was subsequently INCREASED to 5% - then 6% -   So the Bookies 'SHAVED' again.

This time - It was PLACE ODDS:

1/4 the Odds a Place ALL Races 8-Runners and above - Soon 'Went out the Window'.... With ALL NON-Handicaps Races becoming 1/5 Odds.

1/4 Odds in Handicaps remained - UNTIL, Later Adjustments moved the Bar (Number of required Runners) Upwards.

2 Places (a THIRD the odds) on 5-Runner Races  ( What a Bet that was ! ) - became a Quarter the odds 2 Places, and minimum 6 Runners -
- and then - even worse still for the savvy Place Punter - became 'ALL on to Win' - if a late Non-Runner reduced the field.

I still think that is actually Illegal - Under Restrictive Practice Regulation.  You should have the choice of - Place Stake RETURNED.

'Paying the Tax ON' (Stakes) - to avoid Deductions from Winnings - also became an Offer - although Bookies then had to Pay the Betting on the Tax PAD on, too... In True HMRC double grab fashion

Just like now, when you buy Petrol for your car - There is Government taken Fuel Duty, in the price of a litre, and then VAT on the end of the Total Price of a Litre - so you Pay an additional 20% VAT on the Fuel Duty, as swell as Paying the Fuel Duty.

So - When the Betting Tax was raised again to 7 and-a-half %

Bookies used this - 'Tax on Tax' as an excuse to DEDUCT 9% from Punters - Either from Winnings, or Stakes 'Paid ON'

7 and-a-half % - plus a bit of extra Tax on Tax to HMRC - and nearly 1 and-a-half % EXTRA 'Tax' KEPT by the Bookies ...


ON TOP of earlier  - REDUCED SPs - REDUCED PLACE ODDS etc.

I hardly think that Off-Course Bookies and the 'Big Chains' came out on the Wtong Side of the 'Betting Tax' fiasco.

Howard, I genuinely forgot that you paid tax on course prior to 1987, and I was going racing regularly from about 76 onwards.

Maybe I didn't have a winner for first 11 years...!!!???

Seriously, as somebody alluded to above, there were 2 books...
I certainly remember certain bookies not giving me a ticket and calling " down to xyz" to the clerk...I wasn't a huge gambler but a couple of bookies knew me, so perhaps I wasn't paying the beeswax on those bets,

Reg

You would have been they wouldn’t have been

Hope your well

30th April 1988 - Saturday

Jokist is running at Haydock Park, for John Virgo - John cannot attend because he is commentating on the first day of the Embassy World Snooker Final - so he asked me to go to Haydock.

I approached Pat Whelan and asked for 1000 to 70, and the Odds a Place - then another Monkey to 35 Win.

'Down to Leather', said Pat, to his Clerk - I was wearing a grey zip-up Leather Jacket.

Jokist Won - and after the Photo in the Winners Circle, etc - I went back to collect the Winnings.'

I approached his pitch and never said anything as he saw me coming, with the punters having thinned out by now.
'Leather,' he said to the Clerk, 'both bets'.

Pat paid me the Monkey bet first - and then the 1000 to 70 - adding, quite pleasantly may I say ....

'Is that the big fellas bet?'


'No', I replied ................... 'They're both mine.'

He was a brilliant operator onlooker

Blimey - What a coincidence.

Speaking of Haydock Park - as I did a couple of posts back.

I have just checked the Deauville Results for this afternoon, and seen that a horse called  Coronado has won, at Fav, for Mickael Barzalona.

It immediately reminded me of the day I backed CORONADO in a Novice Handicap Hurdle at Haydock Park - and it Won at 20/1.

It was the next to the last race, on a Wednesday - and I was, understandably, so chuffed with myself, at such a young age.

Why did I back it - I have just been in my Library of old Form Books and confirmed ...

4yo - Just 3 runs in large field Novice Hurdles - then into this Handicap Hurdle off 10st 4lb at Haydock Park.
What's more - Blinkered for the First-time - and been brought from Chedworth, Cheltenham, Gloucestershire.
- and ridden by David Nicholson.

I must have already had the game by the Bollocks at that tender age. 

I had put a small bet on the Tote, too - as you never knew what the Tote may Pay on a long-odds Winner in those days - No Betting Show Screens, then.

Well, it Paid 21/1 Win and 11/2 a Place - at equivalent Odds, so same as SP - and probably because - who was stood behind me at the Tote Window waiting to collect his Winnings - the Trainer - who I recognised from seeing him in the Parade Ring before the race.

I collected mine, and waited for him to collect his winnings -
Then walking away from the Tote Window, I moved alongside him, put my hand on his shoulder, and simply said ...

'Thanks for bringing him.' 

Blimey - What a coincidence.

Speaking of Haydock Park - as I did a couple of posts back.

I have just checked the Deauville Results for this afternoon, and seen that a horse called  Coronado has won, at Fav, for Mickael Barzalona.

It immediately reminded me of the day I backed CORONADO in a Novice Handicap Hurdle at Haydock Park - and it Won at 20/1.

It was the next to the last race, on a Wednesday - and I was, understandably, so chuffed with myself, at such a young age.

Why did I back it - I have just been in my Library of old Form Books and confirmed ...

4yo - Just 3 runs in large field Novice Hurdles - then into this Handicap Hurdle off 10st 4lb at Haydock Park.
What's more - Blinkered for the First-time - and been brought from Chedworth, Cheltenham, Gloucestershire.
- and ridden by David Nicholson.

I must have already had the game by the goolies at that tender age. 

I had put a small bet on the Tote, too - as you never knew what the Tote may Pay on a long-odds Winner in those days - No Betting Show Screens, then.

Well, it Paid 21/1 Win and 11/2 a Place - at equivalent Odds, so same as SP - and probably because - who was stood behind me at the Tote Window waiting to collect his Winnings - the Trainer, or representative - who I recognised from seeing him in the Parade Ring before the race.

I collected mine, and waited for him to collect his winnings -
Then walking away from the Tote Window, I moved alongside him, put my hand on his shoulder, and simply said ...

'Thanks for bringing him.' 

onlooker 06 Aug 26 17:33 
30th April 1988 - Saturday

Jokist is running at Haydock Park, for John Virgo - John cannot attend because he is commentating on the first day of the Embassy World Snooker Final - so he asked me to go to Haydock.

I approached Pat Whelan and asked for 1000 to 70, and the Odds a Place - then another Monkey to 35 Win.

'Down to Leather', said Pat, to his Clerk - I was wearing a grey zip-up Leather Jacket.

Jokist Won - and after the Photo in the Winners Circle, etc - I went back to collect the Winnings.'

I approached his pitch and never said anything as he saw me coming, with the punters having thinned out by now.
'Leather,' he said to the Clerk, 'both bets'.

Pat paid me the Monkey bet first - and then the 1000 to 70 - adding, quite pleasantly may I say ....

'Is that the big fellas bet?'


'No', I replied ................... 'They're both mine.'

Happy

Proper punters post…..

Thank you - ace

That is a pleasant post.

Those days are well gone onlooker,unfortunately……

Christie,Little,Chandler,Banks,Whelan and more,big players…..that was the last time i was at Haydock….

onlooker  I wonder why no interuptions from dopeybollocks, thats why, the forum could be like this all the time, but for idiots and egoists like him.

"Reg

You would have been they wouldn’t have been "     

to answer the original question, race course bookies paid 4% tax on their total daily take, they charged 4% from any returns to punters (if you bet a 400 to 100 on, you would collect 480). So if the bookie lost on the day, tax wise he was better off.

As said at the start, the 4% was applied to stakes, not returns.

if you've had 400 to win 100  and they knock off 20 they have taken 4% of 500.  Stake AND winnings

I was a racecourse bookie in the 80's, you charged every winning punter 4% on any returns, £10ew on a 5/1 place at a fifth would receive £19.20.At the end of the day, you filled in a tax form, for your total take on each race, worked out 4% of the total, added that to your other days in that week and sent off the total to taxman, good game, not everyone was totally honest.

Sounds like you were not vey savvy then kingofthebop, the 4% was applied to all stakes whether win or lose and had nothing at all to do with winning punters returns.

why did you pack in ?  not enough tracks ?

CagliariG, I was also a punter, and paid 4% on any returns from all bets I had. The taxman supposedly received 4% of all stakes on course correct, but the question was what does the punter draw £960 or £980. It would be £960, if the bet was an even monkey, a 900 to 100 or a 900 to 100 on.

Looks like you are confusing yourself, the tax on the monkey bet was £20, £36 on the £900 i.e  solely on the initial stake and nothing on any returns above the stake.

so you went to the track had £1000 on a 100/1 winner and paid £40 tax. WALOFS

Was he referring to a 100/1 shot howard? Makes no difference if he was as the only figure that counts is the £1,000 stake i.e 4%  = £40.

if a punter had a £900 to £100 a winner, he would draw £960, but the bookie would only pay £4 to the taxman. If a bookie took £5,000 on the day he would pay £200 to the taxman, regardless of winning or losing on the day

no wonder they didn't give tickets out   £2000 bet you've made £80 whatever happens

I remember paying 6% on stake and winnings at The Curragh in 1975 (?) [50 at 5/1 = 300, returned 282]
Did it go to 10% a few years later?

Was 10% in UK offices for a while don't know anything about Ireland.