derby fav, might be a non runner

Was there only an ITV camera looking down into the favourite’s stall because he was the favourite or did all the stalls have cameras installed and if so, is that now the norm, everywhere, or just for bigger meetings?

2 stalls Jumper45, the fav and Item. No not the norm. Brant Dunshea has just been on Racing TV defending the indefensible. What have Jamie Stier, Shaun Parker and Brant Dunshea got in common?

adamski, thanks. What a can of worms has been opened. For all we know we probably have had horses hind legs stuck like this many times before, but as there's no record, who knows?

Stall attendants like we see in the US perhaps?

acey deucy 06 Jun 26 16:21 
Wiil show my arse in Tescos if that i a non runner.


Jaywick High St 6pm lads...he is 19st so 4rse is huge,will fill the window.

Another thing,any horse leaving the stalls with the blind still on should be treated as a non……check out the ones that pull it off after a good few strides…..

Out the back chance well gone.

Before the Risen presses the button he should be calling out blinds off little ones.

At today's Monaco grand prix, Max Verstappen stalled on the starting grid so was last away. I don't suppose Formula 1 punters will get their money back, or expect to.

I remember the radio communication years back……something like slow down let him……

Last time i watched it tbh…

imo what should have happened in the derby scenario was Nothing, just leave it as a runner , and itv racing could highlight that the fav was unlucky etc etc and then if bookies Want to be nice and refund on the horse good for them

I understand this reduction was based upon the event of another horse the name I've forgotten. Could someone please refresh my memory? I think this deduction is crass.

Harrys Angel?

The day will come when a horse is disadvantaged by having its leg stuck in the stalls.  Come out slowly.
And still hack up 10 lengths. 

And it will then have to be declared a non-runner, based on this.

Keep that in mind when you're laying the runner-up in-running to lose your house.

hulk, thats the irony of it all , if he wins oris  placed then he is not a non runner

2 horse race. 

Favs 1/100, meaning 2nd favs what ?  17/2.

Fav gets leg trapped in stalls.  Loses 7 lengths.

Goes on to win the race by 80 lengths, as expected.   

Non-runner.

if it finished in 1st 4 cant be a nonner at least thats how it works abroad,tha,s one problem solved  but creates another becaue no matter how badly your start maybe impaired,lets say 10 x worse than yesterday in a 2,3 4 runner field you wont be deemed a NR,unless I imagine you pull up

Was there a camera in every stall?

A ridicuolus decision.

The Knight, you have stolen the 'feet' offside idea from me, I threw this out there a long time ago!

Was only 2 stalls with cameras
Was also one in Items.

Every other jockey should've said their horse had a leg caught up. Winner and Item the only ones to complete, rest NRs.

The horse was a non trier was never going to be tested on that ground.  the owner landed a touch.

Some of you still think that Delacroix took a bump last year and that the master trainer was just trying to stretch the lions stamina!

Remember the lies at the time?

Delacroix

Midfield, hampered and dropped to rear after 3f, pushed along over 5f out, never on terms (trainer said, regarding the poor form shown, that colt suffered interference at top of hill causing him to become unbalanced and lose his position, which was noted)

Oh and he also was 2/1 fav!

Watch the race back, he and Ben ran identical races.

There’s a much bigger story here that some are slow to cotton onto.

Two years apart excuses are made for the beaten fav, but the horse that was meant to win the derby got to the front and obliged, it wasn’t unbacked nor was Lambourn last year.

He was 11/1 in the morning back then sp 13/2

The stewards are looking at the wrong things and are puppets.

Compare race comments from this year and last, note the SP’s

2026 Derby
https://www.racingpost.com/results/17/epsom/2026-06-06/912530

towards rear, headway over 2f out, soon bit short of room - Ben actually made headway!

2025 Derby
https://www.racingpost.com/results/17/epsom/2025-06-07/887145

Lightening does strike twice, in both cases excuses were made after the race for the beaten Fav.

How would that benefit them?
Running a horse down the field in the Derby?

The Stewards may declare a horse a non-runner where:
In a Race started from starting stalls, a horse is denied a fair start, and its chances are materially affected, including but not limited to where:
a horse is prevented from starting on equal terms due to a faulty action of the starting stalls

The horse was not denied a fair start.
I did not bet on the Derby.

Being denied means having a request, right, or privilege refused, withheld, or rejected.
No person prevented the horse starting, no equipment malfunction prevented the horse starting.


"a horse is denied a fair start" - Benvenuto Cellini it was not prevented from a fair start
"its chances are materially affected" - Benvenuto Cellini was a little slowly away but with the field, perhaps at most two lengths behind
"its chances are materially affected" - Benvenuto Cellini finished in 10th (earnings GBP 20,000), and was beaten 26 lengths by the winner, beaten 21 lengths by the 3rd.


It was the most idiotic interference by an official since the shambles on the 1913 Derby.

He's 3/1 for the Irish version along with Christmas Day. I think, unless it's bottomless again, he's most likely for it. Coolmore would like him to win a Derby for the prestige and breeding value attached. A good redemption price and a 2nd bite of the cherry for no extra cost to his supporters.

I do not think Con River will show. He'd most likely to be aimed at the 10f big races eg Juddmonte and Eclipse.

Can anyone on here see Benvenuto Cellini over turning the form with
the Epsom 1ST 3 if they meet again,I can't myself.3/1 looks short to me.

brandyontherocks • June 8, 2026 11:15 AM BST
How would that benefit them?
Running a horse down the field in the Derby?

It wasn’t given a hard time and we’ve been here before, last year. The horse made the market since it won at Chester.

He’d been 2/1 since then. Plenty of time to lay it.  Then the money came for the winner who was ridden to win.

Yes I can see the result changed, on different ground, but mainly tactics.

Let’s not forget that Ben wasn’t even rated the top horse in the race, yet was deemed the winner by many without even running.

Also the horse only had the one run, these stayers often prefer two races in their legs, as we see from Graffard wanting to take in Epsom then Saint Cloud before the KG.

I’d said on the Derby thread that it was unusual for a horse to go to the Derby with one run, normally only the Guineas runners have that prep.

He’d also been touted to go to the Epsom Derby trial which seemed really odd. Then because of the timing of that changing he showed at Chester.

I asked more than once was wasn’t the good thing even shorter having won THE favoured trial, Moore on board etc…

They pulled another fast one even to having that jock on the winner!!

The lawyer on the AK Bets podcast thinks the stewards have misunderstood and misapplied the rules. Remember, lawyers interpret rule books for a living.

The podcast is on YouTube at
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOgrZPKtDDE

...and presumably other podcast platforms.

Ironically, said lawyer thinks there is a different reason from those given that might have allowed declaration of a non-runner but that was not the stewards' explanation given.

That factor being whether Ryan Moore was distracted by the stalls handler, but that is not what the stewards said.

Non of that makes any sense to me, Dela.

But we all see things differently.

Have a look back at the French 1000 Guineas see how Moore rousts Diamond Necklace to get a forwards position. He’s low and you see his arms moving frantically.


https://www.racingtv.com/watch/replays/2026-05-10/longchamp/1525

Then compare his ride at Epsom

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ggAbAuIkmWY

He never put in the effort to take a forwards position.

Was expecting some disappointment among punters betting with different bookies...some waiving the 25p rule4 deduction, others not doing so. Imagine trying to explain to a twice a year punter, GN and Derby, maybe a couple of Cheltenham bets...that his winnings  come to less than his mate, identical bets placed.

Well, in baldy shop this morning, the OTC bets were not subject to the rule4, but bets placed on the terminals were...manager told me he had a couple of irate punters who were convinced they were being diddled...

What doesn’t make sense Brandy?  You say none but it’s obvious to me that that horse wasn’t meant to win.

Penzance how many would you take from the Derby? In a rematch?

Maltese Cross isn’t entered for Ireland and Haggas has his eye set on the Grand Prix Du Paris for him, he’s French bred.

So it might be why they are that low (3/1)

terrible shilling by bryce & weaver on ATR tonight

2 imbeciles pedalling the bs that the horse was denied a fair start

yarmouth horse same
windsor horse same

scandalous calling these NRs

newcastle NR flying scotsman that is total bollocks imo

indefensible

Oh dear :

Facing him, Benvenuto Cellini remains a very serious contender following his victory in the Chester Vase, a prep race that was won last year by Lambourn, Aidan O’Brien’s eleventh Derby winner. The son of Frankel possesses “speed, class, and stamina,” according to his trainer, but he will need to prove himself [b]against tougher competition and on a track that may not be entirely to his advantage.

[/b]

and on a track that may not be entirely to his advantage.

I’ll let you all decide whether that was the ground or the track itself

Delashay • May 6, 2026 3:32 PM BST
I don’t like this for the Derby was due (if we can believe them) to run in the trial at Epsom, do they have their doubts about acting at the track there?

Wouldn’t surprise me if he’s shuffled things to confuse punters who might automatically look to the Chester Vase winner for the Derby winner!

He’s priced now @ 2/1 Fav as if to emphasise this.

- - - - -

Written on the dy of the Chester Vase. Was always told to stick with my gut.

And now you see why Moore didn’t rush him out of the gate if you bothered to watch the two links for race start comparisons.

He’s a brother to Gizelle and she never handled Epsom either.

Was nursed round with another day in mind.

Makes the non runner tag even more laughable!

Duffy remember saying that racing isn’t 1920’s Chicago?

Two very separate issues.
1. Should the new rule have come in to force at all? How much of this is pressure to comply with other countries almost all of whom have pool betting which does not involve Rule 4.
2. Was the new rule interpreted correctly? Technically it probably was as the favourite was hampered by having one foot on the rail. But it was his own fault and not in any way caused by equipment failure apart from perhaps the design of the stall. The presence of a camera in the stall was a bit like VAR in that only a few races have such equipment and it was presumably not available to the starter from a live feed. How can you have a rule interpretation that is reliant on a camera in every stall and how can it work unless an official is watching every stall? There must be horses every day that put a leg on the side of the stall but nobody ever knows. The debate about planned tactics are totally irrelevant and the finishing position be ignored. One day a horse might get a helful push from an elevated leg and win. Will it be deemed to have had an unfair advantage?
If all stalls open together, every horse should be a runner. End of story.

sageform re point 2, the lawyer on the AK Bets podcast thinks the rule does not say what the BHA and stewards think it says, in which case it was not interpreted correctly (although interestingly he does think there is another aspect to the rule that could have meant he was a NR.)

Unless this rule (or its interpretation) is fixed or removed, there could be carnage over jumps. Look how many false starts there were at Cheltenham, and there are uneven starts every day.

.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOgrZPKtDDE

some excellent commentary by him particularly from 9:50 onwards
far above calvin & AK's understanding of this area imo

this is the rule according to the BHA website...

New wording of Rule (H)6 from 1 October 2025

6. The Stewards may declare a horse a non-runner where:

6.1 In a Race started from starting stalls, a horse is denied a fair start, and its chances are materially affected, including but not limited to where:

6.1.1 a horse is prevented from starting on equal terms due to a faulty action of the starting stalls; or

6.2 In a race started by any method other than starting stalls, a horse is denied a fair start, and its chances are materially affected, including but not limited to where:

6.2.1 a horse is prevented from starting on equal terms due to a faulty action of a starting mechanism; or

6.2.2 when the race is started, a horse is in such a position as to be denied the opportunity of starting on equal terms.

6.3 that horse is riderless at the ‘Off’.

6.4 that horse has gained an unfair advantage at the start of the Race.

Note: Examples where this might occur are extremely unlikely to include situations where a horse achieves an easy lead at the start, as this would usually be due to rider or horse behaviour. Instead, this might occur include, for example, where a horse approaches the tapes at a gallop while the balance of the field is at no more than a jig-jog, which should have triggered a false start but is not picked up by the starter.

rule 6.1 isn't a bad rule but it needs tightening up by removing "but not limited to" and replacing with 6.1.2 any external interference from a third party that compromises the opportunity for a horse to make a fair start

as opposed to just do what you (or world pool) would like

in this BHA blog

.
https://www.britishhorseracing.com/non-runners-at-the-start/

When this rule was announced a number of examples were cited as to when it might be enacted. One of those examples was as follows:

“Where a horse’s own behaviour alone, after the starting mechanism has been operated, results in the horse being unable to start on equal terms, the horse shall not be declared a non-runner. However, if a horse, for example, kicks out and gets caught in the starting gates before the starting mechanism has been operated, and the starter is unaware leading to the horse being unable to start on equal terms as a result, the Stewards can consider declaring a non-runner.”

This example can clearly be applied to the incident in the Derby, and this is plainly different from a horse rearing up after the starting mechanism has been operated. In such incidents the horse would be declared a runner as they have been given the opportunity to break evenly, but didn’t. In the case of Benvenuto Cellini he was denied the opportunity to break evenly, and is therefore declared a non-runner.

Further to this, the question is being raised as to whether a horse would be removed from the race if they rear up in the stalls prior to opening. This is also highly unlikely to be the case. The difference with Benvenuto Cellini is that his leg was caught in the stalls, as opposed to just rearing up. This is the differentiating factor. In such circumstances prior to starting the race the horse would be removed from the stalls and checked by a vet prior to reloading and running (if able). This does not apply when a horse just rears up. A horse simply rearing up without becoming in any way entangled with the stalls would fall under the category of a horse’s own misbehaviour and therefore count as a runner.

A further comment we are seeing suggested is that this scenario goes beyond what was envisaged when this rule was introduced. However, the fact that such a scenario was specifically cited when the rules were announced shows that it does not, and the rules were intended to capture situations such as this.

The rules themselves are intentionally broad, stating that “The Stewards may declare a horse a non-runner where…a horse is denied a fair start, and its chances are materially affected, including but not limited to….x, y, z”. Clearly it is not possible to list every possible example in the rules of racing, and it is ultimately down to the stewards’ discretion on the day. This discretion is important, as circumstances may vary and stewards must have the ability to act accordingly.

you won't find any of this bs in the rulebook

Were there many biggies on Benvenuto Cellini on Derby Day? If so, were they known faces esp those from the City of London? There have been many occasions - even televised races - that horses refused to race eg stayed in the stall; refused to jump off (NH); etc. None of the punters of these horses had their stakes refunded.

impossible123 • June 9, 2026 12:57 PM BST
Were there many biggies on Benvenuto Cellini on Derby Day?

no need to call hercule poirot to figure that out

That obvious? If so, none were associated with the BHA, I hope. I lost my money on BC. I'd like my money back plz, betfair.

be HK whales...bad for future turnover

the world pool CEO even admitted it when interviewed on RTV
words to the effect of HK wouldn't like it

Oh dear! The BHA remains clueless and spineless. I thought a change in head honcho would bring about a positive change conducive to horseracing and betting.

different puppet, same puppet master

From wondersobright's post with its extract from the BHA blog:-

https://www.britishhorseracing.com/non-runners-at-the-start/

When this rule was announced a number of examples were cited as to when it might be enacted. One of those examples was as follows:

“Where a horse’s own behaviour alone, after the starting mechanism has been operated, results in the horse being unable to start on equal terms, the horse shall not be declared a non-runner. However, if a horse, for example, kicks out and gets caught in the starting gates before the starting mechanism has been operated, and the starter is unaware leading to the horse being unable to start on equal terms as a result, the Stewards can consider declaring a non-runner.”

This example can clearly be applied to the incident in the Derby... In the case of Benvenuto Cellini he was denied the opportunity to break evenly, and is therefore declared a non-runner.

The BHA blog writer is jumping through hoops to support the verdict. The bit on bold is clearly wrong. The example quoted does not apply to the Derby because the horse was not caught in the stalls or prevented from starting.

Ironically a lot of Benvenuto Cellini's problem is that just before the off, Ryan Moore is distracted by the stalls handler and so it is arguably the jockey who is not ready when the stalls open.

I do not think you can say it was jockey error.
A horse pushes out of the gate using his rear legs.
Preferably two rear legs.

I'm not saying it was jockey error. I'm saying Ryan Moore was distracted by the stalls handler warning him about the horse's leg.

You guys don’t realise that if it wasn’t the leg up that they’d of found another excuse for his defeat!

Horse weren’t meant to win. All this about the BHA is avoiding what really went on!

Delashay you have completely misunderstood the Coolmore/Ballydoyle MO.

They were not trying to get Benvenuto Cellini beaten. They were not trying to get his handicap mark down for a coup in a 2028 Roscommon seller. Aidan O'Brien is not Barney Curley.

They were running every middle distance trial horse with a leg at each corner, using different tactics for each one, so that whoever passed the post first could be talked up by Aidan as having the speed for a July Cup.

And that is why he never says anything negative before the race.

Correct Ramruma.

They didn’t have to get him beaten, he was never in it. They had it off and the BHA look like mugs.

The stewards don’t see what I see and listen to too much talk.

Horse wasn’t stoped from getting to where they say they wanted.

All the talk was that it happened all so fast, Moore calked out, the stalls handler moved in, the gates opened, it made little impact on him jumping and taking a position.

Moore made no effort and they had it off on Christmas Day!

Now they talk up the rematch and a potential form reversal at the Curragh and the RP peddle this crud!

And that is why he never says anything negative before the race.

Did you notice Mag never even mentioned the winner when Trapman was interviewing him?

I never take to these conspiracy theories.

Some people do, and that is their choice.

But for me there is zero point in them "having it off" on one, and letting the favourite trail in 30L behind.
These guys make millions every year, they dont need to lay the favourite in the DERBY,the race they want to win more than any race in the calendar.

Delbert lives for them,brandy.

You put up Christmas Day after I’d stated his case.

So that’s enough for me to know that you saw sense in what I presented to you all.

Because no one really fancied it before.

the race they want to win more than any race in the calendar.

And they duly obliged but not with what the media told us to back.

The horse was 2/1 since it won its trial, when River was declared for the PDJC even more money came for it!

One thing that the rich want is MORE and they live the power as I’ve said before.

Aiden’s wife confirmed he loves to control everything, including punters I don’t doubt!

Relentless loon

Not arguing, Dela, just stating what I believe.

I did not see that you had put Christmas Day up as your pick, as I know you dont do that or look for plaudits.
I picked him because of his form.

Personally I can not see the scenario where OBrien would get his jockeys together and say;
Action, we are sacrificing you as the pace maker.
Pierre, sit out the back, jog around and do not win.
Benvenuto, sit last and whatever you do, do not win.
Christmas, you win today.

Gates open, Christmas Day refuses to race and we do not have any horse trying to win the biggest race of the year.

Only a lunatic would believe that scenario.
Step forward Delbert

sit out the back has been the place to be in a lot of renewals over the years
coolmore have enough resources to be front, back & centre of the pace cover all angles

You’re right on one point Brandy but here’s a question to everyone, who’s laying the unlucky one for the race in Ireland on a different track, different going?

My memory stretches back to their two recent 1000 Guineas winners and that’s enough to say no for me.

You mentioned that’s they’d not want to lay the fav, but the winner went in from 20/1 to 7/1 during the decs stages, that’s some punt and someone was in the know about race tactics.

"Aiden's wife confirmed he loves to control everything, including punter"

Is that so? This revelation will save me money in the future. It may be too late for Precise (have her with Bow Echo) hopefully, the St Leger (Pierre).

You must of missed the interview on itv impossible where he acted so sweet and innocent not being able to pronounce the favs name!

Rich owner will want something more than he’s getting.

He has just won the Derby with Christmas Day.
Think he will be happy enough.

Also, 123 has taken your line about Aiden controlling the punter literally.

Implausible is thicker than Delbert

He does control punters totally, not long ago people thought Albert was his best ever. He said that Gstaad would run in the French Guineas and he drifted to double figures on the basis of it.

He might have been part owner of the Derby winner but his colours weren’t worn on it, think he’d of preferred to see the Green silks in the winner’s enclosure than the third string.

Which in itself says a lot. It that sleight of hand that I talked about earlier in the year.

Here lads we’ll put Ryan up on the Chester Vase winner and they’ll make him fav and the punters will lap that up, but we won’t ever put him into the race, ride him cold out the back. Save him for next time.

Whilst the other mug jocks are waiting for Ryan to make his move, we’ll slip the field the way Shamie used to!

Classic!

Why’s there always this echo in here?!

Never really saying anything but always chipping in trying to influence and make friends!

Delbert just back from Shelf Stacking

but we won’t ever put him into the race, ride him cold out the back. Save him for next time.

Some are either very slow or forgiving beyond the extreme.

'There's a possibility he could go' - controversial Derby non-runner Benvenuto Cellini may make quick return at Royal Ascot

And no one thinks that the non trier element should have been looked into by the stewards and not the stalls incident?!

Indeed. Ben could rock up in the King Edward at Royal Ascot which is just 9 days prior to the Irish Derby. Charming!

Benvenuto Cellini is a clumsy oaf, according to a journo at the Racing Post. But, the oaf has friends in high places ie the BHA more than us mortals. A pathetic decision by the Bloody Hopeless Authority (BHA) in The Epsom Derby - the biggest race in the 3yr old calendar.

Ben could rock up in the King Edward at Royal Ascot

Was going to be a different horse at the Curragh in the Irish Derby a couple of days ago!

To think this was fav and declared a non runner in a G1 when his next target might not be a G1!

penzance • June 8, 2026 1:41 PM BST
Can anyone on here see Benvenuto Cellini over turning the form with
the Epsom 1ST 3 if they meet again,I can't myself.3/1 looks short to me.

- - - -

6/4 now

Ben had negative form on easy going. The ground at The Curragh will be very different unless there's a freak deluge prior; Christmas Day is on a walkie; the enigma Pierre Bonnard could be the fly in the ointment on 2 yr old form.

I think Ben will win but, nothing spectacular in the 3 yr old status of winners. Another much of a muchness lot, I can confidently say.

…”Another much of a muchness lot…”

That sums it up.

But remember Constitution is only rated a 1lb better than Christmas Day.

Con River has been hyped by the gravy-train pundits. I think AOB knows the horse's potential hence the avoidance of The Eclipse or Irish Derby this weekend. His win in France looked superior given his draw however, AOB deployed team tactic, and the other jockeys rode injudiciously as if they were part of the AOB battalion ie they rode with their thinking cap in the toilet.

The AOB battalion dictated the entire race. Even Soumillon on Hawk Mountain was "easy" of his mount who finished 2nd.

Just noticed AOB / Coolmore could be rerouting Con River to The Eclipse post comments of connections of Ombudsman the race was very unlikely for the horse.

Could Gosden / Godolphin call AOB / Coolmore's bluff and run Ombudsman? Would that not be interesting? otherwise the race could be another benefit for AOB and Coolmore.

impossible12325 Jun 26 17:56Joined: 07 Sep 15 | Topic/replies: 34,169 | Blogger: impossible123's blog
Con River has been hyped by the gravy-train pundits. I think AOB knows the horse's potential hence the avoidance of The Eclipse or Irish Derby this weekend. His win in France looked superior given his draw however, AOB deployed team tactic, and the other jockeys rode injudiciously as if they were part of the AOB battalion ie they rode with their thinking cap in the toilet.


About as clear as mud.