Each way betting

If your not conversant with e/way betting OP and the why's and wherefore's of using it to your advantage i'd leave it well alone.

There are races that present themselves when betting e/way is a poor house certainty , that said some races will present themselves when it's just plain idiotic not to play e/way.


Leave well alone is my advice until you do some research.


Best of luck   

EW betting is the biggest con trick ever perpetrated on the betting public

^^ this

if you are in a bookie office and your mate is placing £20 win on a horse you can use his money if you want to back it to be placed.
a lot of bookies will not take place bets on there own

Thanks for the replies guys. I've been testing tips for each way bets over the previous 7 months and while it returned profits, I noticed the combined odds were actually better than the odds at each way so it makes no sense why someone would back each way when they can just back on both bets. @steerforth , I'll test as you suggested on the 7 months data I have by just backing the win and see what results I get.

I think the OP is talking about each way betting on the exchange not with the bookies. The two are miles apart. If bookies it is as you say TM but if exchange it's a massive waste of time as win and place will always (assuming no non-runners when reduction factors will generally work against each way bets) will be a little worse than the individual markets because of the Betfair bot.

EW betting is the biggest con trick ever perpetrated on the betting public

The truth.

If you cant see the upsides of having EW betting in your "toolkit" - you probably shouldn't be betting at all imo - as it indicates you have no understanding of the numbers.

There's truth that some people use EW betting as a "comfort blanket", meaning many people accept poor EW value (knowingly or not) for less volatility/variance in their returns. Long term betting EW is probably costing most of those people money and worse still - betting EW habitually, regardless of specifics is pure madness.

But I'd guess all of the biggest staked (knowingly over-staked) and most confident winning bets (singles) I have ever had in my life have been Each Way bets. Admittedly not many of them would have been on something with so many variables as a horse race. Personally I wouldn't be prepared to massively "over-stake" on any individual/solitary horse race, no matter how tempting - but the argument for EW is equally applicable to horse racing to some extent.

People will argue (sometimes quite rightly) that having 2 stakes to win instead of one stake EW would have returned more over time. While that's often true, it's not a qualified or specific statement and it fails to consider two points:

1) I've had lots of similarly over-staked bets (again, not usually on racing) that haven't won - but have placed - while having very few such over-staked bets that fail to place. So the argument that 2 win stakes would have paid more than betting EW is completely unqualified/baseless unless you know the specifics of the bets, the prices and most importantly my/your win/place/unplaced ratios.

In horse racing with all it's variables and even with the best judgement in the world, you will have unplaced EW bets where you lose two stakes, so over-staking (even when the maths are absolutely in your favour) is a risky proposition on a single event imo.

2) More importantly it completely overlooks the fact that I wouldn't have had the bets at all or to any significant stake, if forced to bet win-only. The only reason I was prepared to stake so heavily on some non-racing bets (relative to usual stakes) was the near certainty in my mind that the win part of the bet was effectively a free bet because the place element of the bet would cover (or very nearly cover) the the win stake. I doubt I would have placed any of my winning-most bets (at the stakes or the prices) in a win-only market.

So we've gone full circle - back to the "comfort-blanket" that EW can provide. But there's a world of difference between the two "comfort-blankets" I have outlined!

As the first on here with a "sweeping statement", I think I should come back and allow that TM makes a valid point. Obviously there are times when making an EW bet at bookies terms provides value if you know what you're looking at.
I should clarify the point I was making. When I said "EW betting is the biggest con..." I should have said "EW terms are the biggest con.." Except when they offer a clear advantage, and I do recognise those cases, ie when the fvt is short and the relative chances of the opposition and field size combine to provide value.

That said, if I really thought the fvt looked the winner I would factor in the loss of the win stake in assessing the value on the place, and I suspect the number of times you'll find it would be low.

I wouldn't put anyone off taking advantage of that set up with any high street/internet bookmaker who will take the bet (although I suspect you won't get many goes). They have it coming. For myself I actualy find it unedifying and I wouldn't do it with any old style "gentleman bookmaker" with whom I had a relationship. (Those were the days).

Betting into the place market on here is an option but for what its worth, I've had a freakish three months in which I've had a huge number of 2nd places, far more than that I would have thought was statistically likely. I ran the figures, (admittedly needing to speculate on 2nd place returns based on typical pre race offers relative to win price, since there are no published returns), working out the difference between halving the stake between the win and "to finish in the first two" markets, and the full stake win only. The former was a loss from a high strike rate on the 2nds. The latter, a small profit from a relatively low win strike rate.
I haven't worked out the return for betting it all onto the first two market, but I suspect that would return a small profit, but from an exceptionally high strike rate that bears no correlation to longer term results looking back.
Smallish sample, but I think it tells me what I need to know.

all you assumption are based on someone in lon gterm having 20 0n the nose instead of a 10 ew might or might not be better off,but everyday punters don't work to spread sheets, P/L etc,it doesn't mean the whole 20 goes on the nose they might still just have a tenner on the nose,and for 95% of punters its all about getting a return,it s a brave man who ignores 6,8 20,s + horses getting placed with enhanced places with  no return

This has or will eventually just turn into an each to their own thread and as the vast majority of punters never change their ways it won't really go anywhere , lots to do with whether someone is either a one or multi dimensional punter.

Would add though finding days when you can compound an over broke as opposed to the traditional over rounds would make some rethink when involving multiples and i'd say the whole point in my mind is that the bookmaker place terms aren't mean as implied they're actually over generous when you're selective , if it was operationally possible they'd be offering 1/10th a place 1,2,3 in some races and be fully justified in doing so in a business sense.


Good luck today all   

I wouldn't be so dismissive of the importance of variance.  If you use a proportional staking system it is possible to make greater profit over time in a lower variance regime than in a higher variance regime that shows a higher level stake profit.  It comes down to sequence risk.

kincsem24 May 25 12:41Joined: 12 Apr 04 | Topic/replies: 10,578 | Blogger: kincsem's blog
A translation of that is "you must be stupid if you do not bet each-way"

You've turned my much more balance argument into a sweeping statement!

No worries - that's your prerogative.

A more accurate translation would have been "There's a time and a place for most bet types. EW betting is no exception and if you never consider it, you're probably missing some good opportunities".

If you always bet EW you're not doing yourself any favours - probably likewise if you never bet EW.

Perfectly summed up   



If you always bet EW you're not doing yourself any favours - probably likewise if you never bet EW.

I liken it to football punters who don't give a bit back/forgot a bit of winnings by greening up/cashing out etc, how many last 10 mins,last min,in jury time goals that rob you of any winnings could you stomach before changing your strategy or walking away ?

@steerforth

"admittedly needing to speculate on 2nd place returns based on typical pre race offers relative to win price, since there are no published returns"

they should all be here:

https://promo.betfair.com/betfairsp/prices

in an hr since thread  started I,d have had to have swallowed no return from
principality 28,s
double A 28,s

God Bless sparrow (I'd like to think I was always patient and kind to him on this topic) but he just couldn't ever get his head around Each Way betting or the time to deploy it.

And ironically, he would often only bring it up after the (most filthy) Each Way bet of the year had just won! Essentially complaining at the most inopportune and inappropriate of moments - telling all the each-way thieves what mugs they were - while they were busy counting their plentiful ill gotten gains!

He'd happily point out that the winner had paid 7 or 8 or 9 on the exchange but had returned a "pitiful" Industry SP of 3/1 or 7/2 or 4/1. But he just couldn't get his head around the fact that this also meant Each Way players were getting 1.60 or 1.70 or 1.80 for the place, on a horse that had gone off at 1.12 or 1.15 or 1.20 in the Betfair Place Only market.

Obviously the horse (be it 3/1, 7/2 or 4/1 ISP) would have gone off about that same price in the BF EW market!
But he just couldn't see past the disparity between BFSP in the win market and ISP (which was based on EW being an available option).

Hopefully by now he's a pint with Barry Dennis (up there) and seen the light. RIP.

Screaming - a very fair point you make about the harsh reality versus in theory or paper trading!

I like a bit of place laying myself, kincsem.

I utilise it in various scenarios - but the "will he or won't he" situations around going on the going, getting the trip, pace in a race (or lack of it), etc, etc, are probably my favourite use of it.

Over simplifying it a bit - but you also get scenarios where you think a strongly fancied or "talking" horse" will either absolutely p1ss-up or completely bomb, making the place market a sensible alternative to the win market for layers.

Which just goes to show, there is a time and a place for all sorts of bets.