Shoemark loses Gosden job.

Quickened in the Craven…

The lad’s gonna have a bit of pride in himself, Lochy, and tell Johnny where to shove his glorified number two role. Then he’s gonna come back and haunt him!

You wouldn’t have stood for it if Esso  fought in another tanker driver because they thought you were sh1te!!

The best horse finished 2nd in the 2000 - was that down to the jockey - one could say yes - could it have been track conditions - one could say yes - to summarize -  JG needs a better jockey than Shoemark.  That's it

Ya, on softer ground. A harsh decision by Gosden.

how do you know it's a harsh decision? it could be based on numerous events, work at home, their relationship, other races in addition to the 2000

He’s going to lose a few quid Kenbo scraping around other yards,best keeping quiet,weather the storm….

I can imagine the conversation over breakfast after first lot….

I'm saying Murphy's a good jockey,thats me.
Who's saying he's replacing Shoemark?

No-one

You are probably right there, Lochy. Would I stay and still collect a decent wedge each week, or would I tell him (politely if you want another job in the industry) to stick it where the Sun don’t shine? Pride doesn’t put food on the table.

Unless your name is pride

Yep,I told that to a tanker driver twenty years ago and he retired last year with a bundle after earning a bundle….

Bite the lip.

Dave thought nothing wrong with ride

neither did your master freddie, come to think of it I didnt see that much wrong myself

Should have won fred,he should also keep the ride imo

U said after the race u seen nothing wrong with it

If he hadn't ran in the Craven, probably would have won on Saturday. That race gave the jockey a sense of invincibility, not surprisingly. Or he would have still won if it had been the usual pace of a 2000 from the start. My personal view would be that he could have won, but very understandable how he got caught out. Wasn't a shocker, but one can see why connections might feel let down. I didn't bet in the race fwiw

Spur of the moment fred but when you look a few times and listen to the rider….

sounded to me like KS was holding his hands up with interview with matt

In hindsight he will definitely feel he should have won. Context is everything. The biggest criticism I feel can be levelled is that he didn't seem to realise that they had not gone quick. A top tier jockey probably would have. But top tier jockeys lose races that they could have won too. I still remember Marling!

gosdensaid he should have won
shoemark said he should have won
TIMEFORM said he should have won
gosdens basically sacked him
big openers in yard don't want him riding if better is available

and still punterson here/itv pundits/ruk pundits ,saying NOTHING TO SEE HERE GOV

I'm not known as someone who cares what other people think. And jockeys make errors, they should not be protected from critique. He probably should have won, but it is explicable what happened. For me it wasn't a fatal error, but I don't employ his services.

Second instead of first could mean difference of millions when it comes to being a stallion or not

asa gosden basically says in his statement ,it beginning of long season,do it now .because it wont be the last is what he,s saying

He wasn't retained anyway 1st timer so he hasn't been sacked.
Who would you suggest as Stable Jockey (bearing in mind that they have to be available)?

I have walked out of plenty of jobs when i worked in Racing.....Bite ma lip?...Nay fakin chance.

Opinions are like backsides Acey(everybody has one).

I am sorry but this Field of Gold is no wonder horse.
He is Group 3 quality.
Beaten in both G1s he has raced.
He was a poor fav in the Guinness and I would not be wanting to back him to turn the form around with the Godolphin horse even if Lester or Fred Archer was up.
I dont think there is a man alive who can beat Buick on a Sheikh Mo horse at HQ, there is absolutely no blame at Shoemarks door. The horse simply isnt good enough.

I am fairly certain that the horse is Group1 Class (whether he wins one or not).
A big horse with bags of scope to improve(especially when it runs over 10F).
As I have already said,the fast ground found him out going into the Dip and he took longer to quicken than the jockey thought.
It happens

Lester Pigott,Steve Cauthen,Kieran Fallon Pat Eddery,  Walter Swinburn would have won the guineas on FOG, as would Willie Carson,Frankie Dettori and Ryan Moore

Did you watch Lester winning the guineas on Shadeed in 1985?

Is anybody suggesting that Shoemark should be mentioned in the same breath as the above?
I know that I wouldn't.
A journeyman Jockey who fell into a top job

Maybe some of those hall of fame guys might have won. But not Dettori. And certainly not Ryan. No better judge of pace than Ryan over middle distances. But sprinters and milers, no thank you.
Buick is head and shoulders the best jock up the Rowley Mile at the moment.
In fact had he been on Shadow of Light I fancy that one might have done the business.

Ryan and Frankie rolled up on favoured Ballydoyle horses in 2021 & 2022 and finished down the field

Better than Journeyman he is vert talented imho.

A slightly derogatory remark Acey but,no way is he top class

Its weird how the jockey apologists dont see the point being made. The point was simply it was poor ride and why the media were so cowardly as to not discuss it. Then people on here started arguing that it wasn't a poor ride and thats why they didn’t discuss it. And that line of argument has been conclusively proven wring with subsequent events/comments by the participants.

I meant discuss and criticise it at the time not now when now its ok to discuss it it seems

Almost a week ago move on……

Spencer blew two,1000 & 2000…..

Almost a week ago move on……

Spencer blew two,1000 & 2000…..

I think Gosden should have considered this appointment and predicament as possibilities prior; Shoemark is no Dettori for  obvious reasons; Moore blew up on many credible shortie Gp1 favs at Ascot. As such, I believe the decision to opt for the "best available" jockey around now.

I'm sure Shoemark will ride with aplomb just as he's been doing prior to last Saturday debacle.

In as much as I would be firmly in the 'poor ride' camp, to play devil's advocate is there an argument to be made that if allowed to continue riding as No.1 the jockey would be absolutely determined not to mess up again and would actually benefit from this episode?

Not just one ride, accumulated evidence. Inspiral ride was another that did not please the owners. He had one ride on Trawlerman and 6 on Emily Upjohn in valuable races and won none of them. Of course the horses might not have won with any other jockey but it is the body of evidence that has caused the move. As the OP says, the final straw. None of us really know how much is due to poor instructions from the trainer as he seems to make fewer mistakes for other yards.

MJK, being determined not to mess up and having the instinct to make the right moves are not the same thing.

Inspiral's not won since,Trawlerman's a Godolphin horse who's not won either & Emily Upjohn
hasn't won since 2023.

Shoemark seems like a nice guy, but this has been on the cards for a while.

The difference between success and failure is so small at the top level of sport and with Shoemark and Gosden, he did sometimes just fall on the wrong side of the line.

Field of Gold was a perfect example. He rode it with a touch too much confidence and when the horse was a fraction longer in quickening than he thought he had an uphill task.

Possible that a more experienced would have taken that into account and got down to the task a few seconds earlier. Surely then the horse would have won by a couple of lengths? Then KS would have been a hero. But, and this is where I came in, the difference at the top between success and failure in tiny.

doesn't really matter what people thinks, comes down to what JG thinks and what his owners say to him, whether right or wrong it's his yard and his owners

The default position of most jocks in most races is to hold the horse up and hope it has enough ability to get you out of trouble.
Its what Shoemark did on FOG.
Predictably it failed.

Gosden enjoyed a purple patch with Dettori when FD was riding the Ballydoyle batalions to sleep a few years back. Mainly thru well judged front-running/prominent rides. On horses like Enable. It was never going to last.

Plenty of occasions Frankie adopted the default position in races like the Derby. He had a very average record in that race. Ryan virtually got beaten on every Derby fav from 2016 til Auguste ROdin obliged so he is far from perfect.

Its interesting that Kieren bounced out of the gate and made most in the Cheshire Oaks yesterday on Queen of Thieves. Just as predictably the filly fell out the back of the TV screen up the home straight.
IMO its what would have happened to FOG if those tactics would have been adopted at Newmarket.

MJK08 May 25 09:06Joined: 13 May 10 | Topic/replies: 18,092 | Blogger: MJK's blog
In as much as I would be firmly in the 'poor ride' camp, to play devil's advocate is there an argument to be made that if allowed to continue riding as No.1 the jockey would be absolutely determined not to mess up again and would actually benefit from this episode?

My thoughts exactly.

the carry on and it will get better theory ,was tried to destruction last season, those are the important words in JG statement , ITS EARLY IN THE SEASON,so we,ve acted, I think this horse winning  the craven 4 weeks ago was for some people their last season hangover quote that had been in their back  pocket for 9 months, WE TOLD YOU SO, JG didn't fancy waiting possibly till next yrs craven for another WE TOLD YOU SO moment , its like sacking a football manager once you've made your mind up,do you give him the next 4 games which loon winnable on paper and then you cant act or act and give a new manager/jock  a chance of getting off with a few winners

FOG raced keenly early on in the race, maybe not as keen as in its previous races. But I would look there if you want an excuse for the defeat, that and the winner is the better Horse. Also, wouldn't FOG be finishing well past a slowing down RC after the line? 2 strides later and it still didn't passed FC. This tells me the horse was all out to get second and it finished in the best possible placing on THE DAY.

A total kneejerk reaction from connections to demote him from being 1st jockey IMVHO

Remember David Egan was made the fall guy after Mishriff's run in the Eclipse. That horse looked unlucky on the day but the "best available" didn't do any better on the Horse afterwards, in fact it went backwards for a number of the "best available"

I thought I spotted a quirky head carriage on Field of Gold.

shoemark said he reigned him back to far wanted to ride him 6 lengths further forward where Harrington's horse was
so he,s ran 6 f in the wrong spot
rode him to confidently
and wish hew,d kicked going in to the dip

for a jockey it doesn't get more of a car crash ride and only pulling it of the fire excuses it,  NONE OF THAT IS MY OPINION BUT OUT OF HORSES MOUTH so if you a have any problems with it,take it up with shoemark

ratty currently pointing out that anyone on here who think,s  Buick and shoemark went for their whips/horses at the same time, should have their accs suspended for their own safety

FOG beat Wimbledon Hawkeye 3 1/2L in the Craven....he beat the same Horse 5 1/2L in the 2000gns. So an improved run but not good enough to beat the winner (being keen early didn't help) That's the way I read the race and I'll leave it that. I hope KS isn't too hard on himself, he rode the Horse to the best possible placing IMO

not arguing rights or wrongs at the end of race but plenty on here if you go back  and read the early comments were defending the ride saying both jocks came off bridle went for their horses/whip at the same time, which is 100% plainly and obviously untrue a lie

If he had ridden the horse 6L further forward he would have been leading and would most certainly pulled his race away,1st timer

you must have missed the bit where I said TAKE IT UP WITH THE JOCK THATS WHAT HE SAID ON LIVE TV FOR ALL TO HEAR

If that is the case he is talking absolute cobblers

Whippin 1504 good post

Fair enough 1TP.  There's no way they went for their Horses at the same time. WB went first, no doubt with the intention of bringing that one's stamina into play and KS waiting as long as possible (the majority think too long) so he could bring FOG's burst of speed into play.

Thank Jim. It's interesting there's no mention of FOG being keen in the form comments. I believe he was, not enough to lose the race due to it, but certainly enough to warrant KS getting some cover for FOG early doors to help settle him.

Was just as keen in the Craven. Part of the difference as far as I can see is that in the 2000 it was running on its own in a crucial part of the race whereas in the guineas it was running through horses. I wouldn’t be surprised if Gosden said to Shoemark not to get boxed in as he looked like doing at one point in the Craven and that fuct it.

Sorry whereas in the craven it was etc etc

Good point CC.

Horse had taken races by scruff of neck before, the idea it needed cover is false, Only person that has mentioned winning on bridle is the jockeys minds eye of an excuse.
His excuse doesn't hold water imo and it was more than a mistake,I look at race after a few days and can only see a horse that was given no chance, the winner needed a pace horse and  company last furlong.

Fact he has in effect been sacked after things have been ruminated by connections suggests they think there is more than just being useless to it.

Rancid ride, just except it, the teachers pet types that came out straight after and defended it are absolute shyte 4 brains.

breadnnutter has lost none of his inability to read races

Leave the race reading to the brush sweeping teachers pets. I read horses. And at a push human nature via character, wether it's written word or listening and watching the words come out via TV.

I read horses and I don't need some no mark telling me whats what.

Best horse finished second and was never given a chance to win, JG areas with me and that's good enough 4 me, but you know better than him, away and eat dog poo ya cabbage.

Charming.

"Gosden agrees with me"
You  would struggle to read the Beano you clueless cretin

Dreadful way to talk tbf…

Strange individual iron…

Several threads on the same topic here and going round in circles. Shoemark admitted he was too confident and expected him to quicken like he did in the Craven. He started asking the horse for max effort about 10 seconds after Buick had asked his horse and that is clear from the replay...just count. Unfortunately he didn't get the immediate response he expected(but was too late anyway in hindsight), and that alone cost him the race imo. Would the greats that have been mentioned have done the same/similar and waited another 5 seconds at least, having ridden the horse to victory in the Craven and felt that acceleration under them ?....we'll never know.
Shoemark will hopefully take this setback on the chin and continue on an upward curve. Fingers crossed here. Strength and honour

I don't mind anybody saying it was an ill judged ride Aceform but to suggest that it was blocked beggars belief,
Breadnnutter belongs in a Secure Unit

Uptheass is a "race reader"....jesus wept

Done your Job Seekers Allowance breadnnutter?

layemall
08 May 25 19:29
Joined: 12 Apr 06
| Topic/replies: 1,710 | Blogger: layemall's blog
Several threads on the same topic here and going round in circles


Bravo layemail , they've weighed in and everyone has voiced an opinion , so there's only insults and tedium left.

Horrible ride only a brain dead cabbage like uptheass could excuse.

lochy lookin 4 a pal

He can now ride for Charlie Fellowes in the French Guineas this weekend. Hope he wins one or both.

‘More than just being useless’, are you seriously trying to suggest that Shoemark stopped the horse?

Never mind breadnnutter your new Giro will be here soon

That is exactly what the moron suggested Captain

Fair play never thought of that one, choose one of the most high profile races of the year, and where you get a large percentage for winning. Genius.

I am considering proposing breadnnutter for MENSA membership

Unfortunately,12 chimps beat him

This chimp would beat all of us.........it's amazing....

https://www.google.com/search?q=chimps+counting+test&rlz=1C1GCEA_enGB1140GB1141&oq=chimps+counting&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUqBwgAEAAYgAQyBwgAEAAYgAQyBggBEEUYOTIICAIQABgWGB4yCAgDEAAYFhgeMg0IBBAAGIYDGIAEGIoFMg0IBRAAGIYDGIAEGIoFMg0IBhAAGIYDGIAEGIoFMg0IBxAAGIYDGIAEGIoFMg0ICBAAGIYDGIAEGIoFMgcICRAAGO8F0gEJOTc0NmowajE1qAIIsAIB8QVQznllT8VDhfEFUM55ZU_FQ4U&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8#fpstate=ive&vld=cid:6e0e0de2,vid:PNrWUS13th8,st:0

race  dreading is in the eye of the beholder ,I don't bet in running
but  itv comms ratty in last 2 days has basically had 4 AOB,s winners 1st in trouble + Owens well backed winner in trouble,in range of bets 1 was on all 5 for little ,money thought 4 of them never looked like getting beat and even kilaman joro once in to straight always looked like getting there, ratty thinks he,s doing comms for the old blower service

Will leave you 2025 rejurgitations to sweep the muck under rug kilamanjaro.

What is a "rejugitation" breadnnutter?

do you mean regurgitations?.....I don't understand the rest ....just copy and paste the above link and sit back in awe and maybe learn something .

I am well aware of what the cretin meant layemall but I can't resist toying with the prick

My comment wasn't addressed to you and I haven't got a huckin clue what he meant. Apologies for any confusion.

BTW,the monkey was a smart bastard

The live interview he did with Chapman, where he admitted his error in public, was so stupid....The sacking is the right decision though....Its a multi million pound business...Shoemark has been the weak link in the chain too many times.

You couldn't make it up   

If only he'd done that Saturday...

Demotion was inevitable, Gosden gave him chance after chance and he blew it repeatedly over a lengthy period, it was never about one poor ride.

Racewatchers who couldnt see anything wrong with the ride clearly have little to no chance of making their betting pay. Spotting the poor rides is likely the easiest aspect of watching horse racing.

"Gosden gave him chance after chance...."

The juveniles of Gosden's were much of a muchness last season. Even the likes of Inspiral, Emily Upjohn, etc, were either quirky, regressing or disinterested with the game. I do not think it's fair to blame Shoemark for this.

Shoemark made a mistake; Field Of Gold did not pick up as he'd expected, and he paid the price. I can understand why he was sacked, just the manner it'd been done.

Gosden put the boot in even though he appointed Shoemark. I wonder how many other jockeys turned Gosden down prior.

Correct decision by the Gosden stable.

There is an interim where you give a new jockey time to transition from promise to deliverance. Unfortunately, Kieran Shoemark never leaped that gap.
Which is not to say he is a bad jockey just, he is not a wartime pilot.

Should never have been given the sack...Absolutely brutal decision by Gosden.

Massive kick in the teeth for young Shoemark.