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Its been a couple of weeks since the desperate approach of betfair to increase the liquidity of the markets by the introduction of expert fee/ premium charge etc , has anyone noticed any significant increase in the liquidity or turnover in any of everyday market on the horse racing as I cant see any difference on the football.
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To be honest though, horse racing has been cr@p recently.
Horse racing feels the same to me. No data to back that up though.
I have doubled my commission churning on football to try and compensate for the implied commission reduction.
I have doubled my commission churning on football to try and compensate for the implied commission reduction.
Only £14k last 30 days Hibby. -£4.5k commission churning and PC/EF.
why don't you go back to doing what you were doing before you realised UK racing was the golden nugget jamee ?
a few hours on the USA nightshift ?
a few hours on the USA nightshift ?
Jamee - out of interest how much do you pay for the gps data - is it weekly/monthly?
US markets pretty dead now Hibby. Much prefer sitting at my PC all day rather than all night too.
GPS data from TPD. £60pm-£100pm for the best latency subscription, depending on how many races you want to cover.
GPS data from TPD. £60pm-£100pm for the best latency subscription, depending on how many races you want to cover.
give me an example then...
not that i will do it myself tbh.
not that i will do it myself tbh.
I wonder how many subscribers they have on a similar package to yourself. I dont doubt your winnings figures, but there cant be many other users taking down similar numbers as theres not that many big slices of the pie to go around.
Jan 24, 2025 -- 4:50PM, HappyHibby wrote:
give me an example then...not that i will do it myself tbh.
You find two balancing markets where the combined book is very close to 100%, then back to win in one market and lay to lose the same amount in the other. eg you might back 0-0 correct score and lay
You find two balancing markets where the combined book is very close to 100%, then back to win in one market and lay to lose the same amount in the other. eg you might back 0-0 correct score and lay
rule 8c. Anyone promoting churning to reduce charges will be subject to a life ban
crikey jamee...
do you do that manually ?
or do you have a robot friend ?
do you do that manually ?
or do you have a robot friend ?
jamee, on your example you saved over a grand on charges from churning?
no idea why Betfair don't want folk doing that anyway ?
anything that creates liquidity / matches offers is surely only a good thing...
so what if the person doing it is just commission churning ffs...
that's madness from Betfair (but i ain't surprised).
anything that creates liquidity / matches offers is surely only a good thing...
so what if the person doing it is just commission churning ffs...
that's madness from Betfair (but i ain't surprised).
HH, i think it's clear why they don't like it. customer saves X, betfair earn 0
i get that part swifty...
but the other part is that jamee's loss bet is another persons win bet...
which creates commission also...
so jamee pays commission on his win bet...
the other person pays commission on their win bet...
what's not to like ?
i mean don't get me wrong i have no idea if it means Betfair get more or less money...
but for cryingout loud to not like someone matching bets is poor imv...
but like i say it ain't unexpected.
but the other part is that jamee's loss bet is another persons win bet...
which creates commission also...
so jamee pays commission on his win bet...
the other person pays commission on their win bet...
what's not to like ?
i mean don't get me wrong i have no idea if it means Betfair get more or less money...
but for cryingout loud to not like someone matching bets is poor imv...
but like i say it ain't unexpected.
if jamee didn't have some of these bets the money would probably remain unmatched at kick off...
is that what Betfair wants ?
mind boggling imv.
is that what Betfair wants ?
mind boggling imv.
Jan 24, 2025 -- 5:53PM, swiftynifty wrote:
jamee, on your example you saved over a grand on charges from churning?
Much less than that Swifty. My figures were only rough.
IMO Betfair will be in favour of churning due to the liquidity it provides. If they didn't they would have reduced implied commission to 2% which would have wiped it out completely.
Big Bash T20 cricket markets have never seen such volumes.
Jan 24, 2025 -- 6:22PM, Cardinal Scott wrote:
Big Bash T20 cricket markets have never seen such volumes.
To the positive!
in running horse racing is on it's knees for folk like me...
and i know i ain't the only person who sees it that way...
but who cares...
not Betfair.
and i know i ain't the only person who sees it that way...
but who cares...
not Betfair.
there is no longer a steady supply of losers coming on board Hibby, and what money is there is being snaffled by automation, combining bots and GPS
oh it's fkd for me swifty...
last legs stuff now tbh.
last legs stuff now tbh.
It is a shame, it was a great product, but BF cross-matching bots started the downfall, then the various other forms of automation. Plenty of people who could be blamed who have no interest in it other than for pound signs.
you'd be the same as me Hibby, bar short trial of data and drones, only really ever relied on eyes and 1-click, different game altogether now.
agreed swifty...
that 6:45 southwell...
a few years back i'd be sat here thinking i could win a few quid here (and did)...
now i'm sat here thinking i've got no chance and if i get anything it will be peanuts...
soul destroying tbh.
that 6:45 southwell...
a few years back i'd be sat here thinking i could win a few quid here (and did)...
now i'm sat here thinking i've got no chance and if i get anything it will be peanuts...
soul destroying tbh.
you can't win when they're up the striaight unless something dramatic happens and then that's luck due to the time differential, and hard to rely on drama to make it pay.
if i hadn't just renewed my Gruss i'd have called it a day by now tbh swifty...
i should've only renewed for a month but did 6 months so may as well carry on until that ends.
i should've only renewed for a month but did 6 months so may as well carry on until that ends.
oh you're spot on swifty...
up the home straight all i see is empty boxes...
chr1$t know where the liquidity comes from coz i don't see it during the race...
does make you wonder if it actually is real (the graph after the race i mean).
up the home straight all i see is empty boxes...
chr1$t know where the liquidity comes from coz i don't see it during the race...
does make you wonder if it actually is real (the graph after the race i mean).
maybe just try a completely different approach(which i know is difficult whe you've done it a certain way from year dot) for small stakes see if anything clicks. when the drones came in and the prices were not what you were watching, i trialled backing against what i was 'seeing' in jump races, e.g. opposing the one travelling best etc, hard to retrain the brain though.
even during the good old days, tracks like southwell (esp the 5f), newcastle, lingers were a hard slog. I hardly even bother trying on them nowadays, the chances of been right and getting matched are slim to none.
wicklow, that's ATR for you. Back in the day i used to love Wolverhapton now it feels about 1/2 hour behind!
agree entirely with your 18:57 post swifty...
i don't have the stomach for it anymore tbh...
when it was person v person it was at the very least enjoyable...
it ain't now...
it's a total drag now imv.
i don't have the stomach for it anymore tbh...
when it was person v person it was at the very least enjoyable...
it ain't now...
it's a total drag now imv.
you are correct Wicklow...
and swifty is too about Wolves...
if it was a Wolves evening meeting i'd be sat here thinking i've got a chance of getting a few £ tonight...
now i'm thinking if i get a fiver i've done well...
bl00dy awful tbh.
and swifty is too about Wolves...
if it was a Wolves evening meeting i'd be sat here thinking i've got a chance of getting a few £ tonight...
now i'm thinking if i get a fiver i've done well...
bl00dy awful tbh.
wolvo is still very do able, but its defo got a hell of a lot harder and smaller gains for sure. Of all the AW tracks I have always found it the most lucrative.
that's interesting I've not played it in yonks maybe there was period when the pics were even worse than now, i remember 4 across turning in and one box empty plenty of times, complete time waster. need to do any business far earlier.
only reason i play these night meetings is coz i've got nowt else to do tbh.
that won't be an issue for much longer tbh aceform.
HappyHibby • January 24, 2025 7:19 PM GMT
i find wolves impossible just about now swifty.
ditto Hibby, that's why wicklow's comment surprised me.
i find wolves impossible just about now swifty.
ditto Hibby, that's why wicklow's comment surprised me.
You’ll have to go back to the old pre days hibb….
Too much miserablism here.
Betfair have scrapped Premium Charge and reduced commision to 2%
stop whining and put your money in the markets.
Betfair have scrapped Premium Charge and reduced commision to 2%
stop whining and put your money in the markets.
as i said swifty...
if i play Wolves and win a fiver for the whole meeting i feel i've done well...
sad to admit it but it's true.
if i play Wolves and win a fiver for the whole meeting i feel i've done well...
sad to admit it but it's true.
no chance aceform...
i'll keep playing the tennis and maybe a few footy bets...
fun stuff only.
i'll keep playing the tennis and maybe a few footy bets...
fun stuff only.
You were a good judge at one time hibb pre punting…..maybe Newcastle soured you..
this is how good Betfair is now...
Sunderland dogs were abandoned 4 HOURS ago...
markets still up and bets going in occasionally.
Sunderland dogs were abandoned 4 HOURS ago...
markets still up and bets going in occasionally.
seen and heard too much now aceform...
wouldn't trust any of them to tell me the time of day tbh.
wouldn't trust any of them to tell me the time of day tbh.
Cardinal Scott • January 24, 2025 7:26 PM GMT
Too much miserablism here.
Betfair have scrapped Premium Charge and reduced commision to 2%
stop whining and put your money in the markets.
They haven't scrapped it they've just renamed it!
Too much miserablism here.
Betfair have scrapped Premium Charge and reduced commision to 2%
stop whining and put your money in the markets.
They haven't scrapped it they've just renamed it!
jamee1 24 Jan 25 18:06
IMO Betfair will be in favour of churning due to the liquidity it provides. If they didn't they would have reduced implied commission to 2% which would have wiped it out completely.
how?
IMO Betfair will be in favour of churning due to the liquidity it provides. If they didn't they would have reduced implied commission to 2% which would have wiped it out completely.
how?
Cardinal Scott 24 Jan 25 19:26
Too much miserablism here.
Betfair have scrapped Premium Charge and reduced commision to 2%
from what?
Too much miserablism here.
Betfair have scrapped Premium Charge and reduced commision to 2%
from what?
Commission was 5% and now its 2%
Unless you were foolish enough to select a different plan.
Unless you were foolish enough to select a different plan.
commission's been 2% + PC for a fair while ...unless you were foolish enough to pay 5%
Jan 24, 2025 -- 7:42PM, Rico-Dangleflaps wrote:
jamee1 24 Jan 25 18:06
Commission churning is only net positive because half of implied commission is greater than half of commission paid. Otherwise you would pay more in commission than you would gain from commission generated.
Cardinal Scott • January 24, 2025 7:26 PM GMT
Too much miserablism here.
Betfair have scrapped Premium Charge and reduced commision to 2%
stop whining and put your money in the markets.
ye, I'll stick a few more quid up in running to hand it to people who aren't even watching the race....er.....no thanks.
Too much miserablism here.
Betfair have scrapped Premium Charge and reduced commision to 2%
stop whining and put your money in the markets.
ye, I'll stick a few more quid up in running to hand it to people who aren't even watching the race....er.....no thanks.
sew your churning £20,000 on 2.5% implied to save £25?
ye, I'll stick a few more quid up in running to hand it to people who aren't even watching the race....er.....no thanks.
-----------------------------------------
exactly swifty.
-----------------------------------------
exactly swifty.
Asian handicap to normal match market is the easiest way to churn there is a bot that cross matches it so less work
Jan 24, 2025 -- 8:06PM, Rico-Dangleflaps wrote:
sew your churning £20,000 on 2.5% implied to save £25?
A bit better than that, but not far off. Plus it significantly reduces your gross profit which could come in very handy.
Jan 24, 2025 -- 8:22PM, Bellamy Road wrote:
how does it reduce gross profit?
Because you're betting into markets with a combined book% greater than 100%.
i must be losing the plot...
surely if you reduce your gross profit you're reducing your net profit?
and which markets have a % under 100%?
surely if you reduce your gross profit you're reducing your net profit?
and which markets have a % under 100%?
Jan 24, 2025 -- 8:47PM, Rico-Dangleflaps wrote:
i must be losing the plot...surely if you reduce your gross profit you're reducing your net profit?and which markets have a % under 100%?
Gross profit and profit after commission are both reduced. But, as long as the overround is small enough, then contribution towards EF is greater than the value of profit lost, leaving you net net better off. This is because half of implied commission is greater than half of commission.
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