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Could any kind member post this article pretty please.
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https://www.racingpost.com/news/opinion/comment/betfair-you-were-very-good-to-me-for-many-years-but-now-ive-had-to-turn-my-back-on-you-aogEJ9Q2ZcaP/
Betfair, you were very good to me for many years - but now I've had to turn my back on you
Mark Holder
Pro punter
I’m sure there’ll be no loss of sleep among Betfair’s higher management, but my days of using their exchange are over.
Our association dates back to nearly a quarter of a century ago. I don’t recall playing in their first race, the Oaks in 2000 when the matched bets totalled around £3,500, but I’m sure it wasn’t much later. Like a lot of punters at the time, I believed, wrongly, that I’d find an edge laying those runners I didn’t fancy. It wasn’t quite as easy as I’d hoped but, eventually, I found a profitable approach and with no referrals about bets or stakes it was very appealing.
The introduction of the premium charge in 2008 didn’t affect me as my turnover and the commission generated meant I didn’t pay it. This changed in the next few years as traditional bookmakers refused my bets with increasing regularity and I became ever more reliant on the exchange.
The big change came in 2015 when I first appreciated the opportunities of in-running betting. By this time there were numerous punters driving around in flash cars and living in mortgage free houses on the back of their in-running profits made throughout the previous ten years, although I’d taken little notice. That was until I read a lengthy thread on the Betfair forum written by a successful punter who was, apparently, making annual profits running to several hundred thousand pounds.
So, along with my form work, I started to bet in running. I had no fast pictures, it was all from the feeds (marginally behind live) provided by Betfair, and it wasn’t that hard to win. I was generally a layer, which meant I had a relatively small turnover, but the margins were high. This pushed me into the higher premium charge bracket and I was soon paying a 40 per cent “tax” on my winnings. While this seemed extortionate, Betfair was the only platform providing the liquidity I needed, so I had to suck it up and get on with it.
My approach was a straightforward one. I simply bet against horses (at prices near or below their Betfair SP) when I felt their chance had been compromised, either by an inadequate jumping technique or, more commonly, by the way they were ridden. The best bets were always against horses who made ground mid-race too quickly. Their prices tended to contract when they should have been lengthening.
Bizarrely, I was more successful on the Flat. This was despite taking no interest in Flat racing and often completing a day, having bet in 40-odd races, when I couldn’t tell you the name of a single runner. Pace and running position play a much bigger part in the outcome of a Flat race than they do over jumps and I think this factor helped me.
Of course, I wasn’t just paying the higher premium charge on my in-running bets, it was paid on all my transactions (provided I remained a winner), and this resulted in me having fewer wagers across the whole platform. It will not have escaped the notice of any regular exchange user that liquidity on racing has fallen greatly in the past few years. I can’t be certain of why this is, although perhaps the premium charge (as in my case), increased popularity of football betting, enhanced terms with traditional bookmakers and a failure to market the benefits of the exchange effectively will have all been contributing factors.
In recent times many professional in-running players have started to use drones; this has made it increasingly difficult for the casual punter to compete and seems to have driven many of them away, which has further depleted liquidity. It should be remembered that those subscribing to the drone services have to pay, so this is money that is leaving the arena, along with the commission and premium charge. (It reminds me a little of the time I used to play poker at the back of an Italian restaurant in Bristol. After each hand the “house” would take a few quid out of the winning pot and by the end of the session we’d all stare at each other blankly, wondering who’d won the money. We soon realised the restaurateur was the only man with a smile, and he hadn’t played a single hand.)
From a personal point of view, while I’ve made good returns over the past nine years, my in-running profits dropped by 50 per cent from 2022 to 2023, and this year were significantly down again. Had I become less efficient? It’s conceivable. Or perhaps I was now swimming in a lake with too many sharks and not enough fish, all chasing an ever-decreasing pot. Either way, the time involved meant it wasn’t financially viable and I decided a few months ago to hang up my in-running boots.
I’m still a formbook nut, but with reduced liquidity and a 40 per cent charge on my net winnings, I hope there are more favourable outlets for me to explore, so my Betfair days are sadly behind me.
My departure won’t make a jot of difference to Betfair which now, as part of Flutter Entertainment, is a hugely successful international betting business and epitomises how the gambling landscape is forever changing.
In the late 1980s I worked for rails bookmaker Stephen Little at a time when the racecourse betting ring was a vibrant and exciting place to be. The late John McCririck used to describe it as the “betting jungle”; perhaps if he was still with us, he’d refer to it nowadays as more of an allotment.
The son of a vicar with a smart mathematical brain, Little decided at an early age he wanted to be a bookmaker. With no family connections in the business, it was not going to be easy, but with determination and hard work he achieved it, first standing at Bristol dogs in 1970 where the average bet he took was a little over £1 and eventually progressing to laying huge bets at the Cheltenham Festival where, in 1996, he laid £120,000 at 7-4 on Sound Man in the Champion Chase (keeping it all as the horse finished third behind Klairon Davis). He did all this with no family money, taking no opinion, and never closing a winning account.
I’ve always found Little an enigma. I’ve been with him when he’s lost over £100,000 on a single race and his demeanour didn’t change. I’ve also been with him, weeks later, when he dropped a £1 coin in the members’ bar at Taunton and then foraged around on all fours, like a retriever searching for his favourite ball, until he located it.
He’s documented his life in a book called From Bicycle To Bentley, and the title accurately describes his mode of transport from starting out at Bristol greyhounds to taking on the likes of JP McManus at the Cheltenham Festival. I enjoyed reading it.
In the 80s and 90s I’m sure Little would not have foreseen the changes to the racecourse pitch rules which made his position untenable and led to him selling out to Coral, or the advent of internet betting and the abolition of off-course betting duty which meant the ring became a shadow of its former self. Equally, in 2010 I would never have foreseen the day when, as a still active punter, I would be turning my back on Betfair.
Betfair, you were very good to me for many years - but now I've had to turn my back on you
Mark Holder
Pro punter
I’m sure there’ll be no loss of sleep among Betfair’s higher management, but my days of using their exchange are over.
Our association dates back to nearly a quarter of a century ago. I don’t recall playing in their first race, the Oaks in 2000 when the matched bets totalled around £3,500, but I’m sure it wasn’t much later. Like a lot of punters at the time, I believed, wrongly, that I’d find an edge laying those runners I didn’t fancy. It wasn’t quite as easy as I’d hoped but, eventually, I found a profitable approach and with no referrals about bets or stakes it was very appealing.
The introduction of the premium charge in 2008 didn’t affect me as my turnover and the commission generated meant I didn’t pay it. This changed in the next few years as traditional bookmakers refused my bets with increasing regularity and I became ever more reliant on the exchange.
The big change came in 2015 when I first appreciated the opportunities of in-running betting. By this time there were numerous punters driving around in flash cars and living in mortgage free houses on the back of their in-running profits made throughout the previous ten years, although I’d taken little notice. That was until I read a lengthy thread on the Betfair forum written by a successful punter who was, apparently, making annual profits running to several hundred thousand pounds.
So, along with my form work, I started to bet in running. I had no fast pictures, it was all from the feeds (marginally behind live) provided by Betfair, and it wasn’t that hard to win. I was generally a layer, which meant I had a relatively small turnover, but the margins were high. This pushed me into the higher premium charge bracket and I was soon paying a 40 per cent “tax” on my winnings. While this seemed extortionate, Betfair was the only platform providing the liquidity I needed, so I had to suck it up and get on with it.
My approach was a straightforward one. I simply bet against horses (at prices near or below their Betfair SP) when I felt their chance had been compromised, either by an inadequate jumping technique or, more commonly, by the way they were ridden. The best bets were always against horses who made ground mid-race too quickly. Their prices tended to contract when they should have been lengthening.
Bizarrely, I was more successful on the Flat. This was despite taking no interest in Flat racing and often completing a day, having bet in 40-odd races, when I couldn’t tell you the name of a single runner. Pace and running position play a much bigger part in the outcome of a Flat race than they do over jumps and I think this factor helped me.
Of course, I wasn’t just paying the higher premium charge on my in-running bets, it was paid on all my transactions (provided I remained a winner), and this resulted in me having fewer wagers across the whole platform. It will not have escaped the notice of any regular exchange user that liquidity on racing has fallen greatly in the past few years. I can’t be certain of why this is, although perhaps the premium charge (as in my case), increased popularity of football betting, enhanced terms with traditional bookmakers and a failure to market the benefits of the exchange effectively will have all been contributing factors.
In recent times many professional in-running players have started to use drones; this has made it increasingly difficult for the casual punter to compete and seems to have driven many of them away, which has further depleted liquidity. It should be remembered that those subscribing to the drone services have to pay, so this is money that is leaving the arena, along with the commission and premium charge. (It reminds me a little of the time I used to play poker at the back of an Italian restaurant in Bristol. After each hand the “house” would take a few quid out of the winning pot and by the end of the session we’d all stare at each other blankly, wondering who’d won the money. We soon realised the restaurateur was the only man with a smile, and he hadn’t played a single hand.)
From a personal point of view, while I’ve made good returns over the past nine years, my in-running profits dropped by 50 per cent from 2022 to 2023, and this year were significantly down again. Had I become less efficient? It’s conceivable. Or perhaps I was now swimming in a lake with too many sharks and not enough fish, all chasing an ever-decreasing pot. Either way, the time involved meant it wasn’t financially viable and I decided a few months ago to hang up my in-running boots.
I’m still a formbook nut, but with reduced liquidity and a 40 per cent charge on my net winnings, I hope there are more favourable outlets for me to explore, so my Betfair days are sadly behind me.
My departure won’t make a jot of difference to Betfair which now, as part of Flutter Entertainment, is a hugely successful international betting business and epitomises how the gambling landscape is forever changing.
In the late 1980s I worked for rails bookmaker Stephen Little at a time when the racecourse betting ring was a vibrant and exciting place to be. The late John McCririck used to describe it as the “betting jungle”; perhaps if he was still with us, he’d refer to it nowadays as more of an allotment.
The son of a vicar with a smart mathematical brain, Little decided at an early age he wanted to be a bookmaker. With no family connections in the business, it was not going to be easy, but with determination and hard work he achieved it, first standing at Bristol dogs in 1970 where the average bet he took was a little over £1 and eventually progressing to laying huge bets at the Cheltenham Festival where, in 1996, he laid £120,000 at 7-4 on Sound Man in the Champion Chase (keeping it all as the horse finished third behind Klairon Davis). He did all this with no family money, taking no opinion, and never closing a winning account.
I’ve always found Little an enigma. I’ve been with him when he’s lost over £100,000 on a single race and his demeanour didn’t change. I’ve also been with him, weeks later, when he dropped a £1 coin in the members’ bar at Taunton and then foraged around on all fours, like a retriever searching for his favourite ball, until he located it.
He’s documented his life in a book called From Bicycle To Bentley, and the title accurately describes his mode of transport from starting out at Bristol greyhounds to taking on the likes of JP McManus at the Cheltenham Festival. I enjoyed reading it.
In the 80s and 90s I’m sure Little would not have foreseen the changes to the racecourse pitch rules which made his position untenable and led to him selling out to Coral, or the advent of internet betting and the abolition of off-course betting duty which meant the ring became a shadow of its former self. Equally, in 2010 I would never have foreseen the day when, as a still active punter, I would be turning my back on Betfair.
I’m sure there’ll be no loss of sleep among Betfair’s higher management, but my days of using their exchange are over.
Our association dates back to nearly a quarter of a century ago. I don’t recall playing in their first race, the Oaks in 2000 when the matched bets totalled around £3,500, but I’m sure it wasn’t much later. Like a lot of punters at the time, I believed, wrongly, that I’d find an edge laying those runners I didn’t fancy. It wasn’t quite as easy as I’d hoped but, eventually, I found a profitable approach and with no referrals about bets or stakes it was very appealing.
The introduction of the premium charge in 2008 didn’t affect me as my turnover and the commission generated meant I didn’t pay it. This changed in the next few years as traditional bookmakers refused my bets with increasing regularity and I became ever more reliant on the exchange.
The big change came in 2015 when I first appreciated the opportunities of in-running betting. By this time there were numerous punters driving around in flash cars and living in mortgage free houses on the back of their in-running profits made throughout the previous ten years, although I’d taken little notice. That was until I read a lengthy thread on the Betfair forum written by a successful punter who was, apparently, making annual profits running to several hundred thousand pounds.
So, along with my form work, I started to bet in running. I had no fast pictures, it was all from the feeds (marginally behind live) provided by Betfair, and it wasn’t that hard to win. I was generally a layer, which meant I had a relatively small turnover, but the margins were high. This pushed me into the higher premium charge bracket and I was soon paying a 40 per cent “tax” on my winnings. While this seemed extortionate, Betfair was the only platform providing the liquidity I needed, so I had to suck it up and get on with it.
My approach was a straightforward one. I simply bet against horses (at prices near or below their Betfair SP) when I felt their chance had been compromised, either by an inadequate jumping technique or, more commonly, by the way they were ridden. The best bets were always against horses who made ground mid-race too quickly. Their prices tended to contract when they should have been lengthening.
Bizarrely, I was more successful on the Flat. This was despite taking no interest in Flat racing and often completing a day, having bet in 40-odd races, when I couldn’t tell you the name of a single runner. Pace and running position play a much bigger part in the outcome of a Flat race than they do over jumps and I think this factor helped me.
Of course, I wasn’t just paying the higher premium charge on my in-running bets, it was paid on all my transactions (provided I remained a winner), and this resulted in me having fewer wagers across the whole platform. It will not have escaped the notice of any regular exchange user that liquidity on racing has fallen greatly in the past few years. I can’t be certain of why this is, although perhaps the premium charge (as in my case), increased popularity of football betting, enhanced terms with traditional bookmakers and a failure to market the benefits of the exchange effectively will have all been contributing factors.
In recent times many professional in-running players have started to use drones; this has made it increasingly difficult for the casual punter to compete and seems to have driven many of them away, which has further depleted liquidity. It should be remembered that those subscribing to the drone services have to pay, so this is money that is leaving the arena, along with the commission and premium charge. (It reminds me a little of the time I used to play poker at the back of an Italian restaurant in Bristol. After each hand the “house” would take a few quid out of the winning pot and by the end of the session we’d all stare at each other blankly, wondering who’d won the money. We soon realised the restaurateur was the only man with a smile, and he hadn’t played a single hand.)
From a personal point of view, while I’ve made good returns over the past nine years, my in-running profits dropped by 50 per cent from 2022 to 2023, and this year were significantly down again. Had I become less efficient? It’s conceivable. Or perhaps I was now swimming in a lake with too many sharks and not enough fish, all chasing an ever-decreasing pot. Either way, the time involved meant it wasn’t financially viable and I decided a few months ago to hang up my in-running boots.
I’m still a formbook nut, but with reduced liquidity and a 40 per cent charge on my net winnings, I hope there are more favourable outlets for me to explore, so my Betfair days are sadly behind me.
My departure won’t make a jot of difference to Betfair which now, as part of Flutter Entertainment, is a hugely successful international betting business and epitomises how the gambling landscape is forever changing.
Our association dates back to nearly a quarter of a century ago. I don’t recall playing in their first race, the Oaks in 2000 when the matched bets totalled around £3,500, but I’m sure it wasn’t much later. Like a lot of punters at the time, I believed, wrongly, that I’d find an edge laying those runners I didn’t fancy. It wasn’t quite as easy as I’d hoped but, eventually, I found a profitable approach and with no referrals about bets or stakes it was very appealing.
The introduction of the premium charge in 2008 didn’t affect me as my turnover and the commission generated meant I didn’t pay it. This changed in the next few years as traditional bookmakers refused my bets with increasing regularity and I became ever more reliant on the exchange.
The big change came in 2015 when I first appreciated the opportunities of in-running betting. By this time there were numerous punters driving around in flash cars and living in mortgage free houses on the back of their in-running profits made throughout the previous ten years, although I’d taken little notice. That was until I read a lengthy thread on the Betfair forum written by a successful punter who was, apparently, making annual profits running to several hundred thousand pounds.
So, along with my form work, I started to bet in running. I had no fast pictures, it was all from the feeds (marginally behind live) provided by Betfair, and it wasn’t that hard to win. I was generally a layer, which meant I had a relatively small turnover, but the margins were high. This pushed me into the higher premium charge bracket and I was soon paying a 40 per cent “tax” on my winnings. While this seemed extortionate, Betfair was the only platform providing the liquidity I needed, so I had to suck it up and get on with it.
My approach was a straightforward one. I simply bet against horses (at prices near or below their Betfair SP) when I felt their chance had been compromised, either by an inadequate jumping technique or, more commonly, by the way they were ridden. The best bets were always against horses who made ground mid-race too quickly. Their prices tended to contract when they should have been lengthening.
Bizarrely, I was more successful on the Flat. This was despite taking no interest in Flat racing and often completing a day, having bet in 40-odd races, when I couldn’t tell you the name of a single runner. Pace and running position play a much bigger part in the outcome of a Flat race than they do over jumps and I think this factor helped me.
Of course, I wasn’t just paying the higher premium charge on my in-running bets, it was paid on all my transactions (provided I remained a winner), and this resulted in me having fewer wagers across the whole platform. It will not have escaped the notice of any regular exchange user that liquidity on racing has fallen greatly in the past few years. I can’t be certain of why this is, although perhaps the premium charge (as in my case), increased popularity of football betting, enhanced terms with traditional bookmakers and a failure to market the benefits of the exchange effectively will have all been contributing factors.
In recent times many professional in-running players have started to use drones; this has made it increasingly difficult for the casual punter to compete and seems to have driven many of them away, which has further depleted liquidity. It should be remembered that those subscribing to the drone services have to pay, so this is money that is leaving the arena, along with the commission and premium charge. (It reminds me a little of the time I used to play poker at the back of an Italian restaurant in Bristol. After each hand the “house” would take a few quid out of the winning pot and by the end of the session we’d all stare at each other blankly, wondering who’d won the money. We soon realised the restaurateur was the only man with a smile, and he hadn’t played a single hand.)
From a personal point of view, while I’ve made good returns over the past nine years, my in-running profits dropped by 50 per cent from 2022 to 2023, and this year were significantly down again. Had I become less efficient? It’s conceivable. Or perhaps I was now swimming in a lake with too many sharks and not enough fish, all chasing an ever-decreasing pot. Either way, the time involved meant it wasn’t financially viable and I decided a few months ago to hang up my in-running boots.
I’m still a formbook nut, but with reduced liquidity and a 40 per cent charge on my net winnings, I hope there are more favourable outlets for me to explore, so my Betfair days are sadly behind me.
My departure won’t make a jot of difference to Betfair which now, as part of Flutter Entertainment, is a hugely successful international betting business and epitomises how the gambling landscape is forever changing.
what I never get in these tales,even after fdones,fast pics etc,you have to be at least a little bit savy/horse racing aware to back in running, so if its blatently obvious to holder that horses making fast moves mid race should be lengthing not shortening.who are the mugs lengthing them to let holder and apparently plenty of others to make 100,s of 1000,s each ?
the tales never stack up or beat the slightest in depth scruitny IMO,holder would get eaten alive against fast pic boys and they,d be picking up all the mugs shortening horses who in holders opinion should be lengthing before holder even saw the odds,
sorry if I've read this wrong or misunderstood
the tales never stack up or beat the slightest in depth scruitny IMO,holder would get eaten alive against fast pic boys and they,d be picking up all the mugs shortening horses who in holders opinion should be lengthing before holder even saw the odds,
sorry if I've read this wrong or misunderstood
1st time poster -- part of the conundrum might be that the fast pics boys were not very good at race-reading so were mainly playing at the ends of races, whereas the better race-readers were playing in the middle stages.
But in any case, from what people are saying, the drone pics are so far in advance that they have driven off all the minnows so it is just the sharks left betting against themselves.
But in any case, from what people are saying, the drone pics are so far in advance that they have driven off all the minnows so it is just the sharks left betting against themselves.
Holder is up his own ****
The RP love giving him publicity
The RP love giving him publicity
yep I treat all these books,articles etc in the same way I used to treat all those football hooligan bookings ,good read if your interested in the subject but filed under something that never happened as written
Yes. He used to run a tipping service a few years ago, he still might , though I don't know though.
Thanks oneten. Used to have a few shillings on the Richard Holder horses in the west country many moons ago
No worries twoboyz, a before my time so I'm guessing one of his better results must have been winning the triumph hurdle with Ikdam ?
Oneten, reminding me of ikdam brings back memories...
We are talking about 1989
I backed ikdam at about 50s for the triumph hurdle ante post
I also backed Beech road antepost at about 50s also for the champion hurdle
And Little polvier at 33s for the GN 2 weeks later, also ante post
I never had any other bets in those races, but didn't do any doubles or trebles
Would have been life changing sums if I had
But, luckily, I've let it go, thanks for reminding me
We are talking about 1989
I backed ikdam at about 50s for the triumph hurdle ante post
I also backed Beech road antepost at about 50s also for the champion hurdle
And Little polvier at 33s for the GN 2 weeks later, also ante post
I never had any other bets in those races, but didn't do any doubles or trebles
Would have been life changing sums if I had
But, luckily, I've let it go, thanks for reminding me
Oneten, reminding me of ikdam brings back memories...
We are talking about 1989
I backed ikdam at about 50s for the triumph hurdle ante post
I also backed Beech road antepost at about 50s also for the champion hurdle
And Little polvier at 33s for the GN 2 weeks later, also ante post
I never had any other bets in those races, but didn't do any doubles or trebles
Would have been life changing sums if I had
But, luckily, I've let it go, thanks for reminding me
We are talking about 1989
I backed ikdam at about 50s for the triumph hurdle ante post
I also backed Beech road antepost at about 50s also for the champion hurdle
And Little polvier at 33s for the GN 2 weeks later, also ante post
I never had any other bets in those races, but didn't do any doubles or trebles
Would have been life changing sums if I had
But, luckily, I've let it go, thanks for reminding me
Must admit Betfair need to promote the exchange more.The liquidity is really drying up.I think many people haven't noticed on US racing the market maker has left the building.It's 1.02 on all horses until near the off.Never used to be like that,there was always a market to bet on hours before the off.
It's only getting worse by the day.
It's only getting worse by the day.
Reg
I had Ikdam in L15, no other winners just a n/r to ruin the treble the odds!!
The Triumph was another of O'Sullivans crap commentaries, Ikdam never got a mention until 100 yards from the finish.
I had Ikdam in L15, no other winners just a n/r to ruin the treble the odds!!
The Triumph was another of O'Sullivans crap commentaries, Ikdam never got a mention until 100 yards from the finish.
https://youtu.be/9BO7WRvzfW4?si=DBWRICn_uaXEx5Dn
Must admit Betfair need to promote the exchange more
betfairs not betfair, it's flutter. They habe pp online, skybet, the sportsbook and operate over six hundred betting shops in the United Kingdom and Ireland. The exchange represents competition to these and as such they will never "promote the exchange more". why they were ever allowed to take on the exchange is bewildering.
betfairs not betfair, it's flutter. They habe pp online, skybet, the sportsbook and operate over six hundred betting shops in the United Kingdom and Ireland. The exchange represents competition to these and as such they will never "promote the exchange more". why they were ever allowed to take on the exchange is bewildering.
how many times you seen an advert on itv saying that last winner paid 11/2 but if you'd backed it on the betfair exchange you'd have got 8/1 ??
DG, I have watched the YouTube video of the race, and as you say, Peter O Sullivan doesn't notice Ikdam coming up the rail until the last few yards
One way for Betfair to promote the exchange more might be to highlight the Premium Charge - loads of our customers are leaving because we charge them more when they win too fast and/or win 250k. Seriously.
Talk of drone feeds, Carl the guy who runs the in play trading course has one around drone feeds apparently....sounds too good to be true if you ask me.
Somerset Sam, apologies, I didn't quite understand that post
Is it a betfair organised course?
I went to one at Ashton Gate about 20 years ago
Is it a betfair organised course?
I went to one at Ashton Gate about 20 years ago
This thread calls to mind an old nag called
Star Of A Gunner
Star Of A Gunner
good article, pretty much agree with him on the direction of travel. he failed to mention GPS which is now obviously even more important than the drones, a good race reader will be struggling.
Reg
I think Peter must have been commentating from his monitor, as very poor camera work focussed in close on the first three, then two.
I think Peter must have been commentating from his monitor, as very poor camera work focussed in close on the first three, then two.
Good article rings very true. Agree with Hulk too, PP don't want to grow Betfair just keep as it is so other exchanges don't become a challenger.
reg, incredible, though you'd have to go some to repeat selecting horses at those prices again. Little Polveir, Beech road, great races. I still remember as a boy watching Beech road and Morley street in the champion hurdle.
In the days when horses were tough and had strong constitutions and ran through the season and were kept on the go. No point standing them in their box.
When championship races had lots of runners which made them more exciting to watch. Triumph Hdle 27 runners - what a spectacle, that is what cheltenham was all about. The triumph had 12 runners this year, a damp squib in comparison.
In the days when horses were tough and had strong constitutions and ran through the season and were kept on the go. No point standing them in their box.
When championship races had lots of runners which made them more exciting to watch. Triumph Hdle 27 runners - what a spectacle, that is what cheltenham was all about. The triumph had 12 runners this year, a damp squib in comparison.
Oneten, about 3 weeks after Cheltenham was GN day at Aintree
Beech Road won the big 2m hurdle, going off about 10/1
Little Polvier won the GN at 28/1
Then to complete the Toby Balding treble on the day, Morley Street won the last race on the card, which might have been a bumper
I did perm them up that day, luckily
Beech Road won the big 2m hurdle, going off about 10/1
Little Polvier won the GN at 28/1
Then to complete the Toby Balding treble on the day, Morley Street won the last race on the card, which might have been a bumper
I did perm them up that day, luckily
Nice one, well done. Did you have a thing for GB horses or was it just a coincidence ?
Just coincidence
I was going racing 2 or 3 times a week around the South of England
I'd seen Beech Road win at Fontwell in the Champion Hurdle trial race and Ikdam run well somewhere... And Little Polvier had won the Scottish GN the previous year
All from memory, I hope my recollections are correct
I can't remember what I had for breakfast, but horses from 40 or 50 years ago stick in my mind
I was going racing 2 or 3 times a week around the South of England
I'd seen Beech Road win at Fontwell in the Champion Hurdle trial race and Ikdam run well somewhere... And Little Polvier had won the Scottish GN the previous year
All from memory, I hope my recollections are correct
I can't remember what I had for breakfast, but horses from 40 or 50 years ago stick in my mind
Haha, Im exactly the same re memory. Strange isn't it. Though watch a race and I can remember it for years afterwards.
Yes Ikdam was Holder, just thought I'd ask re GB as sometimes its a small world .
Yes Ikdam was Holder, just thought I'd ask re GB as sometimes its a small world .
That was until I read a lengthy thread on the Betfair forum written by a successful punter who was, apparently, making annual profits running to several hundred thousand pounds.
I wonder who put that up, a gold star to whoever can find that 2015 thread!
I wonder who put that up, a gold star to whoever can find that 2015 thread!
I still don't get it
you have to have a serious knowledge of Betfair,racing,in running to be backing horses in running 3,4,5 furlongs out because of a mid race move,if its blatently obvious to holder the odds are wrong it must be blatently obvious to 90% of those getting involved,so how do 90% make 100,s of 1000,s of pou nds worth of profit off 10% of so called mug punters,and that's before we get in to fast pics,bots etc which HOLDER says he doesn't/didn't get involved with,any huge rics wouldn't reach HOLDERS FINGERS for him to be able to act on
you have to have a serious knowledge of Betfair,racing,in running to be backing horses in running 3,4,5 furlongs out because of a mid race move,if its blatently obvious to holder the odds are wrong it must be blatently obvious to 90% of those getting involved,so how do 90% make 100,s of 1000,s of pou nds worth of profit off 10% of so called mug punters,and that's before we get in to fast pics,bots etc which HOLDER says he doesn't/didn't get involved with,any huge rics wouldn't reach HOLDERS FINGERS for him to be able to act on
5.02 Stratford 7th October
Watch this race tell me if you have bollox back that winner
Though the jolly is completely ponce
This race sums up in running mob
They deserve the trappings being in running winners
Winner hit all sorts of prices in running
Watch this race tell me if you have bollox back that winner
Though the jolly is completely ponce
This race sums up in running mob
They deserve the trappings being in running winners
Winner hit all sorts of prices in running
Somerset Sam 15 Oct 24 22:07
Talk of drone feeds, Carl the guy who runs the in play trading course has one around drone feeds apparently....sounds too good to be true if you ask me.
Hi SS
Could you elaborate? Don't understand what 'has one around drone feeds' means. Cheers
Talk of drone feeds, Carl the guy who runs the in play trading course has one around drone feeds apparently....sounds too good to be true if you ask me.
Hi SS
Could you elaborate? Don't understand what 'has one around drone feeds' means. Cheers
Fairweather - The lengthy thread that Mark Holder refers to was "Koo's Comeback Thread" which the forumite lead on has bumped to the top of the "General Betting" forum.
Koo was actually Kristian Strangeway (iirc) and I believe he was the son in law of trainer Brian Ellison.
An interesting read at times - but basically just the diary of an in-running player that had a time advantage.
Koo was actually Kristian Strangeway (iirc) and I believe he was the son in law of trainer Brian Ellison.
An interesting read at times - but basically just the diary of an in-running player that had a time advantage.
Yes, oneten. Thanks.
Trouble remembering what I went into a room for sometimes, so anything from 2008 is a bit blurry!
Trouble remembering what I went into a room for sometimes, so anything from 2008 is a bit blurry!
https://community.betfair.com/general_betting/go/thread/view/94082/23532258/...
1st time poster -- if Flying Dancer makes a mid-race move, some punters will back him because:-
1. He has accelerated
2. He has got nearer the front
3. The commentator has mentioned him
And this means his price will shorten, which means some punters will back him because:-
4. His price has shortened
And don't underestimate the amount of trading that goes on. Back shortener then immediately lay back at a fraction shorter.
What Holder did was take the view that even though Flying Dancer seemed to be improving his chance of winning, actually he was throwing it away by making his move too early, so would lay him.
There a couple of paradoxes here!
1. All winners will move to the front during the race (by definition, the winner has to have got to the front by the end of the race) so the mug punters do kind of have a point.
2. Even if Holder is a right mug who does not know which end of a horse to feed the polos, he will be right most of the time because most horses do in fact lose. It's just a question of price.
3. The best in-running players are the worst race-readers. If drones users are half a furlong in front of everyone else, they can just wait till they see who has won and then lump on at short prices.
1. He has accelerated
2. He has got nearer the front
3. The commentator has mentioned him
And this means his price will shorten, which means some punters will back him because:-
4. His price has shortened
And don't underestimate the amount of trading that goes on. Back shortener then immediately lay back at a fraction shorter.
What Holder did was take the view that even though Flying Dancer seemed to be improving his chance of winning, actually he was throwing it away by making his move too early, so would lay him.
There a couple of paradoxes here!
1. All winners will move to the front during the race (by definition, the winner has to have got to the front by the end of the race) so the mug punters do kind of have a point.
2. Even if Holder is a right mug who does not know which end of a horse to feed the polos, he will be right most of the time because most horses do in fact lose. It's just a question of price.
3. The best in-running players are the worst race-readers. If drones users are half a furlong in front of everyone else, they can just wait till they see who has won and then lump on at short prices.
I no all that but in running 3,4,5 furlongs ouyt is a niche market, and if holder says its bleedinly obvious horses making big midrace moves should be lengthing not shortening in price,it must be obvious to 90% of those getting involved,so how do 10% of the mugs provide enough liquidty for the other 90% not make 100,s of 1000,s of pounds bearing in mind if you believe HOLDER regarding fast pics,bots,drones etc etc he,s at the back of the queue of those 90%
Best not to take anything he (Mark Holder) writes in the Racing Post too seriously imo, he's obviously (like a good few others) contracted to provide articles for them periodically and has to write something. Obviously with his "other interests" in mind he also has to mention repeatedly that he is a longstanding pro punter.
I don't mind what he writes tbf (there are much, much worse contributors out there!) and sometimes he makes some valid/interesting observations. But with this particular article, you'd be as well stopping at the point where he (as a pro-punter) states:
"The big change came in 2015 when I first appreciated the opportunities of in-running betting".
I don't mind what he writes tbf (there are much, much worse contributors out there!) and sometimes he makes some valid/interesting observations. But with this particular article, you'd be as well stopping at the point where he (as a pro-punter) states:
"The big change came in 2015 when I first appreciated the opportunities of in-running betting".
1st time poster -- you might have misread what Holder wrote:-
My approach was a straightforward one. I simply bet against horses (at prices near or below their Betfair SP) when I felt their chance had been compromised, either by an inadequate jumping technique or, more commonly, by the way they were ridden. The best bets were always against horses who made ground mid-race too quickly. Their prices tended to contract when they should have been lengthening.
Nowhere does he say it is bleeding obvious, and the fast pics boys are what drove him away.
My approach was a straightforward one. I simply bet against horses (at prices near or below their Betfair SP) when I felt their chance had been compromised, either by an inadequate jumping technique or, more commonly, by the way they were ridden. The best bets were always against horses who made ground mid-race too quickly. Their prices tended to contract when they should have been lengthening.
Nowhere does he say it is bleeding obvious, and the fast pics boys are what drove him away.
sorry that's was my interpretation of what he meant / said, but don't you think 90% of those betting in the same niche situation as him thought the same,how many people think big mid race moves increase your chances of winning,and still doesn't explain how he beat fast pics than him,bots to this small pool of niche in running punters who thought big fast mid race moves mid race increased your chances of winning
I might just be unobservant but I don't see "big fast mid race moves" very often. I just see horses mostly taking their position in the race and staying there until the latter stages. Very occasionally a horse moves up to take the lead if the rider judges the pace to be slow, more often a horse moves ahead of weakening horses in longer races and sometimes a slow starter tries to get a better position, but almost all noticeable moves are in the latter stages. It is certainly possible that these latter stage moves get overbet, I don't know enough about it to say, but that isn't what Holder was saying he bet on.
Was good when you asked for say 5 about a horse and got matched at 16+
Then the crossmatcher reared its killjoy head and all you got was 5.
Had to go and spoil it didnt they.
Then the crossmatcher reared its killjoy head and all you got was 5.
Had to go and spoil it didnt they.
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