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"Amyndas is going to win it...Amyndas has won it". With the greatest 14/16f horse of my lifetime cruising behind. 
Fascinating but I'm not sure Phil Bull comes out of it very well. From the start he comes across as a golf-club boor banging on about politics, and later on seems out-of-touch on the racecourse, with one bookmaker clearly never having heard of Bull's claimed FPTP betting arrangement. Presumably Bull had retired from day-to-day punting and form arrangement at least a decade earlier.
One point that has just occurred to me was that Bull makes the point he had to sell his speed figures under a pseudonym or he'd have been sacked as a teacher, even though he was earning far more from betting than as a teacher. Why did he care?
He cared because he'd have been called up and sent to France with a rifle over his shoulder! Teaching was a reserved occupation.
One point that has just occurred to me was that Bull makes the point he had to sell his speed figures under a pseudonym or he'd have been sacked as a teacher, even though he was earning far more from betting than as a teacher. Why did he care?
He cared because he'd have been called up and sent to France with a rifle over his shoulder! Teaching was a reserved occupation.
Oops. Freudian slip! Form assessment, not arrangement. Bull was not fixing races. Luckily, the dead cannot sue for libel.
Bull didn't like the prog. Not surprised. Great racing man but came across as a champers socialist hobnobbing with the toffs.
A few here would have loved those days with all that snobbery.
I've read the biography by Howard Wright . He came from a very poor background and did very , very well -unclear as to how much came from punting and how much from profits from Timeform. He doesn't come across as a very pleasant person though.
His money supposedly came first from the successful punting.
"He doesn't come across as a very pleasant person though". Don't quite know what you mean there mano. But as regards betting you have to think you know everything and nearly everyone else knows nothing. Most pro's fit that description imo.
I watched it this morning on tv YouTube which I have just discovered quiet enjoyable .
Howard if you saw ardross you must have seen le moss
Howard if you saw ardross you must have seen le moss
yeah my fav races with those two jimnast. As Lester said there's a big difference between a two mile horse and a two and a half mile horse. Very confident 14f was Ardross optimum trip. Of course his class could allow him to beat Group 3 horses over much further. Lester also said Ardross was different class to Sagaro but I think we knew that. I do do think the two best Gold Cup horses in my time were Le Moss and Y eats. Couldn't choose the best.
howard19 Mar 24 15:00Joined: 09 Mar 03 | Topic/replies: 13,225 | Blogger: howard's blog
as regards betting you have to think you know everything and nearly everyone else knows nothing. Most pro's fit that description imo.
Possibly true howard ^
But an awful lot of degenerate, habitual, life-long losers also fit that description.
as regards betting you have to think you know everything and nearly everyone else knows nothing. Most pro's fit that description imo.
Possibly true howard ^
But an awful lot of degenerate, habitual, life-long losers also fit that description.
yeah TM but they would likely talk sh1te on most other subjects too. I don't think many would think that was the case with Bull. Manoleeds hasn't come back on this but I suspect he and he is not alone doesn't like people that come across like they know everything. I don't mind if they do know nearly everything especially if it's their specialist area.
I think some on here don't like the idea of successful punters.
Fair enough howard, each to their own but a little bit of humility, modesty or self-deprecation goes a long way imo.
It puts me right of when people are so definitive about a topic that is very subjective.
It puts me right of when people are so definitive about a topic that is very subjective.
I would agree howard it’s between **** and le moss as the two best stayers I would go with le moss probably an age think ,whilst I know ardross was 2 nd in an arc I think many forget le moss was 2nd in a st leger and the score between them was 3 0 in favour of le moss .
an extremely wise comment sparrow. It's one of the main reasons why Betfair hasn't "gone to the moon". If you lose it's directly to other punters. If you win with bookies you still take money from other punters. Unless people think bookies are going bankrupt all the time which of course they are not certainly the big names.
Mar 19, 2024 -- 4:00PM, howard wrote:
"He doesn't come across as a very pleasant person though".
I don't why the quote sometimes works and sometimes doesn't -anyway meant to say that it was in his personal life not his punting life .
"It puts me right of when people are so definitive about a topic that is very subjective". If by topic you mean betting I don't see how you could have a "problem " with anything a man that made half a million quid in the 50's says on that subject and how superior he feels to anyone else trying to make money betting on horses. But yes as my first post said there is likely a link with a person's character. Generally speaking I don't like teachers or landlords. Often people are both.
I would suggest that what people on the forum might not like are his politics.
yeah they might not like him being ( extreme ) left wing. OR they may like him being left wing but not like the toff social life rolls-royce and living in a "castle"
Should he have lived in a council house and deprived other people?
idiot fred. coward is a g1 wanchor and conspiracy mug. stfu you twerp
I found him interesting and his betting strange until I realised he was covering himself quite a lot by backing 2 or possibly 3 in the same race , his idea of value left a lot to be desired imo . Golden Fleece been a prime example , having had inside info from Robert and the horse going from twos out to 3 surely made him a value bet.I was also surprised how often he got it wrong even even watching it live on T.V..Ardross race been a clear example , still a brilliant mind when you think what Timeform ended up becoming, I was always perplexed about who he reminded me of until it he said George Bernard Shaw was his idol then the beard became obvious....
Byline: HOWARD WRIGHT
DICK WHITFORD, who could rightfully lay claim to being the father of modern handicapping, as well as the joint-founder of Timeform, has died. He would have been 93 on Thursday, and his health had been in decline since the death of his wife Julie 18 months ago.
Whitford invented a system of handicapping by ratings as an extension of his interest in logarithms and mathematics, and used it to occupy spare time after being called up as first officer on a hospital ship during the Second World War, when he was involved both at Dunkirk and in the D-Day landings.
He first went to sea after leaving school at the age of 14 to support his family on his father's death, but left the Merchant Navy in 1932 to become an advertising copywriter for the electrical company Ecko.
As the war drew to a close in 1945, Whitford arranged to meet Phil Bull, who had been publishing time figures for a number of years, at Newmarket.
An offer to join Bull as his assistant followed and the marriage of Bull's time
figures and Whitford's form ratings became public for the first time in April 1948.
The ratings became the basis upon which Timeform's international status, as well as the sport's current handicapping system, were founded, although
Bull did not publicly acknowledge
Whitford's significance and the pair parted company at the end of 1949,
when financial and business promises made by Bull to Whitford failed to materialise.
Whitford turned down an offer to work for William Hill and instead became racing manager and private handicapper to racehorse owner Jack Gerber, in what proved to be a most successful
period for his horses.
When Gerber returned to South
Africa in 1971, Whitford became The Sporting Life's Flat-race handicapper
until ill health forced him to retire in
1984. He and his wife went to Mallorca, from where they returned three years
ago to live near their daughter Sue in
Devon.
Whitford served as the Racegoers' Club's nominee on the Horseracing
Advisory Council - the forerunner of the Industry Committee - for over three years. Ironically, he was chosen to replace Phil Bull.
The funeral is at Exeter crematorium on Friday at 2.30pm.
Published March 2004.
DICK WHITFORD, who could rightfully lay claim to being the father of modern handicapping, as well as the joint-founder of Timeform, has died. He would have been 93 on Thursday, and his health had been in decline since the death of his wife Julie 18 months ago.
Whitford invented a system of handicapping by ratings as an extension of his interest in logarithms and mathematics, and used it to occupy spare time after being called up as first officer on a hospital ship during the Second World War, when he was involved both at Dunkirk and in the D-Day landings.
He first went to sea after leaving school at the age of 14 to support his family on his father's death, but left the Merchant Navy in 1932 to become an advertising copywriter for the electrical company Ecko.
As the war drew to a close in 1945, Whitford arranged to meet Phil Bull, who had been publishing time figures for a number of years, at Newmarket.
An offer to join Bull as his assistant followed and the marriage of Bull's time
figures and Whitford's form ratings became public for the first time in April 1948.
The ratings became the basis upon which Timeform's international status, as well as the sport's current handicapping system, were founded, although
Bull did not publicly acknowledge
Whitford's significance and the pair parted company at the end of 1949,
when financial and business promises made by Bull to Whitford failed to materialise.
Whitford turned down an offer to work for William Hill and instead became racing manager and private handicapper to racehorse owner Jack Gerber, in what proved to be a most successful
period for his horses.
When Gerber returned to South
Africa in 1971, Whitford became The Sporting Life's Flat-race handicapper
until ill health forced him to retire in
1984. He and his wife went to Mallorca, from where they returned three years
ago to live near their daughter Sue in
Devon.
Whitford served as the Racegoers' Club's nominee on the Horseracing
Advisory Council - the forerunner of the Industry Committee - for over three years. Ironically, he was chosen to replace Phil Bull.
The funeral is at Exeter crematorium on Friday at 2.30pm.
Published March 2004.
^ For anybody who like me didn't know this till today, the old timers could probably bring more light on it.
workrider , jim mcgrath was asked would Bull have liked Betfair? " very much " " why"? "Laying "
Howard , met Jim in Leopardstown several years ago and we had a brilliant chat from him looking for relatives in Ireland to finding out one of them was a witch, to him having £2,000 at 16/1 on Welds first winner of the Melbourne Cup...A very interesting guy , ladycarlas piece on Dick Whitford is thought provoking and sadly I never even heard of him till I read her piece , seems a much under rated part of Timeform from what she wrote...
yes apparently Bull offered him buttons for what was arguably the most important part of the job.
Dick Whitford's (flat) ratings used to be on page 2 of the life on the settlers page, if I remember correctly only using his basic ratings with no other filters for draw or going ect only lost 2%.
Workrider .
I used to follow Dick Whitford in the life well over 40 years ago.
I used to follow Dick Whitford in the life well over 40 years ago.
What has happened to onlooker who would know plenty about Whitford and his work?
Ronnie obviously read him myself without been aware who he was...
just had another look to check,my Mother walks past him holding her racecard at 14.27
Just looked Ribero1 I'm sure that must be a wonderful moment for you , what a brilliant memory for you to treasure...
I’ve was waiting for you to come on ribero wasn’t sure if you could get YouTube I’ve only just learnt how to get it,i think it’s one of the great inventions I’m sure it’s right up your street ,all those old races are on love it
There was something I noticed at York that I’ve never seen on a racecourse before it was filmed in 1983 so by then I had been racing at York quite a few times
Could you have a stab at it
Could you have a stab at it
Thanks Workrider,yes indeed,my parents weren't into foreign holidays and went to Goodwood and Ascot a few times but settled on Newmarket and were members for years,used to stay at the Bedford Lodge which Jimnast will know well.I'll have a look Jimnast.
Thought you might be!,obviously know all the books in the York piece,the guy who has the £100 on with Colin Webster before Bull was Lol Smith,lovely fellow but an absolute sufferer,very pally with Jimmy Scott of Stoute fame. Dick Warden was a nice old boy used to have his £100 on with Laddies and was a fair lead,his colours are still about,the Habton Farm colours of Tim Easterby.
Think Jimmy Scott was head lad when Shergar and marwell were there that’s a long time ago.
That's correct,Shergar was one of Lol's few success stories.
Should have added Colonel Dick owned Jobroke ,a proper Cheltenham gamble.
Had to laugh when sangster basically tells bull Golden Fleece is certain to win the derby so bull bets 3 against him,to be fair there were doubts about Golden Fleece getting to Epsom in fact hills offered a price about both the pope and Golden Fleece been in England on derby day ,the doubt about the pope was the Falkland war was going on.
Jimnast the worst travelling head lad for tips was the guy who worked for Cumani the same era as Jimmy Scott. Can't think of his name glad to say I never took any notice of them.
Jobroke would have been around an hour after dawn run had won the gold cup
Yes it’s Barclays Bank I’ve never seen a bank on a racecourse nowadays you never see a bank
Regarding YouTube I think it’s been going a couple of years now it’s very good no need for a tv licence really.
Regarding YouTube I think it’s been going a couple of years now it’s very good no need for a tv licence really.
Not sure it was the same one as I never knew his name ronnie
Jimnast.
Very very rare did I listen to a head lad but one I would be ginger who worked for Bruce Hobbs.
Very very rare did I listen to a head lad but one I would be ginger who worked for Bruce Hobbs.
Didn’t really see much of the Bruce Hobbs era ronnie but by an amazing coincidence I was at the Dante in which tyranvos ran in and would you believe Phil bull was in the lift tipping the horse for the Dante he got beat but I kept the faith and backed him at Epsom again he got beat which was a blessing as I backed him again at the curragh at 25/1
YouTube is an American online video sharing and social media platform owned by Google. Accessible worldwide, it was launched on February 14, 2005
Never realised youtube was as recent as that. Before that I was downloading music onto my computer and converting to CDs from such as Napster and WinMX.
You need a laptop jimnast and then those links are easy.
I have it on the tele sparrow and it seems to know the things I like so when I go onto it there’s always something there also I know how to type a request in like 1975 fa cup final and up it pops
I do also have a lap top but use an iPad most of the time as I’m not a good speller so it does it for me
Mar 21, 2024 -- 12:55PM, howard wrote:
personal life ? can you expand on that ?
You can buy the book on ebay for £3.50 postage included . I no longer have it but one incident was something to do with taking a secretary overnight for a business meeting and booking seperate rooms and when she went for a jimmy in the night, PB was in her bed expecting more than dictation.
A few mentions of Dick Whitford here, i also used to follow some of his 'form' selections in the SL. I was working for Fokker BV at Schiphol Airport in 1985, no betting accounts or internet and i really fancied Slip Anchor to win the Epsom Derby so i went over to London simply to back it.
DW had an article on page 1 of the SL that day, stating Slip Anchor would win the Derby by 5L. He wasn't far out (won by 7L).
DW had an article on page 1 of the SL that day, stating Slip Anchor would win the Derby by 5L. He wasn't far out (won by 7L).
About a week before the race a journalist asked Phil Bull who he thought would win the Derby.
"I'll tell you tomorrow after I've backed it to win 20,000 pounds." He told the hack, I think it was Roger Mortimer, the horse was Grundy. Don't know what price he got but reckon it was about 8. Green Desert went off fav with Grundy 5-1.
"I'll tell you tomorrow after I've backed it to win 20,000 pounds." He told the hack, I think it was Roger Mortimer, the horse was Grundy. Don't know what price he got but reckon it was about 8. Green Desert went off fav with Grundy 5-1.
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