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Morning All,
A friend of mine has a problem and needs help... As a lot of us seem to be men I thought someone might be able to offer some sage advice .
My friend has a naughty child that attacked a sibling so the father told his child off and spanked him and was reported to the police for possible child abuse / possible assault. The police interviewed him and as is normal procedure - in case he is a child abuser, to make sure the kids are safe, they banned him from going home to his own house where he lives with his children and banned him from seeing or speaking to his own children while they investigated whether an assault had taken place.
It seemed very draconian as it is quite obvious the children are very loved and cared for, well to do family, ponies, private school etc but the police said it normal procedure while they investigate.
Let me tell you a little bit about the Dad - he is closer to Dad of the year than a child abuser. He is his childrens best friend - his 2 young boys are under 9 and he does everything with them. Plays all the time with them, you can imagine how much running around 2 young boys do. He took them to school every morning etc, He's not a part time dad.
The investigation went on for 2 months - how it went on for so long as there was nothing to investigate I dont know, the police probably had more pressing things to deal with such as learning LGBT dance routines rather than trying to reunite young children with their loving father.
He was allowed a phone call to his son on his sons 8th birthday while the investigation was going on.
The police concluded their investigation and said no case to answer to, its all fine.
Normal Dad, he was reprimanding naughty child, no charge , not even a caution. Not guilty. Nada.
You can imagine how upset the poor children had been through all this and their dad was left feeling suicidal while this went on. He would never harm himself because he has young children but he spent half the days feeling like that, because he was being investigated by the police people must think he is some kind child monster - because there is no smoke without fire , surely ?
Believe me , my friend adores his kids and they him, he is just a normal dad who loves his kids to bits.
Because the police investigated possible child abuse, because he had spanked his kid, Social services are automatically notified and they do an investigation also.
This is where it becomes really wrong.
He has been falsely accused by social services of kicking one of his children as a form of punishment.
A social services worker went to the school and interviewed his 7yo son and claim he said he had been kicked by his father as a form of punishment.
You have to believe me on this - he has never kicked his son, so there is absolutely no way his son would ever say he had done. He would never say it because it never happened.
The social services interview was not recorded , no video, no sound recording and no responsible adult for the child present - as the child is a minor - I watch the cop shows on TV when the police interview a child they always say there has to be a parent / guardian present. I imagine the law for social services must be similar.
I asked his son "has daddy ever kicked you ?" and he replied "Never , daddy would never kick me, but there was one time when we were playing karate kicks in the kitchen and he caught me by accident and it didn't hurt, it was nothing we were just playing."
My friend told me the same story, his children wanted to play kicks in the kitchen and because the boy was only 7, all the dad was doing was lifting his leg over his son's head. The boys had watched a cartoon and were trying to replicate the kicks .
Their Grandfather knew there was no way their dad would have kicked his children, and he asked the children to see what they would say and the children told him the same story about the practicing karate kicking and that their Dad would never kick them.
An Uncle asked them as well and videoed the boys reply and again it is the same story , daddy would never kick us, we were playing karate kicks..
Social services asked their father for his version of events or if it had even happened. They filed a report stating that he had kicked his children
as a punishment and as a result he is not allowed to see his children unsupervised and is not allowed to phone his children and he sees them for just one day at the weekend.
He's even not allowed to take his own children in the car on their own somewhere, there has to be an adult supervising until he has undertaken a 3 month parenting course to make him a better parent.
We are meant to live in a country where we are innocent until proven guilty ?
How are they allowed to do this ?
Social services never contacted their father and asked if he had ever kicked them. They never asked him about it, not one question. They didnt even go and interview my friend.
They just filed a report with no proof, no evidence, from one person with no witness, no recording, talking to a 7yr old child, who was either confused by the questioning or the social services worker has probably not asked the correct questions and got as far as "daddy kicked me once" , but missed out the part "we were playing practicing kicks" then never asked how / why - so not heard his explanation.
It never happened, there is no evidence, no proof of any wrong doing and the children say it didn't happen and family members have videos of the children saying it didn't happen, but social services have damaged these children's and their father's lives irreparably and restricted their contact for absolutely no reason whatsoever other than a social worker has made a mistake.
Has any kind person any experience in anything like this or any suggestions what my friend can do to fight it ?
Thank you and apologies for the long post but I thought people need to see all the facts in order to offer advice.
What is most frightening is how us dads have zero rights and how easy it is for this to happen - it could happen to anyone.
A friend of mine has a problem and needs help... As a lot of us seem to be men I thought someone might be able to offer some sage advice .
My friend has a naughty child that attacked a sibling so the father told his child off and spanked him and was reported to the police for possible child abuse / possible assault. The police interviewed him and as is normal procedure - in case he is a child abuser, to make sure the kids are safe, they banned him from going home to his own house where he lives with his children and banned him from seeing or speaking to his own children while they investigated whether an assault had taken place.
It seemed very draconian as it is quite obvious the children are very loved and cared for, well to do family, ponies, private school etc but the police said it normal procedure while they investigate.
Let me tell you a little bit about the Dad - he is closer to Dad of the year than a child abuser. He is his childrens best friend - his 2 young boys are under 9 and he does everything with them. Plays all the time with them, you can imagine how much running around 2 young boys do. He took them to school every morning etc, He's not a part time dad.
The investigation went on for 2 months - how it went on for so long as there was nothing to investigate I dont know, the police probably had more pressing things to deal with such as learning LGBT dance routines rather than trying to reunite young children with their loving father.
He was allowed a phone call to his son on his sons 8th birthday while the investigation was going on.
The police concluded their investigation and said no case to answer to, its all fine.
Normal Dad, he was reprimanding naughty child, no charge , not even a caution. Not guilty. Nada.
You can imagine how upset the poor children had been through all this and their dad was left feeling suicidal while this went on. He would never harm himself because he has young children but he spent half the days feeling like that, because he was being investigated by the police people must think he is some kind child monster - because there is no smoke without fire , surely ?
Believe me , my friend adores his kids and they him, he is just a normal dad who loves his kids to bits.
Because the police investigated possible child abuse, because he had spanked his kid, Social services are automatically notified and they do an investigation also.
This is where it becomes really wrong.
He has been falsely accused by social services of kicking one of his children as a form of punishment.
A social services worker went to the school and interviewed his 7yo son and claim he said he had been kicked by his father as a form of punishment.
You have to believe me on this - he has never kicked his son, so there is absolutely no way his son would ever say he had done. He would never say it because it never happened.
The social services interview was not recorded , no video, no sound recording and no responsible adult for the child present - as the child is a minor - I watch the cop shows on TV when the police interview a child they always say there has to be a parent / guardian present. I imagine the law for social services must be similar.
I asked his son "has daddy ever kicked you ?" and he replied "Never , daddy would never kick me, but there was one time when we were playing karate kicks in the kitchen and he caught me by accident and it didn't hurt, it was nothing we were just playing."
My friend told me the same story, his children wanted to play kicks in the kitchen and because the boy was only 7, all the dad was doing was lifting his leg over his son's head. The boys had watched a cartoon and were trying to replicate the kicks .
Their Grandfather knew there was no way their dad would have kicked his children, and he asked the children to see what they would say and the children told him the same story about the practicing karate kicking and that their Dad would never kick them.
An Uncle asked them as well and videoed the boys reply and again it is the same story , daddy would never kick us, we were playing karate kicks..
Social services asked their father for his version of events or if it had even happened. They filed a report stating that he had kicked his children
as a punishment and as a result he is not allowed to see his children unsupervised and is not allowed to phone his children and he sees them for just one day at the weekend.
He's even not allowed to take his own children in the car on their own somewhere, there has to be an adult supervising until he has undertaken a 3 month parenting course to make him a better parent.
We are meant to live in a country where we are innocent until proven guilty ?
How are they allowed to do this ?
Social services never contacted their father and asked if he had ever kicked them. They never asked him about it, not one question. They didnt even go and interview my friend.
They just filed a report with no proof, no evidence, from one person with no witness, no recording, talking to a 7yr old child, who was either confused by the questioning or the social services worker has probably not asked the correct questions and got as far as "daddy kicked me once" , but missed out the part "we were playing practicing kicks" then never asked how / why - so not heard his explanation.
It never happened, there is no evidence, no proof of any wrong doing and the children say it didn't happen and family members have videos of the children saying it didn't happen, but social services have damaged these children's and their father's lives irreparably and restricted their contact for absolutely no reason whatsoever other than a social worker has made a mistake.
Has any kind person any experience in anything like this or any suggestions what my friend can do to fight it ?
Thank you and apologies for the long post but I thought people need to see all the facts in order to offer advice.
What is most frightening is how us dads have zero rights and how easy it is for this to happen - it could happen to anyone.
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Apologies, should say "Social services NEVER asked their father for his version of events or if it had even happened
The vast majority on here will be old school and will have invariably had a clip around the earole from time to time and probably worse than that at times.
That would be followed by "If you do that again you'll be packed off to the naughty boy's home and you wont see us ever again [might have been a blessing for some no doubt
.
Now they send the dads to the naughty boy's home.
20 something social workers with no life experiences stealing children on behalf of fascist social services organistaions.
George Orwell wrote 1984 in which children were encouraged to grass on their parents [prescient]
Wouldn't want to be a parent now althpugh I never resorted to walloping my children. It doesn't achieve anything in my opinion but there will be some that contend that it does and causes no long term emotional harm.
That would be followed by "If you do that again you'll be packed off to the naughty boy's home and you wont see us ever again [might have been a blessing for some no doubt
.Now they send the dads to the naughty boy's home.
20 something social workers with no life experiences stealing children on behalf of fascist social services organistaions.
George Orwell wrote 1984 in which children were encouraged to grass on their parents [prescient]
Wouldn't want to be a parent now althpugh I never resorted to walloping my children. It doesn't achieve anything in my opinion but there will be some that contend that it does and causes no long term emotional harm.
There must be a legal redress. Social services have to follow procedures and the law. I would go to speak to the police first to see if any laws have been broken. Then the local authority who may oversee social services . Find your local councillor who can investigate or ask questions in the town hall. After that he may need a solicitor which is a last resort but if he wins his case the Social Services will pay his costs, depends on the judge.
There may also be a social services ombudsman. Another idea is to contact his MP. They will always respond even though they may not be able to solve anything. They have access to the Minister , they may also give advice on which path to take. Last of all, and a longshot. Local TV .
There may also be a social services ombudsman. Another idea is to contact his MP. They will always respond even though they may not be able to solve anything. They have access to the Minister , they may also give advice on which path to take. Last of all, and a longshot. Local TV .
there is indeed a social care ombudsman? ring 0345 015 4033
Thank you brians, I will tell him to speak to the ombudsman
Tried the Ombudsman and unfortunately it is for parliamentary and healthcare.
Try searching… how to appeal against social services child protection decisions. There are several legal firms there who give fee advice.
I did as you suggested and google searched "how to appeal against social services child protection decisions" but all the things that come up are for cases that have gone to court but this hasnt gone to court and child protection issues, but this doesnt come under that either.
He has phoned various solicitors but they seem not to take on s.services
He has phoned various solicitors but they seem not to take on s.services
i would have been lifed off if someone ever reported me.
Welcome to Woke World. Get used to it, it;s going to get much worse when Labour is elected. The perps have human rights & the victims have none. tI's the feeling of inability to do anything about this type of injustice that puts the Grate in Grate Britain. I usually have a useful suggestion for most things but unfortunately in this case I have none & can only offer sympathy at the injustice of it all.
walofs slicer - you have no idea what is going on here and you would be the first one to ask for mass sackings of social workers if a child was harmed and there have been plenty. Like it or not the action here has been taken to protect children.
My friend has a naughty child that attacked a sibling so the father told his child off and spanked him and was reported to the police for possible child abuse / possible assault.
Who reported this to the police ? An estranged wife/mother ? If so, sounds like the woman is scorned and seeks revenge.
Who reported this to the police ? An estranged wife/mother ? If so, sounds like the woman is scorned and seeks revenge.
Yes Rico my friend is the same but they take notes on everything and it would go against him if he dares to disagree or shows any sign of not kowtowing to the system.
Slicer, I agree.
They are so woke they told him that it was illegal to smack his child and that it was a black mark on his file etc...
He told them that its not illegal in England etc and they were wrong. They didn't like that.
They told him if they were naughty you mustn't threaten them with punishments like no TV for a day because it might hurt their feelings..
I have small children and its how you control them half the time - if you're naughty no Tv is always a good one.
Slicer, I agree.
They are so woke they told him that it was illegal to smack his child and that it was a black mark on his file etc...
He told them that its not illegal in England etc and they were wrong. They didn't like that.
They told him if they were naughty you mustn't threaten them with punishments like no TV for a day because it might hurt their feelings..
I have small children and its how you control them half the time - if you're naughty no Tv is always a good one.
Best he takes his medicine and does his 3 month course to 'make him a better parent'.
He wont beat this fascist bunch as they have the law firmly behind them.
He wont beat this fascist bunch as they have the law firmly behind them.
Why is it that people choose to resort to insults when they disagree with someone. Looking at the many cases reported over the last few years social services are doing an APPALLING job. They don't protect when they should, & go over the top when they shouldn't. Protecting children-at the expense of ruining a family. Agree to disagree, but I won't stoop to insults.
Emotional abuse whether it is physical or otherwise is a crime in England and Wales.
Just reality
Just reality
Yes Leif, that is exactly what he is doing. BUT his children are suffering as is he - its heart wrenching for them.
He wants to clear his name as he has been punished for something that has never happened !
Social services dont want to ask him if it happened or not - they are judge and hangman without one jot of evidence .
He wants to clear his name as he has been punished for something that has never happened !
Social services dont want to ask him if it happened or not - they are judge and hangman without one jot of evidence .
who reported him to the police in the first instance ?
It's orwellian.
The father is the enemy who must be emasculated one way or the other.
As soon as you register your child you are handing ownership to the state. The state has their contract until they obtain a new contract when they accept a NINO.
The father is the enemy who must be emasculated one way or the other.
As soon as you register your child you are handing ownership to the state. The state has their contract until they obtain a new contract when they accept a NINO.
And I m sorry - how is it legal for s services to penalise him and say he is guilty of something he has not done, when there is not one jot of evidence ? Even to the extent there are video testimonies from his children which family members have taken and his children say he never did it.
The system is broken for an innocent dad and there must be many others in similar situations with unheard voices. Hence why I am hoping some on here might be able to suggest a good course of action for him
The system is broken for an innocent dad and there must be many others in similar situations with unheard voices. Hence why I am hoping some on here might be able to suggest a good course of action for him
u said he spanked his child, that's the offence in the first instance, u keep ducking the question of how the police became involved
Tame the Tiger - you hit the nail on the head. Ex wife trying to be vindictive..
A simple process in England is to challenge the Social Services in Court and first port of call should be a Solicitor not a last resort. A basic irrebuttable fact in English evidence law is that he who alleges a fact must prove it, the only exception is in defamation cases unless that has changed whilst my back was turned.
Elise, yes he spanked his own child - and NO, IT IS NOT an offence to do so.
He didnt "lose" it or get angry, just tried to show his son what it was like for his younger sibling as he was being constantly attacked and hurt by his older brother.
He has tried everything previously - reasoning, cajoling, TV bans.. and decided to try a different method this time as other methods had no success.
Child told his mother.
He didnt "lose" it or get angry, just tried to show his son what it was like for his younger sibling as he was being constantly attacked and hurt by his older brother.
He has tried everything previously - reasoning, cajoling, TV bans.. and decided to try a different method this time as other methods had no success.
Child told his mother.
How long have you been estranged oneten and how amicable is the separation? Any individual who believed they were 100% innocent would immediately seek legal advice and follow through with action not rely on a friend?
it can be an offence which is why the police investigated, the normal practice is to bring children's services in when the cps don't want to pursue, it doesn't mean there's no offence, it's the natural step to educate parents and to protect children
the interview with the child services would then likely take place with the mother present, my ex brother in law had his kids on a weekend, he smacked the younger one and the older told his mum when they got home, she reported him to children's services and they called the police and his outcome was pretty much the same as "your friend"
one thing he did was speak to nspcc, explain the circumstances and ask for guidance, that was taken in a good way and helped him, he eventually after a few months regained his weekends, he has other issues like alcohol which is why he ended up getting divorced in the first place and imo they did the right thing in making sure the kids were ok and that he got some help
the interview with the child services would then likely take place with the mother present, my ex brother in law had his kids on a weekend, he smacked the younger one and the older told his mum when they got home, she reported him to children's services and they called the police and his outcome was pretty much the same as "your friend"
one thing he did was speak to nspcc, explain the circumstances and ask for guidance, that was taken in a good way and helped him, he eventually after a few months regained his weekends, he has other issues like alcohol which is why he ended up getting divorced in the first place and imo they did the right thing in making sure the kids were ok and that he got some help
Cagliari yes probably so in "normal" law, but I am lead to believe childrens law is different .
I have read things in the newspapers where judges have secret hearings which are held in great secrecy and no reporters are allowed and the family members are threatened with jail time if they go to the press or breath a word about it even when there is a miscarriage of justice. The state wins. This is very concerning. There have been lots of articles in the mainstream press :
This is a small part of an article by a journo who is trying to expose some of the bad things that are happening to parents when some of these secret cases go to court :
The rationale for keeping family court hearings behind closed doors is that children’s right to privacy has to be protected. This is a good reason, with very considerable weight.
However, I have regularly observed this law – which is meant to protect children’s interests – working conveniently to hide poor practice. In some cases it has even prevented the public from knowing about unlawful action by the state that has breached people’s human rights, damaging children and their parents in ways from which they can never recover."
You cannot fight the system - THEY do not like it.
I have read things in the newspapers where judges have secret hearings which are held in great secrecy and no reporters are allowed and the family members are threatened with jail time if they go to the press or breath a word about it even when there is a miscarriage of justice. The state wins. This is very concerning. There have been lots of articles in the mainstream press :
This is a small part of an article by a journo who is trying to expose some of the bad things that are happening to parents when some of these secret cases go to court :
The rationale for keeping family court hearings behind closed doors is that children’s right to privacy has to be protected. This is a good reason, with very considerable weight.
However, I have regularly observed this law – which is meant to protect children’s interests – working conveniently to hide poor practice. In some cases it has even prevented the public from knowing about unlawful action by the state that has breached people’s human rights, damaging children and their parents in ways from which they can never recover."
You cannot fight the system - THEY do not like it.
Correct Elise, CPS are the ultimate decision makers in criminal matters, just because they do not pursue a case does not mean no offence was apparent, that said they would be guided by the recommendations from the Police, less than 90% chance of a conviction and it would be NFA. Likely that most incidents like the OP suggests would be NFA'd.
Even going back to judges rules doubtful the Police would press a case but Social Services have barely changed in many decades and still miss "Obvious" abuse cases but always "Learn from their mistakes". Sat through many case studies and investigated actual abuse, Social Services are not a law unto themselves and if they have no evidence as the OP suggests, they have not a leg to stand on.
Even going back to judges rules doubtful the Police would press a case but Social Services have barely changed in many decades and still miss "Obvious" abuse cases but always "Learn from their mistakes". Sat through many case studies and investigated actual abuse, Social Services are not a law unto themselves and if they have no evidence as the OP suggests, they have not a leg to stand on.
you can fight the system if there's injustice, but if the initial issue is smacking a child then they will go from there and you're on a loser before you start unless there's reasonable grounds
in my ex bil's case there wasn't and if the family had have had their way he wouldn't have got an easy ride, the reason he got his weekends back was because the two boys said they wanted to see him and that they'd tell their mum if it happened again, he didn't re-offend on the hitting thing but he was seen with them in his car whilst drunk and was arrested on drink drive after he'd dropped them back at his mums one sunday night
in my ex bil's case there wasn't and if the family had have had their way he wouldn't have got an easy ride, the reason he got his weekends back was because the two boys said they wanted to see him and that they'd tell their mum if it happened again, he didn't re-offend on the hitting thing but he was seen with them in his car whilst drunk and was arrested on drink drive after he'd dropped them back at his mums one sunday night
Yes Cagliari, he has gone down the route with solicitors. Well into 5 figs.
No its not me, I thought some people might think it a hypothetical "friend" but he is a good friend who I have known a long time as we have children similar age so I could relate to it. For the grace of God it could be me sort of thing.
Having sat there with him through this I just wanted to try and help as he has hit a stumbling block re Ss and I know a a lot of us on here are middle aged men so some might have experience of this or know of similar experiences - such as Elise with his ex bro in law.
No its not me, I thought some people might think it a hypothetical "friend" but he is a good friend who I have known a long time as we have children similar age so I could relate to it. For the grace of God it could be me sort of thing.
Having sat there with him through this I just wanted to try and help as he has hit a stumbling block re Ss and I know a a lot of us on here are middle aged men so some might have experience of this or know of similar experiences - such as Elise with his ex bro in law.
It is a simple thing to take an accuser to Court and make the burden of proof theirs so why has your friend not done so, does not even need a Solicitor?
Cagliari - " if they have no evidence as the OP suggests, they have not a leg to stand on."
You have my word on it as I have seen the emails from SS to him. He has asked them what evidence they have and they said none !! Which is why he is fighting it because it never happened.
Would you accept it if you hadn't done something you were accused of and you were innocent ?
I would fight it too especially if it involved my children.
You have my word on it as I have seen the emails from SS to him. He has asked them what evidence they have and they said none !! Which is why he is fighting it because it never happened.
Would you accept it if you hadn't done something you were accused of and you were innocent ?
I would fight it too especially if it involved my children.
What is your friend seeking oneten, retribution or just clearing his name from the accusation made by Social Services or is it a request for help to get/ re-instate custody?
your friend probably won't like it but the fastest way to get them off his case if he's done nothing wrong is the mother, because reading between your posts whether she has a grievance or is protecting her kids it will be way easier to sort with her on board supporting him
if she doesn't believe him or there's more to the story, or if he has history of domestic violence then he's going to go through a fair bit of aggro
if she doesn't believe him or there's more to the story, or if he has history of domestic violence then he's going to go through a fair bit of aggro
A much easier way forward Elise which includes the mother but reluctant at this stage to advise until knowing the motivation.
BTW oneten, if there are emails as you suggest then either your friend is stupid or hiding something?
Nothing untoward.
NO drinking, No drugs, No violence, happy kids who have a great loving relationship with their Dad.
The issue is with sservices and trying to clear this up. It doesnt involve the wife as she has no input on the outcome.
Please remember - I have seen the emails where SS say they have no proof and where he has been saying he hasnt done anything.
Sometimes people tell the truth and the system fails them and as innocent people they get penalised like he has.
That is frightening and is why I have put it on here.
NO drinking, No drugs, No violence, happy kids who have a great loving relationship with their Dad.
The issue is with sservices and trying to clear this up. It doesnt involve the wife as she has no input on the outcome.
Please remember - I have seen the emails where SS say they have no proof and where he has been saying he hasnt done anything.
Sometimes people tell the truth and the system fails them and as innocent people they get penalised like he has.
That is frightening and is why I have put it on here.
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