Racing has buried Bryony Frost - The Times article

Callan  and Dunne  are    a  pair of  .....

Rachael Blackmore winning the grand National and Cheltenham gold cup buried byrony frost. Just as byrony had previously taken over from lizzie Kelly as the queen of  the jumps. It seems racing only has room for one female jumps superstar at a time!

To be fair to Byrony Frost, I thought she was a good jockey and deserved all her plaudits at the time. I think she got quite a bad injury which she continued to ride through but kept quiet about. I think that was a bigger factor in her dip in form.

Still think she is decent enough jockey, but what does the writer of that article think she should be riding? Must be hard for any jump jockey to get rides in UK at present. Unless you’re the number one to one of the big stables, you’re probably going to struggle.

theres no way frost would travel to say hexam.catt etc for one 16,s shot for a northern trainer even if offered. she wants/thinksa she should be getting rides in the best races, point and shoot on a couple of odds on pumkipn novice hurdlers at win is something 99% of jockes in weighing room could manage

Cracking article- seems racing hasn't moved on.sad to see dunne getting used by henderson.she'll come out of it better and stronger.hopefully she'll go on to train horses. Dunne can go back to bullying women in other parts of his life.

The point about her riding career since is missing the real point in all of this which is, regardless of the rides she is or isn't getting, there seems to be this menacing undercurrent from within that says that she is the trouble maker for blowing the whistle and that the weighing room should be self policed!!!

Fair enough, who policed Dunne then? because all the jellyfish that witnessed what was going on didn't. If someone had policed it then it would have saved Frost, Dunne and the rest of us from the ordeal.

This whole case had nothing to do with her riding ability,it was all to do with many people who didn't like her ott nature when riding big winners and the limelight and adulation she received and yes, probably revelled in, it was about one jockey's inability to keep his feelings and jealousy in check, and about other people who witnessed it but were too gutless to take on Dunne or had similar feelings toward her and didn't give a feck.

Plenty who still want to criticize her are mistakenly lumping her in with the nuts who chuck paint or who glue themselves to the roads and would probably have to have a long lie down whenever a female pundit appears on the T.V., they see it as another example of modern society going mad.

This issue is none of that.

Good post duffy.

Agreed,good post duffy,some seem to have missed the point

Spot on Duffy. She has distracted attention from the wider picture though and, as I said earlier in this thread, the progress of other women riders is slow and there is no doubt that some owners and trainers would not use a woman jockey how ever good they were. Anyone have an answer to my question as to who is second or third to Rachael in Ireland? The only Irish women professionals I can find are Sarah Kavanagh who has ridden 2 winners and Caragh Monaghan with one. Both conditionals.
You don't have to like people to give them respect. Ex England footballer Eni Aluko has left the country after online threats left her afraid for her safety and one of the main culprits apparently is the odious Joey Barton who despite prosecutions for violence against women continues to get jobs in football and continues with his illegal behaviour.

FROST v DUNNE the next instalment 1230 Southwell.

its you who,s mistakenly read the article,the article is all about the case costing frost rides and mottershead etc who,d love it to be so, have gone through the numbers and found it simply isnt true,if her rides are down a little its because of
long term injury
freedie ginger been used by pumpkin
fropst missingf 2 rides /winners last week for whatever reason,
rasther than the case

She reported a bully who threatened her in a dangerous sport and spoke to her like dirt…..so what did the girl do wrong by reporting the toilet….ffs

The story will rumble on and on because the media love it to bits……

I would add if she was my daughter the media would have a story to tell……

Any decent father would agree 100%…..

McCoy and Co are gutless imv….100% and any other creep that thinks it’s ok and shouldn’t be brought to the table…..

and your the 5oth person given the floor,to tell us which trainer,s/owners arnt using frost that were using her pre dunn case
JUST ONE FOOKING NAME,PLEASE,PLEASE ONE FOOKING NAME ?

You would find they all continue to use her.I think she is winding down her career and will retire from the saddle soon.

Check the mounts the toilet is getting….not a lot apart from the scrap with the odd one thrown in

V Williams seldom uses him…

Ironically the machismo on here in all the 'what I'd do to Dunne' and 'if it was my wife' etc etc is very sexist and prehistoric - exactly the type of thing that many women campaign against - they want to be equal to men, and sometimes to actually be men.

I would think it was a natural reaction to any true stamp of MAN! to protect his daughter

Even the b sack Rico would agree

old fashioned views form, according to many women themselves.....

What would you expect stu ? Well done toilet fancy a beer ffs….

Rivalry continues in the first at Southwell.

Dunne on Daranova (10.5) , Frost on Eclair de Guye (6.0)

Dunnes only ride on the card, Frost got one in the last too.

If she'd had any balls she should have told the runt Dunne to FO and do one, then got on with her job - as I'm sure has happened a vast number of times between two jockeys.

Her father Jimmy Frost tried to get them into a meeting to sort things out but Bryony was the one who refused.....

All in the upbringing I suppose not to abuse a female unless she was like some of the ones locked up for heinous crimes to children….

A certain ex champion flat jockey ruled the weighing room for years (in my humble opinion)and the media thought he was god ffs

You sound like the Uk police stu….

You ok ?

Any mental issues ?

Mind the head getting into the car….

Cuffs ok,not hurting ?

Sugar in the coffee ?

Ffs

Erm, no, I was talking about these two jockeys, but whatever you want to think. Anyway, on to more important issues today, there's racing.

She just beat him there, fairplay.

GL on the punting front…

plenty of replies,100,s of words
but still no one can put up a single owner/trainer who used frost before the case and not using her now

dunne bullied twister in to defeat there

He ain’t the nicest but he’s a horseman

Loyal Honcho loves women.  Nap down.

"some seem to have missed the point".

The point is quite simple.  The female jockey went outside of Racing to deal with a Racing issue when she didn;t have to.  That is the point.
She is trouble and Racing knows it.

LoyalHoncho -- "The female jockey went outside of Racing to deal with a Racing issue when she didn;t have to."

No she didn't. Frost complained to the BHA, which is inside racing.

A threat to life, bullying, not to mention whatever category you care to put the towel dropping incident in to.........a racing issue?

fook me Honcho, that does sound rather misogynistic.

A racing issue is not pulling your whip through correctly or fences being omitted because of low sun, this issue is more of something that should have been prosecuted through the court system.

there seems to be this menacing undercurrent from within that says that she is the trouble maker for blowing the whistle

aside from in your head, where are you seeing this?

i think she went to the pja even before the bha, rem dale posting something on it prior to the case and they updated their code of conduct well before it hit the headlines

It is evidently correlation not causation, unless someone can actually produce any tangible evidence otherwise. She rides for the same people she always did. The marquee horses have moved on, Cobden is a superior jockey and will nearly always get first pick. And she has had quite lot of time on the injury list.

Cider,

I'll explain it to you..the fact that there isn't a 100% support for her on what she was subjected to is where I'm getting it from, not from sympathy and support for her based on whether you like her or not, but solely on what she was put through.

Again she was put through a threat to life, bullying, not to mention whatever category you care to put the towel dropping incident in to, there is no whataboutery to it, it's quite simply about right and wrong.

It doesn't make any sense, what you are saying. What kind of support are you hoping for?

Nobody knows exactly what went on, certainly not on this forum. Eventually her allegations got a hearing, a decision was made and action taken. I'm not clear on what other expectations you have? Perhaps jocking Nico off for the CH lap of honour in March would satisfy you!

I'm not talking about her rides issue, I said that earlier, it's the fact that there is a dismissive nature to her plight at the time and it continues, this thread proves that, you display that yourself, "nobody knows what went on",you're trying to cast doubt on what went on, why for heavens sake?

I wonder what a poll would reveal if the question was, Do you like Bryony Frost and what are your thoughts on the Frost Dunne case?

If people answered honestly I think you'd see a strong correlation between those who dislike her and who also have negativity with her in the case.

She's not even my cup of tea, I roll my eyes at all the cheerleading just like many others do but I can disassociate those feelings to looking at what she went through and that is what a lot of people aren't doing.

Said before if you substituted Blackmore for Frost this would have played out completely differently, it would have been nipped in the bud and Dunne would have been hounded out of the game would be my guess but because Frost annoys some people with how she carries herself she wasn't afforded the same protection

With respect, you're just puffing out hot air (as well as misquoting me!).

Grievance happens at the workplace all the time. There was a hearing, a decision was made and action taken. Several years ago.

I'm still not clear on what you see as would be different now if she had not have reported her allegations. The world has moved on. I quote you again - menacing undercurrent from within that says that she is the trouble maker for blowing the whistle.

I ask again, what's your evidence of this?

Good series of posts Duffy, more power to you. Keep calling this cr@p out for what it is.

It's the brave new world, strontium. Feelings trump facts. duffy feels that Bryony is suffering from the menacing undercurrent from within, so it must be true :)

It could be just lucky that she landed on a couple of career defining horses. And is struggling to land on another one, much like the other 98% of the weighing room.

frost,s rides are like houses,
can afford one on teesside but wants one off chelt high st
she wouldnt swap 5 rides at catt/hex for narthern trainers for a nichols /whadam  ride at huntington
she thinks she should be getting rides in big sat meets IMO

Cider, I have no evidence about what's happening "within" racing other than what I read in the press. But there's plenty of evidence in this thread about the sort of attitudes that some race fans have, which suggests that Duffy might well be right. 

It's quite simple really. She was bullied at work, she complained in a perfectly appropriate way, and her case was proved in court. Several of her senior colleagues stood against her in the tribunal, and their evidence was implicitly rejected by it. High-profile pundits have publicly criticized her. As Duffy says, the number of rides she is getting now is beside the point - the point is that "racing" did not support her when it absolutely should have done. Bullying in the workplace is not acceptable.

I bet she couldn’t give a monkey’s and never gives the toilet a second thought or glance…

Probably retire this year imo….

Her case was never heard in a court Strontium and unlike Duffy suggested never would have been nor does he speak for all who did not or do not support Frost and may not be on the side of Dunne?

Forgive the loose language, it was heard by an independent tribunal.

I suspect Duffy speaks for Duffy.

It seems there is no evidence, strontium. Not even conjecture or hearsay, such as an owner saying they don't want her riding their horses. No surprise therefore that duffy has avoided putting forward any so far, as it doesn't exist.

Yes the tribunal believed her account. This was dealt with several years ago. All we have here is a writer with an axe to grind, adding 2+2 and coming up with 5.

Yes Cider, it's fair to say that not everything on this thread relates to the Times article itself. But this is a discussion forum.

The Times article triggered the thread. But it is symptomatic for me anyway of the way general society is going. Judgement is made purely on the basis of immutable characteristics. Most of the white knights on the thread are going along with the perception that BF is being badly treated by the (male dominated) horse racing inner sanctum. As I touched on, feelings over facts. And would be quite happy to see better male counterparts jocked off to put her back in the big time as she 'deserves' it after the bullying allegations.

Personally I am non committal over the actual allegations and the way it played out. Having been involved in plenty of employment spats during my career, and he said she said type of stuff. However a determination was made and punishment meted out. It can't be proven for definite either way, but it doesn't seem to me that her career would be doing better or worse if that had not happened. Quite often it is down to luck with jockeys and she got associated specifically with a special horse in Frodon. Most jockeys won't get on something as good as that in their entire careers, and she may well not get on another one. The same as dozens and dozens of male jockeys.

Bryony Frost lost over a dozen rides after Christmas due to abandonments, at places like Wetherby, Doncaster and Fakenham. For someone based in Somerset/Wiltshire, it shows she'll travel to get rides. Also she has had two injuries. She has said nothing to bring all this up again, it is nonsense brought on by a journo. I believe, come the end of the season she will have had 30 - 40 winners, not too shabby. She is still popular with racegoers and particularly the youngsters. Also, when you see her at the races laughing with other jockeys, it seems to me that the Dunne affair is forgotten about, as it should be.

If I'm not mistaken the present stable jock at Nicholls whose name escapes me at the moment was not complimentary or supportive of her decision to go the BHA route. On the other hand I think (glad to be proven wrong) a 'gofundme' page was set-up for the bully.

Most will likely have forgotten but I had a quick look to see how the partnership began with Frodon. The first ride was a defeat in a handicap chase. As a 5lb claimer.

Two races later she was riding him in a grade 1 chase. As a claimer! Looks like Twister was the stable jock at Ditcheat still at that point. So the male owner and the male trainer put a largely unproven at that point female claimer up on a 9-1 shot in a grade 1. Not much sign of a sexist inner sanctum there.

A few things can be taken from that, not least that being a claimer got her the leg up on the probable horse of a lifetime. And that basically the horse has been a consistent theme through here entire career, a horse that repeatedly took her to the big stage.

That is the biggest factor in the perception that she is now struggling in my view. The inevitable eventual downgrade and ultimate retiring of a career horse.

Plus of course, Cobden cementing himself as number 1 for the trainer. Most people would ultimately put him ahead of Twister, never mind Bryony with no claim.

Black Corton was prior to Frodon I think, with a Tingle Creek win and a grade 2 win last April, plus over 200 other wins, she isn't a one horse jockey. Most other jocks would love to have that on their CV. Nicholls has always rated her as a good rider, but I agree, Cobden is a deserved stable jockey, and she has chosen to stay at Ditcheat none the less.

Nicholls says she’s “a top girl”

Would be interesting to know what Megan really thinks I can’t remember much vocal from her

There is a difference Chadfan, any middle ranking jockey would have come to prominence being Frodon's regular rider, for several reasons. Especially his consistency and style of racing. The points stand, that Frodon was synonymous with her career, and her gender was not a barrier to getting on him. There aren't many of them to go about (flagship horses). If PN gets another one, Cobden will most likely be on it.

I agree, Cobden is rightly the stable jockey, and yes Frodon was her flagship horse but there were others as well.
I still think she has a career as a jockey if she wants it, I hope so, but she might have other plans. She has started breeding, of the equine sort, so that might be what she wants to do eventually.

Personally I think she is a very decent jockey. She would not put me off backing a horse. But, I'd say that she's probably overachieved, or at least had a very decent time of it when you could pick plenty of other jockeys who are equally as good, who have had less success at the top table. But that is not good enough for some people. I get that some would love to see a female flying the flag in all the big jumps races in GB, but it's not like there is a budding champion jockey there if only she got more chances.
Paul O'Brien for example riding for Derham shows what happens if a journeyman jockey gets some decent sits for a change. Most of them can do it given the material to work with, and a lot of it is being at the right place at the right time when the cards fall (or of course, by blood).

The female jockey rides one for daddie today, trying to get her 16%, now down to 15%, further educed to 14%.
She goes on two at Muss. on Saturday.
I might just make the trip across there and sit at Mrs Porters with a sign - "Bully for Bryony".  Or, "Bryony has been Edinburied by Racing"!

You seem a little obsessed - thread not commented on for two weeks + you come up with this. It's proper incel behaviour

RD is racking up those losing rides! What's his S/R these days 9%?

Why start another thread when there is a perfectly good one on the go.
And you've responded anyway!

What has RD got to do with the female jockey by the way?
I believe he was warned to keep out of her way and has, quite sensibly, done so.
Well done Robbie.  You keep riding, the female keeps whingeing, albeit through a proxy.

"Whinging"? She hasn't said anything lately, apart from about Frodon's retirement.
It's your whinging about her that is tiresome Honcho.

Lilly Pinchin, Britain’s leading female jockey over jumps this season, says the new changing room configurations to prevent the sexes having to mix at racecourses is putting female riders at a big tactical disadvantage.

Cotswolds-based Pinchin, who is being followed by a film crew for an end-of-season documentary, believes that at courses where the changes have already been made following the Bryony Frost/Robbie Dunne case, female riders are missing out on the male jockeys’ pre-race chat about tactics and therefore are going out to ride ‘blind’, with no knowledge of how a race is likely to unfold, certainly in the early parts.

“The changes have produced some fantastic facilities, don’t get me wrong,” Pinchin says, referencing Warwick, Fakenham and Leicester as prime examples. “It was important they were made but normally, because we are usually the minority, we’d have joined the men in their changing room five minutes before going out to the paddock to ask ‘what’s the plan?’

“There’s only so much you can glean from the form book. It’s helpful to tell your owners how a race is likely to unfold. It’s the first thing your trainer is likely to ask you; what’s Harry [Cobden] doing, what’s Nico [de Boinville] doing. Not knowing is making us look unprofessional and, ironically, the playing field isn’t quite level now.”

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/2024/01/29/female-jockeys-changing-rooms-lilly-pinchin-documentary/

An example of "unintended consequences" screaming

Indeed. Probably not as bad a problem as sexist bullying and indecent exposure though. They could fix it with a baby monitor.

hmmm - i wonder how much double-bluffing goes on in those 'tactic' conversations? Why would you share? Their bosses share very little on the telly pre-race. How marvellous to be a fly on the wall for those talks.

So the article in The Times wasn't written on her behalf and was written without her consent.
Is that what you are saying Chadfan?
You're the naive one I think.

Indecent exposure, in a male changing room?  You have to laugh.

shoodacoodadidnt - Interesting when it's Patrick Mullins, because he tells the other jockeys exactly how they are going to ride the race.

Her comment does raise questions about what the male jockeys are discussing but there is a valid case for jockeys who have been told to make the running letting other riders know that to avoid a mad dash for the front. I hope that trainers don't stop using female riders because they have not been a party to the pre race plots. Easily solved by having a collecting area common to both sexes outside the changing rooms.

Another nice win for Alice Stevens at Catterick-one of the best female riders around.

Agreed.  There are quite a few and it is a joy to see how able they are and can be.
The revered old timers would be turning in their graves, so many were dead against women getting onto saddles in racing.

Thanks to Lilly for confirming a long held opinion I've always had. That a number of races are sorted out in the weighing room beforehand.

yes "your turn today old chap (chapess) - I'll leave a gap on the inside" - certainly a number of races look like that

It was being a professional that seemed to be the issue with the dinosaurs. Amateur women have ridden in point to points for 80 years but only more recently against men.

Yes, I think we all knew that but thank you for once again reminding us of a valid point.

Dunne  is lucky  he  did   not end  up  in  court
Shame on the trainers  who  use  this   eerrmm  man

Honcho, the article you are referring to was written without her prior knowledge and without her assistance. I have heard that she and those around her were unhappy about it being published. But carry on whingeing about her if it makes you happy, its a free country, just!

hardly surprising since the allegations contained within it are baseless. the writer probably knows very little about racing, but his own grandstanding came first, before actually running it past the individual he was using it appears. which could actually be interpreted as sexist. where's the courtesy in that?

You always like the last word so please post again and we can put the thing behind us.
She simply isn;t worth the effort.

Agreed Cider, it was a non-story from the start.

So  Flashing  in  front of a lady  is  ok

I dont think he ran his story past Lance Armstrong before going to print.

If Mr Dunne had done what he did infront of Ms Frost in a public "male" toilet could he have been done for indecent exposure in public, if reported? If so, a criminal record if prosecuted - yes?

I'd not use Mr Dunne if I was an owner regardless. Others may differ, but that's their prerogative.

geoff, trying to correlate those stories makes you look ridiculous. obviously, in theory this was intended to be in support of BF, not blowing the whistle on her.

50 yrs punting and despite us all no these things happen,never heard a jock say they get together  to discuss how they,ll ride a race.,tactics etc in the weighing room before a race,along with frost maybe pinchin going some way to explain why male jocks dont like female jocks in weighing,whats said /happens in weighing room stays in weighing room,
hard to believe a trainer sets out a plan to lead from front and because a jock comes out and says ,arry says he,s going hell to leather from the front,the trainer says ok we,ll hold ours up, if this happened  the often used phrase ,horses cutting each others throat,s/taking each other on wouldnt excist

Not sure that jockeys saying what their likely tactics are, or discussing the going from the last race, is the great anti-punter conspiracy some on here seem to imagine. What has been described so far does not amount to fixing the result.

It's like the soccerball forum complaining team sheets are announced before kick-off.

pinchin might have just wanted to no if the track was right or left handed

Didn't they discuss the other day on the Sunday Nick Luck show, she's basically getting the same amount rides and winners as she's always had.

It was an allegation which as yet has still not been proved and is the basis for why I will forever continue to call her the "female" jockey.
A disgusting allegation whereby the female jockey brought sex and gender into the hearing to garner the support of the weak-knee'd.   And then cried to prove how "wronged" she had been.

As  Dunne    lost  his claim  yet, 
He rides like  a  Maxwell

A very average jockey, agreed.  But that has no bearing on this discussion whatsoever.

fair play to frost going all the way to muss to watch freddie ginge ride a nichols winner

Sad for Bryony that Monmiral is the biggest dodge in the Nicholls yard. He has not won since his juvenile hurdle season.

going for home 5 wide before the home bend doesnt help,got to excited on a sat tv race,imo