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02 Jan 24
17:18
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Date Joined:
18 Jul 02
2024 is a new year and with a fresh head I thought I would start a discussion on a very hot topic. How do we improve horseracing as a product/industry and make sure that it doesn’t just wither away on the vine and become a total irrelevance is say 20 years’ time.
I warn you in advance that I have waffled on a bit here, as it’s a quiet Tuesday hiding from the storms here in Ascot! I really welcome alternative views to follow.
The racing UK commentator at Cheltenham (Steve Jones) yesterday highlighted that at this high level fixture there were not many runners. This of course reduces the spectacle and therefore casual visitors to the track. It also meant no each way betting which I would suggest reduces the levy take. He said that there was not enough money put into races to attract owners and hence runners or discourage highly profitable sales to USA/Australasia. So this seems to be the crux, we need to increase prize money. So how is this achieved:
Racecourses.
Their problem seems to be a lack of central funding and indeed low attendance numbers. Therefore they heavily rely on bar profits to survive and in the case of say Kempton, totally soulless evening winter fixtures totally for the gambling market with cheap, ultra competitive races full of unreliable horses.
My view is that we should cull maybe 30 tracks (on a fair regional basis) and reduce the fixture list massively. This would naturally increase field sizes and allow the prize money to be concentrated. I wholly agree with Tony Mccoy here, maximum of two UK fixtures in UK for Monday-Thursday.
The unfortunate culled tracks would then choose to be either totally independent, attracting their own funding, in a similar way to existing point to point fixtures, or close.
An attempt was made at this 25 years ago with ‘banded’ fixtures. Again a total failure and indeed some would say banded racing still exists without the name.
Another point is Sunday racing. It always fails to attract the crowds, for the obvious reason that people don’t want hangovers at work on Monday morning and also prefer Sunday dinner with the family. I actually think that Friday afternoon racing could be succeed much more than Sundays.
Bookmakers/funding
Bookmakers are only here to make profits and racehorse betting is a ZERO-SUM GAME. So, let’s be honest, if every punter were a winner, then betting would not exist. We can’t expect to be offered guaranteed minimum stakes from bookmakers at all times, as screwdies would pick them off at will. That’s for the birds.
Affordability is not a bookmaker issue, it’s a woke society problem.
All of us punters are frustrated at being gubbed/stake limited but this situation can’t be avoided. Our solution is to just bet on and promote exchanges. Exchanges run on much better modern economic business models. 20 years ago, I expected all bookmaking to cease, much in the same way as kodak collapsed with digital photography.
Bookmakers indeed ONLY exist due to their problem-gambling related micro sites. Racing is a loss- leader for them . However, government/racing can’t just close casinos down, or all racing funding will just disappear. A very sad situation, akin to the continuation of sales of tobacco.
The Tote is a better business model than bookmaking as it is automated. It has been totally mismanaged for years. With a smaller take-out and even a reduced minimum stake per line for the scoop six it could be a massive success.
In summary, for this section I think the current situation ref bookmakers is as good as we can expect.
Gimmicks.
The BHA seems to be very good at these. Premierisation of fixtures being the latest and probably not making much difference. However, the Sunday series has been a great concept, although the Racing League, like the Shergar cup is a complete failure. People bet to win money, not support football teams!
In summary, I am not optimistic at all for the future of racing in the UK. It needs much more direction from the top (BHA) and a lot of hard short term decisions to be made.
I warn you in advance that I have waffled on a bit here, as it’s a quiet Tuesday hiding from the storms here in Ascot! I really welcome alternative views to follow.
The racing UK commentator at Cheltenham (Steve Jones) yesterday highlighted that at this high level fixture there were not many runners. This of course reduces the spectacle and therefore casual visitors to the track. It also meant no each way betting which I would suggest reduces the levy take. He said that there was not enough money put into races to attract owners and hence runners or discourage highly profitable sales to USA/Australasia. So this seems to be the crux, we need to increase prize money. So how is this achieved:
Racecourses.
Their problem seems to be a lack of central funding and indeed low attendance numbers. Therefore they heavily rely on bar profits to survive and in the case of say Kempton, totally soulless evening winter fixtures totally for the gambling market with cheap, ultra competitive races full of unreliable horses.
My view is that we should cull maybe 30 tracks (on a fair regional basis) and reduce the fixture list massively. This would naturally increase field sizes and allow the prize money to be concentrated. I wholly agree with Tony Mccoy here, maximum of two UK fixtures in UK for Monday-Thursday.
The unfortunate culled tracks would then choose to be either totally independent, attracting their own funding, in a similar way to existing point to point fixtures, or close.
An attempt was made at this 25 years ago with ‘banded’ fixtures. Again a total failure and indeed some would say banded racing still exists without the name.
Another point is Sunday racing. It always fails to attract the crowds, for the obvious reason that people don’t want hangovers at work on Monday morning and also prefer Sunday dinner with the family. I actually think that Friday afternoon racing could be succeed much more than Sundays.
Bookmakers/funding
Bookmakers are only here to make profits and racehorse betting is a ZERO-SUM GAME. So, let’s be honest, if every punter were a winner, then betting would not exist. We can’t expect to be offered guaranteed minimum stakes from bookmakers at all times, as screwdies would pick them off at will. That’s for the birds.
Affordability is not a bookmaker issue, it’s a woke society problem.
All of us punters are frustrated at being gubbed/stake limited but this situation can’t be avoided. Our solution is to just bet on and promote exchanges. Exchanges run on much better modern economic business models. 20 years ago, I expected all bookmaking to cease, much in the same way as kodak collapsed with digital photography.
Bookmakers indeed ONLY exist due to their problem-gambling related micro sites. Racing is a loss- leader for them . However, government/racing can’t just close casinos down, or all racing funding will just disappear. A very sad situation, akin to the continuation of sales of tobacco.
The Tote is a better business model than bookmaking as it is automated. It has been totally mismanaged for years. With a smaller take-out and even a reduced minimum stake per line for the scoop six it could be a massive success.
In summary, for this section I think the current situation ref bookmakers is as good as we can expect.
Gimmicks.
The BHA seems to be very good at these. Premierisation of fixtures being the latest and probably not making much difference. However, the Sunday series has been a great concept, although the Racing League, like the Shergar cup is a complete failure. People bet to win money, not support football teams!
In summary, I am not optimistic at all for the future of racing in the UK. It needs much more direction from the top (BHA) and a lot of hard short term decisions to be made.
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Celtic Warrior , thanks so much for making the effort , a well thought out piece and shows you care about the game unlike several on here who look on it as a amusement park. As I race 97% of my time in Ireland and only pop over to the U.K. a few times a year I find loads of similar things on this side of the Irish Sea , sadly most on course bookies seem to be of the opinion we owe them a living and have failed over the years to improve their ways . Anyway thanks again for taking the time to write your opinion....
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How many times in the betting ring do you see a bookmaker with the hand out when walking past them…..they think they have a god given right…
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Where do I start. firstly I should say that at 79, the facilities on course and the travel have caused me to stop going racing. At the peak it was 3 days a week. That has not reduced my interest in the sport that started as soon as I could walk! I was a small owner (mostly shares) for 40 years but not worth it if you don't want to spend 2 hours on the road each way when your trainer finds a race 100 miles away. As far as the sport in general, the TV coverage has improved so much that attendances by those only interested in the racing and betting have less reason to go. Hence the bars and after racing entertainments. There is also too much concentration on short bursts of top class racing with little of consequence in between. I suspect that 75% of the Festival runners will have been out between Boxing Day and New Years Day and many of them won't run again until March. There are not enough horses (at least not in GB) to fill those fixtures so move some to late January or early February. With most of the Grade 1 horses in 3 yards in Ireland and 3 or 4 in England, competition is bound to be reduced and I am afraid that I can't be bothered to watch races in which Mullins and Elliott have all of the 5 runners how ever valuable they are.
Prize money matters but as we see every day, a maiden hurdle can have 32 runners in 2 divisions while Grade 1 races can have as few as 4 runners in each. The grass roots of jumping are the breeders and the point to point yards and they are reducing in number every year. Not very optimistic I am afraid. |
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We all know there’s too much racing. That is because the tail (book makers) is wagging the dog. Why do they want more & more? Because they make money from it. My answer to increase prize money is to remove the bookies & have a PMU system. It works in other big racing nations, why not here?
There’s simply too much money being generated by racing that is going straight out of racing. I don’t think attracting more paying punters to race courses is a BHA responsibility, it should be left to these suppliers to promote themselves. Like in all business, some will prosper & some will fail. They need to improve what they offer to an already converted crowd. Racing always has been a niche interest. I go 2 or 3 times a month usually midweek but occasionally on a pub trip to a Saturday meeting. Although everyone seems to enjoy these trips no one has developed an interest in the sport, it’s a day out with some gambling thrown in. 99% of people aren’t interested in the horses once the race is run. I can’t understand why everything these days has to appeal to everyone. |
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I briefly touched on this the other day.
You could only start to put things right if you had some sort of central control which could make decisions that could bring genuine change. There are just too many competing factions to achieve anything. Racecourses control the fixture list, hence the crazy amount of fixtures. With the exception of bank holidays, two fixtures midweek would be fine, one on major festival days, such as Royal Ascot and Cheltenham. How can the industry say it is concerned about problem gambling when it just serves up day after day of betting fodder. It seems it is just intent on creating something that leads to the vast majority of punters losing on a regular basis. All weather should go back to the original intention. It should never have progressed to 12 months. There should be two racing channels with half the racing on one, and half on the other. Most viewers just want to see the pictures, none of this split screen nonsense. There should be no racecourses picking an option. It shouldn't matter a jot if the races are covered by Racing TV or Sky. That would also get rid of this stupid situation where a channel can only preview a race using footage from it's 'own' courses. Debate about affordability checks has swamped the biggest problem facing punters, namely account closure, and restrictions. In many cases they amount to virtually the same thing. Nobody talks about this. It's ridiculous that Bookmakers don't have to provide any justification for their action. You could have a losing account closed just because they think you might end up being a long term winner. You might understand some sort of response to someone betting large amounts, but those betting £20 and less should never be restricted by any bookmaker. There should be a minimum allowable return. At the moment restrictions have probably reduced that to less than £10 for some, which is plainly ridiculous. With no one controlling body you know none of this is going to change. The sport itself is too expensive. The Racing Post, Racing UK (the biggest cost of any stand alone channel), and if you go racing, given that it is very much a rural sport, you have to factor in travel costs to high costs of admission. Those barriers are going to make it difficult to attract an audience whose mummy and daddy are not interested. I wouldn't give Steve Jones any credit. His main point was just to up prize money. He was doing little more than play to the bubble. Presenters/pundits do little else. A little more honesty would be nice, but that isn't going to change either. |
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Very good post! I agree the Tote and BF the way fwd for Racing. Plus incentives for ownership for small owners to bring them back into the game, with a reduction in fixtures and tracks. Focusing on modernizing the tracks that survive. They have failed to realise for years that a vibrant betting and ownership model is the only way to succeed. However they have seemed to do everything to not support his. Thats why its failing. I think as some people allude to the bookmakers AC and restrictions are a side issue. However the reality is that the people are charge seem largely clueless.
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differentdrum Joined: 05 Oct 11
Replies: 1716603 Jan 24 11:39 Racecourses control the fixture list, hence the crazy amount of fixtures. With the exception of bank holidays, two fixtures midweek would be fine, one on major festival days, such as Royal Ascot and Cheltenham. This of course would virtually destroy the industry and leaving thousands out of work. |
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It desperately needs that hair cut. Too many courses, too many meetings, too many horses, too many races, too many people trying to earn a living out of the diminishing pie. An industry exists to fulfil demand, not the other way around. No amount of naval gazing is going to restore the demand that there used to be, as the world has changed and it ain't going back. Blockbuster video is not coming back.
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Too many meetings. Fullstop.
Stop global betting corporations having the ability to control horse racing decisions. Go to a Tote system, or Horse Racing will struggle. Make owning horses that have a chance at winning HUGE pots available to the average working class man/woman. Slowly tell the rich owners to go away, and find something else to do with their money.... |
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Excellent thread.
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Tell that to the owners who spend fortunes keeping their horses in training and providing employment for so many people. If the people don't want it it will go on its own accord and not because a minority of people just want the racing they personally prefer.
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Racing always has been a niche interest. That about says it all for me, and will always be the case. Outside the horse racing bubble, Cheltenham Grand National and Ascot, nobody cares about horse racing.
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£100K handicap at the premier jumps track, on a premier racing day attracted six runners. Prize money is one of the factors, and it is thinned out across too many races. However, Jones chose an odd day to focus on that as there was nothing wrong with the prize money that day. Jumps racing has a unique challenge, as most of the better horses have their season centred around one meeting.
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I've never understood why we need horse racing every day in the UK. Makes no sense to me at all.
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It's catch 22.
Most people that love/enjoy racing also love/enjoy betting. The two activities are inextricably linked. The best answer for racing is undoubtedly a tote-monopoly - but if you love/enjoy betting, who the feck wants that? Catch 22. |
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Horse racing everyday in France even Xmas day,cheap admin, quality food/ drink at reasonable prices top prizemoney, 155 tracks plus 100 more for trotting all this funded by Pari-mutual betting. Surely to God this is the only way forward to stop the rapid decline.
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'premierisation' has some logic but it needs to go the whole way. I can see how some of the minor tracks can attract big crowds, and have a profitable local operation, serving up dross racing. fair enough if they can do it and attract the fields and audience for the money that they put on, but it should stand on its own. ie, not televised or have a separate channel for the fourth division stuff. That Monday highlighted several of he issues, with he first 'premier' race clashing with the first at Exeter that was scheduled to be off 5 mins after the Chelts off time!
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Too many meetings but not too many racecourses. Less variety will take the fun out of it for many in addition to local needs.
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Can tote and fixed odds not run side by side if contolled by the same body, does not Australia have some thing on the same lines.
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Trident Joined: 05 May 07
Replies: 437403 Jan 24 12:09 I don't think very expensive horses, and rich owners, help the sport in the future. When they go away and families don't follow, horse racing is in big trouble. They are not all rich owners and many are members of syndicates and yet not one word from anyone about the many thousands of people who rely on the industry for a living. Just leave the sport alone and it will sort itself out rather than advocating losses of meetings etc. |
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cropsick , the more racing takes out of betting there will be less prospect of winning for punters. And it's the hope that keeps punters going. Lose that and many will pack in LEGAL betting.
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How much is taken out of betting now with big Corp controlling it
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I think it's a mistake (repeated in places in this thread) to view racing as a single entity. In fact, it's a loose confederation of warring tribes. You have the racehorse owners, the breeders, the trainers, the jockeys, the regulator (BHA), the racecourses, the bookmakers, and the media. All of these interact to different degrees, but they all have their own vested interests and agendas, and they all own different parts of the package. There is no common goal, or overall "guiding mind". This makes any improvement & future-proofing very difficult.
Indeed, British racing is structured rather like the British railways, where you have regulators, one company owning and operating the track, train operating companies (sometimes competing with each other, sometimes not), different companies owning the trains, and government setting a general framework. And we all know how well that works. |
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There is a lot on nonsense talked about the state of British racing. Its a minority sport in the UK and doesn't have much interest for the general public. For all that it does quite well and those that are involved are passionate about it, particularly at the grass roots level where people put in far more proportionality than the Shk Mo's of this world. What we are going through at he moment is those with more influence in the sport making a grab for a disproportionate amount of the spoils which means the lower end/grass roots are being under rewarded. All this nonsense about less racing is a joke, there needs to be more opportunities for 0-70 type horses to ensure owners have a chance of some return to keep them in the game. Its boring listening to people who never go racing complain about Wolves and Newcastle mid week evening racing or rubbish low grade horses that they couldn't afford a pair of shoes for.
Its true tracks can take the p*ss with their pricing but on the other hand a badge for Newmarket is about £500 for 30 odd days racing including classic and championship races as well as half a dozen or so music nights in the summer (if you like that sort of thing). My advice to the BHA is put on more low grade racing and promote regional events. Travelling up and down the country for a 0-55 is crazy and get another all weather up North (Scotland if possible). |
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100% agree True Honcho and lets support all racing and not just the meetings we personally like.
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Most of the posts are well argued but they miss three important points.
1. Other countries treat racing as a contributor to their GDP and is therefore worthy of some support. Ireland is the main beneficiary of this mindset. Most UK MPs have a negative impression of racing because of problem gambling and very few would change the law to support it. The lack of furlough for betting shop staff (not sure what happened in training yards) shows how little the Government cares about us. How can nightclubs be more worthy of tax payer support than horse racing Richi? 2. The betting monopolies in Hong Kong, France and US allow the tracks to get more revenue so higher prize money but if adopted here UK punters would get a nasty shock when their annual losses doubled. 3. NH racing has grown from an amateur sport and might be healthier if it went back there. Small permit holders training their own and family horses for limited prize money but with far less BHA bureaucracy and overheads. I was brought up in the Cotswolds when at least 20% of farmers went hunting and had a horse that could compete in a PTP and the best ones ended up in Hunter Chases or a few made it to the top like Baulking Green, The Dikler and See More Business who won at my local ptps. That is the sort of racing connection that I love. |
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Rent a racehorse on the day it runs.an untapped market that could add millions to the horse race industry.
in other words own a horse for a day,same jockey ,same trainer,but give someone a chance to own a horse for one day. who knows it might win and the renter keeps the prize money.  |
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The 'political' element is much wider than you allude to, sageform. That really is a rabbit hole, but there is a determined push to destroy almost everything that this country is/was successful at, some people (including I) would allege that is entirely deliberate. You'll be aware of that anyway. It goes way deeper than party politics. I don't see central funding as a solution in any way, as that can be withdrawn at any time, as they may well discover in Ireland soon enough.
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I didn't say it was party political although it tends to be Tories in shire seats where the trainers and breeders are (until the next election). Ireland treats horse breeding as an important part of the economy. Most UK MPs probably don't know it exists. I don't agree about AW racing. It has far less abandoned meetings, far less variation in race surface and if the courses were upgraded they could easily taker over most of the flat. Short straights and sharp turns give it a bad name but imagine an AW track on the same footprint as Newbury or Doncaster instead of running in a bog.
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You mentioned MPs tho and they now primarily simply reflect the acceptable views in the privileged classes. The concept of an MP has completely changed (we can thank Cameron for a lists and effectively removing selection choice from the local level on the Tory side), and the next election will see off most of the few remaining MPs that hold values of liberty and self determination strongly. Our parliament will become more like the EU where central policy is simply rubber stamped.
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Which ever party they represent, they have to pay lip service to being "woke" and that includes the nanny state so nobody should lose their shirt by betting. None of them have worked in a farming or horse related industry and I doubt if that will ever change. I agree that the choice of candidates is a very big weakness in a democracy.
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If you mean the hereditary peers and the monarchy by privileged, they are still the main supporters of racing in positions of power but there are not enough of them. Gone are the days when the likes of Lord Rosebery, Lord Derby, Sir Winston Churchill and many others had strings of horses while in Parliament and would have made sure that racing was well treated by legislators.
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No, I mean all approved candidates have to have gone through the woke mixer. You won't get a new MP such as John Redwood again in my lifetime. Most of them don't even read the bills as it is now, never mind understand the arguments.
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That is going off on a tangent, but the applicable element is that there won't be any political help for any activity that is frowned upon by the woke police. Horse racing of course suffers on that front on multiple levels.
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It was one of those MPs (luckily still around) that managed to get them to schedule in a sunset to the covid laws giving executive powers to avoid parliamentary scrutiny in the height of the hysteria. Another was absolutely determined to get parliament back to normal as soon as it was possible/practical to do so (most of them would rather have still been pressing a button from their sofa). They were also pretty much the only reason that we did not go into lockdown again at the end of 2022 (narrowly dodging yet another disaster). These MPs will either be terminated at the next election, or will have decided to jump off the sinking ship of the party that is now conservative in name only.
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Cropstick,
Ref france. Surely this only happens because PMU margins are enormous. I thought that the only bet most people did in france was the special daily trifecta at i guess 160% over round? Sadly that would be no good to me. I need a fair chance of winning in the long run |
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Really good read, well done all..
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Agreed with your last sentiment. Anyone who thinks this is a right leaning Government has not been alive for very long. Hence the strong support for Reform UK which is at least trying to represent those with views further to the right. Right wing is Saudi Arabia or Donald Trump, not any UK Government in the last 30 years. The irony of course is that many of the illegal migrants come from countries where right wing means being thrown in jail for being woke.
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