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gave it a hard ride
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Gave the horse every chance.
Just lost out in a cracking finish.
Just lost out in a cracking finish.
U don’t win at Ascot coming that wide into the straight,although drawn wide had the opportunity to get the horse over so that he wasn’t forced wide,I think Westover was the best horse on the day,that why a top class jockey can make a difference for a win or a second place.
He's clear of the rest and only gone by a head to a horse officially rated 3lb higher, and probably recorded a career-best effort in the process.
With the NR, he was drawn 9 of 10, and didn't get the chance to slot in, unlike Crowley who was drawn in 4, but he got Westover settled nicely and evidently the horse was able to finish his race off strongly as a result.
Was is it a disadvantage to be caught a little wide? King Of Steel had the perfect trip around the inner but couldn't go with the first two.
Then there's the use of the whip, Hornby tried to stay within the rules by going just ? one over, but I counted that Crowley went three over. I think Westover is a horse who responds willingly to encouragement, so maybe the use of the whip (or lack of) played a part ultimately.
Conclusion imo: good ride by Hornby from a tricky draw.
Footnote: I wonder if Mr Haggas is regretting not running Hamish, cuz it proved to be quite a test, and his stamina might have got him into a place at least on ground that was probably riding on the slow side.
With the NR, he was drawn 9 of 10, and didn't get the chance to slot in, unlike Crowley who was drawn in 4, but he got Westover settled nicely and evidently the horse was able to finish his race off strongly as a result.
Was is it a disadvantage to be caught a little wide? King Of Steel had the perfect trip around the inner but couldn't go with the first two.
Then there's the use of the whip, Hornby tried to stay within the rules by going just ? one over, but I counted that Crowley went three over. I think Westover is a horse who responds willingly to encouragement, so maybe the use of the whip (or lack of) played a part ultimately.
Conclusion imo: good ride by Hornby from a tricky draw.
Footnote: I wonder if Mr Haggas is regretting not running Hamish, cuz it proved to be quite a test, and his stamina might have got him into a place at least on ground that was probably riding on the slow side.
Hornby gets a tough time on here generally, and he might not be the strongest in a finish, but all things considered today, hard to say he did anything wrong given the hand he was dealt.
And it's worth remembering in the race last year, Westover pulled his chance away under Colin Keane, so kudos to Hornby for getting the horse settled even though he was unable to get cover.
And it's worth remembering in the race last year, Westover pulled his chance away under Colin Keane, so kudos to Hornby for getting the horse settled even though he was unable to get cover.
Bandwagon jumpers.
Done a lot better than Keane did last year.
Done a lot better than Keane did last year.
Gave it every chance, beaten by a better horse. Time to give Hukum the credit he deserves.
Hornby just isn't a particularly aesthetically pleasing jockey to look at. Esp vs most of his peers at the top level.
Personally I'm not critical of his ride today at all, but an a lister just might have made the difference. The circumstances meant he was unlucky yet again, wide draw, slow pace, caught in daylight etc. If he gets a truly run race and settles behind it he will run away with one of these.
Personally I'm not critical of his ride today at all, but an a lister just might have made the difference. The circumstances meant he was unlucky yet again, wide draw, slow pace, caught in daylight etc. If he gets a truly run race and settles behind it he will run away with one of these.
Rico-Dangleflaps 29 Jul 23 18:39
not ewe george..the fred Love
Ffs
not ewe george..the fred Love
Ffs
Jul 29, 2023 -- 6:44PM, GEORGE.B wrote:
Hornby gets a tough time on here generally, and he might not be the strongest in a finish, but all things considered today, hard to say he did anything wrong given the hand he was dealt.And it's worth remembering in the race last year, Westover pulled his chance away under Colin Keane, so kudos to Hornby for getting the horse settled even though he was unable to get cover.
Perhaps the horse just settles better now, a year older
The horse didn't settle today tho!
It's pretty much an urban myth that certain jockeys are better at settling horses than others (at the top level). Plenty of good jockeys in the race today and half the field were pulling.
It's pretty much an urban myth that certain jockeys are better at settling horses than others (at the top level). Plenty of good jockeys in the race today and half the field were pulling.
Name another rider who would have won on Westover…..
Worst place to be at Ascot on the round course is on the inside, go back and check all the results through recent history, wide high drawn runners are favoured.
Who is a stronger jockey than RH?
OM, RM, RR, FD, HD, WB, TM off the top of my head. Obviously they aren't all hypothetically available for the ride.
We're talking about a head difference, which is nothing. I can't be clearer, I'm not critical of Hornby in this race, but he is just off the top tier of riders. He wouldn't put me off backing one.
OM, RM, RR, FD, HD, WB, TM off the top of my head. Obviously they aren't all hypothetically available for the ride.
We're talking about a head difference, which is nothing. I can't be clearer, I'm not critical of Hornby in this race, but he is just off the top tier of riders. He wouldn't put me off backing one.
If people are critical of Hornby then what about all the jocks who finished even further back on supposedly quality horses
It's the wide draw combined with the slow pace, this horse Westover being inclined to race freely and seeing a lot of daylight.
I wrote on Foyle's thread that AOB's (unknown to us) plans will determine the outcome of this race, and they did. Outside of his there was nothing else that even showed they like to press the pace, so it was always possible they would gather at the head of the field and pull it up, and so it proved. Luxembourg had every right to run away with the race given his 10f form and the complete run of the race but he has run awful.
I wrote on Foyle's thread that AOB's (unknown to us) plans will determine the outcome of this race, and they did. Outside of his there was nothing else that even showed they like to press the pace, so it was always possible they would gather at the head of the field and pull it up, and so it proved. Luxembourg had every right to run away with the race given his 10f form and the complete run of the race but he has run awful.
Where's this "slow pace" coming from, the ATR sectionals were in the red some way out, with it only going 'blue' in the straight.
They were strung out up the straight with the likes of Emily Upjohn and Pyledriver walking home.
Looking at the average furlong times on the card, it still came out top on the furlong-per-furlong times.
But that's just my 'amateur' assessment of it, we'll have to see what the pro's like Simon Rowlands made of it.
They were strung out up the straight with the likes of Emily Upjohn and Pyledriver walking home.
Looking at the average furlong times on the card, it still came out top on the furlong-per-furlong times.
But that's just my 'amateur' assessment of it, we'll have to see what the pro's like Simon Rowlands made of it.
Just an observation but many horses at Royal Ascot on the round course came wide to achieve an uninterrupted challenge.
Going of the ATR sectionals, the slowest fractions were up the straight, which you wouldn't have expected off a "slow pace" given presumably the straight track would ride quicker than the old turf on the round course?
Whatever, you don't need to be a sectionals expert to see that the race had taken its toll on some quality performers judging by the way they were finishing up the straight.
Whatever, you don't need to be a sectionals expert to see that the race had taken its toll on some quality performers judging by the way they were finishing up the straight.
Westover
Raced wide, took keen hold
King Of Steel
Took keen hold, held up in midfield
Pyledriver
Started quickly, took keen hold
Emily Upjohn
Took keen hold, held up in rear
Deauville Legend
Pulled hard
Raced wide, took keen hold
King Of Steel
Took keen hold, held up in midfield
Pyledriver
Started quickly, took keen hold
Emily Upjohn
Took keen hold, held up in rear
Deauville Legend
Pulled hard
Only five runners did not pull in that race, two 'pace making' rags and the tailed off fav that didn't turn up. Leaving the winner and the 4th (who also ran quite poorly). It fell apart, imv, and ended up a scrappy affair. And the winner might be DQ'd for cheating with the whip!
If Hukum gets thrown out after a race like that,the games over.
Westover
Raced wide, took keen hold
so why didn't Westover 'stop' like some of the others?
We'll get an expert's view tomorrow:
Simon Rowlands
@RowleyfileRRR
Sectionals for that thrilling KG6 are up on ATR.
Sectional Spotlight tomorrow will attempt to say what they mean and how they fit in historically.
Raced wide, took keen hold
so why didn't Westover 'stop' like some of the others?
We'll get an expert's view tomorrow:
Simon Rowlands
@RowleyfileRRR
Sectionals for that thrilling KG6 are up on ATR.
Sectional Spotlight tomorrow will attempt to say what they mean and how they fit in historically.
According to this data, Hukum's slowest two furlongs, other than the first where he was steadied to get cover, were his final two, which is not you might expect off a "slow pace" and presuming the straight course was riding quicker than the round course, though admittedly that might not have been the case today.
https://www.attheraces.com/racecard/Ascot/29-July-2023/1540
https://www.attheraces.com/racecard/Ascot/29-July-2023/1540
I don;t know how or why people keep defending this guy Hornby. Sooner or later the penny is going to drop with the owners too. As for we punters we simply can't bet anything he is on with any confidence. Crowley most certainly his superior, and by some way. Brilliant interview by Chapman I thought with the owner in the winners. Really made her feel valued without being condescending and she clearly appreciated it.
The RP's analysis describes the race as a "thorough test", with the field bunched early but then the two pacemakers soon pressing on.
And you can see from the Westover sectionals on the ATR site, that his second and third furlongs were both run in under 12 seconds, which given the ground, would suggest they were soon tanking along.
And you can see from the Westover sectionals on the ATR site, that his second and third furlongs were both run in under 12 seconds, which given the ground, would suggest they were soon tanking along.
Westover’s race went exactly like I described on Foyles’ thread.
100% Precise lol
Hence why I can’t criticise Hornby.
A little left field but I’d like them to give the Melbourne Cup a try. I think at a mile and a half he will always be vulnerable to someone with any sort of kick but his stamina and I suppose heart is all there to see. That race might be right up his street and he won’t be weighted out it…decent older types like him have won off big weights…delta blues, protectionist and gold trip to name 3.
100% Precise lol
Hence why I can’t criticise Hornby.
A little left field but I’d like them to give the Melbourne Cup a try. I think at a mile and a half he will always be vulnerable to someone with any sort of kick but his stamina and I suppose heart is all there to see. That race might be right up his street and he won’t be weighted out it…decent older types like him have won off big weights…delta blues, protectionist and gold trip to name 3.
I thought we were getting an historic context?
Anyhow there is no genuine benchmark on the day, with only one other race on the round track over a shorter trip, a minor g3 event for fillies and mares. As we know, Ascot is not flat and I believe it was also quite windy at the track yesterday. However Roman Mist rated 101 has run apprx the same time outside standard as the KG. Then you obviously have to factor in the longer trip. There is a small weight variable (4lb), which can be offset by Roman Mist being female. Plus, an hour in drying conditions in favour of the later race.
I fail to see how that extra 4f adds up to RM getting a TS speed rating of 90, and Hukum 118. A famous trainer once stated something along the lines of only worrying about time if he was in jail, and I go along with that in racing generally, however it does tend to inform us about the going more than the CoCs.
Anyhow there is no genuine benchmark on the day, with only one other race on the round track over a shorter trip, a minor g3 event for fillies and mares. As we know, Ascot is not flat and I believe it was also quite windy at the track yesterday. However Roman Mist rated 101 has run apprx the same time outside standard as the KG. Then you obviously have to factor in the longer trip. There is a small weight variable (4lb), which can be offset by Roman Mist being female. Plus, an hour in drying conditions in favour of the later race.
I fail to see how that extra 4f adds up to RM getting a TS speed rating of 90, and Hukum 118. A famous trainer once stated something along the lines of only worrying about time if he was in jail, and I go along with that in racing generally, however it does tend to inform us about the going more than the CoCs.
Interestingly, nearly every runner in the g3 race has the in running comment 'took keen hold'.
people are just giving an opinion on last 500 yds not how they arrived there, looking at race you,d say if you swapped hornby for moore at furlong marker ,westover would have won
Simon Rowlands gives his analysis of the race here and comparisons to past renewals:
https://www.attheraces.com/blogs/sectional-spotlight/30-july-2023/king-george-vi-and-queen-elizabeth-qipco-stakes
"The full sectionals are available, colour-coded, and properly contextualised, in the ‘Results’ section on this site. They show that the pace was strong early and did not really begin to abate until the home turn."
"Hukum emerged triumphant in a notably attritional affair, in which the ground (“good to soft”, with no good in it by my reckoning), the unrelenting pace, a stiff finish, and something of a headwind in the straight, all played their part."
https://www.attheraces.com/blogs/sectional-spotlight/30-july-2023/king-george-vi-and-queen-elizabeth-qipco-stakes
"The full sectionals are available, colour-coded, and properly contextualised, in the ‘Results’ section on this site. They show that the pace was strong early and did not really begin to abate until the home turn."
"Hukum emerged triumphant in a notably attritional affair, in which the ground (“good to soft”, with no good in it by my reckoning), the unrelenting pace, a stiff finish, and something of a headwind in the straight, all played their part."
7 to 2 out to 13 to 2 ,someone found some good in it 
Narrative all day pushed by both ITV and ATR that the ground had dried out to good and was drying all the time thats why both Baradar and Hukum drifted i reckon.
It was a attritional for sure, but he is putting that down to the ground. I just feel it was a race that fell apart due to horses that didn't turn up and/or pulled hard. As I stated, there was only one other race on that course, with far lower rated horses and a shorter trip.
People tend to interpret data to what they would like it to show. When compared to the female group 3 race with much lower rated horses, that was not a fast time.
They show that the pace was strong early and did not really begin to abate until the home turn."
What does that green column under 8f-7f delineate if the pass was 'unrelenting'.
Intrinsic Bond in the final race on the card recorded a time 1.95s outside standard, he is (was) rated 91. It was of course on the straight course and 5f. So that was 0.39 secs outside per furlong. Hukum was 0.35 per furlong, essentially on a par. Random Harvest was a little slower, 0.56.
So we (or the speed ratings people) are stating that the 20 pounds difference was purely due to one being on the straight course and the other being on the round course (the last 2f or so, the same course).
Personally I don't feel like there is much evidence that was a fast run race, as somebody must create the parameters for that colour coded 'map'. And as I know from the covid reporting, and recent weather reporting, we can't always trust the parameters (or the algorithms) used to create data presentation. Definitely furlongs 2 and 3 were the fastest of the race (inarguable), that does not mean the pace was 'unrelenting'. I don't know of hand if that particular section is uphill, downhill, or flat.
I know Simon used to post on here, perhaps he can shed some light on the huge rating disparity on the three races I quoted, when the relative times appear similar.
People tend to interpret data to what they would like it to show. When compared to the female group 3 race with much lower rated horses, that was not a fast time.
They show that the pace was strong early and did not really begin to abate until the home turn."
What does that green column under 8f-7f delineate if the pass was 'unrelenting'.
Intrinsic Bond in the final race on the card recorded a time 1.95s outside standard, he is (was) rated 91. It was of course on the straight course and 5f. So that was 0.39 secs outside per furlong. Hukum was 0.35 per furlong, essentially on a par. Random Harvest was a little slower, 0.56.
So we (or the speed ratings people) are stating that the 20 pounds difference was purely due to one being on the straight course and the other being on the round course (the last 2f or so, the same course).
Personally I don't feel like there is much evidence that was a fast run race, as somebody must create the parameters for that colour coded 'map'. And as I know from the covid reporting, and recent weather reporting, we can't always trust the parameters (or the algorithms) used to create data presentation. Definitely furlongs 2 and 3 were the fastest of the race (inarguable), that does not mean the pace was 'unrelenting'. I don't know of hand if that particular section is uphill, downhill, or flat.
I know Simon used to post on here, perhaps he can shed some light on the huge rating disparity on the three races I quoted, when the relative times appear similar.
A dreadful result for the yard especially the staff,the horse should have won end of……ffs…look at the route he took
At least 2 lengths lost ….bingo sleepless night last night I bet….
At least 2 lengths lost ….bingo sleepless night last night I bet….
U really feel for trainer Beckett he had the horse trained to the minute and if Hornby had shown some ruthlessness and cut into two off the rail,even if he had to cause interference I think it would have been the trainers day,well we move on.
Was a very good ride imo, the winner came wider, harsh on Hornby, plenty of jockeys worse than him
he stayed within the rules and was cheated out of it.
Agree with GeorgeB's summary, Hornby did nothing wrong to me - he clearly did not want to slot in and then be caught in a pocket
and have any sort of difficult passage like what happened at Epsom in home straight, just outdone by a very good horse,
not for the first time Westover looks like it could win and doesnt (has hung continually at times) maybe says more about his temperament than Hornby's riding?
Still a serious racehorse as his second to Equinox in Dubai Classic proves with plenty of top-class horses way behind.
A big race may yet comes his way and hopefully Hornby gets the chance to prove his armchair critics wrong.
and have any sort of difficult passage like what happened at Epsom in home straight, just outdone by a very good horse,
not for the first time Westover looks like it could win and doesnt (has hung continually at times) maybe says more about his temperament than Hornby's riding?
Still a serious racehorse as his second to Equinox in Dubai Classic proves with plenty of top-class horses way behind.
A big race may yet comes his way and hopefully Hornby gets the chance to prove his armchair critics wrong.
^ No opinion either way on this ride but can't see how if the horse was to win in the future that the jockey will prove his critics wrong.
Maybe Westover needs to step up in trip. Or try and win easier G1 abroad.
Would love to see a middle distance handicap Group 1 series for horses exactly like Westover/Pyledriver/Bolshoi Ballet/Lord North/Luxemburg/Point Lonsdale/Mojo Star/ Changingoftheguard/Hamish/Lone Eagle/Max Vega/Broome/Coltrane/Eldar Eldarov... horses that will be retiring to stud (as applicable) as NH statllions, G2/3 horses not quite at G1 pitch.
Would be competitive, should produce cracking races, create a bit of a horse following, and keep horses in Ire/Uk rather than being sold for silly money to Australia/Dubai/USA
Would love to see a middle distance handicap Group 1 series for horses exactly like Westover/Pyledriver/Bolshoi Ballet/Lord North/Luxemburg/Point Lonsdale/Mojo Star/ Changingoftheguard/Hamish/Lone Eagle/Max Vega/Broome/Coltrane/Eldar Eldarov... horses that will be retiring to stud (as applicable) as NH statllions, G2/3 horses not quite at G1 pitch.
Would be competitive, should produce cracking races, create a bit of a horse following, and keep horses in Ire/Uk rather than being sold for silly money to Australia/Dubai/USA
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