No matter what I do, I lose money backing or laying. A 50% ROI back system in the win market can be 0% ROI in the place market. And a 50% ROI lay system can also be 0% ROI in the place market. 90% of the time there is no reason to make a place bet. Let's say you have a 4/1 shot who should be 3/1, so it has a 25% chance to win, great pick. But in the place market it will have a 50% chance to win at 2.0, worthless pick. How can a great value horse be worthless in the place market?