RIP Nigel Lawson

"Betting duty" at 6.75% was applied to sports bets until 2001 when it was replaced by a 15% tax on gross profits

You should have gone to the track and taken advantage of Lawson's 0% betting duty then, sparrow. Wealthy men came and brought their money from all over the world. You suddenly had the likes of Australian native-art dealer Wayne Heathcote standing next to Terry Barfoot on the rails at Plumpton laying bets of £50,000 to £40,000 on an amateur riders' chase.

A small example of how getting rid of tax makes a nation wealthier.

I was working full time in those days keeping the country running, screaming. So only able to go racing now and again.

I was working full-time too. Clock-watching in an office, translating endless piles of pharma patents and clinical trials, sharing a rented house. If it hadn't been for Lawson, I'd still be there to this day.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/front_page/1207748.stm

^ Yes. And there's Brown ruining everything. It was Brown's reduction of the off-course tax to zero % which enabled low-margin FOBTs to suddenly become viable.

yep, he certainly changed many lives, for the worse, especially if you was poor

Whether you loved or loathed him, he also gave us Nigella and that will do for me.

screaming from beneaththewaves • April 3, 2023 10:42 PM BST
^ Yes. And there's Brown ruining everything. It was Brown's reduction of the off-course tax to zero % which enabled low-margin FOBTs to suddenly become viable.

pish. offshore phone betting was becoming available, the internet was on the way and not one single person would have been betting in a shop paying tax, if they could have been betting online tax free.

Part of Thatcher….move along…

Fell out with Thatcher actually.

Fell out with thatcher? Big deal, he was still her chancellor and wreaked havoc in the 80s, making the poor poorer like the Tories always do

Exactly

Ripped the heart from the Scottish grafters…..never be forgiven…

I wasn't trying to defend him. I agree totally about the 80s.

When he cut the top tax rate to 40%, the government raised more money in tax.

rofl the tax cutters always say that

Sky News actually.

oh that changes everything

just pretend it isn't true dave

this government just put taxes up and raised more tax. The tax revenue depends on the wider economy. It is nonsense to say that a particular cut was the sole cause of the higher tax take.

The rate was too high at that time, so I don't disagree with the cut, just the bollocks that is spouted about it leading to a higher tax take.

no one saying it is

re "the sole cause"

well why bring it up then?

People can come to their own minds whether it was instrumental or not.  I'm sure political ideology is the main driver for most people in that regard.

No question that the Labour 90% plus income tax did lower tax income. Most of the 60s pop stars moved their domicile abroad along with many other wealthy individuals. Most have never returned. So instead of paying 40-45% they paid none. 13 years ago, just as the coalition came to power, the Libdems insisted on raising capital gains tax dramatically. I was expecting to pay 18% indexed for 30 years on the sale of my mother's house but when they raised the tax and abolished the indexation I decided to consult a tax consultant who I paid £3000 in fees. Saved me £100,000 tax as he was able to find a legal way to avoid it. I probably would not have bothered at the old rate so raising the tax cost the revenue about £75k from me alone.

When Betfair introduced premium charges, turnover went from steadily rising to steadily falling.  Plenty of other factors.  I'm sure tax rate for Betfair increased short term, but then Betfair users had no other options.  Had there been a German, US or Indian alternative, I'm sure plenty of users would have gone there within weeks.

So instead of paying 40-45% they paid none.

Most have never returned.



So how did lowering tax increase the tax take from these individuals?

If the tax rate was lowered to zero, how much extra tax would be collected?

Exactly. I used a telephone bookmaker in Gibraltar for years before the tax was abolished here and he stood the 4% tax there so I paid none. Several of my bigger punting friends refused to believe it was legal but it was.

CLYDEBANK29 • April 4, 2023 11:54 AM BST
When Betfair introduced premium charges, turnover went from steadily rising to steadily falling.

Once again a Post hoc ergo propter hoc. 

Betting ecosystems can't be compared to economies as they are zero sum and are entirely dependent on new losers. Existing winners (PC payers) would just cannibalize each other without new losers.

My dad worked for British Steel from leaving university to retirement.  It was the tax treatment (specifically capital allowances) that meant the UK couldn't compete with their German counterparts.

and led to the end of British Steel/Tata Steel.  Tax treatment is all important in competing on a global level

Spend all your life paying tax at PAYE and see how you would like that.

So CLYDEBANK, iyo, the massive deindustrialisation that took place under Thatcher could have been avoided by tweaking capital allowances?

No, it would have taken a ban or high taxes/duties on imports or a reduction in UK wages to third world levels.

I can only talk about British Steel dave.  My dad worked in British Steel through the from nationalisation to private and the drop in the work force by 90%. Things I remember him saying when it is a national industry were.. you could be totally incompetent, but that the only way you could be sacked was for having sex or fraud (he did spend some early years as a union rep).  That you'd regularly have 3 people "doing" a job when only 1 person was needed.  The capital allowance issue I refer to was not under Thatcher.  Was prolly under late Blair/Brown or Cameron/LibDems.  He'd retired by then but was very well respected and often asked for advice, and was still fully aware of the industry.  He retired at 60 and he did say that the British Steel pension was the best in the UK, worth 25-30% on top of your salary.  Worth noting when public sector workers cry foul that their pensions may well be far superior to private sector workers

The specific issue was cheap Chinese Steel.  The Germans introduced changes to capital allowances to allow their steel industry to compete.  The UK didn't.

Was prolly under late Blair/Brown or Cameron/LibDems.

British Steel was nothing by then in comparison to its heyday.

If you are referring to the size of the workforce then you are right.  If you are referring to productivity then you are not.

I'm pretty sure I read a quote from an industry booklet that went along the lines of output had increased despite a two thirds drop in the workforce.  Early 90s

The point is taxes have to be set at a level that makes you competitive in the global market.  That fundamentally should always be the first consideration around any tax rise or fall, because that ultimately determines how much tax revenue you take.

usual insightful intellectual analysis from peabrain pansydora and juvenalia from the usual erbets. and i couldnt stand the bugger

but without him no modestly-monikered nigella. id euthanise a million of the lower orders for that

I'd disagree on that in isolation. What the taxes are used for is far more important. Infrastructure, training, public transport etc.

prob is the state is spectacularly inept at spending it. or rather, very good at burning it. hs2(id vote for lord buckethead if hed scrap it. its not too late. high-speed interweb everywhere would cost 5% of it) being the latest calamity to follow from crossrail, the nhs i.t. disaster and a million others i cant be arsed mentioning. and local govt. is even worse

The only good tory is a dead tory

"modestly-monikered nigella" - actually her name was not chosen by Nigel, it was suggested by her grandmother, a keen gardener. Nigella is the latin species name for the Love-In-A-Mist garden plant. 'Tis blue mind!

She should have been called cokehead

"Yes. And there's Brown ruining everything. It was Brown's reduction of the off-course tax to zero % which enabled low-margin FOBTs to suddenly become viable."


And Betfair.

Betfair was the worst consequence of all. Gave the bookmakers the best tissue they've ever had, and turned them from people with an opinion into penny-chasing middlemen.

Depends how you play. If you look for ricks that's true.  I also like the best tissue.

Betfair turned bookmakers into the worst sort of entrepreneur: the ones who sell something at one price (evens) only if they know they can buy it back at a better one (2.2). The unacceptable face of capitalism.

They used to  bet with each other on-course ( tic-tac ) didn't they ? And have the big firms shorten up prices in the ring. Yeah great days

The difference back then was that if they laid something at evens and had it back at 6/5, that 6/5 was available tax-free to the punters too.

Now you have the choice of taking evens tax-free with the books or 2.2 with commission deducted on here. Tax-free betting at under the odds with the books, or bigger odds on here with your winnings taxed (aka the commission).

..."had it back at 6/5, that 6/5 was available tax-free to the punters too."  Often only if you could run quicker than tic-tic and maybe across the other side of the track too. Never mind all the other opportunities eg. up to  5/1 IR Zoology.

And the situation where there are a few on-course bookies going 6/5 rather than the general evens don't you think the odds on here will be more than 2.2 ?

Handed me my degree in the ceremony and gave the world the ultimate Milf in Nigella.

So wasn't all bad.

RIP

Took down the wicked witch so all good in my book

And i live nearby to a "steel town" that was mekking a decent profit when she and her cohort from the miners battle who knew sweet f a about common decency decided to shut it down no matter what cost to the town and surrounding areas .

Fair play to anutha of her puppets the guy that said get on ya bike - i had nee choice so had to go down South (tebbut) but it was the making of me further down the line

blackbarn -- " "modestly-monikered nigella" - actually her name was not chosen by Nigel, it was suggested by her grandmother, a keen gardener. Nigella is the latin species name for the Love-In-A-Mist garden plant. 'Tis blue mind!"

Hmm. Lord Lawson's full name: Nigel Thomas Lawson.

His children include the coincidentally-monikered Nigella, Thomasina and Thomas Nigel Lawson.

If increasing productivity and automation does not reduce the workforce then there is something seriously. I was a farmer by "profession" and improved productivity has reduced the number of farmers and farm employees by 90% in 50 years. Nobody in politics knows or cares about that. Same situation for small businesses of many sorts. As they are self employed or private limited companies they have no political voice like those who are employed in large organisations. Changes of Government have had a minimal effect on agriculture for 50 years or more.

If increasing productivity and automation does not reduce the workforce then there is something seriously wrong. I was a farmer by "profession" and improved productivity has reduced the number of farmers and farm employees by 90% in 50 years. Nobody in politics knows or cares about that. Same situation for small businesses of many sorts. As they are self employed or private limited companies they have no political voice like those who are employed in large organisations. Changes of Government have had a minimal effect on agriculture for 50 years or more.

A forum first! I managed to edit my message between the first and second attempts to post it!

they now have good reason to reduce the population...especially those that run cars and take holidays