GOAT

The knockers will say like Istabraq and Frankel, what's it beat?

dont be daft

He definitely has one step on the ladder but there is still some way to go. Be great to see him going chasing. I hope we don't get another three or for run season.

*four

If he stays hurdling Brigust you are only going to get a 4 run season max & no doubt the same if chasing. He will never be able to prove to you hes an all time great but im convinced he is.

I agree that my bar is set higher than yours Geoff but it is not my fault you are easy to please. Bula won 38 races, Night Nurse won 32 and Sea Pigeon won 37 to name but a few so I see no reason why CH shouldn't match them, given the opportunity. It is difficult to get over to some people but it does matter what you beat as well. The biggest problem is that many of you have never seen a great horse before being taken on by great horses. But never mind. If you are happy then that is all that matters.

I doubt he'll win as many G1s as Honeysuckle...

Long way to go.

nothing like watching a really good horse to bring racing fans together !

Like punting we all have different views otherwise it would be pointless WK.

i agree brigust . and i think we all respect your views  considering your past history with ' a really good horse ' . i just thought the tone of your reply , on a really wonderful day of racing  , to the poster geoff m was a little harsh and dismissive  . thats all . we all know the difficulties  of comparing generations and , obviously, racing ( like life ) has changed somewhat since the 1970s . i have no argument at all  with the flagging up of sea pigeon; to name one of my favourites is rather uplifting for the memory bank  ! ..enjoy the rest of the week .

Well I apologise to Geoff if he thinks my tone was wrong but I was a bit annoyed that he said he, CH, would never be able to prove to me he is an all time great. That was a bit harsh. The world is his oyster let us see where he goes and what the future holds. I am prepared to wait.
You must remember that these horses will not run against each other so I would prefer their achievements to be at least a little bit comparable. I believe even Phil Bull would have expected that.

thank you for your response brigust . as phil bull said ' when i do express disagreement it is always with the greatest trepidation' ....1946.

Floats around the track, no reason why he shouldn't race 7 or 8 times a season. Hardly having tough races out there.

Unfortunately the racing World doesn't work like that anymore..01

I do not mind one bit anyone having an opposing view to me about a horse either on ability or on price. I welcome them with open arms, as i will never win a bean from someone who agrees with me.
I dont think my comment to you was harsh Brig. BY your own admission you have high standards & theres nowt wrong with that(i do myself) and like to see greats beat other greats(and theres nowt wrong with that either). However lets say Marine Nationale has the ability to be a top class hurdler & potential champion hurdler and he stays hurdling (which by his trainers admission is doubtful if CH remains hurdling). He could mop up 3 hurdles (Morgiana /Xmas Hurdle/Irish Champ Hurdle) and come to Cheltenham get beat 8/10 lengths Nico blowing kisses to the crowd again . MN wont have proved himself cause hes not won a C.Hurdle. Rinse & repeat 2/3 years with all comers(they could be really top class) ,but C.Hill will stop them looking top class.
I cant see the circumstances arising in the future to be able to prove it to the nae sayers. Do we really have to wait for 30 plus victories before the penny drops? Please explain a realistic set of circumstances then to prove it.
You only need to disect the times and sectional times of his SUpreme last year to realise that he was a potential all time great .Good horses cant do that .Only great 1s.
The Champion Hurdle is my favourite race of the year and ive seen em all from Comedy /N.Nurse/Monksfield/S.Pigeon/Istabraq et al.

Geoff you are better than that. You seem to think deciding a horse is the GOAT is simple. Of course if you mean in people's minds then I guess it is. But I require more evidence. And it appears, when I look, the evidence is simply not there. Of course CH is the best round by quite a long way, that is without question, but the best when compared with what?

I remember having a discussion with a top trainer about a good horse and he said "Either we have a good one here or the rest are not a lot".

It takes time to get enough evidence and I am prepared to wait until sufficient evidence is available.

I think it is important that for CH to be considered the GOAT he is proven to be better than something substantial of which, it appears, we are currently sadly in short supply of.

And the only evidence you do apparently rely on is based on time. Well I cannot have that either. Of course you may know more than me on that front but my opinion of times is dismissive. For example when the champions of the 70's were racing they all raced on the same ground around permanent rails and posts. Nowadays the rails are moved to provide specially prepared ground. And, added to that, Cheltenham's track has undergone substantial drainage works over recent years. Perhaps you know what effect that, and the movement of rails, has had on the times? In my opinion there are far too many variables for times to be any sort of deciding factor.

That is why I don't yet consider CH in the running for being the GOAT. You can if you want. I certainly won't hold it against you but I need more evidence and then if I do come to that decision it will be based on hard facts and serious consideration. And certainly not what a bunch of hyped up racing commentators and pundits spew out relentlessly so that they can please viewers, readers or publicise their ratings.

Beat the worst field assembled for a Champion Hurdle in living memory.

Race run slower than the Supreme ultimately - almost 2.5 second slower latency between first and seventh hurdles.

No way can you label this beast the GOAT based on what it has achieved so far and with it likely to co chasing next season the accolade will be nonsensical.

Pure hype

As far as I can recall Brig, I dont think it rained or the clerk of the course changed the alignment of the course between last years Supreme and the Champion Hurdle .That race times & sectional times told you all you need to know about CHs potential to be the GOAT.

Good morning, Geoff. I was talking historically about the racecourse. I remember when a Timeform rep as on TV and Lydia asked him how important it was that Frankel never broke any course records or ran fast times over the full distance. The rep replied that at Ascot the straight mile record is held by Invisible Man and that Frankel is rated stones better than Invisible Man. You see Timeform want it both ways. When it suits them it matters and when it doesn't suit them it doesn't matter. They are a commercial organisation.

No such thing as a great horse only a great race? Have Frankel, Flightline or Constitution Hill have ever been in a great race?

Morning Brig.Its not about the fast time breaking the course record in isolation. Its what CH did in the Supreme(whilst Nicos winding down waving to the crowd) when you look @ sectional times combined with overall compared with Honeysuckle that makes him stand out. I think its reasonable to assume State Man would have won any of the last 3 champion hurdles quite comfortably.Clearly tuesday showed Honeysuckle hasnt gone @ the game. Then you would have a 3 time CHampion Hurdler getting mullered by Constitution without breaking sweat. Then you might be thinking he could possibly be the GOAT. As ive stated earlier its impossible going forward for CH to prove to you hes up their with the GOAT if he remains hurdling. Circumstances combined with the program wont allow that .If you think theirs a scenario. WOuld love to hear from you.

Life Lucky

No such thing as a great horse only a great race?

Your State Man suggestion was used by Nick Luck on Tuesday only he thought State Man could win 8 Champion Hurdles. He omitted to add that only one County Hurdle winner has won a single Champion Hurdle since WWII. Maybe that shows the quality of the Group 1 races lately?

Unlike you Geoff I need to give him more time to prove himself to be in line for GOAT. Some people are easily pleased. I am not saying he cannot be considered for that accolade and he is certainly on the ladder but I just need more evidence. If everything wasn't hyped as much as it is today it would be better.

I remember when Native Trail arrived by horsebox to Newmarket for the 2000 Guineas he was introduced as the best horse in the world by Matt Chapman. And I remember when Ghaiyyath won the Juddmonte he was claimed to be the best in the world then was beaten next time. There is too much hype everywhere for some unknown reason. 

I had a good bet on CH in November for the CH and I will continue to back him against the current opposition. It is like buying money.

As said previously CH has the "potential" to be an all time great,no more and no less,Harbinger was never the best in the world after smashing the record at Ascot and never would have been even had he got the chance.The argument about Kauto or Arkle for example in terms of best ever,for me it has to be Kauto based on achievement over a long period but the Arkle camp will argue their case of superiority in a generation that the opposition imo was a tiny pool of talent,like it is now in terms of what CH faces.

When CH has won another 2 Champion Hurdles we may then consider him ahead of the previous greats based on performances in those races and dependent on opposition we have yet to see,hailing him the greatest ever at this stage would be like giving Henry Cooper the accolade had he beat The Greatest in one fight!!! imvho

Yes, great horses need to beat other great horses (Kauto Star needed Denman, Arkle needed Mill House). Sadly for CH, there aren't any of those in the hurdling division at the moment.

Do all the races have to be grade 1 conditions races??

Lets imagine there were only handicaps during the season...

If Constitution Hill gives 2 stone and a beating to the county hurdle winner State Man, you couldn't argue that it wasn't a good performance. 

And then start stepping him up in trip!!

Fair point, but no chance he will run in a handicap hurdle, ever. It is a loss to the sport since the days of Dessie and Arkle.

He can win the next 2 or 3 Champion Hurdles putting up lesser performances than he has already, and then the nae sayers will consider him one of the all time greats .Madness.

Do you think he will stay hurdling Geoff? Hendo is very conservative, so I'm sure that's what he'd like, but Buckley is obviously dreaming about a future over fences. I'd like him to stay over hurdles because his jumping is poetry in motion, but that's just being selfish.

When Rolf Harris was doing his sketches no doubt you needed him to complete them before you could tell what it was I personally backed him the same evening as his SUpreme win @ 4.1 Brig after doing the sectionals in comparison with the Champion Hurdle before Prufrock had probably already done his!!

Buckley said on interview " what about the Ascot Gold Cup "

Think it may have been tongue in cheek but not that sure.

At the end of the day he'll decide the ultimate route with some advice from his staff.

Geoff if Shishkin had retired before Cheltenham last year the claims would be that he was an all time great. THe superlatives would be pouring out. Retiring horses or crowning horses too soon can be fraught with dangers. There is nothing mad about wanting them to be properly proven.

Well done with the bet I cannot deny that he is the best horse around by a wide margin at the moment but the question from me is 'better than what', and will he continue? He has every chance to be up there. I will form my own opinion but having worked with horses and knowing the huge difference between 'class' horses and the rest I hope he is taken on by something decent in the future.

To quote Mike Atherton (and doubtless others), "great is an overused word in sport".

Does that stayers hurdle not make you think that the quality of the majority of hurdlers is not great?

Brig .On what basis would anyone in their right mind compare Shishkin to being an all time great if he had retired before CHeltenham last year.

With regards to this mysterious something decent in the future to come along .What would its C.V look like? Before taking on Constitution.

I didn't think anyone in their right minds would think State Man would win 8 champion hurdles out of ten. Hype nowadays from the odd trainer and the media is quite incredible. Be sure if anything comes along for me to consider it good enough to test CH I will let you know. I don't even know what route CH is going to go down so any suggestion would be pointless.

Assume Ch remains hurdling.

Prior to tuesday it would be reasonable to assume State Man would have won the last 3. and from memory the 2017/18/19 renewals where hardly classics.  Probably going back to Faugheen before he would have given best

You are now telling me what I already know and is the basis of the problem. The strength in depth of current hurdlers for a few years has been poor. Could that be the reason why CH looks exceptional and not just good? Methinks you now understand the nub of the problem.

kop on ffs

Champion Hurdle most successful horse (3 wins):

Hatton's Grace – 1949, 1950, 1951
Sir Ken – 1952, 1953, 1954
Persian War – 1968, 1969, 1970
See You Then – 1985, 1986, 1987
Istabraq – 1998, 1999, 2000

^^ I don't get your point.

Istabraq in 2001 was 1/2 favourite to win the race again, for an unprecedented fourth time. Foot and mouth hit and stopped a record what would never of been beat

brigust117 Mar 23 09:05Joined: 07 Dec 01 | Topic/replies: 12,988 | Blogger: brigust1's blog
^^ I don't get your point

Come back when its won three champion hurdles, which wont happen because poison nicky is a fecking nightmare

Quantity of wins must be a factor in greatness, but it can't be the only one. Otherwise Hurricane Fly with his 23(ish) Grade 1 wins is clearly the best of all time (but no one seriously argues that). So CH still has some way to go on both the quantity and ratings fronts. What does stand out is his amazing time in the 2022 Supreme.

If you were in charge of marketing racing to the wider public, showed them three videos and asked them to rank them in terms of excitement then:

1. Arazi's Breeders' Cup Juvenile tops the list
2. Frankel's explosive Guineas would be a close second
3. CH's Champion Hurdle would be a distant third place

Yes, CH is clearly very good but does he set my pulse racing? No. Roll on the Flat I say.

I'd love to have seen Frankel over hurdles.

if he wins a Champion Chase or Gold Cup his greatness is undeniable

if he just stays hurdling and wins 2 more CH and 2 or 3 other races a season would be hard to say he was greater then many past hurdling heroes

Mar 17, 2023 -- 1:47PM, A_T wrote:

if he wins a Champion Chase or Gold Cup his greatness is undeniableif he just stays hurdling and wins 2 more CH and 2 or 3 other races a season would be hard to say he was greater then many past hurdling heroes

Spot on...
He'll never get the recognition as a great horse he if only sticks to hurdling!!  Its legend now that the 70's was the best era for hurdlers

But if he wins the Cheltenham Gold Cup then he will be a great!