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Revolution needed to stop Irish Derby decline - so make it a mile and a quarter
Here's a question. What's the link between the Dubai Duty Free Irish Derby, the Hyland Racecolours Toorak Handicap, the Clark Stakes Presented by Norton Healthcare and the Kikuka-Sho?
Think about it, while I quote HRI chief executive Suzanne Eade, who invoked an oft-repeated mantra when addressing a parliamentary committee last week: "Ireland is a global leader in horseracing and breeding."
In many respects, it's a justifiable boast. And timely, one might think, in the build-up to Ireland's 'premier Classic', a race with a wonderful history and a distinguished roll of honour, hosted by a splendid racecourse lately redeveloped at a cost of €81.2 million.
Many of us have known the Irish Derby as a sporting and social highlight of the Irish summer. That was then. Now, it is an increasingly inconsequential event in the hierarchy of major races.
We know that because the answer to my question is that the 2021 Irish Derby occupied joint-94th position in the 2021 Longines worldwide rankings, sharing that place with, among others, the 25th-ranked Australian race, the 18th-ranked US race, and the 11th-ranked Japanese race, that country's version of the St Leger incidentally.
Sixty years ago the first running of the 1866-inaugurated Irish Derby under the Sweeps banner steered the race out of a domestic backwater into the mainstream of international racing.
- so make it a mile and a quarter
1 of 1
2:00PM, JUN 22 2022
Here's a question. What's the link between the Dubai Duty Free Irish Derby, the Hyland Racecolours Toorak Handicap, the Clark Stakes Presented by Norton Healthcare and the Kikuka-Sho?
Think about it, while I quote HRI chief executive Suzanne Eade, who invoked an oft-repeated mantra when addressing a parliamentary committee last week: "Ireland is a global leader in horseracing and breeding."
In many respects, it's a justifiable boast. And timely, one might think, in the build-up to Ireland's 'premier Classic', a race with a wonderful history and a distinguished roll of honour, hosted by a splendid racecourse lately redeveloped at a cost of €81.2 million.
Many of us have known the Irish Derby as a sporting and social highlight of the Irish summer. That was then. Now, it is an increasingly inconsequential event in the hierarchy of major races.
We know that because the answer to my question is that the 2021 Irish Derby occupied joint-94th position in the 2021 Longines worldwide rankings, sharing that place with, among others, the 25th-ranked Australian race, the 18th-ranked US race, and the 11th-ranked Japanese race, that country's version of the St Leger incidentally.
Sixty years ago the first running of the 1866-inaugurated Irish Derby under the Sweeps banner steered the race out of a domestic backwater into the mainstream of international racing.
Santa Claus wins the 1964 Irish Sweeps Derby at the Curragh
Santa Claus wins the 1964 Irish Sweeps Derby at the Curragh
Sport and General
The glories of the Sweeps era are illustrated by the dual Derby exploits of Santa Claus, Nijinsky, Grundy, The Minstrel, Shirley Heights, Troy and Shergar. Perhaps the race sometimes felt like an act of coronation for an Epsom-derived heir presumptive, but it had status, distinction and prestige. The Sweeps sponsorship drew outstanding Derby winners to the Curragh, one of whom, Sir Ivor, was famously beaten by the Lester Piggott-ridden Ribero in 1968.
Gradually the excitement and glamour ebbed away, although the allure of the race remained powerful for major international owners and leading European trainers.
The advent of the Budweiser sponsorship in 1986 drew the two strands together again. Mike Roarty and his team introduced some American razzmatazz and Irish Derby day was rejuvenated.
It was an occasion for everyone. It was a seasonal highlight for regular racegoers, an abundant and thriving species at a time when the sport still enjoyed a high profile in the weekend entertainment listings. The metropolitan socialites turned out in force, well-heeled, expensively hatted. Kildare locals, proud of an event that put their county on the map, mixed with the once-a-year trippers, busloads from pubs and clubs all over Ireland, trainloads too, all cheerfully knocking back pints of the sponsor's brew.
Sometimes we moaned about the export of the big prize, by which criterion an imperious St Jovite in 1992 was the only bright spot between Law Society in 1985 and shock 1996 winner Zagreb. Yet the race grew in stature through the 1990s and there was even a heady period when it threatened to usurp the Epsom prototype, hailed by the cognoscenti as a more meaningful test of midsummer form at a fairer track.
It became a key race in assessing the relative merits of the Derby and Prix du Jockey-Club. In beating the subsequent Arc winner Suave Dancer in 1991, Generous established that tone. Two years later Commander In Chief triumphed over Hernando. In 1995 Andre Fabre's Winged Love emphatically reversed Chantilly form with Celtic Swing.
The decade ended with Chantilly winners Dream Well and Montjeu doubling up at the Curragh, while the next five years gave us five home-trained winners, including two of outstanding merit in Sinndar and Galileo.
That's the nostalgia bit. The modern-day reality is stark. In the past ten years the Irish Derby has attracted a paltry 13 overseas challengers: a dozen from Britain and one from France. Of the 13, three came for the 2018 race, another three last year.
Forgettable winners have outnumbered the memorable, with any genuine stars sent off at odds to reflect a paucity of opposition. Camelot was 1-5 in 2012, Australia 1-8 in 2014, with Harzand at least a more backable 4-6 in 2016.
By and large we can attribute the fall-off in international participation to the dominance assumed by Ballydoyle and Coolmore in the mile-and-a-half division from the late 1990s onwards, although that was not the only factor. Aidan O'Brien's seven in a row between 2006 and 2012 took place in the aftermath of a 2005 move by the French, changing the distance to the Prix du Jockey-Club in response to evolving fashions in the breeding industry.
These days, a stand-alone Irish Derby winner is an unappealing stallion prospect in commercial terms. An Irish-trained Epsom winner may not damage his reputation by taking in the race as a lap of honour but there is no longer any incentive for a British-trained winner to travel to the Curragh, while the French just stay at home.
On Saturday the Derby third takes on an Oaks winner. I've read it described as "a mouthwatering prospect". I guess it would be if you hadn't had a drink for a while.
What's the solution? In a letter to the Irish Field this year, BBA Ireland director Patrick Cooper made a radical proposal to halt the race's slide into insignificance.
Cooper suggested taking a leaf out of the French book. Reduce the distance to ten furlongs. With that single action, you tempt the Derby winner to drop in trip to enhance his appeal as a putative stallion, you encourage the various Guineas winners and other high-class milers to have a go, you offer the Classic generation an alternative to the Eclipse, and you attract the French again.
Now you have a proper midseason championship race, one you can market. Sweeps and Budweiser did it before, making the Irish Derby a genuinely significant horse race with a proper sense of occasion. It can be done. In fact, it must be done; joint-94th is not good enough for a global leader.
This column is exclusive to Members' Club Ultimate subscribers. Members can read more great columns here:
Here's a question. What's the link between the Dubai Duty Free Irish Derby, the Hyland Racecolours Toorak Handicap, the Clark Stakes Presented by Norton Healthcare and the Kikuka-Sho?
Think about it, while I quote HRI chief executive Suzanne Eade, who invoked an oft-repeated mantra when addressing a parliamentary committee last week: "Ireland is a global leader in horseracing and breeding."
In many respects, it's a justifiable boast. And timely, one might think, in the build-up to Ireland's 'premier Classic', a race with a wonderful history and a distinguished roll of honour, hosted by a splendid racecourse lately redeveloped at a cost of €81.2 million.
Many of us have known the Irish Derby as a sporting and social highlight of the Irish summer. That was then. Now, it is an increasingly inconsequential event in the hierarchy of major races.
We know that because the answer to my question is that the 2021 Irish Derby occupied joint-94th position in the 2021 Longines worldwide rankings, sharing that place with, among others, the 25th-ranked Australian race, the 18th-ranked US race, and the 11th-ranked Japanese race, that country's version of the St Leger incidentally.
Sixty years ago the first running of the 1866-inaugurated Irish Derby under the Sweeps banner steered the race out of a domestic backwater into the mainstream of international racing.
- so make it a mile and a quarter
1 of 1
2:00PM, JUN 22 2022
Here's a question. What's the link between the Dubai Duty Free Irish Derby, the Hyland Racecolours Toorak Handicap, the Clark Stakes Presented by Norton Healthcare and the Kikuka-Sho?
Think about it, while I quote HRI chief executive Suzanne Eade, who invoked an oft-repeated mantra when addressing a parliamentary committee last week: "Ireland is a global leader in horseracing and breeding."
In many respects, it's a justifiable boast. And timely, one might think, in the build-up to Ireland's 'premier Classic', a race with a wonderful history and a distinguished roll of honour, hosted by a splendid racecourse lately redeveloped at a cost of €81.2 million.
Many of us have known the Irish Derby as a sporting and social highlight of the Irish summer. That was then. Now, it is an increasingly inconsequential event in the hierarchy of major races.
We know that because the answer to my question is that the 2021 Irish Derby occupied joint-94th position in the 2021 Longines worldwide rankings, sharing that place with, among others, the 25th-ranked Australian race, the 18th-ranked US race, and the 11th-ranked Japanese race, that country's version of the St Leger incidentally.
Sixty years ago the first running of the 1866-inaugurated Irish Derby under the Sweeps banner steered the race out of a domestic backwater into the mainstream of international racing.
Santa Claus wins the 1964 Irish Sweeps Derby at the Curragh
Santa Claus wins the 1964 Irish Sweeps Derby at the Curragh
Sport and General
The glories of the Sweeps era are illustrated by the dual Derby exploits of Santa Claus, Nijinsky, Grundy, The Minstrel, Shirley Heights, Troy and Shergar. Perhaps the race sometimes felt like an act of coronation for an Epsom-derived heir presumptive, but it had status, distinction and prestige. The Sweeps sponsorship drew outstanding Derby winners to the Curragh, one of whom, Sir Ivor, was famously beaten by the Lester Piggott-ridden Ribero in 1968.
Gradually the excitement and glamour ebbed away, although the allure of the race remained powerful for major international owners and leading European trainers.
The advent of the Budweiser sponsorship in 1986 drew the two strands together again. Mike Roarty and his team introduced some American razzmatazz and Irish Derby day was rejuvenated.
It was an occasion for everyone. It was a seasonal highlight for regular racegoers, an abundant and thriving species at a time when the sport still enjoyed a high profile in the weekend entertainment listings. The metropolitan socialites turned out in force, well-heeled, expensively hatted. Kildare locals, proud of an event that put their county on the map, mixed with the once-a-year trippers, busloads from pubs and clubs all over Ireland, trainloads too, all cheerfully knocking back pints of the sponsor's brew.
Sometimes we moaned about the export of the big prize, by which criterion an imperious St Jovite in 1992 was the only bright spot between Law Society in 1985 and shock 1996 winner Zagreb. Yet the race grew in stature through the 1990s and there was even a heady period when it threatened to usurp the Epsom prototype, hailed by the cognoscenti as a more meaningful test of midsummer form at a fairer track.
It became a key race in assessing the relative merits of the Derby and Prix du Jockey-Club. In beating the subsequent Arc winner Suave Dancer in 1991, Generous established that tone. Two years later Commander In Chief triumphed over Hernando. In 1995 Andre Fabre's Winged Love emphatically reversed Chantilly form with Celtic Swing.
The decade ended with Chantilly winners Dream Well and Montjeu doubling up at the Curragh, while the next five years gave us five home-trained winners, including two of outstanding merit in Sinndar and Galileo.
That's the nostalgia bit. The modern-day reality is stark. In the past ten years the Irish Derby has attracted a paltry 13 overseas challengers: a dozen from Britain and one from France. Of the 13, three came for the 2018 race, another three last year.
Forgettable winners have outnumbered the memorable, with any genuine stars sent off at odds to reflect a paucity of opposition. Camelot was 1-5 in 2012, Australia 1-8 in 2014, with Harzand at least a more backable 4-6 in 2016.
By and large we can attribute the fall-off in international participation to the dominance assumed by Ballydoyle and Coolmore in the mile-and-a-half division from the late 1990s onwards, although that was not the only factor. Aidan O'Brien's seven in a row between 2006 and 2012 took place in the aftermath of a 2005 move by the French, changing the distance to the Prix du Jockey-Club in response to evolving fashions in the breeding industry.
These days, a stand-alone Irish Derby winner is an unappealing stallion prospect in commercial terms. An Irish-trained Epsom winner may not damage his reputation by taking in the race as a lap of honour but there is no longer any incentive for a British-trained winner to travel to the Curragh, while the French just stay at home.
On Saturday the Derby third takes on an Oaks winner. I've read it described as "a mouthwatering prospect". I guess it would be if you hadn't had a drink for a while.
What's the solution? In a letter to the Irish Field this year, BBA Ireland director Patrick Cooper made a radical proposal to halt the race's slide into insignificance.
Cooper suggested taking a leaf out of the French book. Reduce the distance to ten furlongs. With that single action, you tempt the Derby winner to drop in trip to enhance his appeal as a putative stallion, you encourage the various Guineas winners and other high-class milers to have a go, you offer the Classic generation an alternative to the Eclipse, and you attract the French again.
Now you have a proper midseason championship race, one you can market. Sweeps and Budweiser did it before, making the Irish Derby a genuinely significant horse race with a proper sense of occasion. It can be done. In fact, it must be done; joint-94th is not good enough for a global leader.
This column is exclusive to Members' Club Ultimate subscribers. Members can read more great columns here:
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The thread title is out of order, imo, when Ireland's premier Classic is ranked only 94th in the world, rather than whinge about it, Sweetman has proposed a 'solution'.
Now, you could be cynical and say "funny how this article has appeared at a time when Coolmore's lack of quality amongst their middle distance colts means they're having to supplement a filly for the race", but as Sweetman points out, the race has been suffering from a lack on international quality for some time.
Now, you could be cynical and say "funny how this article has appeared at a time when Coolmore's lack of quality amongst their middle distance colts means they're having to supplement a filly for the race", but as Sweetman points out, the race has been suffering from a lack on international quality for some time.
I agree entirely that there's no need to insult the man. He's a decent journalist, who isn't at all big-headed (unlike many once they get a public persona), sometimes posts on here, is expressing an opinion, and backing it up with some facts.
I'd be interested to know how the Longines race rankings are arrived at. I've done a quick search online and have found the 2019 rankings, and see that the Goodwood Cup appears at =55, just 2 spots below the Epsom Derby, and above all other English Classics. Personally, I'd like to see staying races do well, and don't want distances dropped, but I can't see how the Goodwood Cup can rate so highly.
https://www.ifhaonline.org/resources/WTGradedRanking/LWGRank.asp?batch=3
They can't just be based on prize money, otherwise Eastern races would dominate much more than they do in this list.
They can't be based on the quality of horse competing, otherwise the Goodwood Cup wouldn't get a look in.
I'd be interested to know how the Longines race rankings are arrived at. I've done a quick search online and have found the 2019 rankings, and see that the Goodwood Cup appears at =55, just 2 spots below the Epsom Derby, and above all other English Classics. Personally, I'd like to see staying races do well, and don't want distances dropped, but I can't see how the Goodwood Cup can rate so highly.
https://www.ifhaonline.org/resources/WTGradedRanking/LWGRank.asp?batch=3
They can't just be based on prize money, otherwise Eastern races would dominate much more than they do in this list.
They can't be based on the quality of horse competing, otherwise the Goodwood Cup wouldn't get a look in.
I dont see it. Sorry.
Moving the ID to 10f wont make much difference. You may get the AOB guineas also rans instead of his derby also rans. Big deal. The French runners do 3 races before taking the summer off and back for the arc in the autumn.
If the Aga has one that gets murdered at chantilly then its back to paris for the grand prix.
THe Arc is europes biggest race. Its 12f. End of.
English 10f horses will go to the Eclipse. Why bother going across the sea?
The Irish Dby has been farmed by AOB, like a lot of races in Ire and in the UK. The suggestion is that with Galileo no longer with us, the likes of Frankel and Sea The Stars are going to be siring the derby winners of the future.
Maybe this will lead to a more open spread of classic winning owners and trainers. Maybe not.
Even so shifting the ID from its historic distance to a new one seems to me to be something of little reward for quite a big risk.
If the Curragh want to revitalise their premier classic then they might consider slashing the entry price from the eyebrow raising fifty euros.
Moving the ID to 10f wont make much difference. You may get the AOB guineas also rans instead of his derby also rans. Big deal. The French runners do 3 races before taking the summer off and back for the arc in the autumn.
If the Aga has one that gets murdered at chantilly then its back to paris for the grand prix.
THe Arc is europes biggest race. Its 12f. End of.
English 10f horses will go to the Eclipse. Why bother going across the sea?
The Irish Dby has been farmed by AOB, like a lot of races in Ire and in the UK. The suggestion is that with Galileo no longer with us, the likes of Frankel and Sea The Stars are going to be siring the derby winners of the future.
Maybe this will lead to a more open spread of classic winning owners and trainers. Maybe not.
Even so shifting the ID from its historic distance to a new one seems to me to be something of little reward for quite a big risk.
If the Curragh want to revitalise their premier classic then they might consider slashing the entry price from the eyebrow raising fifty euros.
Derby horses are 12F horses to me,not 10F.
Hope it stays 12F.Just my view but the French
Derby's not the same run over the 10F.
Hope it stays 12F.Just my view but the French
Derby's not the same run over the 10F.
The Classic distance is still 12f and needs to be left alone.
They evidently took a positive view that in the 2019 Goodwood Cup, Stradivarius beat the previous year's Derby runner-up and Melbourne Cup winner.
This is what it says regarding the horse rankings:
https://www.ifhaonline.org/default.asp?section=racing&area=1
The ratings are compiled under the auspices of The International Federation of Horseracing Authorities (IFHA) by racing officials & handicappers representing the five continents who compile the ranking order by agreeing on the rating for each horse. The ratings are based on the performance of horses in elite races held during the designated period which takes in account the quality of opposition and achievements of each horse. Throughout the year the Longines Rankings are published at regular intervals and the consolidated annual rankings are released in January. The annual rankings denote the champions in the various distance categories for example sprint or mile, surface either turf or dirt/artificial and also the fillies & mares category.
This is what it says regarding the horse rankings:
https://www.ifhaonline.org/default.asp?section=racing&area=1
The ratings are compiled under the auspices of The International Federation of Horseracing Authorities (IFHA) by racing officials & handicappers representing the five continents who compile the ranking order by agreeing on the rating for each horse. The ratings are based on the performance of horses in elite races held during the designated period which takes in account the quality of opposition and achievements of each horse. Throughout the year the Longines Rankings are published at regular intervals and the consolidated annual rankings are released in January. The annual rankings denote the champions in the various distance categories for example sprint or mile, surface either turf or dirt/artificial and also the fillies & mares category.
I have great respect for Alan as a journalist , he prints things others fear to expose . The Irish Derby has been in decline for many years , but turning it into a 10 furlong race is NOT the answer...Fashion is a fickle thing , Coolmore building Deep Impact into a go to sire shows how fickle it is...
This constant worldwide reduction in the length of famous races has to stop or we might as well get prepared for quarter-horse racing.
Goodwood Cup,French Derby,Prix du Gladiateur,Yorkshire Cup and many more.
Racing was more fun when there was more variety. Now 10f is the new staying distance.
Perhaps we should only let horses who have won over a certain distance stand as stallions.
Goodwood Cup,French Derby,Prix du Gladiateur,Yorkshire Cup and many more.
Racing was more fun when there was more variety. Now 10f is the new staying distance.
Perhaps we should only let horses who have won over a certain distance stand as stallions.
Salmon a fair point, with the Deep Impact line starting to be used more, maybe stamina is on the way back hopefully...
This has the makings of an interesting debate. And from my point of view, the main purpose of the article was to stimulate such a debate, because I think most of those of us who actually care about these things recognise that the Irish Derby - for a period one of the great races of Europe - has been in serious decline for too long. I tried to give a sense of the race's history and its former prestige, and proposed a solution because I don't like simply "having a go" without suggesting something at least notionally constructive. But in a sense, the article was intended as a sort of "cat among pigeons" piece at a time when the race is topical. I'm pretty much a traditionalist myself, so I actually share some of the reservations made by other posters. I've already mapped out a follow-up piece for next week; that will deal with some of the points raised here. Thanks to those of you who have said nice things about me, and I take no offence from the headline post. If you express an opinion you have to be able to take the rough with the smooth….no problem there... thank you all for contributing.
alans - interesting article as always, and good that it has generated a bit of debate about a race that is struggling.
The majority view seems to be to stick at 12 furlongs and I tend to agree. However, something has to change or the race will die on its bottom. My solution, and I know I'll get shot down for this, is to open the race up to older horses (no geldings allowed). We've done it here in Ireland with our Leger, and I think it has reinvigorated that race substantially. I know there will be the argument that the Derby should be a stallion making race, but it could still be even with older horses allowed in. In fact it could be an even bigger marker of a 3yos ability if he beats his elders. Certainly moreso than what Irish Derby winners have been generally defeating in recent times.
Im sure the European Pattern Committee won't entertain the idea, as a race like I am proposing could possibly damage the Eclipse or even the King George, but outside of altering the distance I cannot see a way to revive the race.
The majority view seems to be to stick at 12 furlongs and I tend to agree. However, something has to change or the race will die on its bottom. My solution, and I know I'll get shot down for this, is to open the race up to older horses (no geldings allowed). We've done it here in Ireland with our Leger, and I think it has reinvigorated that race substantially. I know there will be the argument that the Derby should be a stallion making race, but it could still be even with older horses allowed in. In fact it could be an even bigger marker of a 3yos ability if he beats his elders. Certainly moreso than what Irish Derby winners have been generally defeating in recent times.
Im sure the European Pattern Committee won't entertain the idea, as a race like I am proposing could possibly damage the Eclipse or even the King George, but outside of altering the distance I cannot see a way to revive the race.
I am not in favour of reducing the distance. I thank all Derbys should be 12f.and for 3 year olds.
Without a doubt it has declined as a race this century.
The winner gets about half a million, Epsom winner gets K900.
Maybe an increase in prize money would help, say give the winner at least a million
Without a doubt it has declined as a race this century.
The winner gets about half a million, Epsom winner gets K900.
Maybe an increase in prize money would help, say give the winner at least a million
This constant worldwide reduction in the length of famous races has to stop or we might as well get prepared for quarter-horse racing.
Pretty much already happened in greyhound racing all races.
Pretty much already happened in greyhound racing all races.
Nothing wrong with opinions and possible solutions.
One thing for sure , it is a pathetic turnout and not the first in the last 20 years) for a first prize of almost 600,000 Euros.
One thing for sure , it is a pathetic turnout and not the first in the last 20 years) for a first prize of almost 600,000 Euros.
Before we take a bazooka to the race with 4yo and dropping distances maybe we could try a more softly approach to tweak it's standing.
The race was massively enhanced for a period in the earlier days of AOB and his fresh new stars but his stranglehold on it with a scattergun approach latterly did neither the race or the reputation of his winner of it no favours .
His list of entries at the five day stage frightened off many possible participants who didn't bother to declare leaving a free run for him to have a 1 2 3 etc.
Not his fault of course but with the loss of Galileo the middle distance races might open up a bit now and owner breeders might start returning to this distance again helping the race in the next few years.
The tweaking option could be to waive the supplementary fee for any colt that wins a recognised trial in Britain France and Ireland or is placed in any of their 2000gns.
If you only got one or two a year it would be worthwhile but obviously it could play havoc with the traditional entry system as the bigger operations might not block enter as usual.
Possibly allowing only one free entry this way per stable and must be entered the day after the trial might solve this problem .
Another possible tweak could be to limit declarations to two per stable giving the smaller operations hope that after paying entry fees all the way through they are swamped by six from one stable although as I said above this might not be an issue going forward and as said in an earlier post an increase in prize money is an obvious option.
This year's is certainly a poor renewal but races can sometimes go through lull's in fashion for many reasons.
The race was massively enhanced for a period in the earlier days of AOB and his fresh new stars but his stranglehold on it with a scattergun approach latterly did neither the race or the reputation of his winner of it no favours .
His list of entries at the five day stage frightened off many possible participants who didn't bother to declare leaving a free run for him to have a 1 2 3 etc.
Not his fault of course but with the loss of Galileo the middle distance races might open up a bit now and owner breeders might start returning to this distance again helping the race in the next few years.
The tweaking option could be to waive the supplementary fee for any colt that wins a recognised trial in Britain France and Ireland or is placed in any of their 2000gns.
If you only got one or two a year it would be worthwhile but obviously it could play havoc with the traditional entry system as the bigger operations might not block enter as usual.
Possibly allowing only one free entry this way per stable and must be entered the day after the trial might solve this problem .
Another possible tweak could be to limit declarations to two per stable giving the smaller operations hope that after paying entry fees all the way through they are swamped by six from one stable although as I said above this might not be an issue going forward and as said in an earlier post an increase in prize money is an obvious option.
This year's is certainly a poor renewal but races can sometimes go through lull's in fashion for many reasons.
Although I baulk at the idea of a 'Derby' not being 12f I do find the concept of a Group 1 over 10 furlongs intriguing. It would be unique wouldn't it?
Opening up to older horses just brings it into direct competition with the King George.
Opening up to older horses just brings it into direct competition with the King George.
Maybe they should downgrade it from a G1.... No point in having a national hunt wanna-be-sire winning it and getting easy G1 race!!
The Irish Champion Stakes is the race they should be promoting. Jockey Club and Epsom winner meeting in it and then on to the Arc.
The Irish Champion Stakes is the race they should be promoting. Jockey Club and Epsom winner meeting in it and then on to the Arc.
downgrading the irish derby will happen the day after im crowned rose of tralee. (extremely unlikely, in case you were wondering)
its tricky and im too daft to dismiss sweetie or suggest an alternative. it does not need to carry on as it is, and i dont agree its cyclical.
the mess made of the curragh hasnt helped either, despite the course itself probably being the best there is. if you walk epsom you wouldnt believe anyone thought it a good idea to race there.
its tricky and im too daft to dismiss sweetie or suggest an alternative. it does not need to carry on as it is, and i dont agree its cyclical.
the mess made of the curragh hasnt helped either, despite the course itself probably being the best there is. if you walk epsom you wouldnt believe anyone thought it a good idea to race there.
I've not been to the "new" Curragh, but previously it has to be one one of the worst places to go racing in Ireland.
Fairyhouse/Leopardstown much better.
You are wishing against hope that the Irish Derby can continue to be won by bad horses and still keep its G1.
Fairyhouse/Leopardstown much better.
You are wishing against hope that the Irish Derby can continue to be won by bad horses and still keep its G1.
it was, hence the upgrade. but they made a big mistake allowing an airport to be built next to it.
If the issue is that the race is no longer the great, hugely anticipated event in the Calendar you say it once was, then the quality/ratings of the competitors is not necessarily the issue. If you're going to revamp the race, do so in a way which makes it unique, rather than simply changing it from an ersatz Derby to an ersatz Prix du Jockey Club.
My suggestion? Make it a (very) limited handicap, like some of those great American Grade 1 races. Maybe the race would lose its Group 1 status, but who cares? As long as it retains its 12 furlong distance, why wouldn't the Epsom Derby and Oaks winners and placed horse take each other on again? You might say, why would the Epsom winners want to give weight away to the placed horses at The Curragh? Well, for one thing, to do so successfully would by definition boost their official ratings, with the prestige that comes with it. And it would be a hell of a marketing boost to an Epsom-winning stallion to go on and give that weight away at The Curragh. A unique feat really - which brings me back to my original point - that it would make the Curragh race itself unique, and give it something to shout about on its own terms.
My suggestion? Make it a (very) limited handicap, like some of those great American Grade 1 races. Maybe the race would lose its Group 1 status, but who cares? As long as it retains its 12 furlong distance, why wouldn't the Epsom Derby and Oaks winners and placed horse take each other on again? You might say, why would the Epsom winners want to give weight away to the placed horses at The Curragh? Well, for one thing, to do so successfully would by definition boost their official ratings, with the prestige that comes with it. And it would be a hell of a marketing boost to an Epsom-winning stallion to go on and give that weight away at The Curragh. A unique feat really - which brings me back to my original point - that it would make the Curragh race itself unique, and give it something to shout about on its own terms.
the handicap idea is a good one, but a classic really should be off level weights.
The race to attract the derby/oaks winners is the King George/Arc
you've hit the nail on the head with the comment "the race is no longer the great, hugely anticipated event in the Calendar"
The race to attract the derby/oaks winners is the King George/Arc
you've hit the nail on the head with the comment "the race is no longer the great, hugely anticipated event in the Calendar"
perhaps as a limited handicap you'd get the same sort of build-up as the Grand national does. How does the Derby form compare to the Oaks?? Is there some classic trial winner lurking down in the weights that might have been laid out for this? Is the Irish handicapper being too lenient on the home entries? Maybe some Coolmore rep can fulfil the Michael O'Leary role, complaining to the press that their Epsom winner has been crucified.
Good or bad, it would all be publicity. And no, it would no longer be a classic, but that's the whole point of my idea - it would be something special instead.
Good or bad, it would all be publicity. And no, it would no longer be a classic, but that's the whole point of my idea - it would be something special instead.
Westover's running in it this year,nothing stopping
Desert Crown from turning up to be fair.
Used to get some French Derby horses run aswell.
Nothing since that was changed to 10F.Only Sotsass
has gone on to win the Arc since it has & that was
as a 4yr old.
Desert Crown from turning up to be fair.
Used to get some French Derby horses run aswell.
Nothing since that was changed to 10F.Only Sotsass
has gone on to win the Arc since it has & that was
as a 4yr old.
A limited handicap, why not turn it into a 6 fur race for 3 year olds , I know its lost a fair bit of its lustre over the years but come on ,how many Epsom winners have turned out to be Great . Epsom is a guessing game and only fills the headlines because nobody is sure if Any horse will stay the distance, least we forget several of the recent Epsom winners wouldn't have made top weight in the Ebor if they had been entered imo...So the ONLY reason Epsom retains it prestige is simply because we DON'T know exactly the strength of the field its only after we do... If the timing of Epsom and the Curragh were reversed we would have people saying Epsom should be turned into a 10 fur limited H/cap or worse still a all aged event.
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