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22 Mar 22
11:59
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Interesting to know how you can avoid winding up bookmakers, whilst still trying to win.
Thanks
Interesting to know how you can avoid winding up bookmakers, whilst still trying to win.
Thanks
Show More
Ridiculous comment from Holder.
Bottom line, if a bookmaker advertises a price then they should be prepared to lay that price TO A DECENT LIABILITY to all. If not, then don’t price the race up…..simples!
Bottom line, if a bookmaker advertises a price then they should be prepared to lay that price TO A DECENT LIABILITY to all. If not, then don’t price the race up…..simples!
ask ramruna...he is a good bloke....he will post it for you
ask ramruna...he is a good bloke....he will post it for you
Was wondering which forumite that was a pic of for the article. 
Always find these articles an interesting read. Would like to know a bit more about how they manage in general, eg getting credit or a mortgage. Cannot be easy without a pay slip every month.
Wonder if this is based on exchanges, or some fantasy story about being pro using only bookies....
It is a job no school careers department will recommend. There are no degrees, apprenticeships or night classes centred on how to make a living from finding winners. Professional punters spend their days doing something few understand or envy. Yet what if you want to be like them? How can you punt like a professional?
Over the next three days a band of those who bet for a living will shine a light on some of their dos and don'ts, offering wisdom and advice based on years of experience. They will tell you about methods that work for them and those they consider overrated. They will also provide insight not just on how to unearth winners but also how to deal with backing loser after loser.
First, though, let's start at the very beginning.
"Punting professionally is completely different to how people perceive it," says Mark Holder, someone who knows what it's actually like.
"It's a bit like going somewhere wonderful on holiday. When you're lying on a sunbed, being brought drinks and eating in nice restaurants, you can easily think you want to live there. The realisation of living in that place can be very different to being on holiday. People are similarly mistaken about being a professional punter. This job is totally unglamorous. It's about working alone and grafting for many hours."
Steve Lewis Hamilton: "I couldn't with hand on heart tell someone they could make it pay unless they were putting in the hours"
Steve Lewis Hamilton: "I couldn't with hand on heart tell someone they could make it pay unless they were putting in the hours"
Ask anyone who does what Holder does and they will echo his analysis.
"I couldn't with hand on heart tell someone they could make it pay unless they were putting in the hours," stresses Steve Lewis Hamilton, who has been betting full-time since 1989, prior to which he worked at Smithfield meat market.
"I say that simply because unless you do put in the hours you won't find the opportunities. If you're backing horses at the right price, you're not going to lose too much money, and if you're enjoying it, that's great. However, if you want to do well, you need to be disciplined enough to bet only at the right time."
The right time for one will not be the right time for all – and just as there will be disagreement about which horses to back, our panel is split on the extent to which you should document your efforts.
The write approach?
Holder believes if you do not document what you are doing, you cannot know how you are doing.
"If you want to be serious, you need to have it all written down," he says. "Most people don't want to be reminded what their punting is costing them, but if you don't record your bets you can kid yourself. If you asked most people who lose, they would say they're breaking even."
Neil Channing, who has been betting all his adult life, agrees recording bets provides clarity – but he also thinks it can make your betting better.
Channing argues: "When you have a losing run you're always wondering if it's just variance or has your edge disappeared? That's why it's so important to record your results.
"I paid a guy to make some spreadsheets for me and now I can input my bets and get all the data broken down. The point of doing that is to improve. Knowing how much you've won or lost is almost irrelevant compared to that.
"The more stuff you record, the more things will stand out. When you lose, you question yourself. You want to know if you made a mistake or were simply unlucky. You won't know the answer unless you have all your results documented and can make objective judgement about whether or not you've been making errors."
Neil Channing: "The more stuff you record, the more things will stand out"
Neil Channing: "The more stuff you record, the more things will stand out"
Andy Smith, a prominent bookmaker, punter and now racehorse owner, agrees.
"You must write down your bets, even during your worst runs," says Smith.
"I put together a big graph that showed how I fared over 12 years. It became obvious October and November were consistently my two most successful months. I now hate going on holiday in October and November, but even if I do I still work because I don't want to miss any potential winning bets."
That's what they think. Others think differently.
Eddie Fremantle, a serious punter, broadcaster and journalist, uses trackers but feels he is not disadvantaged by opting against cataloguing everything. Andy Gibson, a professional punter and analyst, spends a lot of time writing but is not a fervent advocate for writing everything down.
"It might be a good idea to start out by recording everything but you could ultimately end up so anal that you bore the pants off yourself," says Gibson.
"I recorded my bets for years and tried to make sense of them, working out what they told me about where and how I was making money. The problem was the area where I was doing best would be my worst losing area the following year.
"There is so much randomness involved in betting. I approach it with the view that I start with a certain amount of money and end with a certain amount of money. That's my record."
Lewis Hamilton also feels information from your past may prove unhelpful to your future.
"The issue with logging everything is it can only ever give you historical data," he says. "I used to log what types of races I was betting in, the race distance, the ground conditions, everything. It turned out to be of no benefit to me.
"One year I might have been winning in novice hurdles but losing in handicap chases. That can so easily be turned around the following year. It could simply have been down to opportunities."
One point or two?
A pound to one person may be £100 to another. Nobody can tell anybody else how much money should be invested on a horse. However, if you have a certain amount of money to spend on betting, how should it be divided up?
"My staking often depends on how much I disagree with the market – which I suppose really all boils down to value," says Gibson. "To me, the most important aspect of the opinions we hold is in how they compare and contrast to the market response. How much I put on can often be determined by how wrong I think the market is.
"If I find a race with eight runners and I'm pretty certain six of those runners are massively unsuited to the day and I don't much like the favourite, I'm probably going to have as much as I can each-way on the 5-1 shot I do fancy. If I thought five of the runners against that 5-1 shot did have a chance, I may not back him at all, to small stakes, win only or maybe in a small multiple bet.
"Equally, if I found two 33-1 shots in an eight-runner race in which I thought the weakness in the market was in the second, third, fourth and fifth favourites, I would be very happy to have as much on those two 33-1 shots each-way as I would on any other bet."
To Gibson, price should not dictate whether a bet is big or small. Holder echoes that.
"I have never been one to simply lump on horses at short prices," he explains. "I wouldn't necessarily have £500 each-way on a 5-1 shot but then only £20 each-way on a 20-1 shot. If I felt the 20-1 shot was good value, my stake on that horse – providing I could get on – would be no different to my stake on the 5-1 shot. I don't stake according to the prices. The winners at the big odds are the ones that make the difference.
"For me it's all about betting horses I think are overpriced who I think will be competitive. I'm trying to find horses who I think will run slightly better than their odds or who have been underestimated by the public."
Holder adds: "It's great if I have a winner at 33-1 or 50-1 but no individual winner or loser is ever going to make a difference to me. Similarly, never do anything today that is going to affect how you feel about tomorrow. If you feel you'll be out of the game with three more losers you're not going to make good decisions. No punting decision I have ever made is based on me thinking what would happen if the horse wins or loses. I make a decision simply based on how I see a race."
When setting out his stall, Fremantle also adheres to the core punting truth of how a horse's price relates to its actual chance. He is also far from averse to backing multiple horses in any one race.
"Sometimes I'll only bet one horse in a race but I generally tend to have a more scattergun approach," he says.
"If you're only betting one horse in a race and upping your stakes to keep turnover high, you put yourself under much more pressure. If you're betting in five or six races a day and lose for two days, you've lost for two days, but if you're only backing one horse a week and lose on 12 consecutive bets, you've lost for three months. I know that would affect me psychologically. The days when I don't back at least one winner are pretty rare and I feel that keeps the pressure off."
Fremantle adds: "I try to have approximately the same amount on in each race but there are, of course, occasions when I fancy one horse strongly. I try to stake more on that horse but it also depends on the price. I wouldn't up my stakes unless I thought the horse's price represented much better value than his actual chance of winning. If a horse I think should be 3-1 is 10-1 I'll have a bigger bet, whereas if I think a 11-10 shot should be evens I'll have only a regular bet.
"In some races I'm not dictated to by any particularly strong opinion I might have. My judgement is reflected in the prices I feel horses should be. If I see they're betting to 95 per cent and I believe my grading of the horses' prices is roughly correct, I think I should be getting involved. In the long run it's hard to lose if you're consistently betting in 95 per cent markets."
Like Fremantle, Channing's approach is to find multiple worthwhile opportunities.
He says: "I now have way more bets than was once the case. When I first started I thought pro punters had about one bet a fortnight. I don't know any pro punters who are like that now."
Staying alive
Restrictions and account closures have become a common complaint among those who bet on racing. You don't need to win big or even bet big to be informed by a bookmaker of 'a trading decision'. It happens regularly to those who punt for a hobby. For professionals it is par for the course.
"I don't like it when bookmakers say they only restrict absolute arbers because it just isn't true – most of my accounts were killed years ago," says Channing.
"I made a conscious decision seven or eight years ago to concentrate on Saturdays and big racedays. I largely bet only on the ITV races and after 11am. What sort of bookmaker should be turning away that sort of business?"
Regrettably, bookmakers do turn away that sort of business. Can the professionals offer any advice as to how to keep accounts open?
"A bad each-way bet is definitely a no-no and price tracking is poor etiquette as well," argues Channing. "I wouldn't advise anyone to wait for a price to crash on an odds comparison site and then dive in to bet with the last firm to update the odds."
Offering his perspective, Holder says: "You don't need to do things that wind up bookmakers. They might make you feel clever but your accounts won't last long.
"I would also say, in general terms, people are wrong to believe that unless they bet early they can't win. They think the market is so precise when a race begins that it's impossible to win. That's nonsense. The market is probably wrong around 20 per cent of the time."
Eddie Fremantle: "You are better off setting your targets fairly conservatively because that way you should get the bets on you want to get on"
Eddie Fremantle: "You are better off setting your targets fairly conservatively because that way you should get the bets on you want to get on"
Edward Whitaker (racingpost.com/photos)
Fremantle still finds a small number of layers who take 'a decent bet' but also knows all about being knocked back. Moreover, while many professional punters employ other people to operate accounts on their behalf, Fremantle has always wanted to be entirely upfront with bookmakers.
"I have learned not to be too greedy," he says. "You are better off setting your targets fairly conservatively because that way you should get the bets on that you want to get on. I once lost an account after I just happened to hit on a series of biggish-priced horses that were either put up later by a leading tipster or evolved into gambles. That all happened by coincidence.
"In an ideal world I would like to see no early prices because they allow bookmakers to be lazy. The odds compilation is really done by the early markets. There is no longer any point trying to back a horse the night before unless you have an enormous network with hundreds of accounts, which I don't have."
And finally...
For those seeking to enjoy greater success at betting, Lewis Hamilton has a suggestion that goes right back to the principle embraced by all those who make profits out of finding winners and already highlighted in this piece – to punt properly, you need to understand value.
He says: "I would advise any punter to practise pricing up races – and they should do that without any outside information to hand. The simplest way is to start with contests that have three possible outcomes, so if you're a fan of football and rugby you could start there.
"I know it's a cliche, but value is everything. The issue people have is in discerning what represents value. It's a subjective thing. You can't find the answer in an algorithm or a book. Bookmakers do it better than anyone, so you have to put yourself in their boots. You have to take them on at their own game.
"If someone is betting for entertainment, if they're happy spending a tenner or £100, if that sort of money isn't going to break them and they're enjoying it, I have no issues with that person doing it however they want to do it. However, if you're betting to win, the principles are exactly the same, regardless of whether you're staking £2, £20 or £2,000."
Lewis Hamilton adds: "You can only bet when the situation presents itself, by which I mean when a horse's price is bigger than it should be. That is the principle of winning – and it has existed since people first started gambling. If you don't adhere to that principle I'm absolutely convinced in the long run you just cannot win."
Over the next three days a band of those who bet for a living will shine a light on some of their dos and don'ts, offering wisdom and advice based on years of experience. They will tell you about methods that work for them and those they consider overrated. They will also provide insight not just on how to unearth winners but also how to deal with backing loser after loser.
First, though, let's start at the very beginning.
"Punting professionally is completely different to how people perceive it," says Mark Holder, someone who knows what it's actually like.
"It's a bit like going somewhere wonderful on holiday. When you're lying on a sunbed, being brought drinks and eating in nice restaurants, you can easily think you want to live there. The realisation of living in that place can be very different to being on holiday. People are similarly mistaken about being a professional punter. This job is totally unglamorous. It's about working alone and grafting for many hours."
Steve Lewis Hamilton: "I couldn't with hand on heart tell someone they could make it pay unless they were putting in the hours"
Steve Lewis Hamilton: "I couldn't with hand on heart tell someone they could make it pay unless they were putting in the hours"
Ask anyone who does what Holder does and they will echo his analysis.
"I couldn't with hand on heart tell someone they could make it pay unless they were putting in the hours," stresses Steve Lewis Hamilton, who has been betting full-time since 1989, prior to which he worked at Smithfield meat market.
"I say that simply because unless you do put in the hours you won't find the opportunities. If you're backing horses at the right price, you're not going to lose too much money, and if you're enjoying it, that's great. However, if you want to do well, you need to be disciplined enough to bet only at the right time."
The right time for one will not be the right time for all – and just as there will be disagreement about which horses to back, our panel is split on the extent to which you should document your efforts.
The write approach?
Holder believes if you do not document what you are doing, you cannot know how you are doing.
"If you want to be serious, you need to have it all written down," he says. "Most people don't want to be reminded what their punting is costing them, but if you don't record your bets you can kid yourself. If you asked most people who lose, they would say they're breaking even."
Neil Channing, who has been betting all his adult life, agrees recording bets provides clarity – but he also thinks it can make your betting better.
Channing argues: "When you have a losing run you're always wondering if it's just variance or has your edge disappeared? That's why it's so important to record your results.
"I paid a guy to make some spreadsheets for me and now I can input my bets and get all the data broken down. The point of doing that is to improve. Knowing how much you've won or lost is almost irrelevant compared to that.
"The more stuff you record, the more things will stand out. When you lose, you question yourself. You want to know if you made a mistake or were simply unlucky. You won't know the answer unless you have all your results documented and can make objective judgement about whether or not you've been making errors."
Neil Channing: "The more stuff you record, the more things will stand out"
Neil Channing: "The more stuff you record, the more things will stand out"
Andy Smith, a prominent bookmaker, punter and now racehorse owner, agrees.
"You must write down your bets, even during your worst runs," says Smith.
"I put together a big graph that showed how I fared over 12 years. It became obvious October and November were consistently my two most successful months. I now hate going on holiday in October and November, but even if I do I still work because I don't want to miss any potential winning bets."
That's what they think. Others think differently.
Eddie Fremantle, a serious punter, broadcaster and journalist, uses trackers but feels he is not disadvantaged by opting against cataloguing everything. Andy Gibson, a professional punter and analyst, spends a lot of time writing but is not a fervent advocate for writing everything down.
"It might be a good idea to start out by recording everything but you could ultimately end up so anal that you bore the pants off yourself," says Gibson.
"I recorded my bets for years and tried to make sense of them, working out what they told me about where and how I was making money. The problem was the area where I was doing best would be my worst losing area the following year.
"There is so much randomness involved in betting. I approach it with the view that I start with a certain amount of money and end with a certain amount of money. That's my record."
Lewis Hamilton also feels information from your past may prove unhelpful to your future.
"The issue with logging everything is it can only ever give you historical data," he says. "I used to log what types of races I was betting in, the race distance, the ground conditions, everything. It turned out to be of no benefit to me.
"One year I might have been winning in novice hurdles but losing in handicap chases. That can so easily be turned around the following year. It could simply have been down to opportunities."
One point or two?
A pound to one person may be £100 to another. Nobody can tell anybody else how much money should be invested on a horse. However, if you have a certain amount of money to spend on betting, how should it be divided up?
"My staking often depends on how much I disagree with the market – which I suppose really all boils down to value," says Gibson. "To me, the most important aspect of the opinions we hold is in how they compare and contrast to the market response. How much I put on can often be determined by how wrong I think the market is.
"If I find a race with eight runners and I'm pretty certain six of those runners are massively unsuited to the day and I don't much like the favourite, I'm probably going to have as much as I can each-way on the 5-1 shot I do fancy. If I thought five of the runners against that 5-1 shot did have a chance, I may not back him at all, to small stakes, win only or maybe in a small multiple bet.
"Equally, if I found two 33-1 shots in an eight-runner race in which I thought the weakness in the market was in the second, third, fourth and fifth favourites, I would be very happy to have as much on those two 33-1 shots each-way as I would on any other bet."
To Gibson, price should not dictate whether a bet is big or small. Holder echoes that.
"I have never been one to simply lump on horses at short prices," he explains. "I wouldn't necessarily have £500 each-way on a 5-1 shot but then only £20 each-way on a 20-1 shot. If I felt the 20-1 shot was good value, my stake on that horse – providing I could get on – would be no different to my stake on the 5-1 shot. I don't stake according to the prices. The winners at the big odds are the ones that make the difference.
"For me it's all about betting horses I think are overpriced who I think will be competitive. I'm trying to find horses who I think will run slightly better than their odds or who have been underestimated by the public."
Holder adds: "It's great if I have a winner at 33-1 or 50-1 but no individual winner or loser is ever going to make a difference to me. Similarly, never do anything today that is going to affect how you feel about tomorrow. If you feel you'll be out of the game with three more losers you're not going to make good decisions. No punting decision I have ever made is based on me thinking what would happen if the horse wins or loses. I make a decision simply based on how I see a race."
When setting out his stall, Fremantle also adheres to the core punting truth of how a horse's price relates to its actual chance. He is also far from averse to backing multiple horses in any one race.
"Sometimes I'll only bet one horse in a race but I generally tend to have a more scattergun approach," he says.
"If you're only betting one horse in a race and upping your stakes to keep turnover high, you put yourself under much more pressure. If you're betting in five or six races a day and lose for two days, you've lost for two days, but if you're only backing one horse a week and lose on 12 consecutive bets, you've lost for three months. I know that would affect me psychologically. The days when I don't back at least one winner are pretty rare and I feel that keeps the pressure off."
Fremantle adds: "I try to have approximately the same amount on in each race but there are, of course, occasions when I fancy one horse strongly. I try to stake more on that horse but it also depends on the price. I wouldn't up my stakes unless I thought the horse's price represented much better value than his actual chance of winning. If a horse I think should be 3-1 is 10-1 I'll have a bigger bet, whereas if I think a 11-10 shot should be evens I'll have only a regular bet.
"In some races I'm not dictated to by any particularly strong opinion I might have. My judgement is reflected in the prices I feel horses should be. If I see they're betting to 95 per cent and I believe my grading of the horses' prices is roughly correct, I think I should be getting involved. In the long run it's hard to lose if you're consistently betting in 95 per cent markets."
Like Fremantle, Channing's approach is to find multiple worthwhile opportunities.
He says: "I now have way more bets than was once the case. When I first started I thought pro punters had about one bet a fortnight. I don't know any pro punters who are like that now."
Staying alive
Restrictions and account closures have become a common complaint among those who bet on racing. You don't need to win big or even bet big to be informed by a bookmaker of 'a trading decision'. It happens regularly to those who punt for a hobby. For professionals it is par for the course.
"I don't like it when bookmakers say they only restrict absolute arbers because it just isn't true – most of my accounts were killed years ago," says Channing.
"I made a conscious decision seven or eight years ago to concentrate on Saturdays and big racedays. I largely bet only on the ITV races and after 11am. What sort of bookmaker should be turning away that sort of business?"
Regrettably, bookmakers do turn away that sort of business. Can the professionals offer any advice as to how to keep accounts open?
"A bad each-way bet is definitely a no-no and price tracking is poor etiquette as well," argues Channing. "I wouldn't advise anyone to wait for a price to crash on an odds comparison site and then dive in to bet with the last firm to update the odds."
Offering his perspective, Holder says: "You don't need to do things that wind up bookmakers. They might make you feel clever but your accounts won't last long.
"I would also say, in general terms, people are wrong to believe that unless they bet early they can't win. They think the market is so precise when a race begins that it's impossible to win. That's nonsense. The market is probably wrong around 20 per cent of the time."
Eddie Fremantle: "You are better off setting your targets fairly conservatively because that way you should get the bets on you want to get on"
Eddie Fremantle: "You are better off setting your targets fairly conservatively because that way you should get the bets on you want to get on"
Edward Whitaker (racingpost.com/photos)
Fremantle still finds a small number of layers who take 'a decent bet' but also knows all about being knocked back. Moreover, while many professional punters employ other people to operate accounts on their behalf, Fremantle has always wanted to be entirely upfront with bookmakers.
"I have learned not to be too greedy," he says. "You are better off setting your targets fairly conservatively because that way you should get the bets on that you want to get on. I once lost an account after I just happened to hit on a series of biggish-priced horses that were either put up later by a leading tipster or evolved into gambles. That all happened by coincidence.
"In an ideal world I would like to see no early prices because they allow bookmakers to be lazy. The odds compilation is really done by the early markets. There is no longer any point trying to back a horse the night before unless you have an enormous network with hundreds of accounts, which I don't have."
And finally...
For those seeking to enjoy greater success at betting, Lewis Hamilton has a suggestion that goes right back to the principle embraced by all those who make profits out of finding winners and already highlighted in this piece – to punt properly, you need to understand value.
He says: "I would advise any punter to practise pricing up races – and they should do that without any outside information to hand. The simplest way is to start with contests that have three possible outcomes, so if you're a fan of football and rugby you could start there.
"I know it's a cliche, but value is everything. The issue people have is in discerning what represents value. It's a subjective thing. You can't find the answer in an algorithm or a book. Bookmakers do it better than anyone, so you have to put yourself in their boots. You have to take them on at their own game.
"If someone is betting for entertainment, if they're happy spending a tenner or £100, if that sort of money isn't going to break them and they're enjoying it, I have no issues with that person doing it however they want to do it. However, if you're betting to win, the principles are exactly the same, regardless of whether you're staking £2, £20 or £2,000."
Lewis Hamilton adds: "You can only bet when the situation presents itself, by which I mean when a horse's price is bigger than it should be. That is the principle of winning – and it has existed since people first started gambling. If you don't adhere to that principle I'm absolutely convinced in the long run you just cannot win."
Thanks very much for posting.
I don't think there is anything earth shattering in that piece.
The interesting bit would have been how they manage to survive in a world of restrictions, but there is next to nothing in terms of answers. There is no explanation whatsoever of that hook about winding up bookmakers.
I don't think there is anything earth shattering in that piece.
The interesting bit would have been how they manage to survive in a world of restrictions, but there is next to nothing in terms of answers. There is no explanation whatsoever of that hook about winding up bookmakers.
The only time i ever made a profit over 12 months was with genuine inside info.
A total waste of 2 pages from the rancid. Old news. We all know the "bookies" won't take a 10er from a shrewdie. So how are these "pros" getting on?
Reading that, you wouldn't think that Betting Exchanges had been invented.
To be fair, most of the men quoted were in their pomp, if they had one, in the days before betting exchanges were invented. (I know I was!)
Morning Jimnast,my thoughts exactly,plenty of free advertising there for the usual suspects.
Thanks for posting.
As I suspected basically no mention of exchanges. A little like it was written in 1989. How can a modern article on pro-punting ignore betting exchanges??
Still, some interesting points at times, but nothing really of substance in that content. Reads a little like an ebook that tries to sell 'become a pro-punter', lol.
As I suspected basically no mention of exchanges. A little like it was written in 1989. How can a modern article on pro-punting ignore betting exchanges??
Still, some interesting points at times, but nothing really of substance in that content. Reads a little like an ebook that tries to sell 'become a pro-punter', lol.
It is part one of a three-parter. Whether there will be anything in it about exchanges or in any way different from the Post's previous but still recent series on pro-punters has yet to be seen.
Yep, would be interesting to see if later installments move on to exchanges.
I read part 2 this morning,I don't remember anything about exchanges in it,I dont know how to copy it or I would.
gambling is simple maths...
you will only win long term with an edge/value.
someone offers you 100 coin tosses at 11/10 = max steaks.
someone offers you 100 coin tosses 10/11 = no bet.
ladcrooks offers the betting shop degenerates a coin toss after the racing finishes @8/11 your pick..most will participate.
you will only win long term with an edge/value.
someone offers you 100 coin tosses at 11/10 = max steaks.
someone offers you 100 coin tosses 10/11 = no bet.
ladcrooks offers the betting shop degenerates a coin toss after the racing finishes @8/11 your pick..most will participate.
please can someone post today's ....f***ed ....owing money
The online firms have very little imagination in the first at Dundalk tonight I looked at 6 firms prices on one particular horse now I think most would agree 11/1 is a pretty unusual price yet 6 out of 6 go 11/1 not 10/1 not 12/1 all 11/1 
bookies are all conglomerates now, thats why the variation in prices are non existent, you have to hit the umbrella of companies all on the same day, gambling is simple maths, work out how much you need to win
Judging by some of the comments, many people were expecting the article to contain step by step infallible instructions on how to be a professional winning gambler. 
There is no instruction manual.
There is no instruction manual.
That's partly fair escapee - though doesn't explain ignoring exchanges in their discussions.
Rico-Dangleflaps • March 23, 2022 9:36 AM GMT
gambling is simple maths...
you will only win long term with an edge/value.
someone offers you 100 coin tosses at 11/10 = max steaks.
In layman's terms yes, but there will be an optimal % of your bankroll that you should bet, in order to maximise profit and minimise the risk of going broke.
which is why this comment from the article is suspect:
Holder echoes that.
"I have never been one to simply lump on horses at short prices," he explains. "I wouldn't necessarily have £500 each-way on a 5-1 shot but then only £20 each-way on a 20-1 shot. [b]If I felt the 20-1 shot was good value, my stake on that horse – providing I could get on – would be no different to my stake on the 5-1 shot. I don't stake according to the prices. The winners at the big odds are the ones that make the difference.
[/b]
gambling is simple maths...
you will only win long term with an edge/value.
someone offers you 100 coin tosses at 11/10 = max steaks.
In layman's terms yes, but there will be an optimal % of your bankroll that you should bet, in order to maximise profit and minimise the risk of going broke.
which is why this comment from the article is suspect:
Holder echoes that.
"I have never been one to simply lump on horses at short prices," he explains. "I wouldn't necessarily have £500 each-way on a 5-1 shot but then only £20 each-way on a 20-1 shot. [b]If I felt the 20-1 shot was good value, my stake on that horse – providing I could get on – would be no different to my stake on the 5-1 shot. I don't stake according to the prices. The winners at the big odds are the ones that make the difference.
[/b]
Most of these pro's aren't worried about going broke. That's why they are pro's they get big money on horses at decent odds. The average punter would only put thousands on a "cert "
title is a misnomer. again today its not telling you how to be a pro. all its says is dont chase your losses and you will back plenty of losers.
hardly relevatory. and seen many times before, and with the same faces. just a spacefiller.
hardly relevatory. and seen many times before, and with the same faces. just a spacefiller.
Agree with the above. It is essentially filler.
Nobody would have been expecting step by step, but there is a big difference between step by step, and next to nothing.
Nobody would have been expecting step by step, but there is a big difference between step by step, and next to nothing.
The racing post has been churning out tired old articles like this for 30 odd years and this one could easily have been written 30 years ago. The same old "professionals", all of whom have other sources of income and all of whom have historically been advertisers of "services" in the Racing Post.
I think the term they use for this kind of crud in the USA is an infomercial i.e. it's a commercial/advertisement dressed up as an informative article.
I think the term they use for this kind of crud in the USA is an infomercial i.e. it's a commercial/advertisement dressed up as an informative article.
rather than a filler id imagine for 99% of punters it's the dream ticket and they'll buy the paper or sign up online in the hope of finding the golden goose, it's actually a revenue piece dangling wealth and riches within, mugs welcome
I disagree that there is "next to nothing" in the article above.
Ok, it's a piece of Journalism, with some sound bites from a few professionals. Once you
acknowledge that and the limitations its going to impose coz its not a text book, it's an
article, You can approach it accordingly and stop looking for instructions and start looking
for golden nuggets of wisdom.
An instruction manual would contain a lesson "You gotta find a way to learn from your mistakes".
The article alludes to this in it's sound bites about the importance of record keeping, it even mentions what happens if you get to anal about it, you get distracted from the main
goal of learning from your mistakes.
etc etc.
as for the lack of mentioning exchanges, well I think a professional gamblers have skills that
can be applied to many playing fields, not just exchanges, not just horse racing.
Professional gambling is fundamentally pitting your wits against other peoples wits for money.
if you want to be a professional, you need to get on board with that and start acting accordingly.
They are not going to spell out such realities in an RP article.
Blah blah blah, etc. etc.
Ok, it's a piece of Journalism, with some sound bites from a few professionals. Once you
acknowledge that and the limitations its going to impose coz its not a text book, it's an
article, You can approach it accordingly and stop looking for instructions and start looking
for golden nuggets of wisdom.
An instruction manual would contain a lesson "You gotta find a way to learn from your mistakes".
The article alludes to this in it's sound bites about the importance of record keeping, it even mentions what happens if you get to anal about it, you get distracted from the main
goal of learning from your mistakes.
etc etc.
as for the lack of mentioning exchanges, well I think a professional gamblers have skills that
can be applied to many playing fields, not just exchanges, not just horse racing.
Professional gambling is fundamentally pitting your wits against other peoples wits for money.
if you want to be a professional, you need to get on board with that and start acting accordingly.
They are not going to spell out such realities in an RP article.
Blah blah blah, etc. etc.
I can see your point escapee - it's almost more of a mindset type of piece (at least what I've seen) rather than a guidance manual (which of course doesn't exist in reality).
Tony McCoy rode more winners than any jump jockey in British racing history. As he has regularly pointed out himself, he also rode more losers. Perhaps more than any sportspeople, jockeys must become accustomed to repeated failure. It is the same for those who bet on those jockeys and the horses they ride – even the professionals.
As a punter, you win some, you lose some. However, for most punters, betting is a hobby. They will set off for a day at the races or prepare for the Saturday ITV action knowing they are prepared to invest a certain amount of money with bookmakers. They will equally know that if the results go badly they can afford to lose.
For professional punters, the picture is completely different. Theirs is a precarious occupation, devoid of future certainty. A decent win might allow the rest of us a little treat. The majority of those who bet for a living need to win in order to pay the bills. It is through betting that professional punters pay their own salaries. Winning really matters.
How, then, do they deal with those periods when victories are hard to find? Moreover, what can their approach teach the rest of us about dealing with losing runs?
The mental demands of being a serious punter are significant. A job that brings with it absolutely no security is a terrifying thought, yet some willingly take it on. An examination of what goes on inside their heads proves to be as illuminating as one might imagine.
Mark Holder: "I don't believe there's an easy way of doing this job"
Mark Holder: "I don't believe there's an easy way of doing this job"
Tom Sandberg/PPAUK
"Success ebbs and flows because you get peaks and troughs," says full-time jumps punter Mark Holder. "There are times when I feel I'm cleverer than everybody, that I know what's going to happen and that nobody can touch me. There are also times when I feel everybody is cleverer than me and that I don't have a clue what's going to happen. You really do get periods like that.
"In the past, but thankfully not so much now, when I've hit a peak I've felt I had the game nailed and didn't need to spend 12 hours working every day. I've then eased back and gone through a losing run. The danger is you forget you went through that losing run because you hadn't been working hard enough. That's the reality. I don't believe there's an easy way of doing this job."
Eddie Fremantle, one of the diminished band of serious punters who still works regularly from racecourses, is in no doubt that betting to earn a wage can be stressful.
"The mental aspect is probably the single thing most punters would struggle to overcome – and I struggle to overcome it all the time," says Fremantle.
"If I'm having a losing run it still affects me mentally. A winning run gives me a lot of confidence but a losing run tends to make me look at whether I'm doing things wrong. At those times I have to stress to myself that this is something I've done for so many years."
Neil Channing has to do the same.
"It's quite normal for me to go six, seven or eight races without a winner," he says. "In fact, across Saturdays it might be fairly standard for me to have 15 losers on the spin. That stings a bit."
Dealing with defeat
Steve Lewis Hamilton did not have a stash of money with which to start a pro punting career that has now lasted for more than three decades. He needed to find money to get going and took the unusual step of securing a bank loan – although, in the bank's defence, its employees thought he was using the cash to buy a kitchen.
The kitchen may have taken longer than the bank expected to get built. The money was required to fund winning bets. Over the years there have been plenty of losing ones as well.
"The fundamental thing you have to accept is that if you're going to bet, you're going to bet losers," says Lewis Hamilton.
"In a perfect world, you need to be confident a losing run isn't going to cause you or your family any serious financial harm. The way to do that in practical terms is by having a bank of money you put to one side and use purely for gambling. You then don't go into other accounts to finance gambling. As I say, though, that's in a perfect world – I'm not sure too many people live in one.
"The truth is that if you're relying totally on punting for your income, it's a stressful place to be. Thankfully, I set up a racing service that gave me an added income, but the two things are interlinked – if I'm struggling with my punting it follows that a month or two later I'll start to lose clients."
Learning how to deal with backing losers is a fundamental part of betting, says Steve Lewis Hamilton
Learning how to deal with backing losers is a fundamental part of betting, says Steve Lewis Hamilton
Dan Mullan (Getty Images)
Casting his mind back to one particularly bleak time, Lewis Hamilton says: "The worst losing run I had goes back 20 years. I was on the West Country circuit and staying somewhere in Salisbury having travelled on from a jumps meeting. I remember being in the hotel and thinking, 'I'm f*****.' I owed money that I had to pay back the following day, and although I had enough cash to do that, I was in a really bad way. I didn't know how to deal with the situation and couldn't work out what my next move should be.
"I thought I had been doing things right but I think now I was probably a bit naive. There were things I probably still didn't understand. I got tucked up with one particular horse who I got tempted into backing again and again. Since then there have been other times that were really tough, but I now see that's just part of the job."
Lewis Hamilton has also found a way of approaching the tough times that gets him to the other side.
"As I rely totally on my own ratings, work and evaluation, if my betting goes wrong I only have myself to blame," he says. "When I hit a losing run I need to have enough confidence in what I do and how I operate to know I'm still doing things correctly.
"At the end of a day I go on a walk and run it all through my head. I check with myself that I did everything correctly – and if I did, I simply have to accept I didn't win. You have to remember you're only betting on a horse's chance of winning. It's all about chance. Providing I'm doing the right thing and I'm backing horses at the right odds, a losing run doesn't have a massive effect on me.
"You really do have to treat losing and winning in the same way. I also have to recognise those occasions when I've backed a winner who shouldn't really have won. If I have a lucky winner it will have as big a mental impact on me as backing a loser who should have won. Yes, all of a sudden my account might have a bit more money in it, but I'll equally know I've been dead fortunate."
'Don't wind up bookmakers – you might feel clever but your accounts won't last'
Having the same mental response to both good and bad days is also central to the approach taken by another jumps backer, Andy Gibson.
"I only bet for five or six months a year, so if I have a bad three or four weeks my losing run can be as long as seven months," says Gibson.
"Like most people, I can't get bets on myself, so I have to rely on others. In that situation you're not only having to cope with a losing run, you're also trying to manage your feelings of concern for those other people.
"It has the potential to make you more careful, which is the worst possible outcome. I can remember times when I became more likely to back a 6-4 shot than a 6-1 shot because I was desperate for a winner. In that sort of mindset you just want a winner, any winner. The reality is the more you can make your reaction to winning and losing the same, the better."
Andy Gibson: "The reality is the more you can make your reaction to winning and losing the same, the better"
Andy Gibson: "The reality is the more you can make your reaction to winning and losing the same, the better"
Like Gibson, Holder is adamant a successful punter must be able to keep his or her head in a manner synonymous with Rudyard Kipling's most famous poem.
"The key to punting professionally can be summed up in one word – resilience," insists Holder. "You have to be someone who can take a load of knocks and keep getting up. I wouldn't say I was born with that sort of trait but through necessity I've needed to develop that resilience because I've had to feed several mouths and pay a mortgage.
"People who are unsuccessful tend to be the ones who give up too easily. They take an approach that doesn't work out in the short term and that causes them to stop. My belief is if you analyse a race and your analysis proves correct, regardless of whether you win or lose, that's all you should worry about. If that keeps happening you need to have the resilience to carry on through those losing runs because they always come to an end.
"I keep a yellow post-it note on my desk that has six words written on it – 'It will change . . . it always does.' When I'm having a bad run I look at the piece of paper because what it says is right. Over my 28 years doing the job I have been in real depths, thinking I'm not very good at it, but things do change."
Holder also points out punters do not always get the outcomes their efforts have merited. He explains: "Providing a race works out roughly how I expected, in the short term I don't get too bothered about getting it wrong. Over a long period of time you do realise that you can be very right and lose but also very wrong and win.
"As an example, last October I had a losing month but at the end of that month I felt I had got so much right and couldn't believe I had lost. In November I finished up level but I had got so much wrong that I couldn't believe I hadn't lost."
How to regain lost ground
When you fall off the horse, should you get back on immediately or wait until you feel less shaken? Or to put it another way, how should punters go about clawing back money scooped up by bookmakers?
"Chasing losses is the worst thing you can do as a punter," says Andy Smith, who knows both sides of the betting divide, being a bookmaker and backer.
"What is particularly dangerous is if you manage to chase your losses successfully once or twice and get out of trouble because you then see no harm in it. I can assure you that over the long run you will do your brains by chasing losses. What you need to remember is there is never a last race. It's far better to start again when you're feeling better. The one that turns and walks away lives to fight another day."
"The one that turns and walks away lives to fight another day," says Andy Smith
"The one that turns and walks away lives to fight another day," says Andy Smith
Edward Whitaker (racingpost.com/photos)
It's a neat phrase and one that mirrors something else in Smith's personal guidebook.
"As a punter, you know when you're in form and feeling good," he says, adding: "I'm adamant you must be in a good frame of mind to punt successfully."
Lewis Hamilton concurs and argues a punter enduring a tricky patch should consider taking a break. "Sometimes you do need to step back from it, whether that's having a day off or a week off," he argues. That makes sense, yet in the pursuit of level-headedness Gibson has gone even further.
"It's important to remain calm," says Gibson. "There was a time when due to things going wrong in my life I was torturing myself. I turned the same things around in my mind like a stuck record. I was in a terrible place until I went to see this Zen Buddhist group and heard someone talking about shifting pain from the heart to the head. She said we can do something about it. She was right, and I've now been a Zen Buddhist myself for more than 20 years.
"You can feel the weight of people's disappointment in your stomach when you're having a losing run and others are coming along with you. There is something about acknowledging that feeling but then not adding to it. Instead, I try to do what I've done for the last 30 years because it has brought me success. Unless something catastrophic has changed, that success will return."
Fremantle reasonably points out success can only return if you resume betting.
"I think to get back to where you were, you need to maintain your stakes, rather than draw back," he says. "Every single list of golden rules I've ever seen says you shouldn't chase your losses. I'm certainly not imploring people to chase their losses, but if you don't have a bet you will never get back those losses. You do have to keep betting because it's only by betting that you can win.
"It's inevitable that at some stage you're going to lose – and the only way to get those losses back is by betting. You just need to make sure you do that in a sensible way.
"You need to bet, but you shouldn't try to smash your way out of trouble by suddenly increasing your stakes. I've done that once or twice. I got away with it but it has frightened me."
As a punter, you win some, you lose some. However, for most punters, betting is a hobby. They will set off for a day at the races or prepare for the Saturday ITV action knowing they are prepared to invest a certain amount of money with bookmakers. They will equally know that if the results go badly they can afford to lose.
For professional punters, the picture is completely different. Theirs is a precarious occupation, devoid of future certainty. A decent win might allow the rest of us a little treat. The majority of those who bet for a living need to win in order to pay the bills. It is through betting that professional punters pay their own salaries. Winning really matters.
How, then, do they deal with those periods when victories are hard to find? Moreover, what can their approach teach the rest of us about dealing with losing runs?
The mental demands of being a serious punter are significant. A job that brings with it absolutely no security is a terrifying thought, yet some willingly take it on. An examination of what goes on inside their heads proves to be as illuminating as one might imagine.
Mark Holder: "I don't believe there's an easy way of doing this job"
Mark Holder: "I don't believe there's an easy way of doing this job"
Tom Sandberg/PPAUK
"Success ebbs and flows because you get peaks and troughs," says full-time jumps punter Mark Holder. "There are times when I feel I'm cleverer than everybody, that I know what's going to happen and that nobody can touch me. There are also times when I feel everybody is cleverer than me and that I don't have a clue what's going to happen. You really do get periods like that.
"In the past, but thankfully not so much now, when I've hit a peak I've felt I had the game nailed and didn't need to spend 12 hours working every day. I've then eased back and gone through a losing run. The danger is you forget you went through that losing run because you hadn't been working hard enough. That's the reality. I don't believe there's an easy way of doing this job."
Eddie Fremantle, one of the diminished band of serious punters who still works regularly from racecourses, is in no doubt that betting to earn a wage can be stressful.
"The mental aspect is probably the single thing most punters would struggle to overcome – and I struggle to overcome it all the time," says Fremantle.
"If I'm having a losing run it still affects me mentally. A winning run gives me a lot of confidence but a losing run tends to make me look at whether I'm doing things wrong. At those times I have to stress to myself that this is something I've done for so many years."
Neil Channing has to do the same.
"It's quite normal for me to go six, seven or eight races without a winner," he says. "In fact, across Saturdays it might be fairly standard for me to have 15 losers on the spin. That stings a bit."
Dealing with defeat
Steve Lewis Hamilton did not have a stash of money with which to start a pro punting career that has now lasted for more than three decades. He needed to find money to get going and took the unusual step of securing a bank loan – although, in the bank's defence, its employees thought he was using the cash to buy a kitchen.
The kitchen may have taken longer than the bank expected to get built. The money was required to fund winning bets. Over the years there have been plenty of losing ones as well.
"The fundamental thing you have to accept is that if you're going to bet, you're going to bet losers," says Lewis Hamilton.
"In a perfect world, you need to be confident a losing run isn't going to cause you or your family any serious financial harm. The way to do that in practical terms is by having a bank of money you put to one side and use purely for gambling. You then don't go into other accounts to finance gambling. As I say, though, that's in a perfect world – I'm not sure too many people live in one.
"The truth is that if you're relying totally on punting for your income, it's a stressful place to be. Thankfully, I set up a racing service that gave me an added income, but the two things are interlinked – if I'm struggling with my punting it follows that a month or two later I'll start to lose clients."
Learning how to deal with backing losers is a fundamental part of betting, says Steve Lewis Hamilton
Learning how to deal with backing losers is a fundamental part of betting, says Steve Lewis Hamilton
Dan Mullan (Getty Images)
Casting his mind back to one particularly bleak time, Lewis Hamilton says: "The worst losing run I had goes back 20 years. I was on the West Country circuit and staying somewhere in Salisbury having travelled on from a jumps meeting. I remember being in the hotel and thinking, 'I'm f*****.' I owed money that I had to pay back the following day, and although I had enough cash to do that, I was in a really bad way. I didn't know how to deal with the situation and couldn't work out what my next move should be.
"I thought I had been doing things right but I think now I was probably a bit naive. There were things I probably still didn't understand. I got tucked up with one particular horse who I got tempted into backing again and again. Since then there have been other times that were really tough, but I now see that's just part of the job."
Lewis Hamilton has also found a way of approaching the tough times that gets him to the other side.
"As I rely totally on my own ratings, work and evaluation, if my betting goes wrong I only have myself to blame," he says. "When I hit a losing run I need to have enough confidence in what I do and how I operate to know I'm still doing things correctly.
"At the end of a day I go on a walk and run it all through my head. I check with myself that I did everything correctly – and if I did, I simply have to accept I didn't win. You have to remember you're only betting on a horse's chance of winning. It's all about chance. Providing I'm doing the right thing and I'm backing horses at the right odds, a losing run doesn't have a massive effect on me.
"You really do have to treat losing and winning in the same way. I also have to recognise those occasions when I've backed a winner who shouldn't really have won. If I have a lucky winner it will have as big a mental impact on me as backing a loser who should have won. Yes, all of a sudden my account might have a bit more money in it, but I'll equally know I've been dead fortunate."
'Don't wind up bookmakers – you might feel clever but your accounts won't last'
Having the same mental response to both good and bad days is also central to the approach taken by another jumps backer, Andy Gibson.
"I only bet for five or six months a year, so if I have a bad three or four weeks my losing run can be as long as seven months," says Gibson.
"Like most people, I can't get bets on myself, so I have to rely on others. In that situation you're not only having to cope with a losing run, you're also trying to manage your feelings of concern for those other people.
"It has the potential to make you more careful, which is the worst possible outcome. I can remember times when I became more likely to back a 6-4 shot than a 6-1 shot because I was desperate for a winner. In that sort of mindset you just want a winner, any winner. The reality is the more you can make your reaction to winning and losing the same, the better."
Andy Gibson: "The reality is the more you can make your reaction to winning and losing the same, the better"
Andy Gibson: "The reality is the more you can make your reaction to winning and losing the same, the better"
Like Gibson, Holder is adamant a successful punter must be able to keep his or her head in a manner synonymous with Rudyard Kipling's most famous poem.
"The key to punting professionally can be summed up in one word – resilience," insists Holder. "You have to be someone who can take a load of knocks and keep getting up. I wouldn't say I was born with that sort of trait but through necessity I've needed to develop that resilience because I've had to feed several mouths and pay a mortgage.
"People who are unsuccessful tend to be the ones who give up too easily. They take an approach that doesn't work out in the short term and that causes them to stop. My belief is if you analyse a race and your analysis proves correct, regardless of whether you win or lose, that's all you should worry about. If that keeps happening you need to have the resilience to carry on through those losing runs because they always come to an end.
"I keep a yellow post-it note on my desk that has six words written on it – 'It will change . . . it always does.' When I'm having a bad run I look at the piece of paper because what it says is right. Over my 28 years doing the job I have been in real depths, thinking I'm not very good at it, but things do change."
Holder also points out punters do not always get the outcomes their efforts have merited. He explains: "Providing a race works out roughly how I expected, in the short term I don't get too bothered about getting it wrong. Over a long period of time you do realise that you can be very right and lose but also very wrong and win.
"As an example, last October I had a losing month but at the end of that month I felt I had got so much right and couldn't believe I had lost. In November I finished up level but I had got so much wrong that I couldn't believe I hadn't lost."
How to regain lost ground
When you fall off the horse, should you get back on immediately or wait until you feel less shaken? Or to put it another way, how should punters go about clawing back money scooped up by bookmakers?
"Chasing losses is the worst thing you can do as a punter," says Andy Smith, who knows both sides of the betting divide, being a bookmaker and backer.
"What is particularly dangerous is if you manage to chase your losses successfully once or twice and get out of trouble because you then see no harm in it. I can assure you that over the long run you will do your brains by chasing losses. What you need to remember is there is never a last race. It's far better to start again when you're feeling better. The one that turns and walks away lives to fight another day."
"The one that turns and walks away lives to fight another day," says Andy Smith
"The one that turns and walks away lives to fight another day," says Andy Smith
Edward Whitaker (racingpost.com/photos)
It's a neat phrase and one that mirrors something else in Smith's personal guidebook.
"As a punter, you know when you're in form and feeling good," he says, adding: "I'm adamant you must be in a good frame of mind to punt successfully."
Lewis Hamilton concurs and argues a punter enduring a tricky patch should consider taking a break. "Sometimes you do need to step back from it, whether that's having a day off or a week off," he argues. That makes sense, yet in the pursuit of level-headedness Gibson has gone even further.
"It's important to remain calm," says Gibson. "There was a time when due to things going wrong in my life I was torturing myself. I turned the same things around in my mind like a stuck record. I was in a terrible place until I went to see this Zen Buddhist group and heard someone talking about shifting pain from the heart to the head. She said we can do something about it. She was right, and I've now been a Zen Buddhist myself for more than 20 years.
"You can feel the weight of people's disappointment in your stomach when you're having a losing run and others are coming along with you. There is something about acknowledging that feeling but then not adding to it. Instead, I try to do what I've done for the last 30 years because it has brought me success. Unless something catastrophic has changed, that success will return."
Fremantle reasonably points out success can only return if you resume betting.
"I think to get back to where you were, you need to maintain your stakes, rather than draw back," he says. "Every single list of golden rules I've ever seen says you shouldn't chase your losses. I'm certainly not imploring people to chase their losses, but if you don't have a bet you will never get back those losses. You do have to keep betting because it's only by betting that you can win.
"It's inevitable that at some stage you're going to lose – and the only way to get those losses back is by betting. You just need to make sure you do that in a sensible way.
"You need to bet, but you shouldn't try to smash your way out of trouble by suddenly increasing your stakes. I've done that once or twice. I got away with it but it has frightened me."
ADD ONTO THE END OF THE ARTICLE:
GUYS PLEASE TRY TO REMEMBER...THE MORE MONITORS YOU HAVE THE BIGGER THE PRO YOU ARE
GUYS PLEASE TRY TO REMEMBER...THE MORE MONITORS YOU HAVE THE BIGGER THE PRO YOU ARE
Does make you wonder why you bother paying when they stick tripe up.
Cancelling would be cutting my nose off to spite my face however.
Cancelling would be cutting my nose off to spite my face however.
When I was younger I thought it would be a dream to be a pro punter. But as I got older I realised I wouldn't want that as a lifestyle - much prefer to enjoy punting as a sideline that can give me spare cash, while relying on a steady income.
"....Holder believes if you do not document what you are doing, you cannot know how you are doing...,,"
Spot on.
Spot on.
The record keeping part of the discussion was partly of interest I agree - some advocate to do so, some didn't.
Have to agree with others who say that you can't talk about betting and not mention the exchanges. Was this written in 1999?
Have to agree with others who say that you can't talk about betting and not mention the exchanges. Was this written in 1999?
maybe the question you are failing to ask is "Was this article edited by someone who's interest lies in promoting traditional book makers over exchanges?"
maybe the question you are failing to ask is "Was this article edited by someone who's interest lies in promoting traditional book makers over exchanges?"
Possibly so, escapee. In fact you are most probably right about that and I ought to have done.
A pity none of these pro punters post on here although I think Eddie Fremantle might have done in the early days.
Trying to perpetuate the outdated idea that all professional gamblers are a) betting on horses, b) studying form and c) backing horses pre-race with bookmakers. No doubt some people still do that successfully but all of the people that have contributed just sound like dinosaurs - and of course they also need to perpetuate these ideas - because most of them also run a tipping service!
Most pros these days probably don't even look at form (imo), they are betting with an edge on other sports, market making, trading, court-siding, using drones, fast pictures, in-play, etc. The people making money from horse racing that aren't insiders/cheats are also focussed on an edge via fast pictures, in-running, photos, stewards, etc.
People making a living from studying form and then betting pre-race with bookmakers must be in the tiny minority imo and are most likely people that have been left behind by failing to adapt to the better opportunities that the modern world has presented to them.
But of course it's the Racing Post, so the focus is on their narrow little world of horse racing and pretending that it's possible to bet successfully with bookmakers. I enjoyed the 1980's very much but it's 2022 now ffs.
They might as well have done a two page interview with gaze!
Most pros these days probably don't even look at form (imo), they are betting with an edge on other sports, market making, trading, court-siding, using drones, fast pictures, in-play, etc. The people making money from horse racing that aren't insiders/cheats are also focussed on an edge via fast pictures, in-running, photos, stewards, etc.
People making a living from studying form and then betting pre-race with bookmakers must be in the tiny minority imo and are most likely people that have been left behind by failing to adapt to the better opportunities that the modern world has presented to them.
But of course it's the Racing Post, so the focus is on their narrow little world of horse racing and pretending that it's possible to bet successfully with bookmakers. I enjoyed the 1980's very much but it's 2022 now ffs.
They might as well have done a two page interview with gaze!
The worst sort of losing run is one where it feels like the rest of the world is winning. It's a horrible feeling of inadequacy.That's when you go on tilt.
Conversely, if another pro is finding it hard going at the same time as you are, it's much easier to stay level-headed and accept it as one of those things, or even for the pair of you to identify where you might have been going wrong. The latter is a very hard thing to be level-headed about when you only have yourself to interrogate.
I remember back in May 2007 having a brief run where I did £1,800 in six days. Absolutely trivial in the big scheme of things. But that was just after I'd switched from going to the track to betting from home on here. I was simply stewing in my own juices. Wasn't getting anywhere, the market always knew, the game's over, etc.
Just before the last race of the evening, the phone rang (I still had enough hearing for phone calls in those days). It was Fremantle. He'd got home from Nottingham and had suffered a dreadful day. Wasn't getting anywhere, the market always knew, the game's over, etc.
Suddenly I felt a load lift from my shoulders. I was no longer a lonely, losing punter. I was one half of a cornered duo, ready to strike back.
"I've backed the Chris Down mare, Brown Fox, in the 8.30 at Wincanton," I said, full of unjustified confidence. "Ran okay over 2 miles last time, been crying out for 2 miles six. It's about 15s or 16s on Betfair and ... Hello? Hello?"
I don't know whether that was one of those occasions Fremantle mentions where he scares himself as to how he smashed his way out of a bad run, but the mare cantered home at 12/1 SP, and in the follow-up call you could hear a note of quietly hysterical relief. And I had my first good night's sleep for a couple of days. Back in the game! We were kings again!
Conversely, if another pro is finding it hard going at the same time as you are, it's much easier to stay level-headed and accept it as one of those things, or even for the pair of you to identify where you might have been going wrong. The latter is a very hard thing to be level-headed about when you only have yourself to interrogate.
I remember back in May 2007 having a brief run where I did £1,800 in six days. Absolutely trivial in the big scheme of things. But that was just after I'd switched from going to the track to betting from home on here. I was simply stewing in my own juices. Wasn't getting anywhere, the market always knew, the game's over, etc.
Just before the last race of the evening, the phone rang (I still had enough hearing for phone calls in those days). It was Fremantle. He'd got home from Nottingham and had suffered a dreadful day. Wasn't getting anywhere, the market always knew, the game's over, etc.
Suddenly I felt a load lift from my shoulders. I was no longer a lonely, losing punter. I was one half of a cornered duo, ready to strike back.
"I've backed the Chris Down mare, Brown Fox, in the 8.30 at Wincanton," I said, full of unjustified confidence. "Ran okay over 2 miles last time, been crying out for 2 miles six. It's about 15s or 16s on Betfair and ... Hello? Hello?"
I don't know whether that was one of those occasions Fremantle mentions where he scares himself as to how he smashed his way out of a bad run, but the mare cantered home at 12/1 SP, and in the follow-up call you could hear a note of quietly hysterical relief. And I had my first good night's sleep for a couple of days. Back in the game! We were kings again!
Good post by The Management.
That 2007 tale of mine was almost a last hurrah for me for the old days of going through all the form, pricing up every horse, trying to back winners.
I do still go through the form of certain types of races with a view to laying certain types of favourites pre-race, but that's it these days. The idea of sorting out a punt like Brown Fox, and then somehow getting enough on at the best prices to justify the workload and the losing runs ... no thanks.
That 2007 tale of mine was almost a last hurrah for me for the old days of going through all the form, pricing up every horse, trying to back winners.
I do still go through the form of certain types of races with a view to laying certain types of favourites pre-race, but that's it these days. The idea of sorting out a punt like Brown Fox, and then somehow getting enough on at the best prices to justify the workload and the losing runs ... no thanks.
I was shocked how much a newspaper copy of the RP now is!
fwiw I agree about not record keeping other than P+L.
2002 £44,664.00
2003 £117,056.00
2004 £121,636.00
2005 £119,209.00
2006 £112,861.00
2007 £128,740.00
2008 £146,909.00
2009 £116,331.00
2010 £137,236.00
2011 £72,920.00
2012 £103,719.00
2013 £47,065.00
2014 £59,378.00
2015 £48,305.00
2016 £51,014.00
2017 £23,442.00
2018 £74,511.00
2019 £40,810.00
2020 £26,403.00
2021 £55,319.00
2022 £7,572.69
2022 £1,655,100.69 Inflation Adjusted to 2021
£1,231,051.14 Non Inflation Adjusted
I've just quit for the 2nd time fwiw. First quit in 2016. Not horses since 2004
fwiw I agree about not record keeping other than P+L.
2002 £44,664.00
2003 £117,056.00
2004 £121,636.00
2005 £119,209.00
2006 £112,861.00
2007 £128,740.00
2008 £146,909.00
2009 £116,331.00
2010 £137,236.00
2011 £72,920.00
2012 £103,719.00
2013 £47,065.00
2014 £59,378.00
2015 £48,305.00
2016 £51,014.00
2017 £23,442.00
2018 £74,511.00
2019 £40,810.00
2020 £26,403.00
2021 £55,319.00
2022 £7,572.69
2022 £1,655,100.69 Inflation Adjusted to 2021
£1,231,051.14 Non Inflation Adjusted
I've just quit for the 2nd time fwiw. First quit in 2016. Not horses since 2004
I would question how these blokes cope with betting on the Betfair exchange the way they do given the sequential nature of the PC.
This was the 2016 Olympics (athletics and summer and winter games, commonwealth games are my only real love). It's the only bet records I have. I won as much in the 2012 Olympics as I did in the following 12 months. The same applies to 2016 below but on a lesser scale. It's the main reason why the even years are better than the odd. 2021 being the equivalent of 2020
Athletics
GB Womens 4by4 relay top 3 £1,400.00
W 400m relay trade £4.68
Laura Muir 1500m top 3 -£68.87
Jennifer Simpson 1500m top 3 £1,552.50
Simpson/Rowbury h2h £62.00
Jam Womens 4by4 relay/Laura Muir place double -£50.00
GB Womens 4by4 relay/Laura Muir place double -£50.00
Laura Ikauniece Heptathlon top 3 -£100.00
Nafissatou Thiam win £63.02
Ikauniece/Vetter Heptathlon h2h £84.75
Sara Peterson 400m h win -£77.50
top 3 £284.33
spread £140.00
Mens 200m trade £6.41
Lemaitre/Alonso Mens 200m h2h £62.00
Martina/Guliyev Mens 200m h2h £85.68
Andrew Pozzi 110m h top 3 -£140.00
Damian Warner Decathlon top 3 £9.57
Haron Koech 400m h win -£10.00
top 3 -£17.00
Mens 400m H trade £3.95
Japan 100m Relay M top 3 £425.00
Canada 100m Relay M top 3 £315.00
China 100m Relay M top 3 -£40.22
Japan/GB 100m M relay h2h £83.25
China/TTO 100m M relay h2h £84.00
GB/TTO 100m W relay h2h £164.80
Ronald Kwemoi 1500m trade £5.94
Blenkinship/Grice 1500M h2h £80.00
Matt Centrowitz 1500m top 3 £106.13
win £346.91
spread £2,070.00
Centrowitz/Willis 1500m h2h £159.50
GB under 3.5 athletic golds win £99.50
Mens 100m trade £164.81
De Grasse 100m top 3 £125.00
De Grasse 100m w/o Bolt + Gatlin win £150.00
De Grasse/Brommell 100m Semi h2h £42.94
De Grasse/Vicaut 100m h2h £7,669.48 £41.40
Cycling
Liam Phillips Mens BMX win -£190.00
Jason Kenny Sprint win £24.00
Caroline Buchanan Womens BMX win -£216.00 -£50.00
Swimming
Brazil 100m Free relay top 3 -£80.00
Marcelo Chierighini 100m free top 3 -£85.00
Xu Jiayu 200m Back top 3 -£300.00
Rylov/Xu 200m Back h2h £201.00
Jacob Pebley 200m Back spread -£20.00
Canada 200m Free Relay W top 3 £2,160.00
spread £200.00
Canada/Hungary 200m Free Relay h2h £336.00
Canada/Sweden 200m Free Relay h2h £98.50
Canada 100m Medley Relay W top 3 -£305.00
spread -£75.00
Canada/China 100m Medley Relay W h2h -£50.00
Joseph Schooling 200m Butt top 3 £80.00
Zhuhao Li/Czerniak h2h £84.75
USA 100m Medley Relay W win £220.50
spread £180.00
Anton Chupkov 200m Breast win -£85.00
top 3 £3,025.00
spread £180.00
Kosuke Hagino 200m IM spread £40.00
Hagino/Lochte 200m IM h2h £111.25
Horton/Jaeger 1500m Free h2h -£100.00
Jaeger/Detti 1500m Free h2h £80.00
Gabrielle Detti 400m Free win -£8.00
top 3 £217.00
Japan 200m Free Relay M spread £332.50
Neth/Bel 200m Free Relay h2h £42.50
USA 200m Free Relay M win £200.00
USA 200m Medley Relay M win £74.30
GB 100m Medley Relay M win £135.00
top 3 £30.00
China/Japan 100m Medley relay M h2h -£49.00
China/Brazil 100m Medley relay M h2h -£100.00
China/Russia 100m Medley Relay M h2h -£60.00
GB/France 100m Medley Relay M h2h £77.50
GB/Australia 100m Medley Relay M h2h £83.60
GB/AUS 200m Free Relay h2h £105.00
GB 200m Free Relay M top 3 £11.00
Boglarka Kapas 800m Free spread £140.00
top 3 £280.00
Jordan Wilmhovsky 10km Open Water win -£100.00
S Van Rouwendal 10k OW win £659.20
spread £440.00
Le Clos/Verschuren 200m Free h2h £36.00
Ashwood/VanRouwendal 400m Free h2h £117.00
Detti/Jaeger 400m Free h2h £115.00
Canada/Sweden 4*100 Free h2h £184.00
Netherlands/Italy 4*100 Free h2h £125.00
Canada 4*100 Free top 3 £53.00
Carlin/Boyle 800m Free h2h £110.00
Watanabe/Benson 200m Breast h2h £98.50
Katinka Hosszu 200m Back win -£50.00
Ryan Murphy 100m Back win £165.00
David Plummer 100m Back win -£50.00
Stravius/Dotto 100m Free h2h -£140.00
Miriea Belmonte 200m Butt spread £20.00
win £1,200.00
top 3 £200.00
Belmonte/Groves 200m Butt h2h £127.00
Natsumi Hoshi 200m Butt win -£60.00
Hoshi/Hentzke 200m Butt h2h £130.00
Yufei Zhang 200m Butt spread -£60.00
Yilin Zhou 200m Butt win -£4.00
top 3 -£20.00
Kyle Chambers 100m Free top 3 £1,950.00
O'Connor/Coutts 200m IM h2h £111.25
Double with DuJardin podium
Chupkov top 3 £13,123.35 £358.00
Taekwondo
Milad Biegi 80kg win -£195.00
top 2 -£40.00
Kimia Alizadeh 57kg win -£150.00
top 2 -£10.00
Biegi/Alizadeh win double -£5.00
top 2 double -£5.00
Rafael Castillo 80+ kg win -£95.00
top 2 -£30.00
top 3 -£545.00 -£15.00
Canoeing
Danuta Kozak Womens K1 £776.98
Hungary Womens K4 win £297.50
top 3 £1,086.98 £12.50
Rowing
New Zealand Mens Pair win £15.00
Croatia Double Sculls win £20.00
GB Mens Four win £42.50
NZ Croatia GB treble win £295.87
Martin Damir Single Sculls win £283.37 -£90.00
Medal Specials
USA Overall medals win £62.30
China Golds win -£37.50
Romania u2.5 golds win £150.00
USA o102.5 medals win £127.50
USA o104.5 medals win £100.00
USA o42.5 golds win £2.29
USA o40.5 golds win £200.00
Kenya o13.5 medals win -£220.00
Romania o0.5 medals win £109.00
Romania u6.5 medals win £80.00
Denmark u9.5 medals win -£80.00
Denmark u10.5 medals win -£120.00
Poland u12.5 medals win £81.00
Poland u13.5 medals win £100.00
Bulgaria u3.5 medals win £100.00
Japan u12.5 golds win £78.40
France o11.5 golds win -£72.93
France u12.5 golds win £75.90
Canada u18.5 medals win -£220.00
Australia u10.5 golds win £35.00
Australia u 12.5 golds win £76.20
Australia o43.5 medals win -£100.00
Australia o13.5 golds win -£96.00
Italy u24.5 medals win -£357.50
Italy u7.5 golds win -£357.50
Brazil u25.5 medals win £200.00
Spain o14.5 medals win £57.19 £203.33
Wrestling
Adeline Gray 75kg+ Free win -£150.00
Riza Kayaalp 130kg Greco win -£231.45
Hamid Soriyan 59kg Greco win -£55.00
win double -£446.45 -£10.00
Equestrian
German 1 top 3 £39.00
German 2 top 3 £39.00
German 3 top 3 £38.00 -£40.00
Boxing
Victor Levit 91kg top 4 £75.00
win -£25.00
top2 £87.50
Misha Aloyan 52kg top4 £227.50 £90.00
Gymnastics
Denis Ablayzin Mens Vault win -£20.00
top 3 £80.00
Kenzo Shirai Mens Vault win -£10.00
top 3 £110.00
Lauren Hernandez All Around top 3 -£25.00
Ally Raismann top 3 £60.00
W/o Biles win £206.25
Angelika Melnikova All Around top 3 -£13.00
Max Whitlock All Around win -£30.00
top 3 £1,100.00
Sam Mikulak All Around top 3 -£50.00
Simone Biles Vault win £184.00
Kenzo Shirai Floor win -£199.66
top 3 -£20.00
Simone Biles Floor win £18.18
Epke Zonderland High Bar win -£50.00
Daniel Lleyva High Bar win -£40.00
Fabian Hambuchen High Bar win £150.00
top 3 £52.00
Zanetti Rings top 3 £250.00
Ablyazin rings top 3 £100.00
Yang Liu rings win -£40.00
top 2 -£40.00
Whitlock/Ablyazin Floor h2h £138.00
Rosanagh McLennan TrampoLine win £800.00
Madison Kocain Uneven Bars win -£4.75
Kocain/Mustafina Uneven Bars h2h £2,556.02 -£150.00
Judo
Takato mens 60kg win -£97.50
Ebinuma mens 66kg win -£46.50
Ono mens 73kg win £484.00
Khalmurzaev mens 81kg win £119.00
Baker mens 90kg win £175.00
Beka Gviniashvili 100kg win -£25.00
top 4 -£60.00
Haga mens 100kg win -£95.00
Kelmendi womens 52kg win £219.00
Nakamura womens 52kg win -£25.00
Matsumoto womens 57kg win -£40.00
Monteiro womens 57kg win -£20.00
Agbegnenou womens 63kg win -£36.00
Doubles with GB Dressage podium
Kelmendi womens 52kg win £83.75
Nakamura womens 52kg win -£25.00
Matsumoto womens 57kg win -£25.00
Khalmurzaev mens 81kg win £236.00
Ebinuma mens 66kg win -£25.00
Doubles with Milad Biagi Taekwondo
Ebinuma mens 66kg win -£10.00
Ono mens 73kg win -£25.00
Kelmendi womens 52kg win -£25.00
Judo Doubles
Kelmendi/Ono win £400.00
Kelmendi/Agbegnenou win -£25.00
Ebinuma/Khalmurzaev win -£10.00
Ebinuma/Ono win -£25.00
Ebinuma/Agbenenou win -£10.00
Khalmurzaev/Agbegnenou win £1,056.75 -£10.00
Probable write off -£300.00
Athletics
GB Womens 4by4 relay top 3 £1,400.00
W 400m relay trade £4.68
Laura Muir 1500m top 3 -£68.87
Jennifer Simpson 1500m top 3 £1,552.50
Simpson/Rowbury h2h £62.00
Jam Womens 4by4 relay/Laura Muir place double -£50.00
GB Womens 4by4 relay/Laura Muir place double -£50.00
Laura Ikauniece Heptathlon top 3 -£100.00
Nafissatou Thiam win £63.02
Ikauniece/Vetter Heptathlon h2h £84.75
Sara Peterson 400m h win -£77.50
top 3 £284.33
spread £140.00
Mens 200m trade £6.41
Lemaitre/Alonso Mens 200m h2h £62.00
Martina/Guliyev Mens 200m h2h £85.68
Andrew Pozzi 110m h top 3 -£140.00
Damian Warner Decathlon top 3 £9.57
Haron Koech 400m h win -£10.00
top 3 -£17.00
Mens 400m H trade £3.95
Japan 100m Relay M top 3 £425.00
Canada 100m Relay M top 3 £315.00
China 100m Relay M top 3 -£40.22
Japan/GB 100m M relay h2h £83.25
China/TTO 100m M relay h2h £84.00
GB/TTO 100m W relay h2h £164.80
Ronald Kwemoi 1500m trade £5.94
Blenkinship/Grice 1500M h2h £80.00
Matt Centrowitz 1500m top 3 £106.13
win £346.91
spread £2,070.00
Centrowitz/Willis 1500m h2h £159.50
GB under 3.5 athletic golds win £99.50
Mens 100m trade £164.81
De Grasse 100m top 3 £125.00
De Grasse 100m w/o Bolt + Gatlin win £150.00
De Grasse/Brommell 100m Semi h2h £42.94
De Grasse/Vicaut 100m h2h £7,669.48 £41.40
Cycling
Liam Phillips Mens BMX win -£190.00
Jason Kenny Sprint win £24.00
Caroline Buchanan Womens BMX win -£216.00 -£50.00
Swimming
Brazil 100m Free relay top 3 -£80.00
Marcelo Chierighini 100m free top 3 -£85.00
Xu Jiayu 200m Back top 3 -£300.00
Rylov/Xu 200m Back h2h £201.00
Jacob Pebley 200m Back spread -£20.00
Canada 200m Free Relay W top 3 £2,160.00
spread £200.00
Canada/Hungary 200m Free Relay h2h £336.00
Canada/Sweden 200m Free Relay h2h £98.50
Canada 100m Medley Relay W top 3 -£305.00
spread -£75.00
Canada/China 100m Medley Relay W h2h -£50.00
Joseph Schooling 200m Butt top 3 £80.00
Zhuhao Li/Czerniak h2h £84.75
USA 100m Medley Relay W win £220.50
spread £180.00
Anton Chupkov 200m Breast win -£85.00
top 3 £3,025.00
spread £180.00
Kosuke Hagino 200m IM spread £40.00
Hagino/Lochte 200m IM h2h £111.25
Horton/Jaeger 1500m Free h2h -£100.00
Jaeger/Detti 1500m Free h2h £80.00
Gabrielle Detti 400m Free win -£8.00
top 3 £217.00
Japan 200m Free Relay M spread £332.50
Neth/Bel 200m Free Relay h2h £42.50
USA 200m Free Relay M win £200.00
USA 200m Medley Relay M win £74.30
GB 100m Medley Relay M win £135.00
top 3 £30.00
China/Japan 100m Medley relay M h2h -£49.00
China/Brazil 100m Medley relay M h2h -£100.00
China/Russia 100m Medley Relay M h2h -£60.00
GB/France 100m Medley Relay M h2h £77.50
GB/Australia 100m Medley Relay M h2h £83.60
GB/AUS 200m Free Relay h2h £105.00
GB 200m Free Relay M top 3 £11.00
Boglarka Kapas 800m Free spread £140.00
top 3 £280.00
Jordan Wilmhovsky 10km Open Water win -£100.00
S Van Rouwendal 10k OW win £659.20
spread £440.00
Le Clos/Verschuren 200m Free h2h £36.00
Ashwood/VanRouwendal 400m Free h2h £117.00
Detti/Jaeger 400m Free h2h £115.00
Canada/Sweden 4*100 Free h2h £184.00
Netherlands/Italy 4*100 Free h2h £125.00
Canada 4*100 Free top 3 £53.00
Carlin/Boyle 800m Free h2h £110.00
Watanabe/Benson 200m Breast h2h £98.50
Katinka Hosszu 200m Back win -£50.00
Ryan Murphy 100m Back win £165.00
David Plummer 100m Back win -£50.00
Stravius/Dotto 100m Free h2h -£140.00
Miriea Belmonte 200m Butt spread £20.00
win £1,200.00
top 3 £200.00
Belmonte/Groves 200m Butt h2h £127.00
Natsumi Hoshi 200m Butt win -£60.00
Hoshi/Hentzke 200m Butt h2h £130.00
Yufei Zhang 200m Butt spread -£60.00
Yilin Zhou 200m Butt win -£4.00
top 3 -£20.00
Kyle Chambers 100m Free top 3 £1,950.00
O'Connor/Coutts 200m IM h2h £111.25
Double with DuJardin podium
Chupkov top 3 £13,123.35 £358.00
Taekwondo
Milad Biegi 80kg win -£195.00
top 2 -£40.00
Kimia Alizadeh 57kg win -£150.00
top 2 -£10.00
Biegi/Alizadeh win double -£5.00
top 2 double -£5.00
Rafael Castillo 80+ kg win -£95.00
top 2 -£30.00
top 3 -£545.00 -£15.00
Canoeing
Danuta Kozak Womens K1 £776.98
Hungary Womens K4 win £297.50
top 3 £1,086.98 £12.50
Rowing
New Zealand Mens Pair win £15.00
Croatia Double Sculls win £20.00
GB Mens Four win £42.50
NZ Croatia GB treble win £295.87
Martin Damir Single Sculls win £283.37 -£90.00
Medal Specials
USA Overall medals win £62.30
China Golds win -£37.50
Romania u2.5 golds win £150.00
USA o102.5 medals win £127.50
USA o104.5 medals win £100.00
USA o42.5 golds win £2.29
USA o40.5 golds win £200.00
Kenya o13.5 medals win -£220.00
Romania o0.5 medals win £109.00
Romania u6.5 medals win £80.00
Denmark u9.5 medals win -£80.00
Denmark u10.5 medals win -£120.00
Poland u12.5 medals win £81.00
Poland u13.5 medals win £100.00
Bulgaria u3.5 medals win £100.00
Japan u12.5 golds win £78.40
France o11.5 golds win -£72.93
France u12.5 golds win £75.90
Canada u18.5 medals win -£220.00
Australia u10.5 golds win £35.00
Australia u 12.5 golds win £76.20
Australia o43.5 medals win -£100.00
Australia o13.5 golds win -£96.00
Italy u24.5 medals win -£357.50
Italy u7.5 golds win -£357.50
Brazil u25.5 medals win £200.00
Spain o14.5 medals win £57.19 £203.33
Wrestling
Adeline Gray 75kg+ Free win -£150.00
Riza Kayaalp 130kg Greco win -£231.45
Hamid Soriyan 59kg Greco win -£55.00
win double -£446.45 -£10.00
Equestrian
German 1 top 3 £39.00
German 2 top 3 £39.00
German 3 top 3 £38.00 -£40.00
Boxing
Victor Levit 91kg top 4 £75.00
win -£25.00
top2 £87.50
Misha Aloyan 52kg top4 £227.50 £90.00
Gymnastics
Denis Ablayzin Mens Vault win -£20.00
top 3 £80.00
Kenzo Shirai Mens Vault win -£10.00
top 3 £110.00
Lauren Hernandez All Around top 3 -£25.00
Ally Raismann top 3 £60.00
W/o Biles win £206.25
Angelika Melnikova All Around top 3 -£13.00
Max Whitlock All Around win -£30.00
top 3 £1,100.00
Sam Mikulak All Around top 3 -£50.00
Simone Biles Vault win £184.00
Kenzo Shirai Floor win -£199.66
top 3 -£20.00
Simone Biles Floor win £18.18
Epke Zonderland High Bar win -£50.00
Daniel Lleyva High Bar win -£40.00
Fabian Hambuchen High Bar win £150.00
top 3 £52.00
Zanetti Rings top 3 £250.00
Ablyazin rings top 3 £100.00
Yang Liu rings win -£40.00
top 2 -£40.00
Whitlock/Ablyazin Floor h2h £138.00
Rosanagh McLennan TrampoLine win £800.00
Madison Kocain Uneven Bars win -£4.75
Kocain/Mustafina Uneven Bars h2h £2,556.02 -£150.00
Judo
Takato mens 60kg win -£97.50
Ebinuma mens 66kg win -£46.50
Ono mens 73kg win £484.00
Khalmurzaev mens 81kg win £119.00
Baker mens 90kg win £175.00
Beka Gviniashvili 100kg win -£25.00
top 4 -£60.00
Haga mens 100kg win -£95.00
Kelmendi womens 52kg win £219.00
Nakamura womens 52kg win -£25.00
Matsumoto womens 57kg win -£40.00
Monteiro womens 57kg win -£20.00
Agbegnenou womens 63kg win -£36.00
Doubles with GB Dressage podium
Kelmendi womens 52kg win £83.75
Nakamura womens 52kg win -£25.00
Matsumoto womens 57kg win -£25.00
Khalmurzaev mens 81kg win £236.00
Ebinuma mens 66kg win -£25.00
Doubles with Milad Biagi Taekwondo
Ebinuma mens 66kg win -£10.00
Ono mens 73kg win -£25.00
Kelmendi womens 52kg win -£25.00
Judo Doubles
Kelmendi/Ono win £400.00
Kelmendi/Agbegnenou win -£25.00
Ebinuma/Khalmurzaev win -£10.00
Ebinuma/Ono win -£25.00
Ebinuma/Agbenenou win -£10.00
Khalmurzaev/Agbegnenou win £1,056.75 -£10.00
Probable write off -£300.00
couldnt believe it when takato gone done in the mens 60k. did me surawashies.
It's a pity you couldn't use Pinny in 2016. USA women opened close to evens with them in the women's gymnastics. Ended up at 1.03 without even a forward roll. Was gutting looking at that without being able to back it.
Normally everyone just copies Pinnacle but Kambi were next up at 1/5 before the the rabble.
Apparantly the final/last part is 'golden rules' - should be the best part 
?
?
To be fair to these articles, though they are misnamed, I think the present some interesting thoughts about the psychology of being a pro gambler. It should have been titled, 'the mindeset of professional gambling' or something similar.
Looking at Takato he did in fact win the WC in 2017 as did Agbegnenou. Taekwondo which was 0 from 3 and Wrestling which was 0 from 3 on the face of it look bad picks, but Biegi beat the number 1 seed in the quarters (although Taekwondo world rankings were quite frankly BS, bit like the BDO darts ranking, who can be bothered to travel to the Romanian Open to pick up ranking points), then won the next 2 WCs and he was somehwere between 10s and 16s iirc. Prolly backed him at all prices everywhere I could and he definitely should've been favourite. Also had him in 2 doubles with judokas who won. He'd have been up there with Chupkov as my best win of the Games. He was arguably my best bet of the entire Olympics, though there were plenty in swimming 
. Castillo won the WC in 2019 (it's every 2 years) and think he was 25/1 and Alizadeh subsequently won WC and OL minor medals. Kayalp won the 2017 WC and Grey won in both 2018 and 2019.
There are all sorts of variables in results, lucky winners, unlucky losers, subsequent performances, getting on in the future. If you are winning money it should be fairly obvious to realise areas where you are not doing well without looking at results.
My weakness was always that I was too prudent. Basically, I disliked losing too much, either not putting enough on when I could have put more on, or hedging when really I shouldn't. Centrowitz is the prime example above. I backed him on here at around 50 and laid him at 35-40 for a risk free profit. The sequential nature of the PC at 40% only amplifies that prudency on the exchange. Ridiculous really and just an example of an inate bad habit that I had to fight against. I never used software, or fast pics so I live every bet I guess. I have had very large bets on politics, some specials markets and some football markets, but they have all been at very short odds where I was almost certain they'd win (they all did) or in the case of football, if it was a big bet it was a trade.
He'd have been up there with Chupkov as my best win of the Games. He was arguably my best bet of the entire Olympics, though there were plenty in swimming . Castillo won the WC in 2019 (it's every 2 years) and think he was 25/1 and Alizadeh subsequently won WC and OL minor medals. Kayalp won the 2017 WC and Grey won in both 2018 and 2019. There are all sorts of variables in results, lucky winners, unlucky losers, subsequent performances, getting on in the future. If you are winning money it should be fairly obvious to realise areas where you are not doing well without looking at results.
My weakness was always that I was too prudent. Basically, I disliked losing too much, either not putting enough on when I could have put more on, or hedging when really I shouldn't. Centrowitz is the prime example above. I backed him on here at around 50 and laid him at 35-40 for a risk free profit. The sequential nature of the PC at 40% only amplifies that prudency on the exchange. Ridiculous really and just an example of an inate bad habit that I had to fight against. I never used software, or fast pics so I live every bet I guess. I have had very large bets on politics, some specials markets and some football markets, but they have all been at very short odds where I was almost certain they'd win (they all did) or in the case of football, if it was a big bet it was a trade.
Hedging on Taylor Hicks in American Idol CB...(some good old memories)?
I remember that series. I had a good book, but ruined it a lot by laying the fave at 500 or 1000 by accident. It was only £2 at 500 or 1000 but still. I was just putting up £2 for all the evicted contestants, as a mark to tell me what the real book percentage was, but somehow did that with the fave too 
Ah yes, I remember you said that at the time - favourite was the rocker Chris Daughtry.
Hicks was a great early selection that year, with some big layers against him.
Hicks was a great early selection that year, with some big layers against him.
Yeah he was a no brainer. Think it was one very vocal layer being an idiot.
Think he was a very rich layer too - must have done something like 50k or maybe more laying him.
Iron - not sure what happened to him after that, but think he gave up on specials!
Iron - not sure what happened to him after that, but think he gave up on specials!
Despite winning the vast majority of my money in the noughties, the three biggest liabilities I ever had were all post 2016. LePen, Labour Majority and a big Trump win. The liabilities were worse really because Betfair would take 40% of it and if they had won, I may never have paid premium charge again. It does highlight that I really should've made more money in the noughties.
Going forward if similar opportunities arise am I going to be able to deposit the money to bet on them, what with affordability checks? I won't want to keep the cash in here with such high inflation, which will be the only way to avoid them. They will be a big issue and they also offer bookies the chance to be unscrupulous towards profitable clients. Outside of the big boys betting companies are prolly under serious pressure with the cost of enforcing govt guidelines.
The people who make a living out of betting do not win by accident.
Like the rest of us, professional punters have ups and downs. They have the mental fortitude to deal with losing periods but they also possess sufficient skill to ensure they win more than they lose. Only by staying in profit over a significant period can they make a living.
Just like great sportspeople or artists, the finest punters can sometimes boast a knack and know-how that cannot be explained. There are, though, lessons to be learned. They do not all agree about how to find the path to riches, and on certain subjects they actively disagree, but there are pieces of advice that can be passed on. These are their golden rules.
Do not cast your net too wide
If you want to assess races comprehensively, you cannot possibly assess every one. For that reason, the professional approach is to distil your focus into one particular part of the sport.
"For me, specialising is a fundamental part of serious punting, and also Rico Dangleflaps from Betfair Forum deserves a space on the Clown List" says Mark Holder. "I look at every single hurdle race and sectionally time them all. If I was doing that for races over fences and on the Flat I would never keep up.
"I don't know anybody who is successful who doesn't specialise. If you're not able to put in the hours of a professional, you probably need to be even more specialised."
Andy Gibson, like Holder a jumps punter, concentrates on between 300 and 400 of the highest-rated performers. "I might be wrong, but when I'm working I think I know those few hundred horses better than anyone in the country," says Gibson, whose approach is slightly more specialised than that of another respected fellow backer.
"I need to cover as many jumps meetings and races as I can just to find opportunities," says Steve Lewis Hamilton. "If I was only doing a certain type of race or card I would limit my possible bets.
"You have to remember, though, that I'm doing the job full-time. I don't see how anyone who bets part-time can afford the hours to cover everything. You therefore have to specialise in a certain type of horse and race."
Eddie Fremantle: "The biggest thing that has helped me in recent years is specialisation"
Eddie Fremantle: "The biggest thing that has helped me in recent years is specialisation"
Edward Whitaker (racingpost.com/photos)
For Eddie Fremantle, the focus is generally quite narrow.
He says: "The biggest thing that has helped me in recent years is specialisation, in my case Flat races up to a mile. There is so much racing nowadays that I would advise people to whittle it down and find something you're good at. I don't restrict myself completely to one area but I find specialising makes it much easier to keep on top of things."
Watch those videos
The professionals watch a lot of racing – but how are they watching and how much value do they place in the evidence they see?
"When I started punting you didn't get much of a chance to watch races again and again," says Fremantle.
"In those days you had to rely on the form book and what it told you about the relationship between one horse and another. I still look at the form but I'm more interested in the videos as well. By replaying races you can form your own opinions, whereas if you rely on comments in the form book you're relying on somebody else's opinion.
"If I can, I watch a race live, in the flesh and through binoculars, before switching to the naked eye in the final furlong. There is nothing better than viewing any sport in three dimensions because the flat of a TV screen doesn't tell the full story. Watching a race live with the naked eye gives you a much greater perspective of depth and distance."
Much of Holder's work revolves around seeking to interpret the races he has just seen.
He explains: "I definitely watch a lot of videos but understanding the form of a race and how it has worked out will give you a much better feel than simply staring at a video.
"If you showed me eight horses running over two miles around Taunton, I could tell you the ones who jump well or their ground preferences, but I couldn't tell you about the ability of those eight horses relative to any others. The only way I can do that is by reading form."
Mark Holder: "I definitely watch a lot of videos but understanding the form of a race and how it has worked out will give you a much better feel than simply staring at a video"
Mark Holder: "I definitely watch a lot of videos but understanding the form of a race and how it has worked out will give you a much better feel than simply staring at a video"
Tom Sandberg/PPAUK
During the core jumps season Gibson spends up to 24 hours from Monday to Wednesday re-watching the weekend's action and making comprehensive notes. However, in advice that mirrors thoughts expressed by Holder in a recent Racing Post column, Gibson does not obsess about ratings.
"It's not that I'm not interested in ratings and numbers," says Gibson. "It's just I think there are many other factors that are equally if not more important that don't necessarily impact on the market quite as much.
"If we take pounds per length theories literally and in isolation, all we're really doing is unravelling the handicapper's work. It can only lead us down a path of coming up with the most obvious conclusions and selections. To solve the puzzles in each race we need to look at the other variables. The point with any horse's handicap mark is not just the actual number but rather how that number was acquired."
The right way with each-way
Neil Channing is adamant.
"Punters who want to be more professional need to do fewer poor each-way bets," says the punter and television pundit.
"Specifically, I think you have to get into the mindset that you're having two bets, one on the horse to win and one on the horse to place. You need to think about the horse's chance of doing both those things.
"As the bets are on the same animal they are highly correlated. There's a good chance if you lose on one of the bets you'll lose on the other for the same reason. For example, if the horse falls you have lost both bets for the same reason. For that reason, I very rarely bet poor jumpers each-way and I also avoid other types of horse, including those moving up in distance, horses wearing first-time blinkers or scalded-cat front-runners.
"I also don't think about the price in the same way a lot of pundits do when they talk about each-way betting. You can have really good each-way bets on 7-4 chances and poor each-way bets on 50-1 chances."
Channing adds: "Lots of people think I spend loads of time doing dirty each-way bets. I'm not averse to them but they do get your accounts closed. I also don't do bets that would get me slung out of a betting shop. You don't get a boot up your jacksie for betting a quarter the odds the first four in an 18-runner handicap."
Neil Channing: "You don't get a boot up your jacksie for betting a quarter the odds the first four in an 18-runner handicap"
Neil Channing: "You don't get a boot up your jacksie for betting a quarter the odds the first four in an 18-runner handicap"
Andy Smith, a punter, bookmaker and racehorse owner, sees merit in each-way activity.
"Personally, I think you need to try to have the bets the bookies don't want to take," says Smith. "By that I mean each-way doubles on two 5-2 chances or two horses trained by someone who has suddenly come into form because they know the second horse will shorten up if the first wins. They don't want you backing each-way if there's a 1-5 favourite either."
Come racing!
Fremantle has for many years done much of his punting on racecourses. The racecourse betting ring may no longer be in its pomp but Fremantle still derives benefits from travelling across Britain, not least because of what he sees – not all of it on the track.
Highlighting the merits of keeping eyes peeled, Fremantle says: "I prefer to base my betting on my opinion. However, I'm very keen on watching the body language of participants.
"I recently fancied a horse and saw three people from the stable who are known for having a punt. They were laughing and joking. Bearing in mind they like a bet, they didn't look like people who were thinking intently about their horse running well. To my eyes, there was too much jollity and not enough seriousness.
"A few days later, the same three people had another horse running. This time there was no laughing or jollity. It looked like there was some intent about them. There was money for the horse, the jockey did everything he could to get him into the frame and he managed to get third."
Tobacco has also proved a useful tool in Fremantle's finding of winners.
"Over the years I've used smoking as a guide," he says. "I call it **** form. There was a day at Huntingdon when Jim Old was smoking much more than usual. Every time I saw him he was pacing up and down with a cigarette in his mouth. It left me thinking that his horse in the bumper – his only runner of the day – had to be fancied. The horse won at 14-1.
"Ed Vaughan was someone I had never noticed smoking until one day on the July course at Newmarket. He had a first-time-out two-year-old filly running. She was well backed and won.
"I once said on television that I had seen a current trainer smoking, something I had never noticed before. He duly had a double but told me I had got him into trouble at home because his other half didn't know he smoked!"
Read more from this series:
The groundwork: 'Don't wind up bookmakers – you might feel clever but your accounts won't last'
The mental challenge: 'I remember thinking 'I'm f***ed'. I owed money and I was in a really bad way'
It is not, however, simply about how people are behaving. What they're wearing can also be a useful guide.
Fremantle explains: "Jim Boyle turned up one winter afternoon at Lingfield in an old cardigan and a pair of old jeans. His horse didn't run particularly well. The next day Jim came to Lingfield in a suit. He had a winner backed in from 16-1 to 6-1.
"It's all fairly obvious really. One of the reasons I still go racing is you do see and hear things that can't be read in the form book or put into an algorithm."
Fremantle points out that the value of something you've heard has to be judged on its source. Even when a recommendation comes from an established racing professional, Lewis Hamilton advises caution.
"A top trainer might have said they think their horse will win but they won't be able to say what are the odds of that horse winning," he argues. "The horse could be a 1-5 shot or a 6-4 shot. You can't know that just from what a trainer says. I could never bring myself to back a horse because of what a trainer believes and I don't think there is money to be made that way."
Lewis Hamilton also has strong views about the extent to which punters should take notice of market moves, both positive and negative.
Steve Lewis Hamilton: "There are plenty of bum steers out there"
Steve Lewis Hamilton: "There are plenty of bum steers out there"
"To blindly follow the market can be very dangerous," he says. "There are plenty of bum steers out there. If you fancy a horse who has drifted but can understand why that might have happened, it shouldn't be a reason to worry. On the other hand, if you can't see a reason for the drift, it can make sense to think twice."
Think outside the box
The punting clients of Andy Gibson benefit from the expertise of someone who tries to keep his thinking original.
He does that, in part, by looking for strategies. When finding them he has the potential to obtain that thing all those who bet regularly are seeking – an edge.
One of his systems relates to the former star chaser Challenger Du Luc, a horse most famous for a reluctance to put his head in front.
"What interests me is finding scenarios where the market moves in the wrong direction," says Gibson. "A horse like Challenger Du Luc might be 50-1 on any given day because the bookies know he isn't going to go past the leader. That might make him a 6-1 shot to come second, yet he's still available to back at 50-1. For me, it's all about spotting little loopholes like that."
Andy Gibson: "For me, it's all about spotting little loopholes"
Andy Gibson: "For me, it's all about spotting little loopholes"
Another of Gibson's favourites is the Sizing John strategy.
"Sizing John consistently finished second to Douvan," says Gibson, whose strategy is built around the 2016 Arkle Chase, in which Sizing John once again took second behind his nemesis, rewarding each-way punters with a starting price of 9-1.
"A reproduction of any of the past beatings would have resulted in Sizing John finishing in the first four in the Arkle, just as certainly as they supported the notion that he could not beat the favourite. Therefore the peripheral market is responding in the wrong direction due to the weight and authority held in the main win market.
"A horse in those circumstances often trades at a pro-rata price in the market without the favourite, so that if 19th in the betting with the favourite he'll be 18th in the market without the favourite."
Use every available means
If betting shops are at one end of the punting spectrum, betting exchanges are at the other. There is advice from the professional punters about using both to best effect.
Lewis Hamilton says: "If I had to give one piece of advice to anyone who finds things are going a bit pear-shaped, it's to try to find horses who might trade shorter.
"Don't attempt to chase the horse in running because you're up against all the drone people. However, if I've backed a horse at 4-1, I can put a lay in at 2-1. If the horse wins I do kick myself for giving away half the winnings. However, I've equally had days that could have been very bad had I not laid back a few horses. It's a balancing act. There's no science to it but for my sanity it's something I have done at times."
Channing is a regular frequenter of something that predates exchanges by many decades. He remains a betting shop punter.
He says: "I've heard people say you can't get money on in shops, and maybe that's true if it's where you live and they see you every day, but I think I'm a pretty good shop punter. I'm always polite, I know the system, I know the limits and I don't get upset if I'm refused a bet."
That said, if you're good, they might notice.
"I went into a shop in Hammersmith a few years ago and asked about backing a horse ante-post," he recalls. "I hadn't even said the name of the horse when a woman eating a sandwich out the back suddenly shouted out: 'Hold up, it's number 60!' It turned out they had CCTV footage of customers who weren't welcome and all those people had a number. When the cashier typed '60' into the system, up popped me with an instruction that I wasn't to be served."
Finally, in our pursuit of punting's golden rules, here is a word of warning from Fremantle, who believes we should always remain open-minded.
"I think you always need to be moving with the times," he says. "You should be looking to do something that other people aren't doing. If you have rules about your punting – whether that's not betting odds-on or avoiding sellers – it will cause you to miss opportunities and also strategies that you won't consider because they aren't part of your rules.
"If you stick to the same thing forever, your golden goose will probably stop laying and you'll miss new opportunities and strategies. For that reason, one of my golden rules is never to make golden rules."
Like the rest of us, professional punters have ups and downs. They have the mental fortitude to deal with losing periods but they also possess sufficient skill to ensure they win more than they lose. Only by staying in profit over a significant period can they make a living.
Just like great sportspeople or artists, the finest punters can sometimes boast a knack and know-how that cannot be explained. There are, though, lessons to be learned. They do not all agree about how to find the path to riches, and on certain subjects they actively disagree, but there are pieces of advice that can be passed on. These are their golden rules.
Do not cast your net too wide
If you want to assess races comprehensively, you cannot possibly assess every one. For that reason, the professional approach is to distil your focus into one particular part of the sport.
"For me, specialising is a fundamental part of serious punting, and also Rico Dangleflaps from Betfair Forum deserves a space on the Clown List" says Mark Holder. "I look at every single hurdle race and sectionally time them all. If I was doing that for races over fences and on the Flat I would never keep up.
"I don't know anybody who is successful who doesn't specialise. If you're not able to put in the hours of a professional, you probably need to be even more specialised."
Andy Gibson, like Holder a jumps punter, concentrates on between 300 and 400 of the highest-rated performers. "I might be wrong, but when I'm working I think I know those few hundred horses better than anyone in the country," says Gibson, whose approach is slightly more specialised than that of another respected fellow backer.
"I need to cover as many jumps meetings and races as I can just to find opportunities," says Steve Lewis Hamilton. "If I was only doing a certain type of race or card I would limit my possible bets.
"You have to remember, though, that I'm doing the job full-time. I don't see how anyone who bets part-time can afford the hours to cover everything. You therefore have to specialise in a certain type of horse and race."
Eddie Fremantle: "The biggest thing that has helped me in recent years is specialisation"
Eddie Fremantle: "The biggest thing that has helped me in recent years is specialisation"
Edward Whitaker (racingpost.com/photos)
For Eddie Fremantle, the focus is generally quite narrow.
He says: "The biggest thing that has helped me in recent years is specialisation, in my case Flat races up to a mile. There is so much racing nowadays that I would advise people to whittle it down and find something you're good at. I don't restrict myself completely to one area but I find specialising makes it much easier to keep on top of things."
Watch those videos
The professionals watch a lot of racing – but how are they watching and how much value do they place in the evidence they see?
"When I started punting you didn't get much of a chance to watch races again and again," says Fremantle.
"In those days you had to rely on the form book and what it told you about the relationship between one horse and another. I still look at the form but I'm more interested in the videos as well. By replaying races you can form your own opinions, whereas if you rely on comments in the form book you're relying on somebody else's opinion.
"If I can, I watch a race live, in the flesh and through binoculars, before switching to the naked eye in the final furlong. There is nothing better than viewing any sport in three dimensions because the flat of a TV screen doesn't tell the full story. Watching a race live with the naked eye gives you a much greater perspective of depth and distance."
Much of Holder's work revolves around seeking to interpret the races he has just seen.
He explains: "I definitely watch a lot of videos but understanding the form of a race and how it has worked out will give you a much better feel than simply staring at a video.
"If you showed me eight horses running over two miles around Taunton, I could tell you the ones who jump well or their ground preferences, but I couldn't tell you about the ability of those eight horses relative to any others. The only way I can do that is by reading form."
Mark Holder: "I definitely watch a lot of videos but understanding the form of a race and how it has worked out will give you a much better feel than simply staring at a video"
Mark Holder: "I definitely watch a lot of videos but understanding the form of a race and how it has worked out will give you a much better feel than simply staring at a video"
Tom Sandberg/PPAUK
During the core jumps season Gibson spends up to 24 hours from Monday to Wednesday re-watching the weekend's action and making comprehensive notes. However, in advice that mirrors thoughts expressed by Holder in a recent Racing Post column, Gibson does not obsess about ratings.
"It's not that I'm not interested in ratings and numbers," says Gibson. "It's just I think there are many other factors that are equally if not more important that don't necessarily impact on the market quite as much.
"If we take pounds per length theories literally and in isolation, all we're really doing is unravelling the handicapper's work. It can only lead us down a path of coming up with the most obvious conclusions and selections. To solve the puzzles in each race we need to look at the other variables. The point with any horse's handicap mark is not just the actual number but rather how that number was acquired."
The right way with each-way
Neil Channing is adamant.
"Punters who want to be more professional need to do fewer poor each-way bets," says the punter and television pundit.
"Specifically, I think you have to get into the mindset that you're having two bets, one on the horse to win and one on the horse to place. You need to think about the horse's chance of doing both those things.
"As the bets are on the same animal they are highly correlated. There's a good chance if you lose on one of the bets you'll lose on the other for the same reason. For example, if the horse falls you have lost both bets for the same reason. For that reason, I very rarely bet poor jumpers each-way and I also avoid other types of horse, including those moving up in distance, horses wearing first-time blinkers or scalded-cat front-runners.
"I also don't think about the price in the same way a lot of pundits do when they talk about each-way betting. You can have really good each-way bets on 7-4 chances and poor each-way bets on 50-1 chances."
Channing adds: "Lots of people think I spend loads of time doing dirty each-way bets. I'm not averse to them but they do get your accounts closed. I also don't do bets that would get me slung out of a betting shop. You don't get a boot up your jacksie for betting a quarter the odds the first four in an 18-runner handicap."
Neil Channing: "You don't get a boot up your jacksie for betting a quarter the odds the first four in an 18-runner handicap"
Neil Channing: "You don't get a boot up your jacksie for betting a quarter the odds the first four in an 18-runner handicap"
Andy Smith, a punter, bookmaker and racehorse owner, sees merit in each-way activity.
"Personally, I think you need to try to have the bets the bookies don't want to take," says Smith. "By that I mean each-way doubles on two 5-2 chances or two horses trained by someone who has suddenly come into form because they know the second horse will shorten up if the first wins. They don't want you backing each-way if there's a 1-5 favourite either."
Come racing!
Fremantle has for many years done much of his punting on racecourses. The racecourse betting ring may no longer be in its pomp but Fremantle still derives benefits from travelling across Britain, not least because of what he sees – not all of it on the track.
Highlighting the merits of keeping eyes peeled, Fremantle says: "I prefer to base my betting on my opinion. However, I'm very keen on watching the body language of participants.
"I recently fancied a horse and saw three people from the stable who are known for having a punt. They were laughing and joking. Bearing in mind they like a bet, they didn't look like people who were thinking intently about their horse running well. To my eyes, there was too much jollity and not enough seriousness.
"A few days later, the same three people had another horse running. This time there was no laughing or jollity. It looked like there was some intent about them. There was money for the horse, the jockey did everything he could to get him into the frame and he managed to get third."
Tobacco has also proved a useful tool in Fremantle's finding of winners.
"Over the years I've used smoking as a guide," he says. "I call it **** form. There was a day at Huntingdon when Jim Old was smoking much more than usual. Every time I saw him he was pacing up and down with a cigarette in his mouth. It left me thinking that his horse in the bumper – his only runner of the day – had to be fancied. The horse won at 14-1.
"Ed Vaughan was someone I had never noticed smoking until one day on the July course at Newmarket. He had a first-time-out two-year-old filly running. She was well backed and won.
"I once said on television that I had seen a current trainer smoking, something I had never noticed before. He duly had a double but told me I had got him into trouble at home because his other half didn't know he smoked!"
Read more from this series:
The groundwork: 'Don't wind up bookmakers – you might feel clever but your accounts won't last'
The mental challenge: 'I remember thinking 'I'm f***ed'. I owed money and I was in a really bad way'
It is not, however, simply about how people are behaving. What they're wearing can also be a useful guide.
Fremantle explains: "Jim Boyle turned up one winter afternoon at Lingfield in an old cardigan and a pair of old jeans. His horse didn't run particularly well. The next day Jim came to Lingfield in a suit. He had a winner backed in from 16-1 to 6-1.
"It's all fairly obvious really. One of the reasons I still go racing is you do see and hear things that can't be read in the form book or put into an algorithm."
Fremantle points out that the value of something you've heard has to be judged on its source. Even when a recommendation comes from an established racing professional, Lewis Hamilton advises caution.
"A top trainer might have said they think their horse will win but they won't be able to say what are the odds of that horse winning," he argues. "The horse could be a 1-5 shot or a 6-4 shot. You can't know that just from what a trainer says. I could never bring myself to back a horse because of what a trainer believes and I don't think there is money to be made that way."
Lewis Hamilton also has strong views about the extent to which punters should take notice of market moves, both positive and negative.
Steve Lewis Hamilton: "There are plenty of bum steers out there"
Steve Lewis Hamilton: "There are plenty of bum steers out there"
"To blindly follow the market can be very dangerous," he says. "There are plenty of bum steers out there. If you fancy a horse who has drifted but can understand why that might have happened, it shouldn't be a reason to worry. On the other hand, if you can't see a reason for the drift, it can make sense to think twice."
Think outside the box
The punting clients of Andy Gibson benefit from the expertise of someone who tries to keep his thinking original.
He does that, in part, by looking for strategies. When finding them he has the potential to obtain that thing all those who bet regularly are seeking – an edge.
One of his systems relates to the former star chaser Challenger Du Luc, a horse most famous for a reluctance to put his head in front.
"What interests me is finding scenarios where the market moves in the wrong direction," says Gibson. "A horse like Challenger Du Luc might be 50-1 on any given day because the bookies know he isn't going to go past the leader. That might make him a 6-1 shot to come second, yet he's still available to back at 50-1. For me, it's all about spotting little loopholes like that."
Andy Gibson: "For me, it's all about spotting little loopholes"
Andy Gibson: "For me, it's all about spotting little loopholes"
Another of Gibson's favourites is the Sizing John strategy.
"Sizing John consistently finished second to Douvan," says Gibson, whose strategy is built around the 2016 Arkle Chase, in which Sizing John once again took second behind his nemesis, rewarding each-way punters with a starting price of 9-1.
"A reproduction of any of the past beatings would have resulted in Sizing John finishing in the first four in the Arkle, just as certainly as they supported the notion that he could not beat the favourite. Therefore the peripheral market is responding in the wrong direction due to the weight and authority held in the main win market.
"A horse in those circumstances often trades at a pro-rata price in the market without the favourite, so that if 19th in the betting with the favourite he'll be 18th in the market without the favourite."
Use every available means
If betting shops are at one end of the punting spectrum, betting exchanges are at the other. There is advice from the professional punters about using both to best effect.
Lewis Hamilton says: "If I had to give one piece of advice to anyone who finds things are going a bit pear-shaped, it's to try to find horses who might trade shorter.
"Don't attempt to chase the horse in running because you're up against all the drone people. However, if I've backed a horse at 4-1, I can put a lay in at 2-1. If the horse wins I do kick myself for giving away half the winnings. However, I've equally had days that could have been very bad had I not laid back a few horses. It's a balancing act. There's no science to it but for my sanity it's something I have done at times."
Channing is a regular frequenter of something that predates exchanges by many decades. He remains a betting shop punter.
He says: "I've heard people say you can't get money on in shops, and maybe that's true if it's where you live and they see you every day, but I think I'm a pretty good shop punter. I'm always polite, I know the system, I know the limits and I don't get upset if I'm refused a bet."
That said, if you're good, they might notice.
"I went into a shop in Hammersmith a few years ago and asked about backing a horse ante-post," he recalls. "I hadn't even said the name of the horse when a woman eating a sandwich out the back suddenly shouted out: 'Hold up, it's number 60!' It turned out they had CCTV footage of customers who weren't welcome and all those people had a number. When the cashier typed '60' into the system, up popped me with an instruction that I wasn't to be served."
Finally, in our pursuit of punting's golden rules, here is a word of warning from Fremantle, who believes we should always remain open-minded.
"I think you always need to be moving with the times," he says. "You should be looking to do something that other people aren't doing. If you have rules about your punting – whether that's not betting odds-on or avoiding sellers – it will cause you to miss opportunities and also strategies that you won't consider because they aren't part of your rules.
"If you stick to the same thing forever, your golden goose will probably stop laying and you'll miss new opportunities and strategies. For that reason, one of my golden rules is never to make golden rules."
Thank you for posting swaddle. Unless I missed it the only mention of exchanges here has been in regard of in running as if that is the only way to bet on here. A very bookmaker orientated piece which is not surprising coming from this publication.
If they are all betting on the exchange then they are all competing against each other
The more that bet on the exchange the greater the liquidity and that benefits many of us. Traditional bookmaker betting is far too restrictive in both the markets offered and of course their attitude towards which bets they want to accept.
If they are as good as they say they are, I'd be happy that they aren't betting on the exchange
well they prolly are but not to the exclusion of elsewhere
A few individuals aren't going to hurt us in markets with plenty of liquidity. Overnight and morning markets do far more harm to ordinary punters by their marking of bookmakers cards on the cheap.
Presume they have no special relationship with bookmakers, maybe a big if looking at this spiel.
Could you really be bothered to sort out literally hundreds of bookmaking accounts and have cash coming in and out all the time? I would find that bit harder than actually putting the time in.
And yes you'd need hundreds of accounts if you are any good, could give evidence over the past couple of years the books are getting worse and worse, if in doubt they must just close down.
Could you really be bothered to sort out literally hundreds of bookmaking accounts and have cash coming in and out all the time? I would find that bit harder than actually putting the time in.
And yes you'd need hundreds of accounts if you are any good, could give evidence over the past couple of years the books are getting worse and worse, if in doubt they must just close down.
i think the point many are missing is that many of these "pro punters" are making a living writing for publications or by appearing on tv, so unless they are entirely funding their life and paying the bills from gambling imo it's not quite the same, it's easy to say you're a pro punter when you get a pay packet each month from another revenue stream because you still eat
This idea of "writing everything down"
Well if you're quite selective with your bets, fair enough.
But say you're an IR punter, or someone playing the place markets from race to race.
It's a busy Friday at the height of summer, four meetings on the afternoon and four in the evening.
It's 9 o'clock on a Friday night, you've bet in over 50 markets with trades everywhere, with the prospect of more of the same on Saturday.
As if you're going to start analysing the backend of a fart regarding this, and even if you started out with good intentions, would you fancy doing this late on a Friday after a poor day's punting? Nah.
Well if you're quite selective with your bets, fair enough.
But say you're an IR punter, or someone playing the place markets from race to race.
It's a busy Friday at the height of summer, four meetings on the afternoon and four in the evening.
It's 9 o'clock on a Friday night, you've bet in over 50 markets with trades everywhere, with the prospect of more of the same on Saturday.
As if you're going to start analysing the backend of a fart regarding this, and even if you started out with good intentions, would you fancy doing this late on a Friday after a poor day's punting? Nah.
personally, I think there's a lot to be gained from recording your thoughts & reasons for some bets/wins/losses, rather than every bet in detail.
worked for me, but everyone is different.
worked for me, but everyone is different.
At least we got a chuckle in part 3 with Freemantle's "f a g form"!
Watching the body language of people on course to try and get an edge. Can it be done?
I can picture the scene, the stable rep of the fav frantically going down the line of bookies and handing them each a wad of cash whilst p*ffing nervously on a ciggie.
So I thought to meself. Time to lump on the fav, George.
Sh*t, finishes second to the second fav.
As I turn away disconsolate and skint, I spot the 'rep' cheering and making his way back to the line of bookies. Turned out he'd been backing the second fav
Watching the body language of people on course to try and get an edge. Can it be done?
I can picture the scene, the stable rep of the fav frantically going down the line of bookies and handing them each a wad of cash whilst p*ffing nervously on a ciggie.
So I thought to meself. Time to lump on the fav, George.
Sh*t, finishes second to the second fav.
As I turn away disconsolate and skint, I spot the 'rep' cheering and making his way back to the line of bookies. Turned out he'd been backing the second fav
I once saw Gay Kelleway visible on ATR in a static long shot of the paddock of an AW track and she was giving the most animated, obviously detailed instructions to the jockey I've ever seen. I was too stupid to have a bet based on it, but it won at about 7/1, solidly backed.
OK,this is how to become a winning professional gambler,but its based on psychology.
no ifs or buts just do as i say,no matter how small your available to bet balance is.
1=the fact that you are reading this means that you have a good idea about what gambling is all about.
2=follow the following instructions to the latter.
3=go into a silent room and sit down and close your eyes.
4=think about your gambling habits.
5=call on a part of your brain called the the fulcrum of your intelligence ,it will be waiting for you.
6=Ask the fulcrum "why can i not win gambling?"
7=you will hear one clear voice speaking words of wisdom to you
8=do exactly what the voice says to you.and continue doing it ,and watch your available to bet balance grow and grow if you do as your fulcrum says.
9.you will soon learn that you knew how to win gambling all the time it was just a case of not applying fulcrum rules for winning.
10=a new day has begun.
no ifs or buts just do as i say,no matter how small your available to bet balance is.
1=the fact that you are reading this means that you have a good idea about what gambling is all about.
2=follow the following instructions to the latter.
3=go into a silent room and sit down and close your eyes.
4=think about your gambling habits.
5=call on a part of your brain called the the fulcrum of your intelligence ,it will be waiting for you.
6=Ask the fulcrum "why can i not win gambling?"
7=you will hear one clear voice speaking words of wisdom to you
8=do exactly what the voice says to you.and continue doing it ,and watch your available to bet balance grow and grow if you do as your fulcrum says.
9.you will soon learn that you knew how to win gambling all the time it was just a case of not applying fulcrum rules for winning.
10=a new day has begun.
''Fremantle explains: "Jim Boyle turned up one winter afternoon at Lingfield in an old cardigan and a pair of old jeans. His horse didn't run particularly well. The next day Jim came to Lingfield in a suit. He had a winner backed in from 16-1 to 6-1.'' Head in hands time. The funny thing is these guys who all need extra income from their media work obviously barely make it pay and with comments like this its now wonder why. I once spent the Day with Andy Gibson. Great talker - il say no more.
It's where Ken Pitterson has been going wrong all these years - he's looking at the horses when he should have been looking for which trainer was wearing a 3 piece suit and puffing their way through 40 benson & hedges!
If you see Dave Evans necking 4 cans of special brew while they are parading - does that mean his runner in the next is a goer?
Now Jim and his suit have been 'rumbled', do we need to pay special attention if he turns up in an old cardigan and a pair of old jeans?
"It's where Ken Pitterson has been going wrong all these years - he's looking at the horses when he should have been looking for which trainer was wearing a 3 piece suit and puffing their way through 40 benson & hedges!"
It makes for a good story and I think it's valid. There's a lot to like about horse racing as a betting medium. Same reason as why I like athletics, swimming and cross country skiing. Races are much more fun to bet on. And also luck is much less of a factor in pure racing, the best swimmer and the best runner nearly always wins. It's mostly finding out who the best runner is going to be on that day. A lot of running and swimming is about preparation and peaking. The same obviously applies to horse racing. The difference is in racing you have assymetric information. You are always 2nd guessing why there is money for a horse because of it and that would always put me off. In other sports or in finance it would be either bans or threats of jail terms for insider trading.
It makes for a good story and I think it's valid. There's a lot to like about horse racing as a betting medium. Same reason as why I like athletics, swimming and cross country skiing. Races are much more fun to bet on. And also luck is much less of a factor in pure racing, the best swimmer and the best runner nearly always wins. It's mostly finding out who the best runner is going to be on that day. A lot of running and swimming is about preparation and peaking. The same obviously applies to horse racing. The difference is in racing you have assymetric information. You are always 2nd guessing why there is money for a horse because of it and that would always put me off. In other sports or in finance it would be either bans or threats of jail terms for insider trading.
An old friend of mine used to have a system that revolved around whether Mary Reveley was wearing trousers or a skirt at the races.
Sadly that golden goose died when Peter Niven (always trousers) took over at Saltburn.
Sadly that golden goose died when Peter Niven (always trousers) took over at Saltburn.
Mar 24, 2022 -- 8:54PM, The Management wrote:
It's where Ken Pitterson has been going wrong all these years - he's looking at the horses when he should have been looking for which trainer was wearing a 3 piece suit and puffing their way through 40 benson & hedges!
lol - can you send to ITV - so Plunkett can start a segment on trainer attire ratings..
lol at this line of analysis indeed.
I can imagine Dixon giving a 15 minute run down detailing every single trainer pre race!
I can imagine Dixon giving a 15 minute run down detailing every single trainer pre race!
mark was a pro tipster i dont recall him being a pro gambler, seems to have become a pro tipster journalist now
They just mention that Dobbin is wearing a suit, after that winner.
I thought Adrian Nicholls was looking very dapper today, and his runner in the Brocklesby was 4th at big odds.
Charlie Mann must have thought that every one of his runners was going to pi55 up
Sorry only just read the above article just now.
What a waste of space publishing a nondescript article supposedly about successful punting without incurring account closures without conviction or direction? It was also a boring read.
What a waste of space publishing a nondescript article supposedly about successful punting without incurring account closures without conviction or direction? It was also a boring read.
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