jumps racing at Nottingham, Windsor and Wolverhampton

The only thing that I remember about jump racing at Windsor is that it was there that the Duke Of Devonshire`s brilliant hurdler Gay George was tragically killed. Loved fast ground and the quickest over a hurdle that I ever seen. Sad day it was.

My first visit to a racecourse was when my mother and I took the 441 bus to Windsor for the New Year's Day Hurdle in 1976. We both fell in love with the magnificent Sea Pigeon in the paddock, and that was our bet of the day.

Jonjo was riding Sea Pigeon for GW Richards, and was tracking Fulke Walwyn's Dramatist when the latter fell in front of him. Comedy Of Errors went clear, but Jonjo drove Sea Pigeon up to take the lead as they passed us in the stands. Inevitably Sea Pigeon then threw it away just before the line, but I didn't realize in those days that you're supposed to avoid ungenuine creatures like that, and Sea Pigeon was the one I followed for the rest of his career.

Luckily the horse moved on the MH Easterby, or the next few years might not have turned out half as thrilling.

not sure which I'm more surprised at - buses running on New Years Day (nada here in Edinburgh yet there are 5000+ at Musselburgh that day) or Sea Pigeon (all the way from Cumbria) running at Windsor!!  I saw your post on another thread and your pre A Maguire comment, well Francome gave sea pigeon the sort of ride that Maguire could only dream about!!

Trains and buses use to run on Boxing day as well, i remember going Kempton when Silver Buck beat Jack of Trumps on B day,
nowadays the lazy bar steward train drivers won't work, not that they do much anyway

Good point. I backed Sea Pigeon in that 1981 Champion Hurdle with total confidence, and Francome's presence in the saddle played a big part in it. But Francome never had to ride against jockeys of the quality that emerged from the 1990s onwards. When I look at videos now from before that period, just about every jockey bar Francome looks like a modern point-to-point rider.

New Year's Day was simply not a cause for public celebration down here back then. It had become a Bank Holiday in 1974, which was nice, but nobody really understood why.

sure francome stood out cause the rest around that time weren't very good, some will say bradley or scu or jonjo but no doubt the bar was raised in the 90s..up here we need an extra day holiday!! even as a kid, hogmanay was a much bigger thing for me than Christmas - loved all the first footing, staggering around invariably icy/snowy back roads terrified of falling and breaking the bottles in the co-op plastic bag, but knowing you'd get a warm welcome (even though well under age) a choice of broth, stovies or dumpling, and a wee dram or twa - happy days!! unfortunately in course of less than 2 generations those traditions have disappeared - such is change

I couldn`t remember that GWR trained Sea Pigeon, you learn something every day. Jeremy Tree trained him on the Flat and he carried Jock Whitney`s famous colours in the Derby. Think Sea Pigeon finished 7th behind Morston.

I was talking about the colours on here the other day Mac ,1982 peacetime also trained by Jeremy tree also ran in the derby but obviously didn’t go on to be the great hurdler sea pigeon become.

Talking of Sea Pigeon's 1981 success I was living in Hong Kong at the time and think we were 7/8 hours ahead. Rang Playboy Bookmakers and stuck on £50 and they plugged me into the live commentary. There were 6 of us trying to listen in ;very exciting race.

It should be remembered that Sea Pigeon had astonking record in the race being runner up as an 8yo and 9yo then winning as a 10yo and 11yo.
I certainly can't remember another 10yo winning the race.

The falling out between Pat Muldoon and Gordon Richards was a long-time brewing. It seems that Richards regularly used to tell Muldoon that one of his horses was a good thing, then on the day would run another one against it with the inevitable outcome. In the end he tried it once too often, and the horses were moved to Peter Easterby, including Sea Pigeon.

Hattons Grace won at 10 and 11 posy but the Pigeon was a different animal,hard to decide between him and Night Nurse as to my fav of all time in the CH.

Posy Hatton grace was 11 but like me you will be much to young to remember him,you will know the race ran in his name at fairyhouse.

Beat me to it glentoby.

Foxy, they were very prominent colours but seem to have disappeared. Easter Hero carried them to win successive Gold Cups in 1929 and 1930 and when finishing 2nd under a big weight of 12st 7lbs in the 1929 National behind Gregalach to whom he was conceding 17lbs. Here is the race https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PdSHR_rmyu4 and although in B & W the Whitney silks still remain easy to pick out. And the course was a phenomenal test of jumping and courage. Quite amazing filming given the period.

Sorry foxy,the CH is one of the few races I really know any history about and the Pigeon/Hattons achievements were so unique it sticks in the memory.

When Night Nurse won in 77 it was my first bet in the race,I had £1 ew at sp whilst my mate had £500 (Our leave clerk whos dad was a bookie).We were on about £14 a week as soldiers.He was nearly crying as heavy as the rain that fell and resigned to NN losing,the 15/2 was manna from heaven and tha real catalyst for me getting into racing and punting.He had more on Sea Pigeon both times and my own bet had been upped to a score both times.

Happy days!!!

Windsor New Year's Day Hurdle

1991
Aldino 7-11-7 J Osborne 3-1
Beldale Star 7-11-4 5-2
Ryde Again 7-11-4 9-4 F

1992
Royal Derbi 6-11-7 D Murphy 9-2
Aldino 8-11-10 16-1
Floyd 11-11-10 10-1

1972-73 multiple winners in the 4 preceding years.

Nottingham
Dondieu
Proud Percy

Wolverhampton
Bighorn

Windsor
Inch Arran
Potentate

I was at Cheltenham the day Sea Pigeon won the Champion Hurdle under Francome, i was only and had just started managing one of Joes shops. 3 customers had said they were going so i asked if i could go with them to make up 4. They said no problem.
They were what you would call dodgy and picked me up at 8.0
On the way we stopped at a pub at about 11.0, 3 of us went in for a bottle beer and the driver stayed in the car, after a couple of bottles we set off again. The drivet said did we fancy another but we hadnt got a carry out but he opened the boot and there were 2 cratez in there, the dray had been delivering and he helped himself to the crates.
At the races i had a decent day having backed the Pigeon as i always did but one of the others won £800 and after racing we shot off tto Slough dogs where he lost the lot.
When we got back i stayed at one of the chaps house for the night and i was that worried that he might get my keys as they my shop key on them and go and rob the shop so i slept with the keys in my underpants, uncomfortable but nothing happened.
Still see one of the guys around the town occasionally and he was on Jeremy Kyle at one stage, not really a surprise.

Mac

The last i remember was in the Whitney colours was a filly who broke down in the oaks called scimitarra not 100% she was his,can’t think of any since I should think he has popped it now .

Glentoby

You certainly started watching the champion hurdle in its strongest era the first I saw live was sea pigeons first win ,it would still be right up there with my favourite festival memories.

It was certainly a magical era for hurdlers foxy.As for the Pigeon,you have to believe that he was bit of a rogue going by certain comments about JF "Smuggling" him into the race.I don't subscribe to that,he had a huge amount of guts and knew how to battle,to this day if push came to shove I would still be undecided between him and Night Nurse as my all time fav.

What I will say is that I am convinced Harchibald would have won had JF been on his back instead of Carberry regardless of what Carberry has said since,what do you reckon?

Foxy

John Hay (Jock) Whitney was the US ambassador to UK and died in 1982.

In America he and his sister Joan inherited the famous Greentree Stables (Sea Pigeon was actually born there) upon the death of their mother Helen Hay Whitney in 1944.

Joan died in 1975 and Jock in 1982 and their heirs later sold Greentree to Gainesway Farm in 1989.

John Cherry was another decent hurdler who began life in the famous Whitney colours.

A lot of decent horses ran in his colours for Jeremy Tree but can`t think of a G1 winner to have carried them in UK.

Blackbarn will know who the colours are registered with now.

I well remember John Cherry,MM,my mate of the Night Nurse bet had him down as a Champion Hurdle winner of the future,never quite lived up to the ability he obviously possessed.

Glen your mate wasn`t the only one who had John Cherry down as a future Champion hurdler. Milton Ritzenberg paid BIG money to buy him from Jock Whitney to go hurdling with Harry Thomson Jones (I think).

He didn`t quite live up to expectations but unless my memory is playing tricks on me, his record over hurdles wasn`t too bad. It would be interesting to see his jumps record.

I remember him easily winning the Cesarewitch under a big weight with Lester up.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ySPyZEDeIsg

Royal Relief won the Nottingham Champion Chase in 1971. It was a new race first run in 1970 when the tearaway Even Keel won it at 4/9 from 2 others by 20 lengths and 'bad'. Even Keel had not long turned 8, but it was his 18th win over obstacles.

Even Keel was expected to follow up in the 1971 race, but Ken Oliver decided to re-route him, and with 2 other non-runners (including Titus Oates), it was reduced to a 3-runner affair, and a virtual match between Royal Relief and the high-class WA Stephenson hurdler, Celtic Gold. The latter never really took to fences though, and having fallen in his previous race, he came down 4 out just as he had joined the 12yo Muir for the lead (he was remounted for 3rd).

The race was lost to the weather in 1972, and won by Tingle Creek in '73 and '74. Both were 2-runner affairs. 1974 was a virtual walkover with SPs of 1/5 and 4/1, but 1973 should have been interesting as his rival was another high class front-runner in Clear Cut - they went off 8/13 and 6/4. Clear Cut had probably never had to go up against anything like the 7yo Tingle Creek though, and he came down at the 2nd fence, being remounted to come home for a share of the prize money.

It would seem the Nottingham exec felt obliged to make some changes to the race, it having attracted just 10 runners in 4 runnings, and in 1975, the race name was unchanged, but was confined to novices, and the distance upped to 2m 6f. It was won by GWR's high class novice Tamalin, ridden by Ron Barry, with his usual jockey JJ O'Neill (who'd won 10 races on him) off with a broken leg. GW did assure reporters afterwards that the horse was still "little John's ride". Tamalin went on to be 2nd in the Sun Alliance Chase at Cheltenham (re-arranged to April) to Pengrail, a horse who hadn't been in the original race that was meant to follow Ten Up's Gold Cup, but the ground was considered too bad to continue the card. Tamalin was 2nd fav for both instances, and in the original he would have had to have gone up against Brown Lad rather than Pengrail.

Some great jumpers mentioned in that post Ged. Celtic Gold was a fav of mine.

I remember Ten Up winning one of the Military races Ged,76 or 77 I think? Ridden by Captain Hodges who was stationed in the barracks opposite me at 47 Light Regt,RA.I was then at 657 Sqn Army Air Corps at McMunn Barracks,Colchester.Seemed the whole Garrison was on and the bookies took a real pasting.

Pf course Harchibald should have won. My abiding memory after the race was of Alistair Down chanting morons, morons at the people heckling carberry after the race St Alistair, the stone thrower

John Cherry won the Long Walk Hurdle at Ascot in 1978 and 1979, then finished second to Derring Rose in 1980, after which he was retired. Those were far and away his best runs over hurdles. He never ran anywhere near his best round Cheltenham.

The Timeform comment on his novice season says that he was ante post third favourite for the Champion Hurdle before he had ever jumped a hurdle in public. He won his first two starts as a novice, but didn't go on after that and ended his first season rated 130 by Timeform.

Some terrific posts on here which keep the memories flooding back.So many of the horses' names are still very familiar it seems impossible that they were racing around 40/50 years ago .

Whilst I certainly remember Hatton Grace (probably from old racing diaries which listed the winners of major races) I have to point out that I don't remember the horse racing. I was born in 1949 the same year he won his first CH !

Quiet Fling was a good horse of Whitney's,won the coronation cup under Lester.

whilst looking at the form of some of those mentioned, I was shocked that kadastrof was running in the mid-90s, seems like only yesterday!! christ this coronavirus is screwing up all concepts of time!!

It's a Kadastrofee.

Good morning glentoby

I am the wrong person to ask about regarding would harchibald had won that champion hurdle (the most incredible race I’ve seen )with John francome on board ,as I was a huge fan of hardy eustace in fact I was meant to go and seem him on April 27 thtaking my hardy eustace hat of I have to admit it wouldn’t have been a negative,poor harchibald had to get up a hill and not only have to pass hardy but brave Inca as well,in a nutshell it’s impossible ever to be sure about the likes of harchibald that’s another reason we love the game.

morning foxy - it's interesting that pat never got the same amount of flak for el gran senor as paul on harchibald, both were similar sorts of ride, personally I always like my fancies to be kicked on at least 1f out on flat or before last hurdle/fence over jumps, if they don't stay or are too rogueish to get home then at least you'll find out

I suppose a different era Gordon, then throw Greville on Dancing Brave into the mix, there were no forums back in the 80's

true but there are enough on here who remember those days - personally I was on Secreto so right outcome!! for a horse which the maestro Vincent O'Brien rated highly, his stud career was very disappointing..of course Greville's ride on Dancing Brave is one of the most painful to recall, but totally different scenario to the other two

Thanks Anorak for the John Cherry hurdles history.

And Ribero. I had forgotten about Quiet Fling a decent horse indeed.

Mr Frisk won at Nottingham on Feb 21 1987

Sabin Du Loir won at Wolves on Nov 24 1986

thanks for all the memories - we'll probably never get jumps back at windsor/nottingham and definitely not wolverhampton but they have seen their share of decent animals over the years, thats for sure..we just need to re-double efforts post-lockdown to ensure that we don't lose any in next few years

FAIRLAWNE CHASE, WINDSOR, 3M

Cell 1	Cell 2
Cell 3	Cell 4

1962  Hedgelands  Josh Gifford  C Mitchell
1963  Certain Justice  T Baldwin  A Neaves
1964  Sir Daniel  W Ree  Peter Cazalet
1965  Anglo  T Norman  Fred Winter
1966  Abandoned   
1967  Abandoned   
1968  Bassnet  A Kilpatrick  David Nicholson
1969  The Laird  Bob Turnell  Jeff King
1970  Specify  D Weeden  Terry Biddlecombe
1971  Into View  Fred Winter  Paul Kelleway
1972  Cardinal Error  Fred Winter  John Francome
1973  Spanish Steps  Edward Courage  Bob Davies
1974  Game Spirit  Fulke Walwyn  Terry Biddlecombe
1975  Bula  Fred Winter  John Francome
1976  Bula  Fred Winter  John Francome
1977  Abandoned   
1978  Abandoned   
1979  Joint Venture  Jim Old  John Francome
1980  Border Incident  Richard Head  John Francome
1981  Abandoned   
1982  Venture To Cognac  Fred Winter  Mr Oliver Sherwood
1983  Abandoned   
1984  Everett  Fulke Walwyn  Stuart Shilston
1985  Abandoned   
1986  Abandoned   
1987  Western Sunset  Tim Forster  Hywel Davies
1988  Rhyme 'N' Reason  David Elsworth  Brendan Powell
1989  Bartre  David Murray Smith  Graham Bradley
1990  Abandoned   
1991  Espy  Charlie Brooks  Peter Scudamore
1992  Toby Tobias  Jenny Pitman  Mark Pitman
1993  Zeta's Lad  John Upson  J R Kavanagh
1994  Black Humour  Charlie Brooks  Graham Bradley
1995  Zeta's Lad  Charlie Brooks  Graham Bradley
1996  Commercial Artist  Nick Gaselee  Andrew Thornton
1997  Equity Player  Roger Curtis  Derek Morris

1962  Hedgelands  Cyril Mitchell  Josh Gifford
1963  Certain Justice  A Neaves  T Baldwin
1964  Sir Daniel  Peter Cazalet  W Ree
1965  Anglo  Fred Winter  T Norman
1966  Abandoned   
1967  Abandoned   
1968  Bassnet  A Kilpatrick  David Nicholson
1969  The Laird  Bob Turnell  Jeff King
1970  Specify  D Weeden  Terry Biddlecombe
1971  Into View  Fred Winter  Paul Kelleway
1972  Cardinal Error  Fred Winter  John Francome
1973  Spanish Steps  Edward Courage  Bob Davies
1974  Game Spirit  Fulke Walwyn  Terry Biddlecombe
1975  Bula  Fred Winter  John Francome
1976  Bula  Fred Winter  John Francome
1977  Abandoned   
1978  Abandoned   
1979  Joint Venture  Jim Old  John Francome
1980  Border Incident  Richard Head  John Francome
1981  Abandoned   
1982  Venture To Cognac  Fred Winter  Mr Oliver Sherwood
1983  Abandoned   
1984  Everett  Fulke Walwyn  Stuart Shilston
1985  Abandoned   
1986  Abandoned   
1987  Western Sunset  Tim Forster  Hywel Davies
1988  Rhyme 'N' Reason  David Elsworth  Brendan Powell
1989  Bartre  David Murray Smith  Graham Bradley
1990  Abandoned   
1991  Espy  Charlie Brooks  Peter Scudamore
1992  Toby Tobias  Jenny Pitman  Mark Pitman
1993  Zeta's Lad  John Upson  J R Kavanagh
1994  Black Humour  Charlie Brooks  Graham Bradley
1995  Zeta's Lad  Charlie Brooks  Graham Bradley
1996  Commercial Artist  Nick Gaselee  Andrew Thornton
1997  Equity Player  Roger Curtis  Derek Morris

target race for fred winter/charlie brooks - some very decent animals there

In their book A Century of Champions, John Randall and Tony Morris rated Bula the sixth-best hurdler at 177, 5 lbs behind the highest rated hurdler, Night Nurse. Persian War, Monksfield, Comedy Of Errors and Istabraq were the only other hurdlers rated higher.[22]

Gordon, it was indeed a top race back then. I remember The Dikler winning and getting disq. but can`t remember the year. It was a long tine ago,

The following are Timeform's Greatest Racehorses:

    
Highest Timeform Annual Ratings (Flat 3yo+)
147    Frankel
145    Sea-Bird
144    Brigadier Gerard, Tudor Minstrel
142    Abernant, Ribot
141    Mill Reef
140    Dancing Brave, Dubai Millennium, Harbinger, Sea The Stars, Shergar, Vaguely Noble
139    Arrogate, Generous, Pappa Fourway, Reference Point


Loved Generous but surprised to see him and Reference Point only 1lb off Dancing Brave/Dubai Millenium/Sea the Stars who I remember very well
    
Highest Timeform Annual Ratings (Jumps - Hurdlers)
182    Night Nurse
180    Istabraq, Monksfield
179    Persian War
178    Comedy of Errors, Le Sauvignon
177    Lanzarote, Limestone Lad
176    Bird's Nest, Bula, Faugheen, Golden Cygnet
175    Baracouda, Gaye Brief, Salmon Spray, Sea Pigeon

Limestone Lad (again a horse I loved particularly his front running style) higher than Faugheen/Golden Cygnet/Sea Pigeon?? What rating do they give Big Bucks as would have thought higher than Baracouda or was it that handicap win that gave Baracouda such a high rating?

    
Highest Timeform Annual Ratings (Jumps - Chasers)
212    Arkle
210    Flyingbolt
192p    Sprinter Sacre
191    Kauto Star, Mill House
187    Desert Orchid
186    Dunkirk
184    Burrough Hill Lad, Moscow Flyer, Long Run
183    Don Cossack, Master Oats
182    Azertyuiop, Best Mate, Captain Christy, Douvan, Carvill's Hill, Kicking King,

And of course the most controversial of all - is it really possible that two horses in the same (relatively small) stable at the same time are 20lbs and 18lbs better Sprinter Sacre, Kauto, Dessie et al?

Generous, was a good horse,not within 7lb  of D.Brave imo..

Where's Nijinsky, Sir Ivor, El Gran Senor and for goodness sake how is Harbinger mentioned in the same breath.

Jummps - Chasers where is the great Denman

G hall

Harbinger is a very difficult horse to assess,as a one of performance I doubt many would compare with his King George.

I have not read the early parts of this but I don't mis those jump courses. Nottingham was the best one of the three as a fair track rather similar to Newbury but the other were very tight and twisting tracks. I had bad experiences at Wolverhampton when a horse I owned lost a shoe in the paddock and had to be withdrawn because they didn't have a blacksmith available while at Windsor, I lost a horse that broke its neck on the approach road because, having fallen in a novice chase, he and another loose horse were able to gallop through an open gate from the course, through the paddock and the course entrance and onto the road. So good riddance from my point of view.

Duke

Did you think denman should have been rated higher than Douvan,master oats and long run?

Sageform

Are you referring to the old Wolverhampton national hunt track or the one that raced around the outside of the aw track ?

Denman did win 2 Hennessy Gold Cups as well as a win and a second in the Gold Cup. Master Oats and Long run were very good but only for one season. I would still rate Kauto Star as superior because of his record at Kempton.

Probably the old one, it was late 1980s. I only went there the one time. In any case not having a blacksmith available was total incompetence as was leaving gates open at Windsor during a race.

Sageform

I didn’t mind Wolverhampton but like you I don’t really miss Windsor,

No Nijinsky is ridiculous,also how is Monksfield 5lbs in front of Sea Pigeon?

The Monksfield who beat Sea Pigeon and Night Nurse in 1978 would have been rated much higher than the Monksfield who finished third to Sea Pigeon and Pollardstown in 1981.

Or, to put it more brutally, beating Night Nurse rates higher than beating Pollardstown.

To be clear, I'm not running down Sea Pigeon. As I said above, I loved the horse. But that's how ratings work.

IF Jonjo hadn't panicked when Kybo fell in 79 it would have been 3 champion hurdles imo.

There's also the 1978 Champion Hurdle. Night Nurse beat Monksfield and Dramatist, with Sea Pigeon only fourth, ahead of the favourite Birds Nest and Beacon Light.

That would have been the strongest hurdle race ever run, and presumably the source of the final Timeform ratings.

I thought beacon light was a certainty for the arkle ,at the time I had never seen anaglogs daughter.

Does anybody know what kybo stands for ?

KEEP YOUR BOWELS OPEN

Well done dambuster

Bob Champion told me that,at a Warners weekend racing break a few years ago.

talking about sea pigeon love to see a ebor c/h winner in 11 weeks time
lets hope so.

stay safe
Ronnie.

Good morning ribero

I can’t really comment on Nijinsky as it was before my time although I obviously know his achievements and have got the video a horse called Nijinsky ,what I can comment on with confidence is that Troy was better than both reference point and generous.

As someone who saw Arkle and Flyingbolt race both in the flesh and on tv it is difficult to find the words to convincingly get across just what monster horses they both were.Whether or not they are correctly rated compared to others who raced in different periods is a moot point although I wouldn't argue with the assessments allocated.  Up until a few years ago I'd always have said that Arkle was the greatest nh racehorse I'd ever seen ,but frankly doubts have crept in and over recent years have wondered if Flyingbolt at his imperious best should be at the top. Part of the joy of racing that lasts a lifetime !

On those ratings
a King George field with

Arkle 12-0
Kauto Star 10-7
Desert Orchid 10-3

I know who I think would have been a well beaten 3rd of those protaginists.

As I have said before I would have more belief in the ranking of Arkle by people who saw him run , if he had taken on his stablemate.

Denman (with his issues) and Kauto Star met in 4 Gold Cups , the best two horse of the 60's and from the same stable were never matched on a race course , so must have been taking on inferior horses.
This happens all the time in the blue blood world of flat racing and it is one of the worst aspects of horse racing.

Dambuster

Can’t remember how I found out but it was relatively recently.

Or for that matter limestone lad 2 lb better than baracouda?

posy is it just possible that the collateral handicap form for both Arkle and Flyingbolt was over rated? I don't doubt that they were lengths ahead of anything else around at that time but it just defies all logic (before and since!) that the two best jumpers of all time were in the same smallish Irish stable over a 3-4 year period. 

There have been times when Dickinson/Henderson/Nicholls/Pipe/Mullins (all with far more horses than Mr Dreaper) could have been said to be dominant but not 20lbs clear of the best to that point and although Night Nurse/Sea Pigeon were also in the same stable, they were beatable, indeed by each other, over a period of years

this could also apply to Baracouda (ref the hcap at Sandown prior to getting beat by Iris's Gift at Cheltenham) because there's no way I would have backed him over either Big Bucks or indeed Inglis Drever

Good morning Gordon hope your well

You mention one there iris’s gift I can’t think of a better performance by a novice hurdler than when he was 2 nd in the stayers hurdle.

Hi foxy,agree re Troy,i like Timeform in general but think plenty in that list is nonsense.

For some people with long memories, I studied a lot of the VDW articles back in the day, and seeing Beacon Light mentioned earlier reminds me of the 1978 Erin Hurdle at Leopardstown.

VDW said that Beacon Light had more or less,no chance. The race was won by Prominent King, with Mr Kildare second.

I could never understand why he ruled Beacon Light out of it, so readily.

I wouldn’t have istabraq up there but didn’t fancy mentioning it on an open forum ribero just in case his legion of fans read it .

Afternoon Foxy - I think there may also be legions of fans of See You Then, Persian War and Sir Ken however Istabraq being irish owned/trained and more recent than the other three, probably means they're more in numbers and more vocal in their support...I'd say Istabraq was better than See You Then, having seen both of them win CH and other races but Persian War/Sir Ken way before my time.

I would agree istabraq was better than see you then ,I don’t think any of them beat much,in istabraqs case I am not convinced he would have won the sun alliance hurdle if the runner up had a reasonable jockey on board.

French holly would be the best horse he beat

At his best I'd put Persian War right at the top. It was a great shame  he was bought by Henry Alper , moved from trainer to trainer and asked to carry huge weights in competitive handicaps. He overcame a number of injuries ; if he'd been looked after by Henderson or Nicholls who knows what more he would have achieved. Another tank of a horse who always gave his best.

Foxy, Nijinsky best racehorse bar none! I had the honour of seeing him make his debut at the Curragh and getting 11/10 to my fiver, a huge bet for a child....

As a triple crown winner I'd rate Nijinsky right at the top....above Frankel.

Considering everything that went wrong for him, i.e.ringworm etc, he should have retired unbeaten, but it wasn't to be. A Machine of a horse. Again I totally agree Posy. Frankel would have been beaten 5 to 6 lts by Nijinsky over 12 furs...

Interesting to hear Vincent Rossiter saying that Lester rated Sir Ivor ahead of Nijinsky

G.Hall I read that in the I.Fiend at the weekend and was a little taken aback.

Yes me to workrider

National Spirit won on his reappearance at Windsor in 1946.
He went on to win that seasons Champion hurdle beating the favourite Le Paillon, six months later Le Paillon
won the Arc de Triomphe.

Does anybody remember Provideo and Timeless Times both precocious 2 year olds who broke the most wins in a season records

Yes duke, and Sir Mark`s Spindrifter too.

and Nagwa, another prolific two-year-old trained by Barry Hills.

I remember Provideo eaqualled the record of 16 wins set by The Bard in the 19th Century and Bill O`Gorman sent him to run at Hollywood Park when the season had ended in a failed attempt to break the record. He always regretted sending him there.

Chaplins Club , 9 handicap wins between 16 July and 1st October.


Provideo , Timeform horse of the year in 1984.

His place in the 2 year old Free Handicap with other notable names

Kala Dance 9-7 (top rated)
Law Society 9-6
Triptych 9-5
Oh So Sharp 9-0
Al Bahathri 8-13
Phardante 8-13
Shadeed 8-13
Bella Colora 8-12
Petoski 8-11
Provideo 8-9

A good list ,King George winner,oaks winner,st leger winner ,dual champion stakes winner,judmonte winner,Irish champion stakes winner ,Irish 1000 Guineas winner;1 000 Guineas winner,2000 Guineas winner,oaks runner up,king George runner up ,derby runner up,1000 Guineas runner up,st leger runner up,

Chaplins Club...9 handicaps in 10/11 weeks ! Do you know what mark his first win was off and also the 9th ?

As a 12 yo he won at Redcar of 45

First win off 66 at Ripon July 16 1988
Ninth win off 87 at Haydock October 1 1988

Thank you both.

Just looked at his record on Racing Post ;seemed to be winning quite a few times on a 76 rating...3rd to 7th wins all off that rating within the space of two weeks ! Talk about thriving on racing.

not possible these days of course with the amendment to hcap rules even if some of the wins are in conditionals races

Just looking at the form book for the original courses

Little Polveir won 5 December 1987 at Nottingham then unseated at the 1988 Grand National which was won by Rhyme n' Reason who had won at Windsor 20 February 1988

Celtic Shot won the New Years Day Hurdle at Windsor then went onto win the Champion Hurdle 1988

And to remind those who have forgotten/dont know Little Polveir won the Grand National in 1989

Different era when decent jumpers ran at the lesser tracks.

I remember when one used to get the holiday money at Devon & Exeter when jump racing took place on hard ground.

Two that I fondly remember being Mighty Marine and Cabin Boy, a rare jumper for Major Hern that was owned by his wife Shelagh.