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Deltâ
13 Jan 20 18:04
Joined:
Date Joined: 12 Mar 02
| Topic/replies: 62,895 | Blogger: Deltâ's blog
Betfair Horse Racing 13 Jan 20 18:00 
Due to Live Video suppliers dropping support for Flash, from tomorrow the below tracks will experience an increase in Latency. We hope to find a lower latency alternative ASAP.

ATR
ALBANY, ALBURY, ASCOT, BALLINA, BATHURST, BEAUDESERT, BENDIGO, BUNBURY, CAIRNS, CANTERBURY, CHEPSTOW, COFFS HARBOUR, COROWA, CRANBOURNE, DALBY, DEVONPORT, DONCASTER, DOOMBEN, DUBBO, EAGLE FARM, ECHUCA, ESPERANCE, FAKENHAM, FFOS LAS, FLEMINGTON, FONTWELL, GATTON, GERALDTON, GOLD COAST, GOSFORD, GOULBURN, GUNNEDAH, HEREFORD, KEMBLA GRANGE, KEMPSEY, KILCOY, LAUNCESTON, LINGFIELD, MOONEE VALLEY, MORUYA, MOUNT BARKER, MUDGEE, MURWILLUMBAH, MUSWELLBROOK, NARROGIN, NEWCASTLE, NOWRA, PINJARRA, PLUMPTON, RANDWICK, ROCKHAMPTON, SAPPHIRE COAST, SCONE, SEDGEFIELD, SOUTHWELL, STONY CREEK, SUNSHINE COAST, TAMWORTH, TAREE, TOOWOOMBA, TOWNSVILLE, UTTOXETER, WAGGA, WARRNAMBOOL, WARWICK, WARWICK FARM, WOLVERHAMPTON, WYONG
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Report RacingLuck January 14, 2020 2:36 PM GMT
Not much to be got from donny so far Plain

Horse Racing: £334.19  Total P&L:  £334.19

Horse Racing    Showing 1 - 7 of 7 markets
Market    Start time    Settled date    Profit/loss (£)
Horse Racing / Fairy 14th Jan : 2m4f Mares Mdn Hrd    14-Jan-20 14:20    14-Jan-20 14:27    93.18
Horse Racing / Donc 14th Jan : 2m4f Beg Chs    14-Jan-20 14:10    14-Jan-20 14:16    2.45
Horse Racing / Fairy 14th Jan : 2m Hrd    14-Jan-20 13:45    14-Jan-20 13:52    22.05
Horse Racing / Donc 14th Jan : 2m5f Mdn Hrd    14-Jan-20 13:35    14-Jan-20 13:44    3.28
Horse Racing / Fairy 14th Jan : 2m5f Hcap Chs    14-Jan-20 13:15    14-Jan-20 13:24    174.46
Horse Racing / Donc 14th Jan : 3m Cond Hcap Hrd    14-Jan-20 13:05    14-Jan-20 13:16    19.11
Horse Racing / Fairy 14th Jan : 2m Beg Chs    14-Jan-20 12:45    14-Jan-20 12:52    19.66
Report commander January 14, 2020 2:47 PM GMT
Extel technology. I can't get any picture on the BF site.
Report geoff m January 14, 2020 2:47 PM GMT
backing /laying or trading racing??
Report Willie Shafter. January 14, 2020 2:55 PM GMT
if you got £19 8 secs behind your the best there is.
Report RacingLuck January 14, 2020 3:08 PM GMT
id be mostly a layer geoff
Report RacingLuck January 14, 2020 3:08 PM GMT
thats coz i am the best willie Cool
Report Willie Shafter. January 14, 2020 3:09 PM GMT
not if you take 2 ire races away Laugh
Report RacingLuck January 14, 2020 3:11 PM GMT
lol Laugh
Report duncan idaho January 14, 2020 3:17 PM GMT
no more Dubbo or Scone Cry

we're Doombened  Sad
Report Deltâ January 14, 2020 3:24 PM GMT
Live = scratch
Facetimed + 0.5
ATR + 6.0
BLV + 12.0
Report system99 January 14, 2020 3:31 PM GMT

Jan 14, 2020 -- 7:56AM, geoff m wrote:


same company what did yer expect


obv cos nothing peculiar ever happens in the racing world and all the firms are as straight as they come!!! Crazy

Report flushgordon1 January 14, 2020 3:51 PM GMT
And sportsbook won't take a bet ,no multiples, basically it's a fecking shamles and if daq had more liquidity no coont would be here.
Report sparrow January 14, 2020 3:51 PM GMT
I see the original betfair posting has now been pinned and is accepting responses.
Report Writz January 14, 2020 3:56 PM GMT
I can’t get any pictures now not that they are needed being so slow but what a shambles it has become to cap it all hit the wrong horse for a faller today so the whole day has cost me 600 wish I hadn’t bothered but at least I’ve made someone happy :(
Report Willie Shafter. January 14, 2020 4:01 PM GMT
you trying to lay fallers on slow pics?
Report howard January 14, 2020 4:10 PM GMT
Sounds like one of Jim's mates.
Report RacingLuck January 14, 2020 4:11 PM GMT
very hard to lay fallers unless you are at the track Grin
Report Writz January 14, 2020 4:11 PM GMT
No mate came a cropper first race in Ireland schoolboy error these things happen every now and then must concentrate in what I’m doing lol but most of my profit over the last two weeks gone no chance of getting them back with betfair messing about :(
Report piston January 14, 2020 4:14 PM GMT
when I was at work we had a plaque up in office that said Customer Is King......completely different to BF and their Customer Services as I wonder what they have up on office wall....I am really surprised that they haven't removed Forum from their web page or blamed it on our IT which is the normal excuse
I am also BF shareholder but what they are doing at the moment means I need to get my share holding out of BF ASAP

At least by having a 50p bet on B365 I can watch the race about 5 seconds ahead of BF Live video but why should I have to do that...wot a shambles
Report Writz January 14, 2020 4:17 PM GMT
The commission they charge us punters should have the fastest pictures you can get they all need a kick up the arse and get there house in order come on BF move
Report Writz January 14, 2020 4:17 PM GMT
The commission they charge us punters should have the fastest pictures you can get they all need a kick up the arse and get there house in order come on BF move
Report Darlo Bantam January 14, 2020 5:23 PM GMT
This is a bigger issue than Betfair though. Streams from other providers, presumably IMG, have slowed since they got rid of flash last year. You can see the massive delay in the market compared to the streams; don't know who is in charge of coming up with a solution but the fact they haven't in the months they've had is scandalous.

You can't have a true bet in-running on other sports on what is happening because of the delay. That delay in horse racing affects everything because there's no hiding place or pauses like in other sports.
Report Darlo Bantam January 14, 2020 5:25 PM GMT
Also looks like the US streams are even slower than they were before.
Report GoBallistic January 14, 2020 5:46 PM GMT
Almost 5 years since the last Forum Chat

Everything must be fine, just fine
Report JetLoneStar January 14, 2020 6:09 PM GMT
What an absolute mess, coming from someone who during winter bets only on AW tracks im more than a little worried - What are my alternatives? **** / 265?
Report Deltâ January 14, 2020 6:11 PM GMT
a job
Report JetLoneStar January 14, 2020 6:14 PM GMT
wow Sad
Report pizzaro January 14, 2020 6:40 PM GMT
betfair are still taking bets when races are finished,surely this should be stopped, deception
Report mymumsfinethankyou January 14, 2020 6:59 PM GMT
im very happy with the situation  betfair ,,you are doing a fantastic job,,,Happy
Report kemo sabe January 14, 2020 7:55 PM GMT
your right once again mumms equal shares for all , level playing fields should only be allowed ,  anything less is cheating i mo humble opinion
Report ruchaczzpodhala January 14, 2020 8:03 PM GMT
hqhaha hahahahahah great news :D tennis inpaly with 8sec delay compared to flash is so good to trading :D I hope all inplay markets will be dead because of this latency :D


Jebac was kurwy
Report JetLoneStar January 14, 2020 8:09 PM GMT
Good for some I guess, bit of a killer for at home in running players, gonna have to go back to prerace ffs
Report JetLoneStar January 14, 2020 8:12 PM GMT
Also not entirely sure why theyre getting rid of flash in January when it doesnt become obselete until December. Theyre basically throwing away a financial stream for seemingly no benefit, my only hope is that I/R still generates enough attention / money for SOMEONE betfair or not to find a solution.
Report hulk23 January 14, 2020 8:16 PM GMT
overheard a couple of guys on the metro saying shafters going to have to get a life ...
Report Rico-Dangleflaps January 14, 2020 8:43 PM GMT
eammon andrews? bout time ino
Report Jack Bauer '24' January 14, 2020 8:48 PM GMT
This should get sorted out quite soon, there doesn't seem to be any extra delay on US racing.
Report jamee1 January 14, 2020 8:52 PM GMT

Jan 14, 2020 -- 4:12AM, MinnieLAI wrote:


Fear NOT, the future is here ....http://www.totalperformancedata.com/http://businessofbetting.libsyn.com/ep-108-will-duff-gordon


TPD won't solve anything. Most of the time it will be fine but every now and again you'll hit a data misread or package drop or there will be a horse thrown out in a stewards and you face into a massive loss.

Report JetLoneStar January 14, 2020 8:54 PM GMT
I wonder how horseracing in running fares against tennis? I'd assume it brings more commission, I cant see them not getting some kind of solution in the coming weeks. Or at the very least some other site will.
Report ruchaczzpodhala January 14, 2020 8:58 PM GMT
They change flash to hls in the end of august, it's 6 months now and tennis is still in hls. Nothing seems to be done in this case, I hope massive drop of liquidity in horse ip markets will make them to find soultion faster and it will affect horses and tennis
Report Writz January 14, 2020 9:04 PM GMT
Hopefully faster than before but I very much doubt it what a shambles
Report Writz January 14, 2020 9:05 PM GMT
Hopefully faster than before but I very much doubt it what a shambles
Report KIMBLE January 14, 2020 10:19 PM GMT
the issue is the technology, there is no faster version of flash, the industry standard now will be hls and their packets of data stream much slower. So unless someone knows a silicon valley nerd with an interest in live sports (truly live, not like sky, etc), we are stuck with this for the foreseeable future :(
Report Darlo Bantam January 14, 2020 11:23 PM GMT

Jan 14, 2020 -- 2:12PM, JetLoneStar wrote:


Also not entirely sure why theyre getting rid of flash in January when it doesnt become obselete until December. Theyre basically throwing away a financial stream for seemingly no benefit, my only hope is that I/R still generates enough attention / money for SOMEONE betfair or not to find a solution.


Yes. I wondered this too. End date isn't until the end of the year, so why throw their toys out of the pram and make these changes now?

Report MinnieLAI January 14, 2020 11:51 PM GMT

Jan 14, 2020 -- 2:52PM, jamee1 wrote:


Jan 14, 2020 -- 10:12AM, MinnieLAI wrote:Fear NOT, the future is here ....http://www.totalperformancedata.com/http://businessofbetting.libsyn.com/... won't solve anything. Most of the time it will be fine but every now and again you'll hit a data misread or package drop or there will be a horse thrown out in a stewards and you face into a massive loss.


I deliberately included this as a consideration outside of the box as I know two home players who subscribe to this service, one of which does extremely well, and is indeed on this forum, and a friend of mine.  But as your aware fast pix alone is only a small part of in-play gambling, trading Horse Racing.

Report elise January 15, 2020 9:03 AM GMT
couple of things

someone asking above why bf have lost flash feeds and daq not

I was watching SA racing pre UK yesterday, they did the first race with flash then turned it off, to me it was a conscious decision from BF rather than a third party effect

I've asked daq for some info re how long they can keep it going and whether they've got any leeway on turning it up a notch (previously I think they were about 1/2 sec behind bf). I'll let you know if I get a reply
Report ItsMeSwaddle January 15, 2020 9:04 AM GMT
May well work but if it doesn’t or you get impatient, I’ve had a couple of positive experiences ringing Daq
Report elise January 15, 2020 9:06 AM GMT
never had an issue, I guess it may depend on how much money you stick through them
Report dustybin January 15, 2020 9:26 AM GMT
I think it was longbridge on the other thread who provided a link regarding the ending of flash.
I cant verify it but it seems credible enough. It suggests Thursday (16th) is when flash gets pulled.

Its funny when you think all those daq accounts needing to get reactivated...for a day or two while users watch the LV to use BF.
Then radio silence.
Report dustybin January 15, 2020 9:28 AM GMT
longbridge • January 14, 2020 5:52 PM GMT
Don't get too excited - the 'daq will maybe be an option for fast pics tomorrow (Weds) and then I strongly suspect they will be on the same slow pics as here.

Rechecking Akamai's End of Life date for delivering Flash video streams, the decommissioning date is Thursday:

https://community.akamai.com/customers/s/article/Media-Retirement-Program-Update?language=en_US
Report elise January 15, 2020 9:29 AM GMT
ta dusty
Report dustybin January 15, 2020 9:31 AM GMT
Its longbridge's efforts not mine, thank him.
Report elise January 15, 2020 9:35 AM GMT
as in reposting
Report elise January 15, 2020 9:36 AM GMT
hadn't read that bit
Report Poppydog. January 15, 2020 9:47 AM GMT
International live video horse races seem to have gone the same way.

Such a shame
Report longbridge January 15, 2020 11:24 AM GMT
Thanks dustybin.
Report Latalomne January 15, 2020 12:22 PM GMT
Its funny when you think all those daq accounts needing to get reactivated...for a day or two while users watch the LV to use BF.
Then radio silence.

Funnily enough, I resurrected mine just before Xmas for the darts.  0% comms on a lot of "minority interest" sports.  It was fine for the darts.  Snooker is thinner on the ground.

Re the "no faster solution" existing, was it not the BBC during the last world cup that claimed to have found a way to alleviate the delay altogether?
Report dustybin January 15, 2020 12:36 PM GMT
I read about that Latalomne, but I think they also said they were waiting on a private company to initiate it as they had no justification for it....or something like that.

I also saw Amazon say they were looking at a no delay product potentially for football rights. That depends on whether the comit to football ofc, but also has no real bearing on where the technology would be available to others....or for that matter whether bf's interests extends further than their own pocket (which given the coin clipping witnessed recently I doubt very much)
Report dustybin January 15, 2020 12:41 PM GMT
For those 2 queens awards for innovation from way back bf are now at the mercy of third parties to cater for their own product.
Flash gets pulled and where does it leave bf's IR product?
Report DOUBLED January 15, 2020 12:45 PM GMT
embarrassing stuff from Paddy Power
Report geoff m January 15, 2020 12:54 PM GMT
blv Wolves about 3 secs behind atr HERELaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaughLaugh
Report JetLoneStar January 15, 2020 12:54 PM GMT
Here we go, 60 seconds til my first taste of this **** :D
Report JetLoneStar January 15, 2020 1:02 PM GMT
Jesus christ, i need a cigarette
Report dustybin January 15, 2020 1:04 PM GMT
Think we will rapidly see the law of diminishing returns once daq's product slows
In turn most of the IR clients will stop on ATR tracks....some will also stop RTV ones as they wont see it worthwile.
In turn those bot users wont have their bts matched IR and restrict their betting.

If bf think the rot wont set in and do nothing I think they will be mistaken.
Report doorman99 January 15, 2020 1:04 PM GMT
Just layed Dark Crystal on daq 4.6 for 15, never matched yet says last price matched 3.6, whats occurred please?
Report john92 January 15, 2020 1:06 PM GMT
What's the requirements for 3 6 5 live video? A 50p bet? I suppose most are restricted below that though
Report dustybin January 15, 2020 1:07 PM GMT
Dont touch it, I tried yesterday its about level with bf's
Plus they made it difficult again to withdraw money
Report JetLoneStar January 15, 2020 1:07 PM GMT
I refuse to believe that they wont find a way around this - the wording from their announcement for horseracing compared to what they put in the tennis section is slightly promising, as they more or less tol them to suck it up as opposed to 'working on a fix asap' and 'we will have it in the customers hands asap'.

Maybe I just dont want to face the fact that my profits are about to be slashed in half at the very least Angry
Report MayoMan January 15, 2020 1:09 PM GMT
I wonder if the plan with paddy power is to slowly kill in running
Report john92 January 15, 2020 1:09 PM GMT
Cheers dusty. Daq's fiver is steep and they banned me from live video before when I was trading.
Report Willie Shafter. January 15, 2020 1:13 PM GMT
Horse Racing: £206.23  Total P&L:  £206.23

Horse Racing > Wolv 15th Jan : 1m1f Hcap    Showing 1 - 2 of 2 Selections
Selection    Odds    Stake(£)    Bid type    Placed    Profit/loss(£)
Adamaris    *    321.33    45.00    Lay         45.00
Mabre    *    110.52    70.18    Lay         70.18
*Average odds: On  Off    Back subtotal:    0.00
Lay subtotal:    115.18
Market subtotal:    115.18
Commission @ 2%:    2.30
Net Market Total:    112.88



goldmine at wolves..Mischief
Report Wicklow January 15, 2020 1:14 PM GMT
I wouldnt get your hopes up JLS - I cant see BF giving a hoot about what they lose from the home players for ATr tracks. Look whats getting matched inrunning now its a fraction of what it was years ago. I see this rolling on for a long time and doubt we'll ever have pics as they are now (2.5-3 secs behind live)

I hope im wrong but i cant see BF doing anything to help a few users when we all know they are going to benefit more with less competition for their own bots.
Report dustybin January 15, 2020 1:18 PM GMT
How wicklow?
Fewer matched bets IR will mean all those bots that dont require visuals will have more unmatched bets
BF take zero risk, so who will be taking the risk?
Report JetLoneStar January 15, 2020 1:24 PM GMT
Never checked before but would guess there'd be around 30k per race traded in running across win and place so 200k per atr meeting, maybe 2.5 mil per week?
Report Twoboyz January 15, 2020 1:33 PM GMT
When i pressed live video half way through it was behind the telly ?
Report Wicklow January 15, 2020 1:40 PM GMT
I agree with you Dusty but this is BF - when is the last time they done something to benefit the home/core users?
Report DIE LINKE January 15, 2020 1:45 PM GMT
Surely it would be easier for lv in-running players to just transfer the money to willie's bank account!
Report Wesdag January 15, 2020 1:48 PM GMT
tbf, if people at home stop playing due to the increased delay, track players will just be playing v each other therefore not good for them either
Report dustybin January 15, 2020 1:51 PM GMT
They will be in the manager's office soon enough trying to explain why they should be allowed to pay less for the box
Report dave1357 January 15, 2020 1:53 PM GMT
There isn't any communication on the video page about the increased delay, so there might be a decent number of casual occasional players getting completely rinsed. If BF was a financial services company they would be liable for these losses due to this oversight.
Report Wicklow January 15, 2020 1:55 PM GMT
How much inrunning is from home users? who knows the real figure but im guessing it be 10/20/30%?? Pre betters who leave cover lays/backs up will still continue to do the same. Track players/facetimers or satellite feeds will still play as per norm.

For the commission that BF will lose out on a weekly basis probably wont be that much and im sure they wont work too hard to find a suitable replacement.
Report JetLoneStar January 15, 2020 1:55 PM GMT
Looking at the in running markets at Wolves today, theres definately quite a few players unaware of the delay Laugh not going to last long thoughScared
Report dave1357 January 15, 2020 1:56 PM GMT
Another irony is that BF just signed a flat rate contract for the atr pictures, previously it depended on the number of viewers, so there isn't even any incentive for providers to speed up pictures.
Report dustybin January 15, 2020 1:59 PM GMT
While there is a source in the daq then figures arnt really comparable to how things are likely to regress.
Once that door closes then the rot sets in.
Report Tiger Tiger January 15, 2020 2:08 PM GMT
Not sure if its relevant to the thread but two days ago I backed Billyfairplay at Wolves and left an in running lay off price of 1.12, in running my screen went all green and the 1.12 was matched - but - at the time the screen went all green I couldn't see any price lower than 2.02 for Billfairplay, it was a full four seconds or so before the price dropped, only briefly, then drifted quickly??
Report DOUBLED January 15, 2020 2:16 PM GMT
They say under their video "typically 2-5 seconds behind live" totally inaccurate now for ATR tracks
Report Willie Shafter. January 15, 2020 2:20 PM GMT
Wesdag 15 Jan 20 13:48 
tbf, if people at home stop playing due to the increased delay, track players will just be playing v each other therefore not good for them either

pmsl..everyone is simply playing against the bot.
Report Willie Shafter. January 15, 2020 2:23 PM GMT
Horse Racing > : 2m4f Mares Mdn Hrd > Moyode Gold    Showing  1 - 20 of 20 Bets
Selection        Odds    Stake
(£)    Liability
(£)    Bid type    Placed    Matched (GMT)    Profit/loss
(£)
Moyode Gold         1.43    2.00         Back    14-Jan-20 14:26    14-Jan-20 14:26    0.86
Moyode Gold         1.52    14.54         Back    14-Jan-20 14:26    14-Jan-20 14:26    7.56
Moyode Gold         1.31    12.44         Back    14-Jan-20 14:26    14-Jan-20 14:26    3.86
Moyode Gold         1.33    0.20         Back    14-Jan-20 14:26    14-Jan-20 14:26    0.07
Moyode Gold         1.33    6.69         Back    14-Jan-20 14:26    14-Jan-20 14:26    2.21
Moyode Gold         1.33    11.75         Back    14-Jan-20 14:26    14-Jan-20 14:26    3.88
Moyode Gold         1.45    5.45         Back    14-Jan-20 14:26    14-Jan-20 14:26    2.45
Moyode Gold         1.4    3.57         Back    14-Jan-20 14:26    14-Jan-20 14:26    1.43
Moyode Gold         1.5    2.00         Back    14-Jan-20 14:26    14-Jan-20 14:26    1.00
Moyode Gold         1.26    4.34         Back    14-Jan-20 14:26    14-Jan-20 14:26    1.13
Moyode Gold         1.27    4.17         Back    14-Jan-20 14:26    14-Jan-20 14:26    1.13
Moyode Gold         1.32    8.62         Back    14-Jan-20 14:26    14-Jan-20 14:26    2.76
Moyode Gold         1.4    2.00         Back    14-Jan-20 14:26    14-Jan-20 14:26    0.80
Moyode Gold         1.4    2.00         Back    14-Jan-20 14:26    14-Jan-20 14:26    0.80
Moyode Gold         1.4    2.00         Back    14-Jan-20 14:26    14-Jan-20 14:26    0.80
Moyode Gold         1.36    3.18         Back    14-Jan-20 14:26    14-Jan-20 14:26    1.14
Moyode Gold         1.43    2.71         Back    14-Jan-20 14:26    14-Jan-20 14:26    1.17
Moyode Gold         1.34    2.94         Back    14-Jan-20 14:26    14-Jan-20 14:26    1.00
Moyode Gold         1.25    3.40         Back    14-Jan-20 14:26    14-Jan-20 14:26    0.85
Moyode Gold         1.5    6.00         Back    14-Jan-20 14:26    14-Jan-20 14:26    3.00

that is a bet i had yest..£100 when landed over 2 out 2L down...this is what happens when you're palying a robot...1.5 > 1.25 for £100 LaughLaughLaughLaugh
Report Wesdag January 15, 2020 2:26 PM GMT

Jan 15, 2020 -- 8:20AM, Willie Shafter. wrote:


Wesdag 15 Jan 20 13:48  tbf, if people at home stop playing due to the increased delay, track players will just be playing v each other therefore not good for them eitherpmsl..everyone is simply playing against the bot.


So who's funding the "bot"?

Report Willie Shafter. January 15, 2020 2:27 PM GMT
dont need funding..it cant lose..
Report longbridge January 15, 2020 2:27 PM GMT
Whose robot (I know you have made reference to BF bots before) do you think it is?

And what is driving it?  Weight of money?  That TPD thing that has GPS data is not at many courses but maybe that?
Report Wesdag January 15, 2020 2:29 PM GMT
oh, so there's no customer money ir just bf's bot doing all the matching?
Report Willie Shafter. January 15, 2020 2:29 PM GMT
look at my bets from yest...the bot gives you what its happy to give you to leave themselves all green...it isnt in running gambling anmymore..its simply..'beat the system' or perish.  which most now are.
Report Willie Shafter. January 15, 2020 2:31 PM GMT
Wesdag 15 Jan 20 14:29 
oh, so there's no customer money ir just bf's bot doing all the matching?

of course,but the bf bot keeps the bonnie marbles and hands out the tarnished ones..do i really need to explian?
Report Willie Shafter. January 15, 2020 2:32 PM GMT
lain*
Report dustybin January 15, 2020 2:36 PM GMT
What it offers is still leveraged against the money others care to risk
Might look 5hit pennies and all but it will be even less when nobody down stream is encouraged enough to take their portion of risk. Bf wont be taking their place thats for sure, all they do is advertise for more idiots....just the sell got even more difficult.
Report Wesdag January 15, 2020 2:39 PM GMT
thanks dusty, that's point I was getting at
Report Wesdag January 15, 2020 2:39 PM GMT
*the point
Report Willie Shafter. January 15, 2020 2:44 PM GMT
man V bot

low calories.
Report tutan January 15, 2020 3:15 PM GMT
"The man who destroyed his multimillion dollar company in 10 seconds."

Some of you might remember this story ,if not look it up .

When you provide C-rap to your customer base ,this is what could happen.
Report longbridge January 15, 2020 3:32 PM GMT
@tutan

I have heard him as an after-dinner speaker - he is very entertaining.
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