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mukdahan
01 Jun 19 17:40
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Date Joined: 12 Feb 02
| Topic/replies: 610 | Blogger: mukdahan's blog
Without a doubt Moore was on the best horse all three group one this meeting , just mistimed his run on all three really poor effort.
Pause Switch to Standard View Has a jockey ever messed up three...
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Report FELTFAIR June 1, 2019 8:07 PM BST
Nonsense.
Report granitjack June 1, 2019 8:12 PM BST
I’m sure if you count them up he’s cocked up more than 3 in a row lol.
Report Willie Shafter. June 1, 2019 8:24 PM BST
rampton escapee
Report granitjack June 1, 2019 8:32 PM BST
Says the man who is a psychiatrist’s dream with numerous usernames and personas on here lol Blush
Report Willie Shafter. June 1, 2019 8:34 PM BST
no need to disseminate.
Report granitjack June 1, 2019 8:56 PM BST
Lol Excited
Report Deptford June 1, 2019 9:59 PM BST
He is the most over rated jockey ever, no idea how to change when things not going to plan, no tactical nous, in fact just bang average
Report shiny new shoes please June 1, 2019 10:06 PM BST
Bastardo  . Bastardo. Today's will improve.
Report granitjack June 1, 2019 10:12 PM BST
Agreed deptford. To be honest if the pundits didn’t kiss his a55 and tell us how wonderful he is and how he’s the ‘world’s best jockey’ I wouldn’t criticise him so much.....he is just an average joe end of. He doesn’t deserve being commented on any more than that. He’s nowhere near the best jockey in this country let alone the world. He never has been any good either. Dettori and Fallon in recent times are streets ahead of him let alone some of the legends. And the likes of O Murphy, SDS and Doyle are in a different league to him entirely now. Even Donaccha is miles better than him in fact at Ballydoyle!
Report tonkability June 1, 2019 10:16 PM BST
I think you will find the hos is overrated when you get so many horses as close as that at the finish you usually find theres nothing special about the race
Report Deptford June 1, 2019 10:20 PM BST
The media are a bunch of cowards, every single one of them, not one of the have a pair of balls, too scared to get off the gravy train, they make me sick, they should all be sent White feathers, like Harry faversham In The Four Feathers, if any of you media are on here, answer to me why you never ask any questions when he rides a shocker
Report Vubiant June 1, 2019 10:32 PM BST
If I was on a gravy train I'd be loath to disembark prematurely tbphai.Laugh Pretty much everyone on here would be of like mind.Grin
It's easy to be a courageous moralist on the sidelines.
Report TOP3MAN June 1, 2019 10:37 PM BST
Ryan had a shocker over the 2 days
Report Ramruma June 1, 2019 11:08 PM BST
Ryan should have looked at the weather forecast before choosing Sir Dragonet.
Report asparagus June 2, 2019 7:36 PM BST
Moore rode brilliantly. Gave each horse every chance of winning and the horses let him down. Of course the mug punters on here want someone else to blame when they lose but it really has got a bit pathetic now.
Report granitjack June 2, 2019 7:41 PM BST
^^ one of the most ridiculous comments on this forum ever ^^ ‘Moore ride brilliantly’....what planet are you on? Even his biggest defenders on here wouldn’t come out with a comment so ridiculous that he rode ‘brilliantly’!!!!
Report acey deucy June 2, 2019 7:48 PM BST
asparagus knows the game, the rest of you mugs are clueless imho.
Report Deptford June 2, 2019 8:15 PM BST
Mrs Moore ^
Report chavman June 2, 2019 8:21 PM BST
asparagus there was a day when moore rode and you felt ypou had a 2 length advantage before the stalls opened.sadly no longer.

as for your claim about the moore detractors/;myself and many others feel he doesnt deserve the accolades awarded to him.
Report impossible123 June 2, 2019 8:39 PM BST
If one had been backing Moore on AOB inmates at Epsom this week one would be a lot poorer having being robbed on shorter prices for his mounts and mistaking the finishing posts. Anyone still unconvinced Royal Ascot beckons soon, and the proof is in the eating, as the saying goes; Dettori will whip his behind (again).
Report RothmanMike June 2, 2019 8:45 PM BST
Does anyone really believe he has the choice of which of the O'Brien's horses he rides .
Report acey deucy June 2, 2019 8:47 PM BST
Every single time he is on the market leader so what are you saying Rothman?
Report RothmanMike June 2, 2019 8:49 PM BST
It was a question requiring an answer, not another question.
Report unclepuncle June 2, 2019 8:49 PM BST
Should definitely have won on Kew Gardens but not sure he did that much wrong in the Oaks or Derby.
Report RothmanMike June 2, 2019 8:52 PM BST
If you believe that Michael Tabor bets the shortest of O'Briens horses in selected races, you are very naive.
Report acey deucy June 2, 2019 8:52 PM BST
Should definitely have won on Kew Gardens?....CrazyCrazy
Report mrcombustible June 2, 2019 9:51 PM BST
He did not ride brilliantly all weekend. I think the Oaks was the one that got away
Report BornToWin June 2, 2019 9:57 PM BST
His positioning in races is generally not good.

He gets off with it a lot due to being on the best one. When he is not he is often left looking like a mug.

Frankie has been immense throughout his stellar career in the big ones, very rarely gets it wrong.
Report impossible123 June 2, 2019 10:31 PM BST
Moore on Pink Dogwood in the Oaks was awful: Moore was at the back, and on the outside eg giving almost 9l to Dettori who was on the rails; coming round all the others and taking it up with 2f to go was ill-judged, and solely responsible for the filly's defeat who was having her 1st run over 12f. I bet whoever rides her in the Irish Oaks will never repeat that tactic again or ever.

Also, I remembered clearly Tabor the owner of Roly Poly the filly who'd just won the Falmouth from the front when asked if he'd backed her said yes because Moore told him he'd ride the filly from the front unlike in all her previous races.
Report impossible123 June 2, 2019 10:50 PM BST
In 2016 The Gurhka (Royal Ascot); Order of St George and Seventh Heaven (Ascot Champions Day) - all Gp 1 races.
Report ReaseHeath June 2, 2019 11:11 PM BST
Aidan O'Brien, in his interview with Racing TV, stated that Moore was close to choosing Anthony Van Dyck but implied that he almost felt obliged to pick Sir Dragonet once 'the lads' had made the decision to supplement him (not a verbatim quote but the gist of what he said).

I can sort of see that - it would've undermined the decision to supplement Sir Dragonet if he'd picked one of the others - Coolmore/Ballydoyle probably no different to any other large organisation in that decision making is sometimes as much down to political considerations as merit.

It should n't be forgotten that Donnacha rode Hermosa in all her work prior to the 1,000 Guineas and presumably could've ridden her in the race but chose to ride Iridessa for his brother (understandably on racecourse form). I knoww we all know this but still best to alomst ignore the jockey bookings when they're mob handed.

With regards to Moore's riding, I would n't be his fiercest cricket but the ride on Pink Dogwood would n't be his finest hour - elite sport is unrelenting, his stable have won 3 of the 4 English classics and he has n't been on any of them - no matter how tough you are mentally the pressures must affect your judgment and confidence at certain points - he probably went a tad too soon on Pink Dogwood as a result.
Report ReaseHeath June 2, 2019 11:12 PM BST
^ fiercest critic ffs
Report johnslad June 2, 2019 11:18 PM BST
Sir Michael is in good form but Ryan is still building a good pension
Report asparagus June 3, 2019 9:19 AM BST
It's pretty simple.

1. Coronation Cup. Moore rides beautifully. He's on a very strong stayer that takes a while to wind up. You would be totally wrong to ride on the inside and wait for gaps on this type of horse so he rides two wide around tattenham corner so that he can swing slightly wide into the straight as horses so often do at Epsom to get a clear run particularly if you are on a horse that comes with a long run. He comes with the run and times it perfectly on a strong stayer and pulls clear of most of the field but to everyones surprise Defoe produces a lifetime best after two slightly below par performances so far this season, quickens up very well and Kew Gardens is quite clearly beaten fair and square on the day.

2. The Oaks. Moore rides a similar race. There is a slight difference in that Pink Dogwood was having her first run over the trip. However, everything about her breeding (full sister to Latrobe) suggests she will stay strongly. It's very easy to say with hindsight that on the day the horse didn't stay as well as others (the winner, the 3rd,  plus others saw  the race out much stronger than Pink Dogwood) and he might have held on to her longer but he can only do what's right at the time. In any case it's hard to believe that Pnk Dogwood would have got past Annapurna if he had let that one get first run as Annapurna was clearly well on top at the line. You can ask Moore to go down the inside all around Tattenham Corner in midfield but then of course you are very likely to run into trouble. You take your choice but I'm quite certain that over the years particularly riding a strong fancy the route Moore took is the logical one.

3. The Derby. Like Kew Gardens its actually ludicrous to criticise this one. Moore was in a lovely position throughout the race and in a good position considering the pace. Moore and Doyle allowed the first 4 to go clear when they were going too fast. Perhaps some criticism of those jockeys is appropriate (though of course a couple of the Ballydoyle horses were in as pacemakers so it's just Dettori and Murphy that got it wrong)
As the field comes into the straight Donnacha is already pushing and shoving on Broome and looms up on Moore's outside. Mean while Madhmoon is also trying to close and comes up on his inside. You can see Moore doesn't really want to go for everything at this stage but he also needs to be doing enough to stop Broome and Madhmoon going past him because then he really would be in trouble. Initially he's not going for everything but madhmoon has quickened up well so he has to start going for it to stay with him. They all go for home and Anthony Van Dyck finishes stronger and wins perhaps helped by being less crowded than the other 4. This was actually somewhat ironic as for a large part of the straight Heffernan is trying to get Anthony Van Dyck to challenge wide but he keeps hanging in, but then Telecaster and the others on the inside drop away and he gets a clear run on the inside of the track.

We live in a sad world where people either through losing money or with an agenda are desperate to criticise those at the top of the game without being able to apply any logic or reasoning. Or in many cases people are just not intuitive enough to understand. Kew Gardens traded 1.01 and Pink Dogwood 1.08. Not sure how short Sir Dragonet went but clearly all 3 were given a great chance to win. They all hit the front, all looked strong stayers in advance and failed to deliver.

Obviously it's the Betfair forum and we are always unlikely to get reasoned argument and debate, just whinging punters trying to put the blame on someone else for their decisions. Carry on doing it guys and carry on losing or alternatively assess races and rides properly without an agenda and you might start winning.
Report RothmanMike June 3, 2019 9:38 AM BST
Also my reading of all 3 situations, succinctly put Asparagus, but I await the entry of the clowns.
Report mukdahan June 3, 2019 10:07 AM BST
I"m not disagreeing he give all three a chance of winning the point i made was he mistimed his challenge. By quickening at the three marker he was asking too much of the horses to quicken and maintain that acceleration to the line of a strong pace,  it takes an exceptional horse to be able to do that and all three were not of that calibre. If had had delayed his move by another furlong i feel all three win, thats the difference between a very good jockey and a great one , put Lester on those three hes calm and cool enough to wait and deliver one perfectly timed move like the deadly assassin he was.
Report 1st time poster June 3, 2019 10:07 AM BST
after your beaten 6 times on fancied horses by horses coming on your inside ,one might think an elite jockey might just consider he,s not racing on the best part of the track, 2 AOB  horses coming from the clouds were the only 2 to finish on the outside of moore all week and just to rub salt in the wound managed to beat him on the line
Report asparagus June 3, 2019 10:47 AM BST
Rothman, cheers. Glad to see some sense on here.

Mukdahan, I agree in hindsight you can make that argument with Pink Dogwood though not certain it would have made the difference as she just didn't get home as well as expected. Or if O'Brien gave him instructions saying this filly doesn't take after her brother and has much more speed but might not get home so hold her up until very late then you might well criticise him but i very much doubt those were the thoughts/instructions. With regards to the other two for the reasons stated I think it's pretty ludicrous to criticise him. Certainly in the Derby a few jockeys went for home before him and he certainly couldn't risk allowing strong stayers such as Broome to go past him whilst waiting, particularly on a horse such as Sir Dragonet. Looking at how it ended you would certainly be clutching at straws to say he could have come behind Broome and win so he had to partly commit when he did. I've not seen any criticism of Murphy and Dettori who went too quick, of Donnacha and Hayes who committed before Moore or of Lordan who dropped his whip. Just of Moore. It's a bit unseemly.

1st time poster, I do tend to agree with you that the inside of the track may have been a good place to be. However, that's very much a surprise given that if anything usually the middle of the track is slightly faster and certainly not worse. Therefore it was pretty unlikely to think so in advance on the friday. On the saturday it's fresh ground on the inside which doesn't necessarily mean faster ground. Quite often on drying ground it's the ground that's already been opened up which dries faster. In any case all the first 5 home in the Derby tried to come down the middle in the straight so impossible to criticise Moore in such a scenario. As already stated Heffernan just didn't make it there because his horse kept hanging back in.
Report 1st time poster June 3, 2019 11:09 AM BST
they were all what you would consider safe I,m on the best horse in therace rides,keep it simple etc,etc but you can get anyone of 50 jocks to ride like that,think people expect something different from someone considered by some to be the best in the world, hard to believe that every horse moore rode at Epsom would be suited by the same ride,seemed to be an attitude if the horse isn't good enough nothing I might try,do will alter that
Report Rider June 3, 2019 12:44 PM BST
asparagus, the ride of kew gardens was poor in that he should have seen defoe travelling well on his inner at about the 2f marker, he has every opportunity to ease across and close the gap between salouen and communique and give defoe no where to go, or at the very least drift across and impede him in his run given his track position, its basic race riding
Report 1st time poster June 3, 2019 1:02 PM BST
really strange views from ruby walsh,who said ryan would have been disappointed with the other jockeys for giving atzeni a freebie on the inside, so the best jockey in the world supposedly,goes the married mans route for 2 days in the hope so called lesser jockeys block any dangers on his inside, and  if they had sed jockey,s wouldn't have got a mention and ryan hailed a superstar
so in short as well has having the pick of the rides wants the lesserjockey,s to help him out by getting in the way of any dangers as he takes the married mans route
Report mymumsfinethankyou June 3, 2019 1:15 PM BST
rab havlin would have done better ,,and hes a really bad jockey
Report impossible123 June 3, 2019 6:41 PM BST
Moore was carp on Kew Gardens, period! And no defence on his behalf plz otherwise, you're deluded.

As for Pink Dogwood to be at the back and behind Mehdaayih given this filly was already in a hapless position was woefully wrong. Then rushed-up after being 9l down on Dettori who was next to the rails at the 2f marker was another bad, bad riding by Moore. Anyone who disagree will witness this tactic will not be repeated in the Irish Oaks in July; Pink Dogwood was not outstayed just expanded all her energy getting to the front (but) with 2f to go against Annapurna who was still not got at by Dettori when Pink Dogwood went a length up on her.

Just watch how Pink Dogwood will be ridden in the Irish Oaks. But, Moore did nothing wrong in the Derby; Sir Dragonet just got ran-out-of it by 2 classier experienced horses in AVD and Madhmoon, I believe. Also, the ground might not have helped her.
Report FELTFAIR June 3, 2019 8:49 PM BST
Bungle reaffirming his complete helmet status.
Report BornToWin June 3, 2019 10:47 PM BST
YOUR reading of the races asparagus, presented as fact. So what they traded low, this can easily be viewed as a negative. ie he got them all beat from apparently winning positions.

The dissenting voices on here are certainly not all pocket talkers as you wannabe know it alls lazily like to scoff.
Report acey deucy June 3, 2019 11:00 PM BST
I thought Moore was brilliant on Kew Gardens but that dog Defoe ran the race of his life to Win by half a length.
Report impossible123 June 3, 2019 11:27 PM BST
Defoe ran well, and was presented the race by Moore - every dog has its day. Remember Found in the Arc? She was bridesmaids more times I could remember, and also comprehensively beaten by Postponed (fav in the Arc) in the Coronation Cup; she too was presented the Arc cos' connections of Postponed went to the well too frequent eg Meydan - what the heck for? If only Cumani had been the trainer, she'd have won the Arc, I firmly believe.
Report johnslad June 3, 2019 11:36 PM BST
'She'did win the arc
Report duncan idaho June 4, 2019 8:54 AM BST
interesting thread, a valuable insight into the different thought processes people use Mischief


piece de resistance is those having a go at Moore for not picking the right one in the Derby...yard had 4 separated by little more than half a length over 12f at racing pace, yet he's expected to know which is best from some 8f gallops Laugh
Report pa lapsy June 4, 2019 9:41 AM BST
Whatever about the other 2(i thought he should have won on Pink Dogwood,she seems the best horse) Sir Dragonet lost his race before start imo, it was in some state, surprised no one commented on that.
Report 1st time poster June 4, 2019 10:04 AM BST
whether they should have won or not is not the question,
he rode every horse at the meeting the same way ,wide,mid div to back of the field, impossible for every horse to be suited to getting best position by giving same ride
every horse that beat him came up his inner besides 2 AOB,S in derby

coming wide into straight from the back,he,s no idea as in case of defoe whats happening 4,5,6 horses to his inside, tactically he just rode like a decent apprentice keep wide,mid div to back of field,keep out of trouble ,give outside to no one in the straight and if the horse is good enough he wins,veracious all though not wanted in betting was probably his worst ride of the week, 10 furlong horse ridden like a sprinter hoping to get the trip
he didn't even have the usual problems of Epsom of poor draws,not coming down the hill, hanging down the camber,lack of pace etc,etc,looked like a morphing of his Monday to thurs riding where he rides as though he,s bored with the job and would rather be doing something else somewhere else
Report BornToWin June 4, 2019 10:35 AM BST
Nailed it 1st time poster. IMO
Report Deptford June 4, 2019 7:00 PM BST
Spot on 1st time, spot on
Report punchestown June 4, 2019 7:06 PM BST
I think RL Moore should have studied a few tapes of MJ Kinane riding the track to see the way to ride a well fancied horse to its optimum.
Report punchestown June 4, 2019 7:06 PM BST
At Epsom.
Report FELTFAIR June 4, 2019 7:49 PM BST
Kinane rode Yesterday in the Oaks behind Casual Look 2003. Should of won half the the track but instead of riding the track like Ryan Moore he stayed to the inside and was all dressed up with nowhere to go and got beat a neck.

15. Yesterday (IRE) 100/30F
Mick Kinane
A P O'Brien
3    90     –    90    116    –   
Held up in midfield, 9th straight, not clear run twice over 2f out, closed on leaders but nowhere to go 1f out, switched left, ran on well, unlucky (op 5-2 tchd 7-2)
Report punchestown June 4, 2019 8:06 PM BST
Just the one bad ride back in 2003?,is that it?.
Report FELTFAIR June 4, 2019 8:14 PM BST
No, I never criticise jockeys but that one coupled with one by Richard Hughes for Michael Stoute also at Epsom, one by Kevin Manning in the Pretty Polly at Goodwood and one by Eddie Aherne at Newmarket stick in my mind.

Ryan Moore did nothing wrong at Epsom and delivered each horse perfectly but was outbattled in each case.
Report Deptford June 4, 2019 8:27 PM BST
You need a doctor if you think he rode them all well ^
Report acey deucy June 4, 2019 8:30 PM BST
You better call one for me as well.Plain
Report FELTFAIR June 4, 2019 8:30 PM BST
My daughter is a doctor and she assures me I am just fine.

Unless otherwise instructed the key requirements for a horse to run to it`s best is to settle, travel, quicken and battle. Which of the latter did Ryan get wrong?
Report Deptford June 4, 2019 8:37 PM BST
Can you ask her about my rash please?
Report FELTFAIR June 4, 2019 8:40 PM BST
Take 2" off the top of your wellingtons.
Report Oldgit1 June 4, 2019 11:18 PM BST
After his last two for the Queen will he ever get a Knighthood ?
Report jed.davison June 5, 2019 7:36 AM BST
It's doubtful - even if one can attribute any blame to Moore for any of the rides in question - whether History has been changed in respect of anything but footnotes by the results at Epsom last weekend. Kew Gardens is an admirable sort no doubt, Pink Dogwood's day may yet come, and you suspect that were Broome a world beater O'Brien may not have run a phalanx of hopeless traffic to get in his way. One can hardly weep for the glory or potential breeding riches lost to the Ballydoyle machine.

The OP's question is interesting though, because there has been an example in the relatively recent past where the fallibility of men has rearranged the rightful historical pecking order among Thoroughbreds; I refer of course to the summer of 2003, and the series of calamitous rides that denied the majestic Falbrav his true place in Racing's Pantheon.
Report Andrew.in.Sweden June 5, 2019 8:03 AM BST
Jed.davison,

Well written post Happy
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