The Gigginstown Outfit

Pay millions for potential staying chasers but don't allow them to run in the richest race of the year..bonkers

Millions?

Someone's been on the sauce.

Pointer went for 440k at Aintree.. doesn't take many of those to make seven figures plus nation

Just for your edification I meant an owner's total spend not the price of one horse and three guinesses at Aintree hardly constitutes being on the sauce!!! You need to get out more because you're like king canute with your thinking

IMP spot on ..

impossible 00.34 april 5th

apart from tiger roll the price of there next best is 20/1 or worse and that is absurd.

what price was rule the world when he won the race for gigginstown ?

I was teasing Isleham.

Also, at no point have I suggested banning anyone from running their horses, and of course you can make a case that every one of his runners is entitled to take its chance - I'm simply of the view it is unsporting and not really in the spirit of things to swamp the field and account for over 20% of it (and considerably worse in the case of the Irish National last year).

I always knew a poster would dig up form to be contrarian to suit eg Rule The World. All very well, but at least not be just selective about his price, but other factors eg his owner Gigginstown only had 3 runners (but not the fav in Last Samurai who was 8/1), and Elliot 1.

However, this year not only Tiger Roll is the reigning champion, but could start the shortest, at 5/1 fav; Gigginstown next best is about 28/1, 50/1, 66/1, 80/1, etc, but significantly more on the Exchange.

Horse Racing is a sport, but it will not be long if an owner and/or trainer fielded 13 (11) in a field of 40. Imagine if there were only 20 or 10 runners, and the same number ran from these entities.

jimeen • April 5, 2019 7:56 PM BST

The reason people never said anything about Pipe having ten runners in the National is because he never had .

??

wr posted 2002, think it was 2001

The fact that there is prize money all the way down to 10th spot is surely a major factor here.
£561,000 1st
£211,000 2nd
£105,000 3rd
£52,000 4th
£26, 000 5th

Certainly not peanuts even for 5th...!!

Michael Dickinson had 5 of the 11 runners in the 1983 Gold Cup and look what happened there....!!

Correct exactman, it was hailed as the greatest training feat ever! of course he was British...

The Gold Cup is a non-handicap and Michael Dickinson's charges were there on merit eg ran in the respectable/recognised trials and performed superbly, and accordingly.

Look at the Scottish Premiership: In the past one could be assured it was either a one-or-two horse race ie Celtic or Rangers unless either or both of these teams were rebuilding, and/or unrelated external factors come into play eg financial impropriety with Rangers.

of course they can do and will do what they wish but i know in ireland the common punter and racegoer is getting increaseingly frustrated with races with just a few runners and most of them from these connections , especially the bigger races , they already get at the races a lot of stick if their shorter ones get punted and lose beaten by the second or third string , I wouldnt punt any of theirs in similar races , i think they simply throw lots of darts at the board hoping one comes up , Its probebly good business , but is it sporting im not so sure ,,, Mind you for me its similar to the big trainers haveing Hunter runners ,  Cant they leave a bit of gravy for the lower orders to dip their bread in ,,, Tis greed greed ,,, and Paul nics is the worst culprit by far ,, ive had less of an opinion of him since he entered this  sector , and i just cant see why top trainers of gold cups need this part of grass roots racing except for greed

Fair play to them,don't think anyone could begrudge them that with all the money they put into the sport.

Cheap flights from MoL to boot, class act indeed.

How many of the 18 finishers were owned by gigginstown

Sorry 19

Seeing as you know the answer and have pointlessly raised the issue, not sure I should bother to enumerate it, but I will.

If you include the two he sold, he had 6 finishers from 9 runners, so 67%.

Small sample sizes and random variation can produce all sorts of utterly meaningless statistics if you decide to enlist them to add meretricious weight to a viewpoint. The Exors of the Late Alan Potts had 1 runner and 1 finisher, so let's laud them for their 100% strike rate.

Graham Wylie had 1 runner and it got killed, so let's castigate him for having a 100% fatality rate.

Gordon Elliott had 4 finishers from 11. Let's castigate him for having a below average finishing rate.

Or let's maybe not try and contort tiny sample sizes to make feeble counterarguments.

Statistics could be interpreted any way one wishes to reinforce one's opinion or proposition similarly, Economics. Nevertheless, in the Grand National Gigginstown had 7 runners: winner (TR), 10th (VL 2nd attempt) and 12th (ATP) with 1F and 3PU; winner was 4/1 fav. From these stats one can confidently infer/deduce a max of 3 was more than sufficient from the entity esp with a hotpot in their charge.

Gigginstown, next year please no VL, General Principle, Dounikos, Monbeg Notorious or Blow By Blow; the former (VL) proven not good enough; the rest out of their depth and preventing others from participation to ensure some fairness and restore sportsmanship in the race.

It would seem to me most sports nowadays have become highly business like with money dominating..with football it's the big 6 with mega budgets and even cricket with Surrey getting players in from other poorer counties so to argue otherwise in horse racing seems to be pointless and a throwback to times that will never return. In the world today the man with the most dollars rules

Indeed, look at President Trump. But for his money his present role would be zilch; old fashioned, abrasive, inarticulate, narcissistic, undiplomatic, lacking integrity, and obnoxious. He's also a bully.

Besides that impossible you don’t mind him.

^^
If you meant his money I'd not want that either; it was not his to begin with, I believe, according to various independent media information outlets. I'd not like to be President Trump for everything in the world, or in my next life, why? He'll leave no respectable legacy post his Presidency; the man is vile despite being the President Of The United States of America (only the United States of America, no other developed nation), I firmly believe.

I really feel for some on here, maybe Gigginstown should just go away and leave the game altogether , what about Nicky Paul and all the other trainers who train for rich owners with plenty of horses. Do you seriously think that the likes of the Rooneys etc wouldn't have more runners in these big races if they could, grow up for God's sake, this game is now a business . How many ordinary folk can dish out £400,000 etc for p2p horses, its a rich mans game.
As for punters not liking Gigginstown fav getting beat , now that's a laugh , every horse they send out is TRYING how many other owners can you say that about, and yes I've got burned many a time backing one of theirs who started fav.

Pipe having 10 is one thing but numerous horses wearing the same colours is something else, he's entitled of course but it doesn't look good.

I bet the wider viewing public that we are constantly in fear of would have been rather aggrieved if they'd landed on one of the gigginstown runners, trying to spot it in the race.

What percentage of the field did Dickinson have in 'his' Gold Cup?

think 11 ran

The argument has drifted into limiting trainers and/or owner, when imo the actually perceived issue for the public, is that multiple entries means many horses are back numbers or no hopers, which are actually keeping other horses will a live chance out of the race.

Whether that is true or just a perception, I am not sure.

'workrider', I think you are missing he point.

Gigginstown as horse owner is not in question, but their dominance in a prestigious race like the Grand National is. I firmly believe no owner should be allowed more than 3 runners, to restore fairness, competitiveness and sportsmanship in the race especially so if the owner also has the short price fav too.

Prices paid for any horse is only to the benefit of the vendor and/or breeder, not buyer. If the likes of Gigginstown and Ricci, to name two were not around lower prices of horses will no doubt benefit the genuine (sport) owners; it will also attract new comers into the game as a level playing field is more likely.

As for the trainers you've quoted that would not have a negative impact on how the horses are trained either, I firmly believe, as competition would not decreased (more likely to increase) as competition will be more opened.

MJK, regards Dickinson's charges in the Gold Cup: He had the best horses in a non-handicap but Grade 1 Blue Riband race. For isntance, if Aiden or any outfit were to run their best horses (not those pace-setter/riding shotgun for the number 1 runner) in the Derby or Oaks I'd be all for it. But, not having 7 runners like Gigginstown had in the Grand National with only one making the frame; 4 either fell or did not complete the race. These (badly) over-rans were depriving those horses that were just outside the permitted 40 runners in the race.

Nice bit of business though to enter a few horses past there best and then take advantage to people desperate for a runner at an inflated price, wonder how they feel today, probably similar to all the people that bought an Olympic torch for a small fortune

Gigginstown dishing out the caps

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XwWmRiS3G0Q

Gigginstown must not be allowed to treat horse racing (the sport) like they run Ryanair.

They've won plenty of big staying chases with what was perceived as one of the outsiders from their multiple entry. I don't think even Gordon Elliott is so good that he knew only the winner would be there at the finish out of all his/Gigginstowns.

Does any racehorse owner over the jumps put as much money back into the sport through sponsorship as O’Leary

MJK, when races took part in Ireland (mainly/only).

'foxy', sponsorship = promotion for Ryanair and publicity for the O'Learys. The same reason why the likes of Ruoert Murdoch, Robert Maxwell, Conrad Black, etc, bought/retained newspapers when they were lost-making? Newspapers act as their owners' mouth-pieces.

At the end of the day, a level playing field is good for all involved eg trainer/owner/punter (big and small) even in business to promote innovation and competition, and suppress complacency and domination by only a select few eg amazon, facebook, google, microsoft (in tech);  utilities; telecoms; airlines; etc.

I think the real issue here is the handicapping of these horses.
The handicappers need to be much much tougher.
I am of the opinion that if a horse enters a handicap race having run an absolute stinker the last time then it is deemed to be unable to be classified and therefore is forced to run off top weight.
In a race like the national, with a large entry then most of the Giggy horses would be denied a run. Because last time out they were beaten out of sight. And therefore unable to be alotted a suitable handicap mark.
To my mind only the Tiger, A Toi Phil and Dounikos came into the race with a decent prep behind them.
The others had not come anywhere close to winning.

And was it just me, but wasnt the national the second big handicap running after the lincoln that seemed to be run at a crawl?
Maybe the traditional cavalry charge to the first fence has been denied by lecturing about fallers and horse welfare.
But to my mind Tiger Roll and Rathvinden were able to bowl along at their own pace pretty much as they pleased.
With giggy and gordon elliot running a phalanx of no hopers held up out the back never involved. That didnt help the pace angle.

Its hard to crab the winner as the GN is a unique race but I would imagine he would not get such an easy time of it in a G1 chase.
Talk of him being a gold cup horse is wide of the mark imo.

Apr 8, 2019 -- 10:14PM, impossible123 wrote:

MJK, when races took part in Ireland (mainly/only).'foxy', sponsorship = promotion for Ryanair and publicity for the O'Learys. The same reason why the likes of Ruoert Murdoch, Robert Maxwell, Conrad Black, etc, bought/retained newspapers when they were lost-making? Newspapers act as their owners' mouth-pieces.At the end of the day, a level playing field is good for all involved eg trainer/owner/punter (big and small) even in business to promote innovation and competition, and suppress complacency and domination by only a select few eg amazon, facebook, google, microsoft (in tech);  utilities; telecoms; airlines; etc.

So you're actual problem, amid all the bluster, is that the Gigginstowns operation isn't British?

'MJK', I'm astonished you could come up with trash that "the Gigginstown operation isn't British". It merely shows the shallowness of your mentality. Also, it's pure jingoism on your part!

Have you not read my posts on this thread and elsewhere? I've many friends who are British and non-British yet I've never been accused of the trash you've insinuated. Lately, I've noticed you resort to "moving the goal post" whenever you are unable to or unwilling to accept a near fact or probable plausible alternative view; you are also non-conducive to views of other posters different to yours.

Let's keep the argument/debate in perspective ie the un-sportsmanship of owner of Tiger Roll the fav (and winner) of the Grand National with multi-entries of over-rans/no-hopers depriving others eg smaller yards/owners of runners in this prestigious race; this assertion had been vindicated by the eventual results of the National eg his owner had the shortest price fav (and winner), next best was 10th and the rest nowhere or either pulled-up or fell ie out of 7, only one made the frame (the winner).

If you choose to persist with this line of immature non-adult argument/debate ie repeatedly moving the point of discussion to suit your new post/new agenda I shall not spend any more time replying to you, and put you on 'ignore' like I've with some others of your ilk. Also, I do not value your opinions and mentality, horse racing or not.

they didn't do anything wrong, the rules allowed them to enter, the horses were qualified and got in on their OR, whether people see it unsporting or team tactics is a personal view

when/if the bha modify the conditions/rules of entry we'll have another group arguing it's restrictive and top owners that support the sport are being driven out/penalised/or their horses stopped from valid entry

until then, it is what it is

Impossible, your argument re Giggys under performers is way off the mark, firstly they actually WON the race least you forget, most of theirs were rated HIGHER than a lot of other runners. Are those who finished behind the Giggy horses deemed unfit by you to have taken part ?.Brendan Powell handing in his licence is another reason to realise that this game is no longer a sport but a business, just ask Brendan...

Well my final word on this matter is the more gigginstown horses that run over here the better I would love to see 3 or 4 in the king George.

Personally I would love to see the top races like the King George represented by as many different owners and trainers as possible. Same as the Grand National.

To be honest I aint sure I like what we seem to be heading towards.

Impossible you no doubt have a very high opinion of yourself, well done. Do you honestly think I care what you think of my opinion? As for the subject at hand you haven't answered the question, why is it ok for them to have multiple entries 'when races took part in Ireland' as you said, and not in the UK? When have you complained about that? Why just complain when the race is in the UK? Also shouldn't then the 100/1 shots in the race be deemed to have taken spots from 'better' horses. What about them? As for moving the goalposts you've moved several by trying to sidestep the question with pretend outrage and vocal diarrhoea. By all accounts do me a favour and put me on your 'ignore' list with all the other less intellectual people than yourself, or should I say take the ball home when you're not getting your own way.

Not a single runner in the Scottish equivalent this weekend. Surely at least 1 of the Aintree 9 could have taken its chance at Ayr?

No doubt he'll have half the field in the Irish National again this year!

'workrider', I'm fully aware Gigginstown won the National with the hottest hotpot for the race ever, and that was why I reiterated several times prior they did not need to run 7 - 3 would have been accepted by most. As it turned out only Tiger Roll (hotpot and fav) was the winner and placed horse, with the rest (4) no where eg either poorly unplaced (completed), pulled-up or fell. Some of these may have a higher (past) rating, but it did not take away the fact Gigginstown had 7 runners in a 40 runner limit prestigious/famous race leaving quite a few just missing out.

I'm not saying those just outside the 40 would have finished infront of the two that completed the race, but they could very possibly have done better than the others that fell or pulled-up as the 2nd Magic Of Light showed eg rated lower that the 2 of Gigginstown that completed.

But the gist of the debate was whether it was sporting and/or fair to other entities Gigginstown entered 9 (2 sold prior) with a hotpot like Tiger Roll. I'd not even have minded if it was a non-handicap Grade 1 Gold Cup at Cheltenham as it was the case with Michael Dickinson (5), and I believe his had different owners.

Sad to hear Brendan Powell (personable gentleman) has handed-in his training licence (great ride on Rhyme 'N' Reason). But, I'm afraid that is the risk of being a horse trainer where quantity is paramount to be feasible, and I wish him well.

Nevertheless, a prestigious handicap race like the famous National must not be dominated by any one owner running 7, I firmly believe; I could accept in Grade 1 races provided no un-sportsmanship tactical riding by their stablemates in the race.

too many in the national then not enough in the scottish..poor old michael just cant get it right for you..perhaps he was leaving ayr to all the horses that were denied a run at aintree

On a different subject I see mark johnson had 2/3rds of the field in a race at ponty today.

The point isleham, is that in light of that fact, it looks like he was deliberately swamping the Aintree race to prevent others taking their chance. If he wasn't, and genuinely had the best interests of the sport at heart (which is what many on here have been arguing), he would have surely have run at least a couple in the Scottish race.

Mark Johnston not denying anyone else a run, although any yard which dominates a race to that extent raises integrity issues and is certainly not one I'd want to bet in. Evan Williams had half the field in a couple of races earlier in the season - again, events you'd be mad to get involved in.

Spot on kemo
Obviously works o k for sheikh mohammed in dubai
Fact is Ireland realises why its so important as a sport
It must really pain the u k establishment
Seeing the sport of kings or queens
Dominated by paddy and mo
Perhaps brexit might get them off their r s
who said "Nation of moaners" jeremy kyle ?

As for impossible
Hes so far up his own backside
He thinks ignoring us is an insult
I imagine in his ivory tower
Eve ryone has to hear the bolleaux
He speaks ...serfdom still rules

So what if he does deliberately swamp the race

To prevent others taking part

HE DOES NOT MAKE THE RULES

THE BHA IS WHO YOU SHOULD BE MOANING ABOUT !

You certainly get the distinct impression the main problem here is an anti Irish or should I say in particular an anti Elliot and O'leary bias. Elliot came from nowhere to be one of the top two trainers in his country unlike the likes of Henderson and Sherwood who's fathers owned half a county each.

People moaning that he has too many runners in the Grand National and not any in the Scottish National .

Just sounds like a anti Elliott and O'Leary thread now .

How many runners did Trevor Hemmings have in the race . One fell at the first as well , surely he could've seen in hindsight it would fall and allow someone else to have a runner in the race .

Isleham
Why do you think this may be an anti Irish thing? Yes it is a thing against O'Learys,thats how the thread started,as its their operation that have caused this debate.

I have been following this thread and all I see is people concerned about sportsmanship and others not that bothered, saying all within the rules etc, which they are correct in that.
Nowt wrong with having two sides to a debate/discussion,would not be much of one without two sides!!

Are you suggesting that because the subjects of the thread are Irish they are not allowed to be criticised?
Also do you think the thread would have been started had the same thing happened with a british operation?

Buddeliea short answer yes imop. Longer answer I was gonna mention Trevor Hemmings yesterday but left it alone. Seeing as he has been mentioned I find it hard to believe that if had 6 or 7 runners in the race we'd have a similar thread to this. Instead we'd hear how much he has put into the game and goodwill. As regards the anti Irish bias rather than a generalisation I feel there's a definite anti Irish racing bias on here lately. Before this thread we've had people calling for harsher handicapping of Irish runners in the UK, purely to stop them winning. Some continue to bash on about cheating in Ireland but won't acknowledge any wrongdoing in UK races. I won't be surprised if next someone will call for Irish jump jockeys mounts to carry extra weight when riding in the UK as they are superior in general.

'buddeliea', I'd a premonition this debate/discussion would come to this conclusion ie polarised eg those concerned about sportsmanship and fairness vs those about the fee payers' rights, horse racing is a business, no rule being broken, etc.

No wonder 'Brexit' is too insurmountable even for the learned professionals - legals and non-legals. But that's another subject best not discussed on this thread.

Well I would like to think that all owners/trainers are treated the same whether Irish or British.They should be praised or criticised according to their actions not their nationality. 
Had hemmings or indeed any other owner had as many runners as Gigginstown I would like to think the OP would still have started this thread. 

We cannot keep having threads on here implying bias,or people being accused of all sorts, otherwise as a few have said on here lately...this forum is dead.

I have been on here for years and never had any of this irish/brit thing going on until recently,well only in jokey type banter.
It needs to stop.
I enjoy discussion and debate as the amount of posts I have made indicates!! But I am really getting fed up of these type of threads that are happening more and more.

Well put. This is a thread for horse racing, and anything pertaining to its integrity, enjoyment and punting.

Buddeliea while you do indeed engage in debate and banter others just look down their noses at the rest of us unclean and get the hump if they are challenged. Perhaps things would be easier if this didn't go on as much as it did with certain individuals on here. Final point, we have someone going on about integrity and fairness, is it fair to want Irish handicappers to be treated harsher than they are just because they win some races? I don't see Mr. Fairness call out posters who want this to happen. Integrity indeed.

i can see the potato famine getting dragged into this

Mjk

Most racegoers over here appreciate the Irish horses coming over I remember back in 2001 the Irish had already decided no horses would travel over to the festival due to foot and mouth many thought there would little point in having a festival without them the rest as they say is history.

Apr 10, 2019 -- 9:32AM, foxy wrote:

Mjk Most racegoers over here appreciate the Irish horses coming over I remember back in 2001 the Irish had already decided no horses would travel over to the festival due to foot and mouth many thought there would little point in having a festival without them the rest as they say is history.

I've no doubt about that foxy but some on here don't see it that way

most racegoers at the festival wouldnt give a damm if the irish horses,trainers or racegoers were there as long as the beer pumps are on

I don't like O'Leary. I've had the misfortune to use his Poundshop airline twice over the years and never again.
However he does have a lot of decent staying chasers which is what he obviously tries for and that shouldn't be discouraged,particularly as a lot of British trainers seem unable to convert reasonable hurdlers into chasers.

i think that alot of the problems with these big handicaps at the festivals come from these decent horses who dont really have to show any form all year and are still rated high enough to get a run

I addressed this perceived 'anti-Irish' drivel early on in the thread by saying if the Rooneys were running 9 I would make the same point (and also criticised them for bleating about the safety of Cheltenham but having no qualms about running in the most dangerous race of the year).

To cynically keep suggesting it is a cheap way of detracting from the criticism I have levelled at the individual - it's like Dianne Abbott playing the race card every time her dodgy sums are highlighted.

Gazo your clearly have never been to the opening three days of the Cheltenham Festival or the two days of the Dublin festival.

Gigginstown have 14 of the top 40 entered for the Irish equilalent, to be honest he has so many of a similar type ie not quite good enough for grade1 though almost automatic top weight in a non graded handicap,where can he go with them?

^^^ why none in the Scottish National? Not a solitary entry.

Have they had runners in the Scottish national in the past ?

Just checked the last 3 years non in 2018 or 2017 two in 2016

Trained by Morris and Mullins

I have no idea why not, fair point, "odd" race imo,it seems to suit certain types.
Can't see any Irish runner though a few were entered,

None in 13/14/15 either must be the close proximity to fairyhouse

Of course it's entirely the owner's prerogative to run where he wishes, but it undermines the suggestion that there are no opportunities other than Aintree and the Irish National when he has none in the Scottish race, and adds to my suspicion he ran so many at Liverpool to prevent others from taking their chance. The fact he then sells two of his perceived weaker runners to a couple of numpties chasing overnight glory reinforces my view - if he's so keen to win the race and is only entering horses he thinks has a chance, why risk parting company with them?

It seems to me that Fairyhouse and Liverpool are the two he's desperate to win (again, I have no problem with that, they'd be my principle targets too if I were an Irishman), but he goes beyond simply running his best chances in these (spurning other suitable races like Ayr) to restrict the opportunities of others. That is the nub of my critique - I think it's unsporting.

You could obviously say the same about Magnier and co on the flat.
You probably could about Godolphin if they ever managed to get enough good horses.

Portrait King in 2017 Foxy (rated 130), whatever it is with the Scottish Nat(not slagging it as the prizemoney is good) there is little interest by ANY Irish trainer,whereas the Welsh and even Midlands and Eider seems to get a few Ir runners.

everyone knew don poli and outlander had no chance of winning and thank you very much for the 335k

if aiden didnt target epsom there would be very few runners each year

Pa lapsy

Portrait king was trained by Patrick griffin.

I think he is a Dub Foxy

I hadn’t realised that pa lapsy he had two in the race as well

He had a winner at towceter in October 2017

Only remembered it because i liked Portrait King,slow as a boat but think he broke his pelvis(?) and managed to come back after having a few years off.

His last run was at Hexham on the same day penhill won the stayers hurdle the day gigginstown won the first 3 races at Cheltenham but best keep that quiet I wouldn’t won’t to set anybody off regarding been unsportsmanlike.

I'm sure you'll be along with some more convincing statistics to back up that point shortly foxy.

Lighten up one nation

Shush Foxy , he'll be having a heart attack trying to defend that, though to be fair to the lad, he seems to think that if the Giggingstown lot had not run the other outsiders below them in the rating would have finished the course...

Another irrelevant straw man argument, but at least you've moved on from playing the Irish victimhood card.

whatever you say cant believe this subject would have been raised if the multiple entry owner had been say trevor hemmings

I've only addressed that point about 20 times now, but keep making it if it makes you feel better.

Why you believe that Isleham?

Can’t

Firstly the sentence should be "why DO you believe that" and secondly don't understand "cant".
I do believe it because the forum is riddled especially with anti O'leary and Elliot comments and this smacks of this under the thinly disguised thread of not sporting which is out dated in modern sport. Incidently I was born in Devon and live in Surrey so no special affinity to Ireland though I do admire Gigginstown buying the type of jumper I love

..."the forum is riddled especially with anti-O'Leary and Elliot comments"...

What a load of tosh!

In recent years I've backed Elliot and the O'Learys' horses at Cheltenham increasingly more than any trainer and/or owner including Hendo, JOB and Mullins eg Don Cossack, No More Heroes, Samcro, Battleoverdoyen, Delta Work, Mengli Khan, etc. However, their decision to run the humongous number of charges in the Grand National was woeful, and unsporting to me personally. As such, I very rarely back horses in handicap and/or Grade 1/2/3 races in Ireland; the Dublin and Punchestown Festivals are not my cup of tea either given their unpredictable results, and time of year.

I think one's origin and present place of abode is not always an accurate indication of one's mentality or behaviour. On the other hand, the environment one has been exposed to and operated in for a lengthy period are more likely to, I understand.

I meant to say.....why can't you believe that....but missed can't out,but thanks for the english lesson.

Cheers for answering

Threads done now for me.

Cheers and me too..nite the double o

I rather ruined that with the mis spelling of note so the jokes on me big time

Slap me with a wet tea towel across the face!

Crosshue Boy is Irish trained and vying for favouritism, not sure is he worthy of a 142 rating but as said imo an "odd" race and anyones guess who will be suited to it.
Most of giggys would be top weight in this.