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Buzzards
21 Aug 18 21:12
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Date Joined: 02 Mar 18
| Topic/replies: 375 | Blogger: Buzzards's blog
Discussion over a beer tonight about old bookies and bets, old guy in our local independents in 80s, every bet he had was crossed and double, get the double part but what was the crossed bit?  Any body still do them?

Thanks in advance.
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Report Scamp the man August 21, 2018 10:14 PM BST
Crossed was 2 singles as well as the double as I remember
Report the dealer August 21, 2018 10:15 PM BST
was crossed not single stakes about on the singles?
Report Scamp the man August 21, 2018 10:16 PM BST
Think it was 3 bets ..2 singles and a d double ...but wouldn't swear on it
Report Buzzards August 21, 2018 10:23 PM BST
Yep deffo 3 stakes his bet was always £3.  £1 on each crossed an a £1 double, but can’t remember crossed bit and how it worked, Ronnie Rails will hopefully advise.
Report geoff m August 21, 2018 10:33 PM BST
from memory
a and b £1 x and double

£1 win a ATC(any to come ) £1 win b
£1 win b ATC £1 win a
£1 double

£3 total
Report DenzilPenberthy August 21, 2018 10:34 PM BST
Will be a £1 up and down and a £1 double also known as £1 SSA + £1 double (SSA single stakes about)

Written something like

selection a 330

   £1 xxx £1

selection b 430

+ £1 double
Report geoff m August 21, 2018 10:34 PM BST
dont take it as gospel as its 30 years since i settled bets
Report DenzilPenberthy August 21, 2018 10:37 PM BST
You could also do DSA (double stakes about) where if your horse wins double goes onto the next one.
In the above instance £2 shifted i.e instead of £1,that's why they are called shifting bets.
Report DenzilPenberthy August 21, 2018 10:40 PM BST
I used to do Round Robins and Flags when I was younger which are just trixies and yankees + the up and downs or SSA (single stakes about),RR + 6 up and downs Flag + 12 up and downs.
Report DenzilPenberthy August 21, 2018 10:42 PM BST
Aye Geoff amazing how many different ways to write the same bet.
Report onlooker August 21, 2018 11:01 PM BST
I can remember people referring to "Crossed Doubles" when I was a young Saturday Settlet.

A popular bet in our area was called  a 'Twist and Double'

Same bet as described in geof m 22:33 post


a and b £1 x and double

£1 win a ATC(any to come ) £1 win b
£1 win b ATC £1 win a
£1 double

£3 total

----

Thus ...


A) Wins at 3/1 = Returns £4 - BUT - the £1 Stake now goes onto a (further/additional) £1 SINGLE on B)

However - If A) Loses - THEN - NO further Stake travels onto B)

- and Reversed - Starting with B) - onto A)

Plus  a £1 Double A) and B)

If BOTH Horses won - Then - aswell as the Double - the Winning Punter ended up with a £2 Single on BOTH A) and B)..... But - with only the ORIGINAL £1 stake on EACH Returned.
Report DenzilPenberthy August 21, 2018 11:28 PM BST
That's it and 1 winner on said 3/1 shot £3 returned as the £1 has been shifted onto the subsequent loser.
DSA or shift double £2 would've been shifted,probably almost unheard of amongst the under 60s nowadays.
Report sparrow August 22, 2018 6:55 AM BST
Geoff m has it right. It was a popular bet in the 60s especially amongst older punters.
Report Buzzards August 22, 2018 7:08 AM BST
Thanks Guys think that’s it Geoff, must of needed to be smart as a settler back in the day,Alas unlike today.
Report geoff m August 22, 2018 7:29 AM BST
No prob. Was relatively easy to calculate.
However a more complicated version was the round robin
3 selections 10 bets
3 doubles 1 treble plus 6 crossed doubles/SSA/
Especially when the punter wanted each way to....... 2 1/2 p.
They went to bottom of the pile and where allways last to be settled

Even more complicated was the liverpool round robin and Dundee shuffle
Report guernseyw August 22, 2018 7:35 AM BST
I still occasionally do the  £ X/bet - £ doub when only fancy 2 running

You find the younger staff just take it , then when go back you end up having to explain the bet to them
Report Buzzards August 22, 2018 7:48 AM BST
I remember trying the round robins as they had their own flash slip, as a mug in them days (now an educated mug) I never understood the working out, pretty pleased with myself one day to have all as winners to be very disappointed to find payout was poor for the £1 stake = £10 (a lot in the 80s) reverted quickly to my Yankee, Trixie if tight, or super Yankee if flush, strange how doing any multiple or exotic wouldn’t enter my head these days!   Sat morning hackney dogs doing forecast doubles and trebles was particularly loathsome for our settler.
Report stewarts rise August 22, 2018 8:08 AM BST
Don't forget the "Union Jack" a bet with 9 selections usually backed in trebles, normally if you want to back 9 selections in trebles you would have to stake 84 bets.
With the union jack the 9 selections would be arranged in the style of the union jack flag with 3 selections on top line, 3 selections on the middle line and 3 on the bottom, which gave just 8 trebles as in a game of cris cross quiz. 3 trebles in the horizontal lines, 3 in the vertical lines and 2 in the diagonal lines.
Obviously staking just 8 trebles was a lot cheaper than staking 84 trebles so was a popular bet for small stakes, the downside was that you could pick 5 winners and not get a treble up!
Report geoff m August 22, 2018 8:11 AM BST
stewarts could you pick 6 and still not get a winner??
Report geoff m August 22, 2018 8:12 AM BST
winning treble that is!
Report Buzzards August 22, 2018 8:13 AM BST
Didn’t you have to put your nap or short price shot in the middle as you were doomed if it got beat, which alas was pretty much guaranteed.
Report stewarts rise August 22, 2018 8:15 AM BST
I think you'd definatly get a treble up with 6 winners geoff.
Report geoff m August 22, 2018 8:20 AM BST
yep stewart forgetting the diagonal!!
Report stewarts rise August 22, 2018 8:21 AM BST
So why place a union jack bet? Using the flag design to match up selections gives some bets more coverage than others. For example, the selection placed in the middle of the flag would be involved the most, as it is implicated in both diagonal trebles, as well as one vertical and one horizontal.

This gives you a banker if you place the selection you are most confident about in the middle to ensure it is involved as much as possible, therefore increasing your chances of several of your combinations being successful.

The union jack bet also means you do not have to rely too heavily on selections you are not overly confident about coming in, as four of your picks will only be involved in two of the eight trebles that can be placed as part of a union jack bet.

This spread allows you to place a bet that emphasises the selections you are confident about and limits the influence of the selections you do not feel as confident about, which will increase your chances of getting a return on the selections you are more sure of and lessen the odds on the others.
Report stewarts rise August 22, 2018 8:30 AM BST
A Dundee shuffle. I've copied this!

Select four horses in four full stake singles bets Any-To-Come a half-stake Trixie on the other three, six half stake doubles Any-To-Come a full stake Double on the other two, four half stake Trebles and each way half stake Accumulator.  (Totalling sixteen bets, four at full stake and twelve at half stake.  For example 4 x £1 plus 12 at 50pence, totalling £10 stake.)

  It would be interesting to find out the author of this excruciatingly elaborate bet, and whether anyone has ever won any substantial amount with it.   My best guess is that it was invented by a quasi mathematical genius with too much time on his hands in the 1930s.
Report khyber kim August 22, 2018 8:41 AM BST
Do a Cross and ew double most Saturdays.

10pts win A

   XX    10pts ew double

10pts win B

Been doing them for donkeys years
Report Zsa_Zsa_Gabors_Leg August 22, 2018 9:22 AM BST
1   2   3

4   5   6

7   8   9


You could have 6 winners and no return on a Union Jack, either 2,3,4,6,7,8
or 1,2,4,6,8,9
Report stewarts rise August 22, 2018 9:35 AM BST
You're right ZZ, my mistake thanks for pointing out.
Report saxon farm August 22, 2018 10:16 AM BST
Anyone still do each way (equally divided) multiples.
Used to be more popular up north as I remember.
Report Zsa_Zsa_Gabors_Leg August 22, 2018 11:53 AM BST
I wouldnt have thought so Saxon, I doubt anyone under 45 has even heard of it!
Report SlippyBlue August 22, 2018 12:28 PM BST

Aug 22, 2018 -- 2:30AM, stewarts rise wrote:


A Dundee shuffle. I've copied this!Select four horses in four full stake singles bets Any-To-Come a half-stake Trixie on the other three, six half stake doubles Any-To-Come a full stake Double on the other two, four half stake Trebles and each way half stake Accumulator.  (Totalling sixteen bets, four at full stake and twelve at half stake.  For example 4 x £1 plus 12 at 50pence, totalling £10 stake.)  It would be interesting to find out the author of this excruciatingly elaborate bet, and whether anyone has ever won any substantial amount with it.   My best guess is that it was invented by a quasi mathematical genius with too much time on his hands in the 1930s.


Stewarts rise, that brings back memories. The settler in my local independant always maintained that he could settle a 'Dundee Shuffle' in his head. He was such a brilliant settler and totally above board that nobody ever questioned him!

Report stewarts rise August 22, 2018 12:48 PM BST
Was easy to settle if there were 4 losers!
Think some punters years ago used to do complicated bets 3 or 4 in a race in EW d+ts etc just to annoy the clerk!
Report dunlaying August 22, 2018 1:44 PM BST
Up and Down , Any To Come , Single Stakes About , Crossed  are the same thing but Double Crossed is double stakes about . There must be plenty of variations depending on the area.

The best value , I use the term loosely , in multiple bets is a Combination Patent which weights your stakes .
Report Lay Low August 22, 2018 2:27 PM BST
Yes, I remember this bet when I growing up the North East in the 50s. It was called an "up and down double drop". A 1 shilling up and down double drop was  written as  as "1/- XXXDD"  underneath 2 selections in different races. It cost 2 shilling as there were 2 chances of winning. My Dad told me that it was called a cross bet because it was cross between a single and a double. It is interesting read about the regional variations of this bet.
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