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Bookmaker posts £820m loss and warns crackdown will have long-term consequences
William Hill blamed the government’s clampdown on (FOBTs) as it warned that up to 900 betting shops could close, putting 4,500 jobs at risk.
The bookmaker reported a loss of £820m in the first six months of the year, as the decision to slash maximum stakes on FOBTs from £100 to £2 forced it to record a £915m accounting charge. Stripping out the one-off cost, it made a £96m profit, down 13% on last year.
The bookmaker warned that the curbs on FOBTs, which the government described as a “social blight”, would reduce its high street revenues by up to 45%, rendering 38% of its shops unprofitable.
It predicted costs of up to £60,000 per shop closure, or more than £50m, with operating profits likely to decrease by up to £100m a year. Each bookmaker employs about five staff, meaning about 4,500 jobs are at risk if 900 shops close.
The gloomy prognosis sent shares in the bookmaker sliding, closing down more than 8% at 287p, the biggest faller on the FTSE 350 on Friday.
But William Hill said it had been encouraged by its nascent US operation, which has been growing fast since the supreme court overturned a longstanding ban on sports betting earlier this year.
With William Hill’s UK network of high street bookmakers set to shrink, its chief executive, Philip Bowcock, said the company’s US operation could surpass its domestic business. “In time, yes, depending on regulation, our US business could be bigger than the UK,” he said. “The US population is seven times that of the UK and they like to gamble more, I think. Gambling is seen as part of everyday life, you’re not a social pariah if you enjoy it.”
William Hill announced plans for further expansion in the US, where states are drawing up gambling regulations, mostly demanding that gambling firms do deals with casinos if they want to enter the market.
The firm has already struck sports betting deals with 11 casinos in Mississippi and one in West Virginia, giving it a presence in six states, with discussions taking place in 14 more.
Bowcock said he believed William Hill was better placed to conquer the US than rivals such as Ladbrokes’ owner GVC, which announced a tie-up with casino owner MGM Resorts earlier this week.
He refused to be drawn on whether certainty about FOBTs and US sports betting could trigger a consolidation in which William Hill becomes a buyer or a target, but admitted that “everybody is talking to everybody.
Ivor Jones, an analyst at broker Peel Hunt, said the company was seizing its US opportunity because it has to, with its UK retail business “on life support”. He said: “William Hill is one player among many which hope to profit from the US sports betting market as it develops.
“We forecast a period of intense and expensive competition as new states regulate and success with regulation [multiple states regulating quickly] will lead to a higher spike in competition and startup losses. It will be hard to know the right time to buy into William Hill’s US story, but we are sure this isn’t it.”
The company was fined £6.2m by the Gambling Commission in February for failing to protect customers and prevent money laundering.
It said it was restructuring its compliance functions and closing a number of customer accounts, which could affect its second-half performance. The regulator had found that 10 customers were able to deposit money linked to criminal offences.
William Hill blamed the government’s clampdown on (FOBTs) as it warned that up to 900 betting shops could close, putting 4,500 jobs at risk.
The bookmaker reported a loss of £820m in the first six months of the year, as the decision to slash maximum stakes on FOBTs from £100 to £2 forced it to record a £915m accounting charge. Stripping out the one-off cost, it made a £96m profit, down 13% on last year.
The bookmaker warned that the curbs on FOBTs, which the government described as a “social blight”, would reduce its high street revenues by up to 45%, rendering 38% of its shops unprofitable.
It predicted costs of up to £60,000 per shop closure, or more than £50m, with operating profits likely to decrease by up to £100m a year. Each bookmaker employs about five staff, meaning about 4,500 jobs are at risk if 900 shops close.
The gloomy prognosis sent shares in the bookmaker sliding, closing down more than 8% at 287p, the biggest faller on the FTSE 350 on Friday.
But William Hill said it had been encouraged by its nascent US operation, which has been growing fast since the supreme court overturned a longstanding ban on sports betting earlier this year.
With William Hill’s UK network of high street bookmakers set to shrink, its chief executive, Philip Bowcock, said the company’s US operation could surpass its domestic business. “In time, yes, depending on regulation, our US business could be bigger than the UK,” he said. “The US population is seven times that of the UK and they like to gamble more, I think. Gambling is seen as part of everyday life, you’re not a social pariah if you enjoy it.”
William Hill announced plans for further expansion in the US, where states are drawing up gambling regulations, mostly demanding that gambling firms do deals with casinos if they want to enter the market.
The firm has already struck sports betting deals with 11 casinos in Mississippi and one in West Virginia, giving it a presence in six states, with discussions taking place in 14 more.
Bowcock said he believed William Hill was better placed to conquer the US than rivals such as Ladbrokes’ owner GVC, which announced a tie-up with casino owner MGM Resorts earlier this week.
He refused to be drawn on whether certainty about FOBTs and US sports betting could trigger a consolidation in which William Hill becomes a buyer or a target, but admitted that “everybody is talking to everybody.
Ivor Jones, an analyst at broker Peel Hunt, said the company was seizing its US opportunity because it has to, with its UK retail business “on life support”. He said: “William Hill is one player among many which hope to profit from the US sports betting market as it develops.
“We forecast a period of intense and expensive competition as new states regulate and success with regulation [multiple states regulating quickly] will lead to a higher spike in competition and startup losses. It will be hard to know the right time to buy into William Hill’s US story, but we are sure this isn’t it.”
The company was fined £6.2m by the Gambling Commission in February for failing to protect customers and prevent money laundering.
It said it was restructuring its compliance functions and closing a number of customer accounts, which could affect its second-half performance. The regulator had found that 10 customers were able to deposit money linked to criminal offences.
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As someone who works in the industry, I can sate that there are many shops whose OTC T/O far exceeds Fobt T/O !
especially during the football season and tends to be, the further north you go the more OTC beats FOBTS t/o
Within a 3 mile radius of me (South East London), in the last 2 years out of 20 shops there are 11 left. I can see that going down to 5 or 6 when the fobt limit comes into play.
Not a problem with that S B, just don't like the c rap P B's coming out with !
the way they are talking is as if FOBTs have been banned entirely, I haven't been in a bookies for years, not since FOBTs came in, but I don't imagine most players are staking more than £2 per spin anyway
and surely the problem gamblers will look for other ways to hand over their cash?
I have absolutely no sympathy for the major bookies, they forgot how to be bookmakers and became casinos instead. It's about time they went back to what they were originally, start taking some proper bets
and surely the problem gamblers will look for other ways to hand over their cash?
I have absolutely no sympathy for the major bookies, they forgot how to be bookmakers and became casinos instead. It's about time they went back to what they were originally, start taking some proper bets
How the exceptional charges total breaks down in light of anticipated loss of FOBT income
£m Description
680.7 Intangible assets - goodwill
151.5 Intangible assets - licence value
38.6 Land & buildings
12.0 Fixtures, fittings & equipment
882.8
intangibles written off dont affect the business in any way except maybe from a creditors perspective, and i dont think this affects their tax either, but i may be wrong
£m Description
680.7 Intangible assets - goodwill
151.5 Intangible assets - licence value
38.6 Land & buildings
12.0 Fixtures, fittings & equipment
882.8
intangibles written off dont affect the business in any way except maybe from a creditors perspective, and i dont think this affects their tax either, but i may be wrong
Sack Philip Bowcock (PB) and get someone who knows the bookmaking business. April 2020 is more than sufficient time for the head henchos to formulate a new business model that reflects the activities of a bookmaker, and not a casino.
The present high street bookies do not produce anything or contribute to society in general - they are the blood suckers of fobt addicts; worse come to worse close the lot of them. Punters do not need them as the internet can more than able to cater or absorb the excess a activities generated should (900 x 4 x 5) shops closures/staff unemployment materialise.
The present high street bookies do not produce anything or contribute to society in general - they are the blood suckers of fobt addicts; worse come to worse close the lot of them. Punters do not need them as the internet can more than able to cater or absorb the excess a activities generated should (900 x 4 x 5) shops closures/staff unemployment materialise.
Thanks Charlton - Interesting! - It seems that they have taken a worst case scenario, perhaps in the hope that this may deflect criticism on what is a poor underlying performance unrelated to fobt's.
i think the essence of this write off is something like "we believed our business was worth £1bn and now we think its worth £200m". the people most interested in that will be their bondholders. unfortunately for shareholders i dont think these losses are tax deductible.
and indeed it does show, as many posters have commented below, that hills are not a bookmaker, they are a casino
and indeed it does show, as many posters have commented below, that hills are not a bookmaker, they are a casino
impossible with all due respect there is a generation, although an ever depleting generation who still use them every day of every week because they will never use the internet to gamble. to close them all is not the answer imho
let them close the ones that need closing because they arent financially viable. they arent all hell holes, there are still some pretty decent shops out there.
let them close the ones that need closing because they arent financially viable. they arent all hell holes, there are still some pretty decent shops out there.
the dealer
the corals shops seem to be run on shoestring most shops are single man most of the day.
how is hills.
regards
ronnie
the corals shops seem to be run on shoestring most shops are single man most of the day.
how is hills.
regards
ronnie
most still get 2 for some part of the day(5 hours roughly) the problem in most places is staffing them due to lack of staff. most of the experienced managers went after the restructure.last month was the last of the pay supplement on affected managers wages , so many looking at anything from a £4K to £10K drop in wages, so i imagine a few more will go shortly
in the modern world with online betting and massive competition it always seemed crazy that there were more betting shops than ever before. I know people are losing jobs but this needed to happen, and the online betting boom has seen many jobs created elsewhere.
i totally agree the blob and many will close but in all honesty the majority shouldnt be there anyway. the were opened under the sign of a betting shop but were really only mini arcades
they lose zero on the fobts
they lose occasionally on the horses
no wonder the coouunnts are whinging the useless wanxers
good riddance to all those arcades
they lose occasionally on the horses
no wonder the coouunnts are whinging the useless wanxers
good riddance to all those arcades
my point to impossible was merely that there is a generation of race horse punters who dont care about bog or promos, havent heard about restrictions but merely us them to place there leisure time bets, meet for a chat and a coffee, like they have for 30 odd years. they wont be replaced when there gone but there are still thousands of them out there
the dealer
went to work in a shop today said to the young girl do you think we will be busy she said no the bingo club do not come in on a Saturday.
looked at the figures 1500.00 a week on bingo.
the girl said she had to order some more DABBERS.
regard
Ronnie.
went to work in a shop today said to the young girl do you think we will be busy she said no the bingo club do not come in on a Saturday.
looked at the figures 1500.00 a week on bingo.
the girl said she had to order some more DABBERS.
regard
Ronnie.
but in all honesty the majority shouldn't be there anyway.
.. survival of the fittest, SAME AS IT EVER WAS !!!!!!
.. survival of the fittest, SAME AS IT EVER WAS !!!!!!
ronnie rails • August 4, 2018 10:13 PM BST
the dealer
went to work in a shop today said to the young girl do you think we will be busy she said no the bingo club do not come in on a Saturday.
looked at the figures 1500.00 a week on bingo.
the girl said she had to order some more DABBERS.
regard
Ronnie.
Is this a wind up and im missing it Ronnie....they do bingo in bookies now ????
the dealer
went to work in a shop today said to the young girl do you think we will be busy she said no the bingo club do not come in on a Saturday.
looked at the figures 1500.00 a week on bingo.
the girl said she had to order some more DABBERS.
regard
Ronnie.
Is this a wind up and im missing it Ronnie....they do bingo in bookies now ????
Aug 4, 2018 -- 8:49PM, impossible123 wrote:
Sack Philip Bowcock (PB) and get someone who knows the bookmaking business. April 2020 is more than sufficient time for the head henchos to formulate a new business model that reflects the activities of a bookmaker, and not a casino. The present high street bookies do not produce anything or contribute to society in general - they are the blood suckers of fobt addicts; worse come to worse close the lot of them. Punters do not need them as the internet can more than able to cater or absorb the excess a activities generated should (900 x 4 x 5) shops closures/staff unemployment materialise.
Couldn't of summed it up any better.
If people lose their jobs so what, the jobs are feeding addiction.
As above, not all shops are Fobt money driven !
Plenty that do well enough with OTC T/O.
The problem that Retail High Street Bookmaking has is the high fixed costs !
For instance, the cost annually of SIS & TRP is £30k per shop !
Plenty that do well enough with OTC T/O.
The problem that Retail High Street Bookmaking has is the high fixed costs !
For instance, the cost annually of SIS & TRP is £30k per shop !
So are we to believe as the Government hope and the bookies want us to believe, that everyone who is addicted to these machines (in which I include those who play regularly within their means) will simply give up gambling overnight or drop to £2 a spin?
Some of those who want to play the same games will go on line but I suspect many will fail verification checks or have reasons for sticking to shops.
If they switch to horses and dogs since they have no interest in 'skillful' gambling they will pick presumably names or lucky numbers. Will the bookies then have the sense not to knock them back when they by chance hit on a 'live' one?
However surely the real holy grail would be to addict them to virtual racing on which no staking restrictions need to apply.
If I was a large bookie in the last few weeks before FOBT restrictions I would be handing out free bet vouchers valid for virtual racing only to my big players valid from the day the law changes.
Some of those who want to play the same games will go on line but I suspect many will fail verification checks or have reasons for sticking to shops.
If they switch to horses and dogs since they have no interest in 'skillful' gambling they will pick presumably names or lucky numbers. Will the bookies then have the sense not to knock them back when they by chance hit on a 'live' one?
However surely the real holy grail would be to addict them to virtual racing on which no staking restrictions need to apply.
If I was a large bookie in the last few weeks before FOBT restrictions I would be handing out free bet vouchers valid for virtual racing only to my big players valid from the day the law changes.
hal hopes they turn his into a hairdressers so he can follow his true vocation in life
Good morning sparrow, hope you and yours' are well.
I'm an R M, some will close, some will stay open.
The industry has eighteen months plus to formulate a new business model
I'm an R M, some will close, some will stay open.
The industry has eighteen months plus to formulate a new business model
^ Don't suppose it'll make much difference in tha cess pit !
Good morning, halcyon. I'm sure you will survive the cull.
This will upset you
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tK4DKyp_o7I
From a recent pre-season friendly.
This will upset you
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tK4DKyp_o7I
From a recent pre-season friendly.
Was working in Stafford the other day, and spoke to a Hammers fan ( who was at The Bescot ).... Premiership side much quicker thinking and, of course more incisive with their passing !
The high street bookies in their present form ought to be driven off the high street, period. I'd rather see the premises either being left empty or reused as a low rent business eg butcher, etc, and/or non-profit establishment of any kind, social or otherwise. But not one to pedal miseries exploiting the mentally and emotionally compromised who are naive and uninformed.
To hell with the present head honchos and paid voiceboxes who've and still are benefiting enormously from the proliferation of fobts.
To hell with the present head honchos and paid voiceboxes who've and still are benefiting enormously from the proliferation of fobts.
as someones already said, if you close them all you're doing is denying the homeless and the oap's somewhere to go to get a heat in the winter, have a p1ss and blag a free cup of coffee. that's what most have become unfortunately, so sad ...
I'm sure the blood sucking bookies will never close every one of their premises and some will remain open to cater for these old fogies who may be in need of company, warmth and some tlc as you've alluded to. But I'm not sure the present bookies staff are the right people who'd offer these comforts..they are employed mainly as custodians of fobt, and not equipped for humans with feelings.
hulk23 05 Aug 18 17:02
as someones already said, if you close them all you're doing is denying the homeless and the oap's somewhere to go to get a heat in the winter, have a p1ss and blag a free cup of coffee. that's what most have become unfortunately, so sad ...
If we really cared about these unfortunate people then perhaps we might oppose government cuts in services rather than worry about a few betting shops.
as someones already said, if you close them all you're doing is denying the homeless and the oap's somewhere to go to get a heat in the winter, have a p1ss and blag a free cup of coffee. that's what most have become unfortunately, so sad ...
If we really cared about these unfortunate people then perhaps we might oppose government cuts in services rather than worry about a few betting shops.
i saw a punter the other day in baldies playing roulette, backing 30 odd numbers £15 spin i think, pacing up and down must of been well down on his luck as he look really worried, went & came back with more money a few spins later his last spin backed 36 numbers and left 17 untouched, guess what 17 came in, this guy was about to cry, the sad thing is that people think its easy money, you win maybe £100 one day 5 days later youve lost the £100 and given back another £200 on top, you will still get the addicts even at £2 but it will take longer to lose
I went to a Hills shop on Sunday morning to pick up a placepot from another branch. Dude scans it and as Hills are with placepots they don't settle automatically they have to ring the shop of origin to get the slip settled and then they can pay it out. Dude said I can't pay as it is not showing a return, I say all you have to do is ring the shop, speak to whoever and it will be sorted in a minute and you can then pay me.
"I'm not trained to do that". I say you don't need to be trained to use the phone, just ring the shop and I'll be on my merry way.
He wasn't having it at all, I had to wait for the manager to come back from his break and ring the shop, 30 seconds later and I got paid out!! Beat that for bad customer service
"I'm not trained to do that". I say you don't need to be trained to use the phone, just ring the shop and I'll be on my merry way.
He wasn't having it at all, I had to wait for the manager to come back from his break and ring the shop, 30 seconds later and I got paid out!! Beat that for bad customer service
If we really cared about these unfortunate people then perhaps we might oppose government cuts in services rather than worry about a few betting shops.
i'd say both...they are in no way mutually exclusive
i'd say both...they are in no way mutually exclusive
Do not worry. Soon the banks would be downsizing and excess space used to generate new customers or businesses with free (posh) coffee, biscuits and public convenience - the old fogies with their relative wealth are ideal targets. Anyway, the supermarkets are already catering for the some of the displaced and lonely; the night buses are also doing their bit too.
As such, the existence of the bookies on the high street is debatable.
As such, the existence of the bookies on the high street is debatable.
well here we go just got in how was today normally a very quiet day Monday.the truth it was far from it .
it was bouncing ALL day could not understand it ,
a cracking day for total slips
a cracking day for slip stakes
a cracking day for fobts
and more important a cracking atmosphere, for some reason it seemed like the good old days.sat drinking a nice glass of cold Chablis thinking its been a good day.
but expect a lot of abuse on here.
have a good evening
sweet dreams
Ronnie.
it was bouncing ALL day could not understand it ,
a cracking day for total slips
a cracking day for slip stakes
a cracking day for fobts
and more important a cracking atmosphere, for some reason it seemed like the good old days.sat drinking a nice glass of cold Chablis thinking its been a good day.
but expect a lot of abuse on here.
have a good evening
sweet dreams
Ronnie.
I'd only ever seen Billy Bunters covering practically the entire board on FOBTs, but was in a casino recently and the Chinese seem to have caught the bug. Madness. Not even Antonida Vasilevna Tarasevitcheva spaffed her money in such an idiotic manner.
'ronnie rails', I hope your shop stays that way every day. Like most businesses some shops will do well regardless for various reasons eg good, courteous and knowledgeable management, location of shop, etc. It shows the head honchos of bookies were either not clued-up about their shops and/or scaremongering about the plight of their shops post fobt limit reduction.
As for the Chinese clientele in casinos they are totally clueless, and easy fodder for operators. The Chinese tend to play the roulette mostly; they do not know what the winning odds are; they just enjoy playing every number for the sheer pleasure of having chips on each of them. I believe it is a therapeutic exercise for them having slaved away in the restaurant and takeaway kitchens for long periods most days and evenings; very few learned and/or professional Chinese frequent the casinos, I firmly believe, from experience.
I agree, every cloud has a silver lining; one door closes and another one opens - it always does.
As for the Chinese clientele in casinos they are totally clueless, and easy fodder for operators. The Chinese tend to play the roulette mostly; they do not know what the winning odds are; they just enjoy playing every number for the sheer pleasure of having chips on each of them. I believe it is a therapeutic exercise for them having slaved away in the restaurant and takeaway kitchens for long periods most days and evenings; very few learned and/or professional Chinese frequent the casinos, I firmly believe, from experience.
I agree, every cloud has a silver lining; one door closes and another one opens - it always does.
Head office will have a big drop in staff as well when the shops close. As there won't be the need for as many staff covering Retail Support anymore as they won't have the shops to support.
Some shop staff will go
Some managers will go
Some BDM's will go as their clusters will be no more
Some Area managers could go as not as many BDM's for them to control
Some traders will go as not as many PTL calls coming through
Some security will go as not as much money swapping between shops etc..
Some marketing will go as not as many shops to push the FOBT's offers and comps anymore
I would imagine a lot of money will be lost by buying the FOBT's (Hills replaced theirs with much bigger and taller machines to try and attract more punters to them). I'm not sure if they rented them or bought them but who will want to buy these now in the UK ? The only way they could do anything with them is send them over to USA to go in their new shops over there ?
Anyway, as sad as all the above seems... and all the job losses that will occur... everyone of them was purely funded by the profits from the FOBT's... and from that there will be plenty of sad cases of people losing their benefits, wages, savings etc... alongside losing friendships, family, marriages and even in some extreme cases....lives.
Good riddance in my eyes.
Some shop staff will go
Some managers will go
Some BDM's will go as their clusters will be no more
Some Area managers could go as not as many BDM's for them to control
Some traders will go as not as many PTL calls coming through
Some security will go as not as much money swapping between shops etc..
Some marketing will go as not as many shops to push the FOBT's offers and comps anymore
I would imagine a lot of money will be lost by buying the FOBT's (Hills replaced theirs with much bigger and taller machines to try and attract more punters to them). I'm not sure if they rented them or bought them but who will want to buy these now in the UK ? The only way they could do anything with them is send them over to USA to go in their new shops over there ?
Anyway, as sad as all the above seems... and all the job losses that will occur... everyone of them was purely funded by the profits from the FOBT's... and from that there will be plenty of sad cases of people losing their benefits, wages, savings etc... alongside losing friendships, family, marriages and even in some extreme cases....lives.
Good riddance in my eyes.
So many paragons of virtue on here. Big bad bookies and their dastardly FOBT's.
Lets be honest here, how many of you really care if some mug does his nuts on these machines? Very very few i'd guess.
What really annoys you is the difficulty of getting a decent bet on with the High St. It's always been that way though. As soon as you show yourselves to be 'clued up' - getting on is difficult.
Bookies want a profit, we want a profit. Different sides of the same coin i reckon.
Lets be honest here, how many of you really care if some mug does his nuts on these machines? Very very few i'd guess.
What really annoys you is the difficulty of getting a decent bet on with the High St. It's always been that way though. As soon as you show yourselves to be 'clued up' - getting on is difficult.
Bookies want a profit, we want a profit. Different sides of the same coin i reckon.
Some traders will go as not as many PTL calls coming through
Is this such a big issue? My last attempt to get a price for a horse was total denial that they'd even priced the race up when most of oddschecker had done so.
Is this such a big issue? My last attempt to get a price for a horse was total denial that they'd even priced the race up when most of oddschecker had done so.
Even the Tories eventually came round to the idea that people losing the lot on FOBTs has a huge social cost.
Aug 7, 2018 -- 12:33PM, Blackrock wrote:
So many paragons of virtue on here. Big bad bookies and their dastardly FOBT's.Lets be honest here, how many of you really care if some mug does his nuts on these machines? Very very few i'd guess.What really annoys you is the difficulty of getting a decent bet on with the High St. It's always been that way though. As soon as you show yourselves to be 'clued up' - getting on is difficult.Bookies want a profit, we want a profit. Different sides of the same coin i reckon.
The point is the industry exists under the guise of wanting to/taking bets on racing via the huge media gravy train,bookies sychophants and paid advertising thieves which leads the public perception that a struggle between bookie and punter exists and that you can still win.
The reality for those outside the game or a celebrity is very different there is no encouragement to want more bets on the sport whatsoever and they know this whilst continuing down the same road,the same people are still getting paid and keeping their mouths shut.
Everyone wants a profit else what is the point but they want it all ways,they want free money from the clueless gambling addicts whilst underhandedly using racing as a loss leader without having to take any bets ergo they can't lose.
If the bookmakers suddenly decided to lay bets whenever people wanted them would people on here still agonise about gambling addicts?
Some still would I think there are many anti FOBT posters on here.
If you were directing the question towards me as you have before I'll repeat my gripe is that all are not treated equal betting wise and take issue with that fact,if everyone was treat the same owners,trainers,racing media,celebs etc. and there were clear disclaimers telling the truth about betting on racing e.g if a trainer backed a winner he'd then be restricted to pennies I'd be happy as all were being treated equally.
FWIW I don't class betting on horses gambling though many do I presume they aren't winners which will sound arrogant but I haven't heard of any horse racing punter who wins long term without working for it.
The difference between betting on horse racing and a FOBT is that over time the FOBT gambler will essentially lose which is risk free money to the gaming industry with no skill etc involved the odds are thus,whereas via skill,knowledge and discipline it is possible for a racing punter to win.
If you were directing the question towards me as you have before I'll repeat my gripe is that all are not treated equal betting wise and take issue with that fact,if everyone was treat the same owners,trainers,racing media,celebs etc. and there were clear disclaimers telling the truth about betting on racing e.g if a trainer backed a winner he'd then be restricted to pennies I'd be happy as all were being treated equally.
FWIW I don't class betting on horses gambling though many do I presume they aren't winners which will sound arrogant but I haven't heard of any horse racing punter who wins long term without working for it.
The difference between betting on horse racing and a FOBT is that over time the FOBT gambler will essentially lose which is risk free money to the gaming industry with no skill etc involved the odds are thus,whereas via skill,knowledge and discipline it is possible for a racing punter to win.
sparrow, I always thought it odd that to play roulette in 1989, you had to join a casino, wait 48 hours and then put on a jacket and tie but in 1999 you could just walk into a betting shop to do the same.
I differ completely with you as any transaction which could result in money lost is gambling whether it be horses or the stock market. Personally I couldn't care less who gets on and who doesn't get on with off course bookmakers and neither do I worry about betting shops although I would be concerned with regard to people losing their jobs. The serious punter needs to adapt to the changing circumstances and realise it's no longer 1990 or whatever.
Dave, I thought the same as both became legalised under the 1961 act.
900 shops? Guess they will be looking to shed about 1000 staff when FOBT's go then
for what its worth, i believe they will close shops that arent financially viable with the stakes at £2,why wouldnt they. between now and then and in fact its been going on for sometime, people are being pushed towards on line and self service betting terminals. many fobt players will simply move on line,undoubtedly there will be a big loss in profit but on line casino business will increase,they will restructure retail. staffing will be cut and savings will be made there. some staff from now wont be replaced. does this mean they will start laying bets to restricted punters, i doubt that very much. there is still a need for shops, there are still plenty making profit from other products rather than fobts. i can see many more self service betting terminals being introduced over the next few years and in time staffing costs will be simply a person,paying out punters and emptying machines and punters using online accounts in shop to place bets
If the presence of the majority of high street bookies is because of fobt then close the lot of these shops for all I care - fobt is pure evil. And whether the high street bookies take more bets or not does not bother me one jot either, but the relevant authority ought to ask why given the terms and conditions of the issuance of a betting licence these bookies do not/reluctant to take bets or more bets.
The bookies cannot have their cake and eat it,...take bets or have the licence rescinded; bookies can re-invent or morph into something else eg a butcher or an Ann Summers (AS), etc. Imagine Simon Clare voiceboxing for AS - what a sight to behold!
The bookies cannot have their cake and eat it,...take bets or have the licence rescinded; bookies can re-invent or morph into something else eg a butcher or an Ann Summers (AS), etc. Imagine Simon Clare voiceboxing for AS - what a sight to behold!
Survival of the fittest, same as it ever was !
Who, in our lifetime ever thought that House Of Fraser would go bump ! ?...
Adapt or die, simple's !
Who, in our lifetime ever thought that House Of Fraser would go bump ! ?...
Adapt or die, simple's !
Correct HD
shops made money before FOBTS and will make money after FOBTS.
shops made money before FOBTS and will make money after FOBTS.
Anyone say 35 or younger has no interest in studying form and getting an edge on horse racing, it's football betting first and foremost, then roulette. Horse racing doesn't figure to anyone apart from the old school punters.
Depends on what happens to business after the 2 pound limit comes in. Although i doubt 99% of those who use them just now have a clue or care about account restrictions
Aug 7, 2018 -- 3:03PM, sparrow wrote:
Dave, I thought the same as both became legalised under the 1961 act.
there wasn't any roulette in bookies - you had to go to a casino and follow the arduous process described.
The whole idea was that high stakes fixed odds gambling (roulette blackjack higher stakes machines) had to be confined to a casino because it was more addictive that horse betting.
Dave, I meant that both Casinos and Betting shops were legalised at the same time under the 1961 act.
I'm old enough to remember all this happening and you couldn't get a cup of tea in a betting office let alone play roulette. 
thay should of stayed with horse raceing in the frist place , i can not get 100 pounds on with em , i wonder if thay wont me back in there shop
I don't care about compulsive gamblers the problem is Arcade owners operating under the banner of Bookmakers. To be regarded as a Bookmaker a company should have to fulfil certain obligations...like taking a bet from anyone, without prejudice.
Never mind closing a few hundred shops. If they did that, there wouldn't be any shops at all.
Any entity which is not fit for purpose, best to exterminate or self implode, I say, along with the expensive head honchos entrenched on the fobt gravy train.
what is the fobt take out, read it was 3 to 5%. really that low? I guess they win turnover?
And probably still only have one window staffed and taking bets.
Mike Ashley to buy the lot.
i popped into baldies just to play roulette for about 15 minutes to past time, stuck a tenner in backed 35p on 8 numbers, 4 on opposite sides of the wheel, up down up down then about £30 up in the end cashed out, watched a guy next to me stuck £30 in backed every number bar the middle 6 numbers for the £30 stake, one of his numbers came in £6 profit cashed out, its morons like this guy is why bookies make huge profits , people do not understand odds at all
lord skywalker • August 11, 2018 1:04 AM BST
i popped into baldies just to play roulette for about 15 minutes to past time
its morons like this guy is why bookies make huge profits
i popped into baldies just to play roulette for about 15 minutes to past time
its morons like this guy is why bookies make huge profits
corals are running classes on how to pinch the William hill punter it is called KILL THE HILL.
sad and scraping the barrel
regards
Ronnie.
sad and scraping the barrel
regards
Ronnie.
smart operators don't care if all shops go .. never been in one for 5 years or more .. no need its all at your finger tips ..
big boys get .......SIS ........ cheap to continue not laying horses .. and dogs .. as its expensive for .. newcomers ..?? ..few joining the ranks now ...
fifth odds..a money spinner .. now .. quarter was bad enough with 8 runners .. that have very little going for them as Bookmakers ..... SHOPS ..ANY MORE ..
big boys get .......SIS ........ cheap to continue not laying horses .. and dogs .. as its expensive for .. newcomers ..?? ..few joining the ranks now ...
fifth odds..a money spinner .. now .. quarter was bad enough with 8 runners .. that have very little going for them as Bookmakers ..... SHOPS ..ANY MORE ..
punters used betting shops before the internet, the same punters are at an age that they will never go on line and will continue to use the shops until they are unable to do so. many young people have problems with controlling their spend on line and prefer to bet in cash in shops on football mainly.
if the shops dont pay they will close, the ones that still do will remain open. adapt or fail its as simple as
if the shops dont pay they will close, the ones that still do will remain open. adapt or fail its as simple as
Household retailers like BHS, Debenhams, House Of Fraser and even Marks and Spencer have either become defunct, absorbed by others or downsized thus bookies are no different especially if their head honchos are visionless, from outside the industry eg Mr Andy Hornby, and blinkered. These individuals will eventually run their entities into oblivion or become fodder for the others.
Soon it will be the turn of the banks that will be confronted with the necessity of downsizing, even their largest branches in big cities as more and more people prefer/do their banking online or mobile; like it or not this is the sign of the times, I'm afraid.
Soon it will be the turn of the banks that will be confronted with the necessity of downsizing, even their largest branches in big cities as more and more people prefer/do their banking online or mobile; like it or not this is the sign of the times, I'm afraid.
It wasn't the banks customers who decided to migrate to online, it was a push by the banks so they could slash their number of branches. Difference with comparing banks to bookies is that the banks had a vision, now they have got everyone online they will bring in charges to keep their profits healthy. As to the bookies being able to do anything similar - time for the head honchos to earn their pay.
I believe bank branches started to decline when fewer and fewer customers used them when the majority of services offered could be obtained and/or organised online instead of at the premises personally. And when an online bank like First Direct could do it just as efficiently and at a much reduced costs and also winning customers from others branch banking ceased to be a must or a necessity for most except the elderly and infirm - the decline of branch banking has set-in in earnest.
As such I think there will be a steady stream of bank branches downsizing especially in big cities or towns in the near future; the laggards would suffer the same fate as the retailers slow on the uptake or impending unavoidable change in consumer behaviour and habit.
As such I think there will be a steady stream of bank branches downsizing especially in big cities or towns in the near future; the laggards would suffer the same fate as the retailers slow on the uptake or impending unavoidable change in consumer behaviour and habit.
Bet365 sold their shop estate to Corals in 2000 ish......
THE REST IS HISTORY !
She had the vision did Mrs Denise Coates !
THE REST IS HISTORY !
She had the vision did Mrs Denise Coates !
Example 4 numbers from six New York Lottery 17,000/1 Bookie's...
25,000/1 on line !
25,000/1 on line !
Hal
hope you are well
the coates family sold the shops to corals to fund the online
corals paid well well over the odds 365 went through the roof
what happened to the shops corals bought off the coates family for a FORTUNE
I will tell you CLOSED
regards
Ronnie.
hope you are well
the coates family sold the shops to corals to fund the online
corals paid well well over the odds 365 went through the roof
what happened to the shops corals bought off the coates family for a FORTUNE
I will tell you CLOSED
regards
Ronnie.
Very well mate..
some of the head honcho's at Betting Firms are complete business imbeciles !
Hope you & yours are well too N m8 !
some of the head honcho's at Betting Firms are complete business imbeciles !
Hope you & yours are well too N m8 !
hal
I am not to bad but the other half is not to well, she has recently been made redundant.
then her health has not been good she has had a womans operation that did not go well and is not coping well so I wes a evens chance to be at the ebor for the week,
then on Friday her mother has a heart attack and is in corany care so I am a 10s chance to be at York.
I just hope and prey there get well soon
ronnie
I am not to bad but the other half is not to well, she has recently been made redundant.
then her health has not been good she has had a womans operation that did not go well and is not coping well so I wes a evens chance to be at the ebor for the week,
then on Friday her mother has a heart attack and is in corany care so I am a 10s chance to be at York.
I just hope and prey there get well soon
ronnie
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