Carlisle Bell 'Handicap' - 5 lb weight-range - 17 runners.

Prize money has made a lot handicaps very hard races to train horses for. Look at the Hunt Cup, around 10lb covered the field, was effectively a group race, with a few separate ratings.

It's the way these big handicaps have gone.

Not just the Prize-Money in the BIGGER TRADITIONAL Handicaps - such as the Hunt Cup, Stewards' Cup etc  ... But also the introduction of Ratings Band Entry conditions  - FORCING horses into separate Sections has created the scenario.

Today's Carlisle Bell is only worth £17,000 - But the ratings Band CEILING is 85 (87),  being a 66 - 85 Entry Handicap  - But  the lowest rated horse running is just 80, for example.

They have actually been upgraded. The Bell and Cumbria Plate used to be 0-80's.

The 66-85 means little. You can still run in the race rated under that mark, but under the new lowest weight rules you would have to run in the race off 66, even if you were rated 55. However you simply won't get in these races unless you are 5-10lb off top weight.

The Carlisle Bell is good money for a horse rated 80-85 though. Compared to the usual rubbish they have to run for in the grade.

Anything running that disappointed at York?

Nowadays lower weighted horses don't get a chance. I've suggested before that they should ballot for who gets a run,

I don't agree with that Oldgit1, if you had a 100 rated horse not able to run for an 80 rated horse it would do the race no favours at all.

They all pay the same entry money and should all have the same chance to run. This has been a bee in my bonnet for years and I had a letter in the old Handicap Book on it.
The poorer horses are subsiding the better ones.

Oldgit1,

Handicaps are there so the best horses run in them, any horse which is denied a run as it is outside the maximum number allowed, get their entry fee refunded.

That's like saying a max field in the Guineas is 20, 24 are declared and the best horse IE something like Frankel doesn't run and a 48 rated horse with zero chance for an owners day out, gets a day out. Absolutely ludicrous.

The poorer horses have more opportunities to run though. There are way more 0-70s than there are 0-95s for example. That's why I don't think a ballot system would be fairer than what we have now.

Like onlooker I can just remember the days when ther was somtimes a 42lb range. The first Ascot Stakes I was aware of was Trelawney's 2nd win. He was carrying 10-0 and,although I haven't got the Form Book, I'm fairly sure the 2nd was called Delmere and he carried 7-0  (although there might have been a pound or two overweight ). SOME of the bigger handicaps were allowed to have a top-weight of 9-7 but that was definitely regarded as a concession.
The gradually rising weights finished the careers of a number of jockeys who could do 7-0 or thereabouts.

Domino14. I don't advocate it for non handicaps. Do the ones not getting into big handicaps get all of their entry money back ??
I loved the old Lincolns and Ayr Gold Cups with a big weight range.... and barrier starts :-)

Good effort, salmon. Trelawny was beaten by Delmere in his attempt to win the race for the 3rd year in a row. He carried 10-0, Delmere carried 7-2 (8 of the 19 runners carried 7-0). The previous year, Trelawny won it with 10-0, and the 2nd actually carried 6-7, with Bill Jesse's 7 lb claim. George Todd trained the 1-2 in both years Trelawny won it.

Just a brief glimpse (though good quality film) of Trelawny winning his first Ascot Stakes, easily (he only had 9-8), in 1962 (about 10 secs form the end of a 2 min+ clip of film of Royal Ascot - mainly royals etc)...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F1F-CA-JREA

I can't rely on my memory anymore.

I owned a 4-y-old in 1981 that ran 11 times in handicaps from 1m 3f to 2m 3f, at tracks ranging from Newmarket to Wolverhampton, and he never carried more than 8-0 in any of them. Even when he ran at Bath in midsummer a week after winning at Warwick, he still only had 7-10 and that included a 6lb penalty.

His last run of the season was in the Cesarewitch, where he carried 7-4 thanks to a 3lb apprentice claim - his long handicap weight was 6-8. Off his sort of rating, he woudnt even get near a Cesarewitch consolation race nowadays.

Oldgit1

Yes if you declare for any race and you are balloted out you get your money back, the only exception is if there is a consolation race, you have to declare for both the main race and the consolation race, if you got in neither you get refunded, but some owners and trainers only want to run in the main race not the consolation so will only declare for the main race, therefore if balloted out, they don't get refunded as they were eligible for the consolation race. It's the same for Ante Post punters. You bet a horse ante post and it needs 15 to drop out to get a run, if it's declared and doesn't get a run you get your stake back, but if it's not declared you wont.

All handicaps if you don't get in the race and are declared, the entry fee is refunded.