Elgin, Flat handicap rating.

On 101 at the moment which was what was needed last year, however with the changes that have been made for this year, it is most unlikely to be enough to see it get a run

There's a guy on the Bloodstock Forum who has all the knowledge on the Elite Racing Horses.

Elgin is rates 158 over jumps which suggests he still has a few lbs in hand on the flat.

Mick Fitzgerald has a perfect system for working out relative ratings,

I think it's you take the 158 jump rating and take away 57 which makes it 101 flat rating and looking at the above figures, looks like Fitzy's on another winner for the forum.

When did Fitzgerald say that, tyred?

couple of weeks ago on either ITV or ATR,

it was a different horse but he said that if you take a jump rating and subtract a number (I forget what number he plucked out of thin air) then you get the flat rating

The number he always uses for subtraction is 45.

Elgin was rated 161 when running in the champion hurdle so if we take away 45 then that makes Elgin a 116 flat racer,

handicap snip at 101 imo

I doubt that it works quite like that with the higher rated jumpers.

Rooster Booster was officially rated 170 hurdler at his peak. Which of these statements about Rooster Booster do you agree with?

a) he was a moderately-bred horse who happened to hurdle notably fast and fluently, or

b) he was a potentially 125 Flat horse who was insanely never given the chance to prove as much


Answers on a postcard

Especially one that has started flat racing so late in life. I like the horse but nothing he has done so far justifies 101 imo.

At a lower level, I had 25% share in Faustino who was a maiden on the flat rated 60 when Philip Hobbs bought him. He got up to around 120 over hurdles winning 4 times on fast ground but when Philip decided to try him back on the flat at Bath off 60, he was tailed off last.

Mick Fitzgerald and Elgin: the man has clearly lost his marbles.

That must be the highest rating ever awarded to a horse for winning at Catterick!

RoyalAcademy    Joined: 05 Jun 08
Replies: 1296 13 Jun 18 14:10 
Mick Fitzgerald and Elgin: the man has clearly lost his marbles.





Why, what did he say about Elgin?

   it's hard to read the ol' double bluff online, sparrow

Indeed it can be, duncan

TheAnorak    13 Jun 18 14:37 

That must be the highest rating ever awarded to a horse for winning at Catterick!
-------------

'Touch and go' - actually - A.

Italian DERBY Winner, and ARC runner-up WHITE MUZZLE - Won at CATTERICK, two outings before winning the Italian Derby... and then splitting Opera Hose and Commander In Chief in the King George and Queen Elizabeth - before being 2nd to Urban Sea in the Arc.


4:50 Catterick  ........... 21 Apr 1993

Richmond Conditions Stakes Class D
(Class 4) (3yo) (1m4f44yds) 1m4f OMS Good To Soft
1st £3,084.75
   
1st White Muzzle 8/13F  John Reid  Peter Chapple-Hyam    3-8-12    

Held up, headway on bit entering straight, led 1f out, soon clear, not extended

2nd 6l  Soul Emperor 14/1  Alan Munro  Michael Bell 3-8-10         
Tracked leader, led entering straight, soon driven along, headed 1f out, no chance with winner
--------

WHITE MUZZLE - gave 2 lbs and a 6 length beating to Soul Emperor - who was awarded an Official Rating of 84 for this race  - However ...

White Muzzle - comment: - Held up, headway on bit entering straight, led 1f out, soon clear, not extended  ...

Next time out - White Muzzle  beat Her Majesty's Spring To Action, who then Won a Newmarket maiden by over 3 lengths, and two outings later - Won the Bahrain Trophy, for which is was rated 102.

So who knows what the Official Handicapper - theoretically - No rating published before International Classifications, later - for that 'not extended' 6 length success.

the plus 45 that Fitz seems to mean is going from the flat to jumps.....are there any examples of the reverse, say where a horse started it's career in bumpers, then went hurdling and achieved around the 160 mark, then reverted to the flat and achieved a rating above 110?

That/your posted scenario/career is precisely what this  thread is about ...

ELGIN being, potentially, on the cusp of possibly doing that.
-------

Don't let the Mick Fitz references confuse you, though ... as it has done earlier to a poster who introduced it to this thread by guessing at Fitz's assumption - and getting it wrong, in the process.

The conversion scale is not something that the self-serving ex-jockey pundit has dreamt  up himself - just that he has shouted it  out on ATR as if it is his own idea ... which it most certainly is NOT.

The difference has been a long held 'rule of thumb' within racing circles and handicapping for decades.
----------

As for other horses ... "say where a horse started it's career in bumpers, then went hurdling and achieved around the 160 mark, then reverted to the flat and achieved a rating above 110?" ...

Probably - more likely over 100 Flat.

On a similar theme - There are Horses who Started in Bumper/Hurdles - and then achieved 100+ Flat Rating, even Listed Group Race Wins/Places

Off the top of my head - one for starters ...

MELLOTTIE - Started Bumper/Hurdles - Won Doncaster Mile and Ben Marshall Stakes.

Mellottie only ran twice over hurdles though after winning his 3 bumpers, and only achieved a RPR of 104 over hurdles....the next 63 runs of his career were on the flat.....so doesn't really qualify as an example....

and btw....I never thought for a moment that it was Fitz's idea ...just an agreed rule of thumb as you say onlooker.

I did preface my closing paragraph/example with ...

"On a similar theme - There are Horses who Started in Bumper/Hurdles - and then achieved 100+ Flat Rating, even Listed Group Race Wins/Places"

Ok

One for your requested format? ...

WICKLOW BRAVE.

possibly a few other Irish, aswell.

an excellent and fitting example..... 1st ran on the flat as a 6 year old....and finished 2nd in the Ebor that year off 102

cheers btw

Missunited.All she would have needed was some rain and she would have won the ascot gold cup.

Elgin has been rated at 101. As I thought from Mr King putting him on the Flat he has the Ebor in mind but needs to win again to get his rating up.

his mark of 101 looks pretty good after Saroog's win off 88 just now....

There's no way Elgin has the ability to win an Ebor.

an opinion based on?

Especially when the write up on it then said 'No chance with winner'

who he was getting 7lb from btw

TheAnorak    13 Jun 18 14:37 

That must be the highest rating ever awarded to a horse for winning at Catterick!


-------------


Didnt get his rating for winning @ Catterick. But i would imagine Youmzain would be the highest rated horse @ 125 to win @ Catterick

You can't say he's in the Alderbrook Royal Gait Sea Pigeon class that's for sure. The champion hurdle showed his lack of speed. But we knew that already.

Oi onlooker,

what does your and Fitzy's "rule of thumb" plus 45 (or whatever the number you wish it to be) make of Mysilv where the difference between the ratings was about 100

onlooker    13 Jun 18 17:21 
TheAnorak    13 Jun 18 14:37 

That must be the highest rating ever awarded to a horse for winning at Catterick!
-------------

'Touch and go' - actually - A.

Italian DERBY Winner, and ARC runner-up WHITE MUZZLE - Won at CATTERICK, two outings before winning the Italian Derby... and then splitting Opera Hose and Commander In Chief in the King George and Queen Elizabeth - before being 2nd to Urban Sea in the Arc.


Surprised you did not give Youmzain a mention Onlooker - he had an official rating of 125 and was second THREE times in The Arc to some real champions ......

should be rated about 116 so well in off 98 according to onlooker's system

layemall , that's why.

how that horse went off fav today only won a couple of class 5 races, the winner beat crowned eagle
LTO who is now rated 107