£2 for FOBTS max - WILL be

fort this forum is for horse racing not machines !!!!!

If you can't see how this how important this decision is for horse racing, then you shouldn't be wasting your time on the horse racing forum, Sweetnsour.

Agree with Posy's 13:03 post.

A decision to replace the 'lost' revenue might not be needed and will be a political move. The overseas aid budget is ripe for slashing - borrowing money to give away is absolute lunacy.

Delighted, hope this shows the bookies that People don't always know what's right for themselves and need more protection. Fact is walking into a bookies now is the equivalent of been in a Casino full stop. Punters are lambasted every second be it cartoon racing, numbers , Horse racing, Greyhounds, etc. Oh I nearly forgot too mention they do have a little sign saying Bet Responsibly which encompasses everything I imagine...

If the limit is substantially lowered to £10 or less how do we think this will benefit horse racing punters?

True wonky if you lose money on hosses its your judgement, every think else is a game of chance with the odds in favour of the house.

Joined: 24 May 02 | Topic/replies: 5,724 | Blogger: pixie's blog
If you can't see how this how important this decision is for horse racing, then you shouldn't be wasting your time on the horse racing forum, Sweetnsour. Wink

please enlighten me pixie !!!!

Sweetnsour, horse racing is funded mainly by media rights that the bookmakers pay to show live racing in the betting shops and to a lesser extent a levy on punters losses on horse racing. If Government slash the maximum spin down to £2, thousands of betting shops will be forced to close overnight reducing the revenue the BHA receive massively. Terrible news for horse racing if the rumours are correct and the spin figure is reduced to £2.

I would tend to agree pixie but many on here would argue that bookmakers would then have to take on more risk and stop restricting punters bets.

Pixie, the BHA have sold racing down the Swanee imo, bookies pay nothing on Cartoon racing , pop into any shop for a minute on your way into town and you'll see what i mean. The money that punters put into those machines never makes it way into racing...

workrider is correct

Why should the bookies pay a slice of their profit that they make on other gambling forms to horse racing, Workrider? Long are the days when punters walked into a betting shop to only bet on horses. Football is massive these days and so are the machines.

bookmakers ( i use that term lightly ) will never take any risks re horse racing they are a different animal in 2018 compared to 1998. they will just carry on with their machines their cartoon racing the dogs the football etc etc and us as horse racing punters will see no difference whatsoever

A major reason FOBTs are so addictive is because the margin in the houses favour is so small. A 2 per cent tax on all FOBT winning bets ( very similar to 2 per cent on turnover but easier to implement) would have been a major deterrent whilst at the same time preserving income to the exchequer.

Probably michael59 but at least they will be thieving less money from the vulnerables

michael59    24 Apr 18 14:07 
bookmakers ( i use that term lightly ) will never take any risks re horse racing they are a different animal in 2018 compared to 1998. they will just carry on with their machines their cartoon racing the dogs the football etc etc and us as horse racing punters will see no difference whatsoever



Precisely michael, which is why I can't understand punters on here going on about the machines it all the time.

*going on about the machines all the time.

Correct.

Yep, correct, Sparrow.

We can still take some degree of pleasure in their demise.

The obvious reason for me is it's completely wrong to take as much free money from the vulnerable and clueless whilst purporting to be bookmakers and not taking bets from genuine punters whilst using racing as a loss leader for extra thieving opening hours.

That's all very nice denzil, but would you still be bothered about the "vulnerable and clueless" if the restrictions were lifted tomorrow.

Well if I were to start frequenting LBOs again, I know I'd find the experience more pleasurable if I knew the riff-raff were elsewhere.

Anyone who uses an exchange is by definition hoping to exploit the vulnerable and clueless.

Not on a personal point of view sparrow which I've said before but they can't have it all ways which is how they've got it and want it.
Taking bets from genuine punters would balance things out to some degree so bookmaking returns to a scenario where punters can win and bookmakers can lose not just all one way.

I would prefer bookmaker punters on here to improve liquidity rather than return to betting shops.

screaming from beneaththewaves

| Topic/replies: 10,662 | Blogger: screaming from beneaththewaves's blog
Anyone who uses an exchange is by definition hoping to exploit the vulnerable and clueless.

Not at all I'm a backer only and only bet on here because I can't with bookmakers (like 1000's of others) and usually at shorter odds than I otherwise could have (which probably makes me clueless to a point).

Market makers would be far more beneficial to liquidity on here than the betting shop punters. For some reason they decided to drive them away though when they brought in the premium charge.

Believe it when it happens but fantastic news if it does,as usual plenty singing from their own hymn sheet and even worried about the demise of betfair!no chance of that happening,the gambling industry will still be a massive earner for the Govt from the big boys.
How any genuine punter can condone these machines is beyond me.

screaming from beneaththewaves    Joined: 30 Jan 05
Replies: 10662 24 Apr 18 14:25 
Anyone who uses an exchange is by definition hoping to exploit the vulnerable and clueless.






Don't worry yourself screaming as I would much prefer to lose to you than say William Hill.

Thank you, sparrow. I will send you a diary.

But my point is that whether you're a backer or a layer, and whether you put up a price or take one, you're hoping every time that the person on the other side of your trade is going to do their dough. And the best chance of that is if the person matching you is chasing, or desperate for a bet, or drunk, or a professional footballer. The last thing you want is to be matched by someone in control of their punting who knows what they're doing.

No different to a game of cards screaming. That's gambling like it or not.
I like the variety of the exchanges as in being able to bet place only for 3 or 4 places and laying. I spent the best part of 40 years punting with bookmakers and could never go back to that sort of restrictive betting such as the EW bet.

Whilst I don't expect bookmakers will suddenly change their attitude and lay any bet at any price I expect their business model will have to change drastically with the guaranteed income they have been so reliant on from the FOBT's for the last number of years.  Shops will close, staff will lost their jobs but those staff won't have to work single manned in a shop with Eastern Europeans getting violent as they lose massive sums each evening.  There will be no need for the shops to open at 7am in a morning anymore and no need for them to close at 10pm either so the staff that do stay on will have a much better working life as well.

Has today's news sparked some life into the bookies ?  Who knows... but I'm a £25 max person normally when PTL and they have never once offered me anymore than that on any football market when rang to a trader.  Can I have £100... no you can have £25 and the balance at this price, Can I have £5k... no you can have £25 and the balance at this price.  Today.... Can I have £1000 on Whitehawk at 3s as per your screen Mr Trader.... No.. you can have £50.

I have never ever ever in my years of a PTL Customer ever been offered £50.

Maybe the tide is turning.....

whats the latest on the slots games soon do 50.00 in on high roller slots.
regards
Ronnie.

How many play slots though ?  Roulette is the game that the majority play on the FOBT's... at £2 a spin, nobody will play them.  Why ?  It's very rare to see someone play just £2 on one number to win £72.  They will spread their chips around the board with various different amounts won or loss on each numbers.  For £2.. you can have 20 x 10p chips to win £3.60 on each one.  That's not going to tempt anyone really to a big win.  People say that the benefits crew will now ply their trade online instead, I don't think they will.  The majority of people on benefits are straight to the cash point as soon as they get paid at 12:01am, that's why cash is a big thing with the bookmakers appearing in the deprived areas to grab a piece of the pie.  If it was appealing for them to already play online then they would have done so already and the shops wouldn't be as big a business as it is.  Hills have the Quickcash option for punters to deposit into their accounts quickly and easily as well as withdrawing back over the counter the same day.  This might still attract punters, but they will soon be put off if they have to collect more than £100 and suddenly they are asked to provide photo id by "security" of themselves standing on their heads, with a picture of their passport next to them whilst reading page 14 of the Daily Mail..... oh and don't forget to include ALL the edges of the document as well.

Does anybody know of any professional FOBT players?
I know some people who are always winning though those characters have a habit of forgetting to mention losses.

wildcat
take it from me plenty play the slots
regards
Ronnie.

ronnie it can't take much out from the cash roulette boys. As wildcat says it's massive business. You keep watching cos half the shops will close.

Surely someone like ronnie would be an asset when shops close and his job will be very safe,it's the clueless deadwood that will be thrown out as they are little more than arcade cashiers anyway.

I should elaborate that ronnie (from what I've read on here) has been around in all betting shop circumstances and will cope better than most if bookmakers become bookmakers again.

Agree with Denzil... someone who is allowed to take an opinion on a bet and doesn't have to revert to the "well he's just had £40 on a Jordan 1st Division game that is on the coupon... MAKE HIM PTL ALL !!".

It will be Hills newly formed staff that will take the biggest plunge... they restructured the area manager positions only what, 12 months ago... those members of staff who have 8 shops in a close area will be no longer needed when they only have 2 or 3 on their books.

The greedy dogs must be wondering how it came to this for them? Surely they realised it couldn't last forever and surely should have taken some preventive steps years ago with their vast PR machines oiling the wheels of governments and made a voluntary deduction.
Wonder if they'll bother wheeling that bumbling oaf Lawrence Robertson Tewkesbury mp again or will all lunches have been cancelled?

Sorry should read reduction.

If announced by Government I'd be ecstatic. I do not care where or how the BHA find the revenue to fund horse racing as long as it does not come directly/indirectly from fobt. Maybe Nick Rust could do a sponsor eat, walk, swim or dunk; a culling of the over excessive run-of-the-mill non-entity horse racing programme that go into the night and weekend is long overdue. But horse racing must not be funded from the proceed of fobt, period.

I also do not care about the probable redundancies of staff in high street bookmakers arising from a £2 max fobt limit; these excess labour would probably be those unskilled and hired to facilitate fobt and not other sports eg horse racing. A retrain of these individuals will be productive for both future employers and employees. Similarly, I also hope the likes of Mr Andy Horny and Mr Simon Clare are amongst the excess labour shed as they have been on this gravy train for far too long. Hopefully a proper, decent and genuine job not associated with fobt or bookmaking.

The high street bookies could re-invent themselves as high street casinos, but fobt should not be housed in a high street bookmaker under the present betting and gaming law; they ought to be outlawed, and have no place in the high street s they are so evil!

Screaming , there's a new exchange opening with live video instantly showing the reaction of any  player you have just taken anything bigger than £100 off. Be honest it would be fun.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lvpwdUEINA

@Ribero1: I doubt whether the shareholders in any of the betting shop chains would have stood for a voluntary restriction on FOBT stakes, even to £20. The latter would have resulted in an immediate, short-term drop in the share price. (In the long term the share price would have recovered, of course, as investors realized they'd reduced the chances of the doomsday £2 scenario being imposed; but shareholders seem to have zero interest in long-term profitability.)

Since when have you had a webcam in my living room, mouse?

I thought it was zodie

A stake reduction to £20 would have resulted in mass shop closures too; £30 would have had little effect.

Fair enough, pixie.

Just a reduction of any size might have looked good enough from a public relations point of view to keep the anti-gambling lobby at bay.

To be honest it's become so politically toxic, SBTW, the government only have two options; Follow the Gambling Commission's advice and set it at £30, ignore the antis and continue to rake in the tax - not just a considerable sum but p1ss easy for them to collect too, or make the popular choice and become all nanny state and reduce the stake to £2, which in effect prohibits them altogether but will at last make this campaign disappear once and for all. I'm sure representatives of the big boys are on their knees pleading with government to allow loyalty card holders to play at £30 a pop and the rest playing at £2 but I can't see government ever agreeing to this as the antis won't go away if this were allowed so would achieve little.

The shock in the article is that Philip Hammond said he wanted the tax shortfall to be made up. If this is the case he can't squeeze it out of retail as that would put the boot in further and would enforce pretty much every betting shop to shut so he would have to look to on-line. This would be bad news for the on-line operators and punters alike as any significant costs will be passed onto the punter ultimately. Kenny Alexander of GVC must be regretting being so hasty in buying Ladcrooks/Jokes.

The irony is, the antis on here who consider themselves shrewd and not 'mug' betting shop punters will be far, far, worse off with a spin of £2.

Easy enough to solve the problem have lower stakes in betting shops i.e recreational numbers £2 or so.
Anyone who wants to play bigger can join a casino if they wish then no nanny state argument and the attached violence that comes with FOBT losers can be dealt with better in a casino environment.

ffs just get a move on & do it, sick of hearing about it now.

Yes, pixies. This is what the antis on here can't see: that in the eyes of everybody else we're all the same. Whether we play on Betfair, back horses in the shops, or do our cash in the FOBTs, we are all just gamblers in the eyes of everyone else. And with everyone else having got used to enjoying the extra tax rake since the introduction of FOBTs, then the rest of us gamblers are going to have to make up the shortfall.

And if in the new taxes destroy everything - shops, online sportsbooks, exchanges, the lot - well, it's for our own good, isn't it? After all, we'll still have the National Lottery, and that goes to good causes, doesn't it?

Yes most people don't know the differences between betting and gambling and all that's in between.

Exactly, SBTW, beautifully put.

So the genuine punter needs the machines to survive then according to some?
Well what a sorry state we are in.

Yes. The genuine punter now needs the machines to continue, because tax take from the FOBTs has convinced the government there's more tax to be had from gamblers overall. And if the FOBT players are no longer providing this extra tax rake, then the genuine punters will be expected to instead.

So yes. What a sorry state we are in.

All this crap about the government losing revenue is rubbish, not withstanding corporation tax and PAYE tax implication etc, if a punter doesn't spend it on a fruit machine forgoing the tax raised on betting, he could spend it on purchasing other things which in most cases has a 20% tax charge on it(VAT)

I agree, Llamedos. But that's not how Hammond sees it. And it's him (and the voters) who decides, not us punters.

I just put a tenner in a FOBT machine

And got out 8 quid in change

Whoes the daddy

And handed the awful shop staff a P45

A £2 FOBT stake would focus the bookmakers on re-modelling their businesses. 
These hideous inventions are a bane on our society. Hopefully any new legislation will see the back of them; and the ridiculous number of high streets full of bookmakers.
If racing's finances are dependent on these machines, I'd be very happy to see a reduction in prize money and less racing.

Can it get any worse £2 a spin max and now cannot back anything in Ireland with any confidence. What next?

When the 15% rate was introduced all the big firms agreed that their online
buisness would remain in this country.Every single one reneged on that deal
so the time has come to greatly increase the online tax rate.

Their current buisness model has nothing to do with bookmaking,nowadays it's
all about them systematically fleecing the weak and requires no special expertise.

It's crazy that the government license these parasites and settle for such a small cut.

shares going south.

The only people in favour of FOBTs are bookies shareholders. They don't give a sh!t about horse racing or the poor. They just care about their dividend.

No coincidence that the FOBTy bookies are the most likely to close/restrict your online account down. Must be plenty on here that have been given the bums rush by Mountains, PP, the Crooks and the Jokers.

protesters outside Parliament now for a rise from £2
https://www.racingpost.com/news/news/betting-shop-staff-and-mps-call-on-government-to-reject-2-fobt-stake/328971


Betting shop staff and MPs call on government to reject £2 FOBT stake
MPs Laurence Robertson and Philip Davies joined betting shop staff in Westminster
MPs Laurence Robertson and Philip Davies joined betting shop staff in Westminster
1 of 1
By Bill Barber
UPDATED 3:54PM, APR 25 2018
   
Betting shop staff were joined by MPs in Westminster on Wednesday to demonstrate against the possibility of the maximum FOBT stakes being cut to £2 from £100.

Holding placards, staff from Ladbrokes Coral, William Hill and a number of independent firms took part along with Conservative MPs Laurence Robertson and Philip Davies and Labour MP Chris Evans.

The demonstration was staged against the backdrop of the government's gambling review, the results of which are expected to be published in the next few weeks, including a final verdict on what level FOBT stakes should be set at.

The government's consultation set out a range of options from a £2 maximum – which campaigners against the controversial machines have called for – to £50.

The majority of the retail betting industry claim that should the government decide on a £2 stake it would amount to a de facto ban on the machines, leading to half of all betting shops closing with 21,000 job losses, as well as millions of pounds of lost tax revenue and income for racing.


Ron Hearn, Betting Shop Manager of the Year: "Betting and racing go hand-in-hand. It's not just betting shops at risk, it’s racing too"
Ron Hearn, Betting Shop Manager of the Year: "Betting and racing go hand-in-hand. It's not just betting shops at risk, it’s racing too"
Edward Whitaker (racingpost.com/photos)
Vicky Knight, who works for Jenningsbet, said: "We're talking about a 98 per cent reduction in the stakes, but we have lots of adults who want to stake £20 or £30 and that is an appropriate level in a highly regulated environment like a betting shop."

Her colleague Ron Hearn, the reigning Betting Shop Manager of the Year, added: "I've been a racing fan all my life. Betting and racing go hand-in-hand. It's not just betting shops at risk, it’s racing too."

Robertson said: "It was good to have such a turnout at Westminster. However, it was also sad, because those there, and many who couldn't be, know their jobs will be at risk if the government cuts FOBT stakes to a maximum of £2."

Newspaper reports this week have claimed a £2 maximum stake is looking likely, claiming chancellor Philip Hammond has dropped objections to the plan.

them placards, sigh, just sigh ..

Davies and Robertson,there's a surprise.
Someone should ask Davies if he has had any account restrictions,one of the biggest snide ew punters you will find.

The bookies have no shame parading and using their lowly paid high street betting shops staff to lobby MPs outside The Houses Of Parliament about the negative consequences of a £2 max fobt limit.

High street bookies are not bookies any more ie they do not take bets (they put restrictions instead) on horse racing, football, tennis, f1, rugby, etc, from recreational punters or followers of the sports; they are just the custodians of fobt(s), nothing else.

I'd rather see these unskilled staff lose their jobs (if so) than them "robbing" the "sick", the venerable and the addicted of fobt to feather the nest of the highly paid and no conscience betting executives eg Andy Hornby, and pr Simon Clare.

1.01 Fred bussed his staff down there at their own expense.

90% of the cash what goes in these machines is benefits money, funded by credit cards, or money from petty crime,

in my town anyway, lets get rid of a few shops and a few smug staff to boot

Only 3 mps out of 650 and 2 of them will expect payment of some kind in return.

Good point JML

I will ask for odds the staff will be getting petitions  to sign the customers up
in protest of the cut.
regards
Ronnie.

Ronnie--the last petition they organised is still fresh in the memory.

ended up them asking the same people to sign time after time.

jml
that was about 4 years ago
support your local bookmaker, sad to say not many local bookmakers left.
I still support my local bookmaker have done for the last 12 years.
have a nice evening
regards
Ronnie.

In claiming that half of all shops would close, the industry is implicitly admitting that there was a doubling of shop numbers solely to accommodate these machines.

If they have to close, then they have to close.

When the last petition came out I surprised and disappointed the young lad who asked me to sign by refusing to do so. He asked why. I said it was because his shop limited me to £10, win only, SP. Without a soupçon of irony he told me I could have as much as I wanted in the machines......

parispike

When the last petition came out I surprised and disappointed the young lad who asked me to sign by refusing to do so. He asked why. I said it was because his shop limited me to £10, win only, SP. Without a soupçon of irony he told me I could have as much as I wanted in the machines......

"I keep Britain gambling safely" says the placard...

Did they miss the bottom bit..

"By only laying £2.76 on a 6/4 shot".

The levels that this lot stoop to is beyond belief...

"Our shops are the safest place to bet" says the next placard...

Did they miss the next bottom bit...

"When I'm female, single manning late at night and some guy wants to smash the shop up because he's done his jobseeker's allowance in on the roulette".

Spot on Bettinghelp...

i dont understand the single person thing late at night, its just pure greed by the owners

one of the cashiers in my local baldies is so miserable, do they really treat their staff that bad, ive heard cashiers shouting down the phone in front of punters before now, they survived before fobts existed.

I live in Edinburgh, about a year ago I watched a girl , no more than 20 put £2,000 into the puggy, she did the lot in ,in less than 15 minutes , left the shop and came back 5 minutes later and stuck another grand into the same machine , did that in in ten minutes.  crazy punting .

she knew it was due a payout mate.

... came back 5 minutes later and asked for her last £5 on a 15/8 shot at Cheltenham. 

Referred to trader ...

punter gets benefit money from treasury, punter loses x amount in machines, treasury takes 25% from bookies, sounds like a good deal to me from the treasurys point of view

they  that's the government  should never allowed  fobs  in the first place...get a 2nd chance  to correct the mistake

they will still be there just reduced stakes, i think £10 should be a max, trouble is punters think that roulette is easy money but many cant do the maths like backing 3/4 of the board, they wouldnt back a threes on shot on horse racing would they .

i watched a guy 2 weeks ago playing slots, he was £600 down playing £2 a spin, jackpot came in still £100 down , still playing ,15 minutes later balance down to £300 odd and swearing at the machine, i liked fruit machines in the old days but these machines eat money for fun, old fruit machines was  just 20p a spin, sit there watch someone feed £40-50 in win very little then within £6-7 you win the jaackpot

so zipper you are prepared to pay increased taxes and NI to pay for the loss that will happen when they reduce the stakes

What next, drug dealers protesting out side parliament?

close all the betting shops

lord  your post means nothing to me   or the betting  public

Apr 24, 2018 -- 3:39PM, Wildcat Army. wrote:

How many play slots though ?

Good proportion - you would be surprised