Fox Norton favourite for Tingle Creek?

Mullins has left no doubt that Douvan is Tingle Creek bound and he always tells it straight.

Another thing i dont understand is why in an article by Lydia Hislop and another by Matt public school lad they both said there was no money bet antepost yet here we are with bookies wanting us to bet in advance at odds on in the Tingle Creek. You wouldnt think it was worth their going to such lengths to try to give money away on Douvan at slight odds on when there is nothing bet antepost. There again i suppose saying there is nothing bet so it doesnt matter having trainers paid by bookmakers for advance information as it saves reporters having to spill any gravy from their plates.

Sponsored trainers dont you just luv ‘em .. the bookies do anyway

The vibes on Wednesday that Douvan would not run in Saturday's Betfair Tingle Creek at Sandown proved spot on when the star chaser was not declared for the Grade 1 chase.

Ar Mad, Fox Norton, Politologue and Sir Valentino were the initial declarations, but the race was reopened on Thursday morning and they were joined by Ordinary World, San Benedeto and Charbel - perhaps due to the absence of the towering 14-time winner.

Douvan's trainer Willie Mullins said on Thursday: "Douvan worked very well at the Curragh on Tuesday. He cantered yesterday. He did another little bit early this morning and I wasn't entirely happy with him.

"Maybe he hadn't fully recovered from what he did on Tuesday and I decided not to declare him for Sandown. No decision has been made regarding when he will have his first run of the season."

The seven-year-old, whose only defeat over fences came in last season's Champion Chase at the Cheltenham Festival, was widely expected to make his comeback from a stress fracture suffered in that reverse in the Tingle Creek.

However, a number of bookmakers suspended betting on the race on Wednesday, following a surge of support for Fox Norton, who began the week as second favourite behind his odds-on Irish rival.

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Douvan's stablemate Un De Sceaux, last year's Tingle Creek winner, was also taken out by Mullins, although Sunday's Kerry Group Hilly Way Chase at Cork has been his aim for a while.

Declarations also came through on Thursday for the Randox Health Becher Chase at Aintree on Saturday.

Blaklion heads the 16 runners, which also include last year's winner Vieux Lion Rouge, but not 8-1 chance Gas Line Boy, whom trainer Ian Williams will reroute to the 188Bet Grand Sefton Handicap Chase on the card.

Tingle Creek (Betfair prices): 4-6 Fox Norton, 5-2 Politologue, 11 Charbel, 12 Ar Mad, 12 San Benedeto, 16 Ordinary World, 25 Sir Valentino.

Obviously not suggesting this is happening here but lets say in the future..

Lets say trainer A accepts payments from bookmaker B and the deal is a percentage of antepost profits.

Now lets say trainer A continually advertises his horse as on target for an antepost race and doesnt withdraw him until a day or two before the race to maximise antepost non runner profit for the bookie and increasing his own payout as he is on a percentage of antepost profit.

Surely if the BHA were to be intermediary of payments from bookie to trainer they would have to act and investigate relationships where such patterns occurred bringing betting on racing into disrepute.

Re bookmaker sponsored trainers

I wonder how many of those in the know have a lovely green book on the ante post market?

Those unscrupulous individuals with inside info of Douvan and UDS being absentee here, I hope all f you have a "wonderful x'mas"...and do not choke on the proceeds of the ill-gotten gain. Scums!

Thanks impossible, should be a great Christmas, happy Christmas to you and yours

If genuinely 2nd guessing Mullins/Ricci very well done and well played. Otherwise,.......

These things happen they Re not machines you know

Douvan despite this race was nominated as his target and backed here accordingly after a good report by his trainer I'd not anticipated he'd run, and I did not back him. But the choice of race for UDS ie a Gp 2 rather than defending his title here in a Gp 1 when sound is bonkers, and makes a mockery of the sport. I'd be livid if I was the sponsor or person in charge of marketing for the sponsor of this race.

I wonder if Mullins would be more forthcoming with the truth in the next couple of days and withdraw UDS from his weekend engagement citing 'low blood count', etc, as the reason because if UDS is not sound enough for this race - he definitely is good enough - he ought not to be running at Cork either.

I've yet to get over the fact what Walsh did to the well-being of Killultagh Vic just for the sake of winning the race despite the horse was sliding on his belly after landing at the last fence.

The owners of UDS are from Cork, I firmly believe...

They are from cork.uds should be in sandown.The tingle creek is one of the best races of the year usually.

Why on earth should owners and trainers make decisions on the basis that punters want to see the horse in a particular race? The bad weather may be a factor or it could be that they prefer to race in Ireland. I repeat that the fault lies with whoever stated that it was a likely runner in the first place. In a different sport, the BBC were ranting on about the Aberdeen manager and asking for an explanation from Rangers as to why he turned them down. Surely the only person to ask is the manager who might well like managing Aberdeen. What else do we need to know?

Everyone deliberately missing the point here? It is about price moves and announcements from bookmakers encouraging punters to back non runners with information from ‘sponsored trainers’ that is the issue.

Obviously nobody has a say where trainers send their horses other than the owners. We can criticise them if we think they get it wrong but it is their right.

UDS is the reigning champion of the Tingle Creek, and if sound he SHOULD be defending his crown in this Gp 1 race rather than a little known Gp 2 race in his backyard. I also believe UDS was declared at the penultimate stage as a back-up for Douvan should Douvan abscond, and Douvan has absconded (again).

There is no question UDS should be at Sandown tomorrow to defend his crown unless he is not fully sound and/or wound up. Utter, utter, utter disbelief from nearly every racegoer and/or National Hunt supporter and disgrace to this trainer and connections.

UDS should be at Sandown for the Tingle Creek.

Please tell me what rule tells you that any horse is obliged to run in any race. If the owner of Altior had chosen to run in class 5 novice hurdles and chases at her local tracks for his entire career she would have been perfectly entitled to do so.

So nobody is concerned about backing known (to connections and their bookie paymasters) non runners?

..and being encouraged to do so by bookmaker announcements off the back of information provided by trainers not in the public domain?

If its good for impossible123's pocket then its good for the game. If it hurts him financially then its bad for the game.The only racegoer who reacted with utter,utter,utter disbelief that UDS is not running in the Tingle Creek is impossible123, the nasty, hypocritical toerag.

Great time to become a bookie, expect loads more to appear over the coming years when corruption is allowed by the BHA.

Corrupt insider trading

I suppose all those who backed Fox Norton at 15s down to evens should surrender their bets.

It is universally accepted every trainer/owner of a horse, if potential permits, will run their charge at the most appropriate and highest grade race in their discipline especially one with a good chance of winning. The trainer of UDS was reported to have said UDS had remained until the final decs as a precaution in case something untoward happened to Douvan, and it had. Yet UDS was withdrawn despite UDS is the reigning champion of the race, and is sound!

sageform, with due respect if you cannot see the obvious importance of why UDS should be at Sandown for a Gp 1 race to defend his Tingle Creek crown rather than a little known Gp 2 race elsewhere then the gulf between us on this unsatisfactory predicament created by Mullins I'd like to agree to disagree and leave it at that; there is no point discussing/debating further if the goalpost is constantly being changed by one side. My understanding is in a debate there are always remits attached and conditions agreed prior.

I have said several times already that confident statements by trainers and other connections about plans should be accurate at the time they are made. If they just enter and keep quiet about plans then that is fine by me.

impossible, if you feel you have been misled by trainers statements then I agree. If you think that any owner or trainer has a "responsibility" to run in any particular race then I disagree. More horses have been ruined by running either above their class or when not quite ready than by any other factor so lets leave it at that.