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Hi. Wondered whether anyone had any stats on how horses have fared that have run in the English St Leger and the Arc in the same season.
Thanks for any help.
Thanks for any help.
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No stats but in recent years to my recollection leger winners have fared poorly
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Nijinsky won at Doncaster in 1970 and should have won in Paris but it wasn't one of lesters finest moments he was beaten by a very narrow margin,in 87 reference point had won at Doncaster and was beaten by trampolino in a very fast time,in 81 shergar would have won the arc but wrongly ran in the st leger which was his last ever race.
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The 94 st leger winner moonax ended up getting beaten over hurdles at Huntingdon,Leicester and Ludlow,so it would be fair to say he would have struggled in the arc.
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In 83 sun princess won the st leger and was beaten only a length in Paris not getting as clear a run as all along willie carson later stated if she had ever learnt to settle she would have been the best he ever ridden.
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Kingston Hill finshed 4th behind Treve, Flintshire (finally got his firm ground Arc) and Tahgrooda.
Arguably quite strong form. My feeling is that Chantilly is not everyone's cup of tea...especially with the amount of racing they now have on the track because of the rebuilding work. A tough no nonsense who can grind it out will have more success that at Longchamp where the classier, speedier types will prevail. |
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You likely need a good price on a Leger winner in the Arc. Some years the winner is little better than a Group 3 horse. But I think Capri is above average won the Irish Derby and a good quality Leger. Would have a big chance if Enable "doesn't turn up "
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I stand open to correction because I've only had a quick look at the Arc winners but I THINK the only horse to win the English St Leger and the Arc was Ballymoss and he did it in different seasons.
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Salmon Spray is correct; Ballymoss is the only horse to have won both races and he captured the Arc as a 4yo.
As mentioned Nijinsky came closest to completing the double but several Leger winners have run honourable races in defeat in the Arc... in addition to Sun Princess and Kingston Hill these include: Crow (2nd) Dunfermline (4th) Snurge (3rd) Toulon (4th) User Friendly (2nd) In addition it’s worth mentioning that 1977 Leger runner-up Alleged went on to score in Paris (the race providing 1st and 4th that year) whilst other Leger winners Milan and Conduit bypassed the Arc but showed top class form at the Breeders Cup. Think the most interesting conclusion you can draw from the above is that all those that went on to run well in the Arc had shown class form at 12f prior to winning the Leger - something that applies to Capri. |
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Ribocco went close in '67. He won the Leger (and Irish Derby) and was beaten a neck and and a short head when 3rd in the Arc, though with a length and a half covering the first 6, it probably wasn't a great running. The horse who was 2nd, Salvo, had been a neck in front of Ribocco when they were 2nd and 3rd in the KG at Ascot, but Busted had beaten them an easy 3 lengths. Busted won the Prix Foy in his Arc warm up, but sustained an injury soon afterwards and never ran again.
Ribocco's brother, Ribero, also won the Irish Derby and Leger, and went for the Arc, but was kicked at the start, and finished unplaced, but he had Vaguely Noble to beat, so almost certainly wouldn't have won anyway. |
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Good call Mathew with alleged (dual arc winner)it's a shame you have only made 3 post in 17 years .
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yeah good post. Also backing up that stayers can go close is Ardross beaten a head.
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Levmoss actually won it in 1969 after winning the Ascot Gold Cup and the Prix Du Cadran. Westender,another Gold Cup winner,was 2nd was he not in this millenium.
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Probably stating the obvious but regardless of the 2f difference in trip, it's a very different test.
The Longchamp Arc = right handed, tight bends, pace = slow slow go. As opposed to Doncasters' left handed, wide open strips where they often go a pace. Of course, you've got to stay in the Arc but you also need a decent change of gear which probably means most "stayers" find one or two too quick. |
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Moonax was an Interesting Horse
 On his day Round Longchamp who Knows , Just looked at his form Horses for Courses Never ran bad race round Longchamp  Forgot he ended up over Hurdles  |
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The Arc is without doubt harder to win than the English derby imo. I hope Enable has a smooth passage from stall 2. Im not a backer at evens but I cant bring myself to back any other horse in the race.
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Ryan Moore seems to think Idaho as hes got older prefers going right handed. I would luv to see Idaho go 1m4f on a straight track no turns.
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ATR's Matthew Taylor?
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its a big price today capri.
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my only worry for Capri is that it's not much of a rest since the St Leger, the form of that race looks the best for years and Capri is more of a 1m 4fg horse rather than a stayer. Also there are not many in the field with decent form on softer ground, I think the 20/1 is a tempting e/w bet for a horse that can scrap it out at the end of a race
my 2 are Cloth of Stars and Capri, both decent e/w bets |
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I would certainly rather have Capri than Winter given the ground and distance. It is a bit near to the Leger though as you say.
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